How should Palestine defend itself?

Hitchens · 31-07-2014 8:02pm

esteve wrote: »

Hamas are operating out of Gaza,a tiny strip of land that is closed from all sides. I think probably just getting your hands on any type of weaponry is difficult

difficult or not they're getting them from somewhere

JeffKenna · 31-07-2014 8:30pm

comongethappy wrote: »

That's my point.... Unguided do so little and are so innefective, Hamas must truely be stupid to consider it a viable tactic.

If they want to hurt the IDF they have to do something else.

Not sure what that means?

The way I see it, if a tank or APC is invading your territory, an RPG is a better option than an unguided rocket going nowhere.

If a drone has your land under constant surveillance & harassment a stinger missile is a better option than yet another failed rocket fired at nowhere.

Its like Hamas want to lose.

You're looking at this from a view point that both sides are equal. That's not the case. Israel are the most advanced army in the world, backed and supplied by the might of the United States. Hamas on the other hand do not have access to anywhere near the same kind of equipment. It's akin to cowboys versus Indians.

BlaasForRafa · 31-07-2014 9:38pm

comongethappy wrote: »

That's my point.... Unguided do so little and are so innefective, Hamas must truely be stupid to consider it a viable tactic.

If they want to hurt the IDF they have to do something else.

Booby trapping a UN health centre was certainly an effective tactic for Hamas yesterday, killing 3 IDF soldiers http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183542#.U9pA1PldV8F

Also abducting the dead bodies of IDF soldiers seems to be another tactic in this conflict http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183584#.U9qmbvldV8E

JeffKenna · 31-07-2014 9:46pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Booby trapping a UN health centre was certainly an effective tactic for Hamas yesterday, killing 3 IDF soldiers http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183542#.U9pA1PldV8F

Also abducting the dead bodies of IDF soldiers seems to be another tactic in this conflict http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183584#.U9qmbvldV8E

The key word there you mentioned is 'soldiers'...the Israeli army are killing children.

comongethappy · 31-07-2014 10:04pm

JeffKenna wrote: »

You're looking at this from a view point that both sides are equal

No..... That's not it at all....

If one side is stronger, the weaker side doesn't normally & willfully engage in tactics they know will fail & do nothing to hurt their enemy.

The IRA didn't bring Britain to the table in 1921 by sitting on Wicklow head lobbing rockets at Wales.

Hamas, militarily is so willfully inept, its hard to imagine its not on purpose.

JeffKenna · 31-07-2014 10:50pm

comongethappy wrote: »

No..... That's not it at all....

If one side is stronger, the weaker side doesn't normally & willfully engage in tactics they know will fail & do nothing to hurt their enemy.

The IRA didn't bring Britain to the table in 1921 by sitting on Wicklow head lobbing rockets at Wales.

Hamas, militarily is so willfully inept, its hard to imagine its not on purpose.

Well I can see your point. A lot of Palestinian people are totally anti Hamas.

Then again I suppose they are trying to build these tunnels which is the only way they could access Israel. I dunno, realistically what else can they do?

BlaasForRafa · 31-07-2014 10:54pm

JeffKenna wrote: »

The key word there you mentioned is 'soldiers'...the Israeli army are killing children.

The key difference is that the IDF doesn't use children as human shields whereas Hamas does.

esteve · 31-07-2014 10:57pm

Hitchens wrote: »

difficult or not they're getting them from somewhere

Of course they are getting them from somewhere, where else would they be getting them from?!

esteve · 31-07-2014 11:02pm

comongethappy wrote: »

No..... That's not it at all....

If one side is stronger, the weaker side doesn't normally & willfully engage in tactics they know will fail & do nothing to hurt their enemy.

The IRA didn't bring Britain to the table in 1921 by sitting on Wicklow head lobbing rockets at Wales.

Hamas, militarily is so willfully inept, its hard to imagine its not on purpose.

Britain came to the table because they wanted to. Israel does not want to negotiate anywhere outside of their own pre set conditions.

While you may think their tactics are not hurting the enemy, they have killed 50+ IDF soldiers.

