Petition against VAT on health foods

Montgolfier · 23-06-2014 10:08pm

Darragh O'Briain said in regards to herbal medicine " they took all the herbs that worked and called them drugs and what ever was left was called herbal medicine"
Thought it was apt.

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 8:08am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Yours was the first comment that was antagonistic when you started on about class A drugs after misunderstanding a poster's comments.

In responding to a poster who blatantly does not have a lot of store in health food, and another who called for a tax on it, you claim I misunderstood them and should have wasted my time explaining the matter to them when they clearly have their minds made up? really?

If I'm to sign a petition, I'd like to know the argument in favour of signing it.

If you don't want to explain the reason you're posting a link to a petition, then why bother?

I'm not trying to have a go at you but I do think you could maybe explain what it means by health foods if you believe in the rationale for the petition.

I agree the petition wording could have been more explicit but it didn't take a lot of efort to understand it all the same. It mentions teas, ok.
Herbal teas are one way of taking herbal medicine - tea because infusion works best with some herbs and a lot of people find the most palatable and easy to take in tea form, so logically without even needing to open google, it must have been clear that it is already a tax on herbal medicine? It says very clearly on the petition page that it will affect many people with common conditions like arthritis..? that's fairly clear i think. Not difficult. By all means do a Boards.ie anonymous troll on it and drag the issue off on a tangent by stating the obvious until the OP has to use the Ignore button.

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 8:10am

Montgolfier wrote: »

Darragh O'Briain said in regards to herbal medicine " they took all the herbs that worked and called them drugs and what ever was left was called herbal medicine"
Thought it was apt.

A good joke but not true, hopefully you do not take darragh o briains jokes entirely literally

Alf Veedersane · 24-06-2014 8:20am

FullblownRose wrote: »

I agree the petition wording could have been more explicit but it didn't take a lot of efort to understand it all the same. It mentions teas, ok.
Herbal teas are one way of taking herbal medicine - tea because infusion works best with some herbs and a lot of people find the most palatable and easy to take in tea form, so logically without even needing to open google, it must have been clear that it is already a tax on herbal medicine? It says very clearly on the petition page that it will affect many people with common conditions like arthritis..? that's fairly clear i think. Not difficult. By all means do a Boards.ie anonymous troll on it and drag the issue off on a tangent by stating the obvious until the OP has to use the Ignore button.

If it's limited to teas/herbal infusions then your following quote is misleading:

extra VAT would be a huge deterrent to many people who want to purchase health foods and herbal treatments to improve their own health and prevent illness

'Teas' / herbal infusions are now akin to 'health foods'?

And I'm the troll?

Let me tell you where I am...

I'm out.

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 8:29am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If it's limited to teas/herbal infusions then your following quote is misleading:

'Teas' / herbal infusions are now akin to 'health foods'?

And I'm the troll?

(I wasn't actually referring to you, I was just responding to you)

Let me tell you where I am...

I'm out.

You have quite a knack for misunderstanding, yourself. That was an example of a bit of information that WAS given on the petition link.

Information that would cause concern for anyone who takes teas, I am not one of them, usually. When I first read it though I decided that eople who use them to hel with the conditions the petition makers mentioned would want to know that there will be a tax iposed on them.

They are the people who will have quietly signed it or sought more official info and then signed it, and carried on with life instead of mewling to be spoon fed information and making uneccessary remarks.

I do not know what ''I'm out means'' but I hope it's somewhere pleasant. Have a marv'llous day.

Alf Veedersane · 24-06-2014 8:34am

I will.

I'm off to get some health foods Class A drugs.

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 8:40am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I will.

I'm off to get some health foods Class A drugs.

Good man. Or woman.

Snake · 24-06-2014 8:43am

FullblownRose wrote: »

I agree the petition wording could have been more explicit but it didn't take a lot of efort to understand it all the same. It mentions teas, ok.
Herbal teas are one way of taking herbal medicine - tea because infusion works best with some herbs and a lot of people find the most palatable and easy to take in tea form, so logically without even needing to open google, it must have been clear that it is already a tax on herbal medicine? It says very clearly on the petition page that it will affect many people with common conditions like arthritis..? that's fairly clear i think. Not difficult. By all means do a Boards.ie anonymous troll on it and drag the issue off on a tangent by stating the obvious until the OP has to use the Ignore button.

If I'm sick I'm not going to reach for my box of bewleys I'm going to reach for my box of Panadol, because I'm rational person who knows undoubtly medicine will fix me, tea will make me urinate.

Arthur Beesley · 24-06-2014 8:45am

FullblownRose wrote: »

Hi all,

I think this extra VAT would be a huge deterrent to many people who want to purchase health foods and herbal treatments to improve their own health and prevent illness,

if you agree and would like to help to stop this from hapening please consider signing the petition :

<snip>

What extra VAT?

coffee_cake · 24-06-2014 8:57am

Tea isn't a food

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 9:00am

GrayFox208 wrote: »

If I'm sick I'm not going to reach for my box of bewleys I'm going to reach for my box of Panadol, because I'm rational person who knows undoubtly medicine will fix me, tea will make me urinate.

That's your prerorgative

I know rationally what works for me, and it's not important whether that's panadol, or a tea or something else. panadol is also probably cheaper unless you harvest and dry your own herbal alternative (meadowseet or willow bark or something) rather than paying for it pre packaged. The herbs are someties taken in tea form but it is for a different reason (usually) to why people drink Bewley's.

The thing is, if you don't want to buy a tea or other item that isn't classed as a pharmaceutical medicine, fair enough, but many do and rationally they know it works for them or they wouldnt keep buying and using it. they do their own research and know what works and why and how it works.

If I took a panadol and someone spouted about how they dont reach for panadol because x,y,z, instead they do it another way, I would find them annoying, so would most people, so why be just as bad when someone choses an alternative method of pain management like a herbal tea or something?

If you don't care whether there's v.a.t added to health foods and teas then just don't sign it

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 9:01am

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

What extra VAT?

Apparently 23% VAT is to be added to the price of 'Health Foods'.

24-06-2014 9:26am

FullblownRose wrote: »

Apparently 23% VAT is to be added to the price of 'Health Foods'.

That's incorrect. You have apparently been mislead by a petition that is (mistakenly or deliberately) poorly worded.

Revenue are now going to enforce (not introduce) 23% VAT on "herbal infusions". This does not apply to tea, which comes from the tea plant. This is already a law, retailers had just attempted to get around it by mislabelling "herbal infusions" as tea

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 9:34am

28064212 wrote: »

That's incorrect. You have apparently been mislead by a petition that is (mistakenly or deliberately) poorly worded.

Revenue are now going to enforce (not introduce) 23% VAT on "herbal infusions". This does not apply to tea, which comes from the tea plant. This is already a law, retailers had just attempted to get around it by mislabelling "herbal infusions" as tea

So it is an existing tax solely on pre ackaged herbs for infusing in hot water?

I would not agree with it being enforced, so. And anyone who buys herbs for infusing in hot water at home probably wouldn't, either.

semantics.

Another pertinent aspect to consider is that health food shop owners livelihoods will be affected when people cant afford to buy these ''luxury teas'' as some people seem to see it. The health food shops I know of employ as many people as the local takeaway food restaurants and some of them employ more.

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 9:36am

28064212 wrote: »

That's incorrect. You have apparently been mislead by a petition that is (mistakenly or deliberately) poorly worded.

Revenue are now going to enforce (not introduce) 23% VAT on "herbal infusions". This does not apply to tea, which comes from the tea plant. This is already a law, retailers had just attempted to get around it by mislabelling "herbal infusions" as tea

They've been known as teas for a long time, so i doubt if it is a sneaky ploy by retailers tbh. even if it is that is not the main issue imo.

24-06-2014 9:45am

FullblownRose wrote: »

So it is an existing tax solely on pre ackaged herbs for infusing in hot water?

I would not agree with it being enforced, so. And anyone who buys herbs for infusing in hot water at home probably wouldn't, either.

That may or may not be true, but it most definitely does not mean "that any money spent on maintaining or improving your health will be taxed at 23%". That's what the petition claims, and it is utter and complete nonsense.

FullblownRose wrote: »

semantics.

It is not semantics, it is the entire core of the discussion.

FullblownRose wrote: »

Another pertinent aspect to consider is that health food shop owners livelihoods will be affected when people cant afford to buy these ''luxury teas'' as some people seem to see it. The health food shops I know of employ as many people as the local takeaway food restaurants and some of them employ more.

My local hardware store employs more than both of them. Should we remove VAT from hammers? That's a terrible reason to claim VAT shouldn't be charged

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 9:57am

28064212 wrote: »

That may or may not be true, but it most definitely does not mean "that any money spent on maintaining or improving your health will be taxed at 23%". That's what the petition claims, and it is utter and complete nonsense.

No, it's not. It was already clear that that refers to non prescription, herbal types of health related spending, so it's only nonsense if you are selective about what you read.

It is not semantics, it is the entire core of the discussion.