Israelis tactics have killed possible 1000+ civilians.

Hamas can only do so much damage. Israel could wipe out Palestine in hours, only to do so would be far more genocidal than what they are undertaking right now.

Sand · 31-07-2014 11:03pm

Its being reported that Hamas have finally seen reason and are agreeing to an unconditional 3 day ceasefire, with negotiations to take place on making it permanent. They should have agreed to one weeks ago. Quite literally hundreds of lives could have been saved and thousands spared the misery they have suffered. Nothing has been gained that is worth the lives of the Palestinians they so callously sacrificed.

shedweller · 31-07-2014 11:04pm

esteve wrote: »

Britain came to the table because they wanted to. Israel does not want to negotiate anywhere outside of their own pre set conditions.

While you may think their tactics are not hurting the enemy, they have killed 50+ IDF soldiers.

Israelis tactics have killed possible 1000+ civilians.

Hamas can only do so much damage. Israel could wipe out Palestine in hours, only to do so would be far more genocidal than what they are undertaking right now.

So instead they do it bit by bit so as to not be accused of genocide. Bastards.
Whats going to be done about these bastards?

Hitchens · 31-07-2014 11:05pm

esteve wrote: »

Of course they are getting them from somewhere, where else would they be getting them from?!

anywhere? God-knows-where?

comongethappy · 31-07-2014 11:05pm

esteve wrote: »

Hamas can only do so much damage. Israel could wipe out Palestine in hours, only to do so would be far more genocidal than what they are undertaking right now.

Hamas have fired off 2,500+ rockets in the last few months, to almost no affect.

That's a lot of resources that could be deployed defending Gaza better than the willfully inept attempts they are performing currently.

esteve · 31-07-2014 11:05pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The key difference is that the IDF doesn't use children as human shields whereas Hamas does.

Really, can you show me a picture of some Hamas Militant holding a Palestinian civilian in the form of a shield?

Interestingly, Palestinians don't report this as happening, while Israelis do.

And even if A Hamas militant is surrounded by civilians, how can you justifiably kill the civilans just to get to that militant.

The human shield excuse is just that, an excuse and stems from Israeli PR.

esteve · 31-07-2014 11:07pm

comongethappy wrote: »

Hamas have fired off 2,500+ rockets in the last 90 days, to almost no affect.

That's a lot of resources that could be deployed defending Gaza better than the willfully inept attempts they are performing currently.

Really, so how they could the use the rockets for if not fire in that way, as that is how the are designed.

Did it ever occur to you that getting your hands on materials to make such a rocket is a lot easier than getting an RPG as you previously suggested?

JeffKenna · 31-07-2014 11:10pm

Sand wrote: »

Its being reported that Hamas have finally seen reason and are agreeing to an unconditional 3 day ceasefire, with negotiations to take place on making it permanent. They should have agreed to one weeks ago. Quite literally hundreds of lives could have been saved and thousands spared the misery they have suffered. Nothing has been gained that is worth the lives of the Palestinians they so callously sacrificed.

So Israel killed them yet it's the fault of Hamas?

I'm sorry teacher...Tommy made me do it!

comongethappy · 31-07-2014 11:13pm

esteve wrote: »

Did it ever occur to you that getting your hands on materials to make such a rocket is a lot easier than getting an RPG as you previously suggested?

Do you know that?

An RPG is one of the more cheaper weapons to acquire...

So when the larger rockets are shipped in (the ones not made in gaza), a few manpads & anti-armour weapons wouldn't go amiss.

All available & made under licence in Egypt.
Though as I said, Hamas seem to prefer failure.

Hitchens · 31-07-2014 11:13pm

JeffKenna wrote: »

So Israel killed them yet it's the fault of Hamas?

are you saying that Hamas are not culpable as well?

Nodin · 31-07-2014 11:15pm

comongethappy wrote: »

Do you know that?

An RPG is one of the more cheaper weapons to acquire...

So when the larger rockets are shipped in (the ones not made in gaza), a few manpads & anti-armour weapons wouldn't go amiss.