Whether the infusions are a tea or not a tea for tax purposes..hmm, no it's not, and it is a post to highlight the new tax/ newly enforcable tax, for thse who need to be aware. There is nothing that needs to be discussed, you might feel like discussing it but you're either antipathetic towards the tax or you ambivalent about it or a some posters have helpfully revealed, delighted about it.

So, it's simple, sign, don't sign.

My local hardware store employs more than both of them. Should we remove VAT from hammers? That's a terrible reason to claim VAT shouldn't be charged

Your hardware store is probably well placed to absorb the cost or loss of custom from these things. If it's a small local business like my examples then I hope it is.

FullblownRose · 24-06-2014 10:01am

The petition has been removed as petitions aren't permitted on this site apparently (which is fair enough)

and (Again!) this was not meant to be a pro/anti alternative medicine/health foods discussion.

I'm unfollowing the thread now and hopefully it has highlighted the tax issue so people to whom it is relevant can look into it if they need to.

24-06-2014 10:03am

FullblownRose wrote: »

No, it's not. It was already clear that that refers to non prescription, herbal types of health related spending, so it's only nonsense if you are selective about what you read.

Really? Directly lifted from the petition:

Irish Revenue are slowly but surely rolling forward with a policy which will mean that any money spent on maintaining or improving your health will be taxed at 23%

We strongly object to the proposed introduction of VAT at 23% on health products and Herbal Teas. A VAT on food supplements is effectively a TAX ON HEALTH.

You really think that has the same meaning as "we will no longer allow non-teas to claim the VAT exemption that teas have"?

rubadub · 24-06-2014 10:08am

FullblownRose wrote: »

if the information provided isn't enough, rather than sit there and repeatedly demand more information, go and get it yourself if genuinely interested.

I am genuinely interested and have searched numerous times for definitions of health foods, junk food, fast food.

I take it you simply can't find a good one yourself, which is not surprising, neither could I -and this is why I was saying it stops people dead in their tracks. If you cannot come up with a legal definition I don't know how people expect it to be made into a law.

tea drinks are 9% by the way
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/rates/decision-detail-04309.jsp

Tea Drink - Hot (Food And Drink For Human Consumption)

Rate:
9%

Click on this link for the current and historic VAT rates.
Remarks:
However, tea leaves, tea bags whose ingredients/contents are derived from tea plants are liable at the zero rate. Tea supplied with a meal is also liable at the second reduced rate. However, soft drinks with a tea flavour are liable at the standard rate.

El_Dangeroso · 25-06-2014 3:33pm

Montgolfier wrote: »

Darragh O'Briain said in regards to herbal medicine " they took all the herbs that worked and called them drugs and what ever was left was called herbal medicine"
Thought it was apt.

Although I get the point, I've always taken issue with that quote, no one tested every herbal medicine and then if determined valid, deemed it regular medicine.

Sometimes so called 'herbal' (so vague a term as to be deemed useless) medicine can equal or outperform medications in clinical trials. I have a couple of links in this space if anyone cares.

I'm for regulation of supplements and herbal medications (ingredients can vary and this can be dangerous), but I don't presume to think that anything that hasn't been discovered by pharma R&D is by definition useless.

nice_guy80 · 25-06-2014 11:02pm

it would make sense to tax healthier foods less and increase taxes on unhealthy foods

well, it would make sense to me.

Snake · 26-06-2014 12:41pm

FullblownRose wrote: »

That's your prerorgative I know rationally what works for me, and it's not important whether that's panadol, or a tea or something else. panadol is also probably cheaper unless you harvest and dry your own herbal alternative (meadowseet or willow bark or something) rather than paying for it pre packaged. The herbs are someties taken in tea form but it is for a different reason (usually) to why people drink Bewley's.

The thing is, if you don't want to buy a tea or other item that isn't classed as a pharmaceutical medicine, fair enough, but many do and rationally they know it works for them or they wouldnt keep buying and using it. they do their own research and know what works and why and how it works.

If I took a panadol and someone spouted about how they dont reach for panadol because x,y,z, instead they do it another way, I would find them annoying, so would most people, so why be just as bad when someone choses an alternative method of pain management like a herbal tea or something?

If you don't care whether there's v.a.t added to health foods and teas then just don't sign it

That was the plan, yeah

I also drink a box of tea a week.. Even when I'm sick.. It never made me better.. So.. Yeaaaah.

Snake · 26-06-2014 12:44pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

it would make sense to tax healthier foods less and increase taxes on unhealthy foods

well, it would make sense to me.

But it's not fair to force people to eat food that's healthier... I don't eat healthy food and I think you should sign this petition to have the VAT on unhealthy food reduced.

Petition against VAT on health foods

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