All available & made under licence in Egypt.
Though as I said, Hamas seem to prefer failure.

The vast vast majority of hamas missiles are improvised.

JeffKenna · 31-07-2014 11:17pm

Hitchens wrote: »

are you saying that Hamas are not culpable as well?

What I'm saying is that the actions of Hamas do not justify the killing of innocent civilians by Israel.

Sand · 31-07-2014 11:22pm

JeffKenna wrote: »

So Israel killed them yet it's the fault of Hamas?

I'm sorry teacher...Tommy made me do it!

What prevented Hamas from agreeing to a ceasefire weeks ago? Hamas have been very clear previously that they were comfortable with Palestinians being killed and wouldn't agree to an unconditional ceasefire.

Now they have agreed to an unconditional ceasefire. Yes, it is the fault of Hamas as they were launching the rockets that provoked Israeli action and refused to stop firing them when that was all it would take to end Israeli action. Throwing around military firepower in highly populated areas like the Gaza Strip will always lead to casualties - Israel can only mitigate those casualties through careful planning and ROE, it cannot prevent them.

Hamas always had the power to prevent them - simply agree to a ceasefire.

mufflets2 · 31-07-2014 11:26pm

It is my understanding that you do not have a right of defence (I.e. Israel)
While you are an illegal occupier in someone else's country.

Where as , as a resistance organisation to an illegal occupation in your own country (i.e. Hamas) you have a right and an obligation to resist the illegal invaders by any means that you can.

comongethappy · 31-07-2014 11:28pm

Nodin wrote: »

The vast vast majority of hamas missiles are improvised.

Most but not all.

Their biggest, with 40+KGS of a warhead are not made locally, but shipped in.

They have few though, so are used sparingly.

So why go to the trouble of doing that, but not actually bother to hurt seriously the air & armour of the IDF?

Companies in Egypt have been making a version of the Strella2 SAM system for years, they cost around 10k & will stop any IDF drone right in its tracks as well as any helicopter... Jets have to think twice about flying low..

Unless they really prefer impotency in their attempts to defend Gaza.

shedweller · 31-07-2014 11:29pm

mufflets2 wrote: »

It is my understanding that you do not have a right of defence (I.e. Israel)
While you are an illegal occupier in someone else's country.

Where as , as a resistance organisation to an illegal occupation in your own country (i.e. Hamas) you have a right and an obligation to resist the illegal invaders by any means that you can.

Now that i would like to see "in writing" if you get my meaning!

Sand · 31-07-2014 11:31pm

mufflets2 wrote: »

It is my understanding that you do not have a right of defence (I.e. Israel)
While you are an illegal occupier in someone else's country.

Where as , as a resistance organisation to an illegal occupation in your own country (i.e. Hamas) you have a right and an obligation to resist the illegal invaders by any means that you can.

That's a useful point. I'm pretty sure no one has brought that to the attention of the IDF. Tweet it to them, they'll probably withdraw immediately when its made clear to them that they have no right to defend themselves. It will be frightfully embarrassing for them that they are in breach of the rules of the internet, but the internet is never wrong.

mufflets2 · 31-07-2014 11:31pm

shedweller wrote: »

Now that i would like to see "in writing" if you get my meaning!

Sounds logical to me
Which part exactly??

Sand · 31-07-2014 11:37pm

comongethappy wrote: »

Companies in Egypt have been making a version of the Strella2 SAM system for years, they cost around 10k & will stop any IDF drone right in its tracks as well as any helicopter... Jets have to think twice about flying low..

Unless they really prefer impotency.

In fairness, Egypt is highly unlikely to supply Hamas with any weaponry that goes above sticks and stones. Egypt and a lot the surrounding Arab regimes view Hamas as being "fellow travellers" with the Jihadists that have emerged in Libya, Syria and Iraq. They're viewed as a much greater threat to the Arab states than Israel is.

The real challenge for a militant group like Hamas is that military resistance to Israel is basically taking on Israel on the field where its advantage over the Palestinians is overwhelming. Even if Hamas did have better kit, the Israelis would simply adjust tactics, or rush over newer and better equipment.

What Hamas should do is look to engage Israel politically, but a militant group that is viewed as a threat by all its neighbours is not really well equipped to engage in a political struggle. Hence the futile military struggle which essentially hands victory to Israel before a shot is fired. The Palestinians could try different strategies, but Hamas cant. Its locked into militant action, right down to its DNA.

mufflets2 · 31-07-2014 11:40pm

Sand wrote: »

That's a useful point. I'm pretty sure no one has brought that to the attention of the IDF. Tweet it to them, they'll probably withdraw immediately when its made clear to them that they have no right to defend themselves. It will be frightfully embarrassing for them that they are in breach of the rules of the internet, but the internet is never wrong.

While I am at it should I point out that the occupation, land theft, dividing wall , apartheid rule, blocade of gaze, bombing of civilians are also illegal,

Do you reckon that I could make a difference to this rogue criminal state ? Yes?

shedweller · 31-07-2014 11:40pm

mufflets2 wrote: »

Sounds logical to me
Which part exactly??

All?

mufflets2 · 31-07-2014 11:44pm

shedweller wrote: »

All?

I am not an authority on international law , however do you think that the Germans could credibly claim the right of defence when they were illegally occupying France and retaliating gainst civilians in response to attacks from the French resistance?????

shedweller · 31-07-2014 11:57pm

mufflets2 wrote: »

I am not an authority on international law , however do you think that the Germans could credibly claim the right of defence when they were illegally occupying France and retaliating gainst civilians in response to attacks from the French resistance?????

That would be a resounding no! But this is israel we are talking about. They can do whatever they like and we just stand idly by for fear of upsetting them or being called an anti semite.
*****, i have no time for them whatsoever.

mufflets2 · 01-08-2014 12:03am

shedweller wrote: »

That would be a resounding no! But this is israel we are talking about. They can do whatever they like and we just stand idly by for fear of upsetting them or being called an anti semite.
*****, i have no time for them whatsoever.

Yes you are right ,
The issue is simple
And is only complicated by media propaganda and Israeli supreme power of influence and false communication.

Nodin · 01-08-2014 12:34am

comongethappy wrote: »

Most but not all.

Their biggest, with 40+KGS of a warhead are not made locally, but shipped in.

They have few though, so are used sparingly.

So why go to the trouble of doing that, but not actually bother to hurt seriously the air & armour of the IDF?

Companies in Egypt have been making a version of the Strella2 SAM system for years, they cost around 10k & will stop any IDF drone right in its tracks as well as any helicopter... Jets have to think twice about flying low..

Unless they really prefer impotency in their attempts to defend Gaza.

I presume there are reasons they don't have them outside the realm of conspiracy theory.

Sand · 01-08-2014 1:18am

The reasons for Hamas agreeing to an unconditional ceasefire are more apparent when the number of daily rocket attacks into Israel from Gaza is checked. Hamas were regularly firing well over 100 rockets a day throughout July - as high as 197 on the 10th July, as low as 110 on July 16th, the day before the ground invasion. Barring a short spike to 154 on July 21st, Hamas rocket attacks have been on a steady decline as the IDF has pushed them back.

It also appears the Hamas strategy to launch surprise attacks on Israeli rear area units using their tunnel network has utterly failed. No successful attack was launched from the tunnel network (several unsuccessful attacks were defeated) and the Israelis are steadily demolishing the network and will continue to do so through the ceasefire. With no power, no water, no sewage, no meaningful support from Egypt and the Hamas footsoldiers increasingly not turning up to fight /fire rockets at Israel, the game is up for Hamas.

It's actually more depressing - it would have been hoped for that some aspect of the Hamas leadership had decided to prioritise the interests of the Palestinian people, but it seems they are only reacting to being militarily defeated by the IDF. That's depressing because it doesn't indicate any evolution in Hamas. They'll just rebuild their rocket stocks and go for another ultimately futile round for confrontation with the IDF in 3-4 years time. Meanwhile, someone else will have to pick up the pieces of the ruins of Gaza and its people.

mufflets2 · 01-08-2014 7:36am

Sand wrote: »

The reasons for Hamas agreeing to an unconditional ceasefire are more apparent when the number of daily rocket attacks into Israel from Gaza is checked. Hamas were regularly firing well over 100 rockets a day throughout July - as high as 197 on the 10th July, as low as 110 on July 16th, the day before the ground invasion. Barring a short spike to 154 on July 21st, Hamas rocket attacks have been on a steady decline as the IDF has pushed them back.

It also appears the Hamas strategy to launch surprise attacks on Israeli rear area units using their tunnel network has utterly failed. No successful attack was launched from the tunnel network (several unsuccessful attacks were defeated) and the Israelis are steadily demolishing the network and will continue to do so through the ceasefire. With no power, no water, no sewage, no meaningful support from Egypt and the Hamas footsoldiers increasingly not turning up to fight /fire rockets at Israel, the game is up for Hamas.

It's actually more depressing - it would have been hoped for that some aspect of the Hamas leadership had decided to prioritise the interests of the Palestinian people, but it seems they are only reacting to being militarily defeated by the IDF. That's depressing because it doesn't indicate any evolution in Hamas. They'll just rebuild their rocket stocks and go for another ultimately futile round for confrontation with the IDF in 3-4 years time. Meanwhile, someone else will have to pick up the pieces of the ruins of Gaza and its people.

You seem to be implying that Hamas are in some way responsible for the war crimes being perpetrated against the Gazan people by the foreign invaders.

Any country would have a violent resistant organisation (ineffective and all as they are considering the enemy)
While they are are being illegally occupied , oppressed, and having their land slowly stolen day by day by an illegal foreign power???

shedweller · 01-08-2014 7:55am

mufflets2 wrote: »

You seem to be implying that Hamas are in some way responsible for the war crimes being perpetrated against the Gazan people by the foreign invaders.

Any country would have a violent resistant organisation (ineffective and all as they are considering the enemy)
While they are are being illegally occupied , oppressed, and having their land slowly stolen day by day by an illegal foreign power???

This is, yet again, the big massive elephant in the room. This is the point where all this nonsense started. There was no israel before the war and now there is.
There was a Palestine before the war and now there isn't.
A child could see the pattern here.

comongethappy · 01-08-2014 7:56am

mufflets2 wrote: »

You seem to be implying that Hamas are in some way responsible for the war crimes being perpetrated against the Gazan people by the foreign invaders.

I don't think he's saying that at all.

The thread is "how can the Palestinians defend themselves".
It should be relatively dispassionate..... There are plenty of other threads on the conflict to be hysterical on.

Hamas, despite having the money & 10,000+ fighters seem so utterly bereft of ideas & tactics.

This 'strategy' of lobbing thousands of rockets at Israel... while at the same time doing very little to engage the IDF when the do actually invade .

Such ineptitude after decades of doing the same seems like its intentional, especially when better military alternatives are available.

Its not beyond the realm of possibility that Hamas don't want to defend Gaza effectively

shedweller · 01-08-2014 8:04am

The only way Palestine can defend itself now is to gain global support for it. israels army is very well equipped and funded by the US also so Palestine hasn't a hope against that. All it can do now is to get us, the general public, to make some sort of stand against this nonsense.
They have a right to exist as much as any of us and to stand idly by and let them be exterminated is to be complicit in their genocide. And it is genocide, a kind of slow motion genocide. Shame on us for letting israel away with this for so long.

mufflets2 · 01-08-2014 8:31am

comongethappy wrote: »

I don't think he's saying that at all.

The thread is "how can the Palestinians defend themselves".
It should be relatively dispassionate..... There are plenty of other threads on the conflict to be hysterical on.

Hamas, despite having the money & 10,000+ fighters seem so utterly bereft of ideas & tactics.

This 'strategy' of lobbing thousands of rockets at Israel... while at the same time doing very little to engage the IDF when the do actually invade .

Such ineptitude after decades of doing the same seems like its intentional, especially when better military alternatives are available.

Its not beyond the realm of possibility that Hamas don't want to defend Gaza effectively

I don't think that you understand the situation, are you suggesting that Hamas (with their comparatively defenceless resistance resources) would be more effective by engaging the illegal and ruthless superpower in a more direct way???

I think that the more relevant question is , how does Israel manage to commit war crimes against helpless people and have the media power to get many people debating on what Hamas said or did not say or the fine points of how the Palestinians should be defending themselves.

They cannot, they are being bombed from the air, they need outside help

It amazes me , can you imagine a debate "discussing" the tactics being implemented by the French resistance when the Germans were illegally occupying that country. ????
And committing war crimes???

comongethappy · 01-08-2014 8:41am

mufflets2 wrote: »

they need outside help

They do get outside military help, not a huge amount, but a significant amount.
I mean, their rifles don't grow out of the ground.

Their choice though to prioritise thousands of useless rockets over more useful weapons is what seems so ridiculously stupid

mufflets2 · 01-08-2014 8:47am

What do you think they could do better?

What would you do for example if Israel were illegally occupying Ireland , oppressing us and annexing our land,

Genuine question .

(I think that this is the real problem, because of Israeli influence and p.r. We do not see the Palestinians as folks like ourselves they mostly do not have a spokesman on the news or he looks foreign, unlike the polished performances from the Israeli side)

comongethappy · 01-08-2014 9:11am

mufflets2 wrote: »

What do you think they could do better?

What would you do for example if Israel were illegally occupying Ireland , oppressing us and annexing our land,

Genuine question .

- Stop firing rockets....
They don't do anything & invite retaliation.

If the IDF do invade they always do the same.
Arial bombardment followed by tank led ground ops.

Hamas seem disinclined to use IED or mines to blunt the IED advance.
If the have the explosives to make thousands of useless rockets, they can turn the northern km of Gaza into a tank kill zone.

Purchase some more rpg7, they have some & have used to good effect but not enough.... But again, prefer to buy useless rockets.

The IDF use some drones, mostly for surveillance it seems.
Drones are slow, low & manoeuvre poorly.
None can evade the most rudimentary Manpad.
Ditto goes for helicopters.

Again, why do HAMAS fail where other insurgent groups succeed?

mufflets2 · 01-08-2014 9:33am

comongethappy wrote: »

-

Again, why do HAMAS fail where other insurgent groups succeed?

Mainly I believe because of US and Israeli led propaganda and mis-representation of them stiffling support for them from outside.

Many for example do not Know that, all Hamas and the Palestinians want is what they are entitled to under the law.

I am no authority on the best tactics for guerrilla resistance
however I presume that they are hoping that even the fear of these rockets flying into Israel would sway the Israeli public into demanding an end to the illegal occupation.

I take your point however it must be difficult to find effective resistance strategies against a foe as powerful as Israel.

shedweller · 01-08-2014 9:45am

comongethappy wrote: »

They do get outside military help, not a huge amount, but a significant amount.
I mean, their rifles don't grow out of the ground.

Their choice though to prioritise thousands of useless rockets over more useful weapons is what seems so ridiculously stupid

So, what you're saying is that the Palestinians should get and use the best of weaponry. If this is your way of supporting them then I applaud you good sir!

But you're not really. You're towing the party line that israel is right and Palestine is wrong but using lots of words to do it, much like the rest of the world. At the end of the day it cannot be denied how israel was founded and what went on there. The Palestinians were there first and since then they have been subjected to the whims of israel.

For shame.

comongethappy · 01-08-2014 10:00am

shedweller wrote: »

You're towing the party line that israel is right and Palestine is wrong but using lots of words to do it, much like the rest of the world. At the end of the day it cannot be denied how israel was founded and what went on there. The Palestinians were there first and since then they have been subjected to the whims of israel.

For shame.

How silly of me!

I had no idea that questioning the willful futility of lobbing thousands of rockets with zero effect when more effective alternatives are available makes me a Zionist shill.

My apologies.... Instead I'll toe the Hamas line that doing the same thing decade after decade will eventually work.

Sand · 01-08-2014 1:48pm

Mufflets/Shedwaller - can either of you demonstrate how the Hamas campaign over the past month has been militarily successful?

It seems like the ceasefire has broken down even before it really got started. Both sides blaming the other.

irishpancake · 01-08-2014 3:16pm

Sand wrote: »

Mufflets/Shedwaller - can either of you demonstrate how the Hamas campaign over the past month has been militarily successful?

It seems like the ceasefire has broken down even before it really got started. Both sides blaming the other.

Hamas has self-evidently not been militarily successful, nor could they be.

This is the fourth largest Army in the world, armed and sustained by the World's No. 1 Superpower, to the tune of a further €30 Billion for the 10 years to 2017, more than ever under the Bush Government.

They have a huge Military/Industrial Complex and armaments Industry, exporting technology and sophisticated weapons of destruction everywhere.

They are the No. 1 exporter of drones, which they have used to devastating effect against the civilian population of the lands they illegally occupy, against many UN Resolutions.

Israeli society is highly militarised, in order to protect their continued hegemony in the the former Palestine.

But, despite the best efforts of pro-Israeli and pro-IDF propagandists in the print and broadcast media, on Social Media and here, there is, IMO, a perceptible change in public attitudes toward the Israeli Government and their policies with regard to the Palestinian Refugees they created, without the right of return to their own lands, which they forcibly incarcerate in the largest open-air prison in the world, Gaza and the West Bank.

comongethappy · 01-08-2014 4:08pm

irishpancake wrote: »

Hamas has self-evidently not been militarily successful, nor could they be.
.

Id argue that they could be more successful.

Either way, if their attempts are futile, why do they pour vast resources into thousands of rockets & millions of tonnes of cement & steel into tunnels?

Instead of choosing defensive tactics & anti air/armour (that absolutely would make the IDF think twice), they engage in a futile offence.

Their military tactical choices leave the gazans all but defenceless.

tayto lover · 01-08-2014 4:26pm

The IDF don't seem to be a disciplined army at all and remind me of the Black & Tans. They are grand behind all the fire-power from gunships, gunboats and drones but when they come in on the ground Hamas seems well able for them.

mufflets2 · 01-08-2014 4:28pm

Sand wrote: »

Mufflets/Shedwaller - can either of you demonstrate how the Hamas campaign over the past month has been militarily successful?

It seems like the ceasefire has broken down even before it really got started. Both sides blaming the other.

I dont think that you realy understand what is going on

otherwise you would not be asking irrelevent questions
"can either of you demonstrate how the Hamas campaign over the past month has been militarily successful?"

as has been mentioned it hasnt or cant be for the reasons outlined by Irishpancake.

This however suggests to me that you are believing the propaganda and have the wrong end of the stick
"Both sides blaming the other"

there are not two sides to the story or "a pair of them at it"
This is what the US and Israeli superpowered propaganda machine wants you to believe.

The illegal settlements for example are referred to by the media as "Jewish neighbourhoods" sounds nice eh , but not accurate.

Israel Is in breach of more International laws than any other country in the world for their illegal Occupation and land theft in their neighboring country.

They hold the Gazan people in an open air prison with little or no rights and steal more and more of their land weakly during "peace times".
They have no interest in peace and they use the US to block any attempts at peace at the UN.
They are getting everything that they want (more land) as the regular run of the mill "peace times" goes on.

Hamas is, as you would expect under the above circumstances a resistance organisation attempting to expel the illegal invaders by whatever limited means that they have.
However instead of being supported by the outside world they have been successfully vilified due to Israeli influence in US and media.

Again
Hamas and the Palestinians want only what they are entitled to under international law.

If the law were enforced in the region, Israel would be forced to retreat to their own country including all the illegal settlers, they would owe palestein billions in reparations, and all Palestinians illegaly evicted into refugee camps would be allowed home.

There is no doubt as to who owns the land, it has been ruled on and tested in International courts, It belongs to the Indigenous palestinians not Israel

They would no longer be allowed to accept illegal arms from the US and probably have to give up their undeclared nuclear arms.

They are in short a Realy powerful rogue state

How should Palestine defend itself?

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