Ireland-Openside Flankers

the juice · 07-02-2012 4:01pm

d-gal wrote: »

As I said he is a different style of player, better in the rucks and better in the tight.

Better than who??

ed7890 · 07-02-2012 4:16pm

yimrsg wrote: »

Ronan plays 7 for Munster, so POM isn't rated as a 7 provincially but you're advocating POM to usurp him and play 7 in the national side. The same thing already happened when SOB overtook his Leinster comrade, Jennings in international selection at 7. All that will happen is the same mistakes continue, DK and the coaches will spin a yarn saying he came and performed admirably yadda yadda yadda, a little more of me will die inside, and we're still left without a cohesive backrow and some posters will call for the next in the line of young talent or 7's to fill the gap; Ruddock/Henry/Jennings/Ronan/Ryan/Faloon/etc. ad infinitum.

Just to add, Ronan is out injured for 6 months, he just had his knee operation last week I think. If POM plays next week he wont be getting a spot ahead of Ronan because he isn't available.

wicklowdub · 07-02-2012 4:21pm

When is the team expected to be announced ?

d-gal · 07-02-2012 4:23pm

the juice wrote: »

d-gal wrote: »

As I said he is a different style of player, better in the rucks and better in the tight.

Better than who??

Heaslip in the tight and SOB/ferris at ruck time. The 3 of them are better in the loose than him and heaslip is great at ruck time but he seems not to be involved as much as he was previously (either orders or just him not doing the dirty work). The 3 are better overall obviously but I just see something different in POM, he is like a mix of Quinlan and a young jonny o connor

We are going around in circles anyways and a lot of us will agree to disagree.
Main point is our current backrow doesn't work together at the moment (due to them/system/whatever) and we should change it. POM has the best potential out of our current crop so let's try him out. Maybe not against France (tho he might have to with Ferris ban) but maybe against the Scots and Italians.

The system could be changed but its not gonna happen under Kidney and he is going to be there for a while I feel (fear!)

smurphy29 · 07-02-2012 4:32pm

Bamboozle's point is correct. There is no need to change the make-up of the backrow, but the tctics have to change, and means commiting greater numbers to the breakdown. Look at the tape of any of the following games: Leinster v Bath, Ulster v Leicester and Saints v Munster. None have a McCaw or a Warburton, but the Irish provinces in each case attacked the breakdown with a feral intensity (and accuracy) and as a result Reddan / Pienaar / Murray got the ball on a silver service.

Ireland may not have a natural openside but they have a number of outstanding ruck-smashers - Ferris, Heaslip, O'Connell, Healy, Ryan and Best all instantly spring to mind. They need to use these players to smash opponents off the ball. It didn't happen on sunday.

d-gal · 07-02-2012 4:39pm

smurphy29 wrote: »

Bamboozle's point is correct. There is no need to change the make-up of the backrow, but the tctics have to change, and means commiting greater numbers to the breakdown. Look at the tape of any of the following games: Leinster v Bath, Ulster v Leicester and Saints v Munster. None have a McCaw or a Warburton, but the Irish provinces in each case attacked the breakdown with a feral intensity (and accuracy) and as a result Reddan / Pienaar / Murray got the ball on a silver service.

Ireland may not have a natural openside but they have a number of outstanding ruck-smashers - Ferris, Heaslip, O'Connell, Healy, Ryan and Best all instantly spring to mind. They need to use these players to smash opponents off the ball. It didn't happen on sunday.

But it won't change anytime soon coz of Kidney and co.
I fear as well if we beat England that kidneys job will be safe

JustinDee · 07-02-2012 4:52pm

smurphy29 wrote: »

Bamboozle's point is correct. There is no need to change the make-up of the backrow, but the tctics have to change, and means commiting greater numbers to the breakdown. Look at the tape of any of the following games: Leinster v Bath, Ulster v Leicester and Saints v Munster. None have a McCaw or a Warburton, but the Irish provinces in each case attacked the breakdown with a feral intensity (and accuracy) and as a result Reddan / Pienaar / Murray got the ball on a silver service

Leinster and Ulster especially, commit as few to the defensive breakdown as possible. If the ball is already being won, no need. A defender won't commit unless they have to.

the juice · 07-02-2012 4:56pm

You dont need to commit loads to the breakdown; those going have to time it well and get over the ball so they are relatively immovable and the scrum half has to get to the ball quickly

bamboozle · 07-02-2012 4:58pm

d-gal wrote: »

But it won't change anytime soon coz of Kidney and co.
I fear as well if we beat England that kidneys job will be safe

so bringing in someone new, and arguably a less experienced player, into the back row would have zero impact as the decision of management not to have players hitting rucks.

POM is a decent player, he looks like he'll be a great player, he's miles off SOB, Heaslip & Ferris physically, experience-wise, discipline wise (ironic saying that given Ferris' yellow but POM discipline needs addressing)

Finally, Paris is not the stage to give someone their debut...Derek McAllesse & Pat O'Hara will attest to that.

Otacon · 07-02-2012 5:04pm

bamboozle wrote: »

discipline wise (ironic saying that given Ferris' yellow but POM discipline needs addressing)

Does anyone have the stats for POM? I keep hearing he has discipline issues but I can't remember him getting many/any YC or giving away penalties in the HCup.

Tox56 · 07-02-2012 5:08pm

Otacon wrote: »

Does anyone have the stats for POM? I keep hearing he has discipline issues but I can't remember him getting many/any YC or giving away penalties in the HCup.

I do know he got a yellow v the Dragons in the Pro12 earlier in the season. Think he got one last year as well. I think it's more he just gets wound up easily, happened v Leinster earlier this season. Easy to get under his skin.

the juice · 07-02-2012 5:16pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I do know he got a yellow v the Dragons in the Pro12 earlier in the season. Think he got one last year as well. I think it's more he just gets wound up easily, happened v Leinster earlier this season. Easy to get under his skin.

(off everyone goes to find a video or reference to it online) = momentary silence on this topic

ed7890 · 07-02-2012 5:27pm

He seems to get wound up a lot, or is always willing to get involved in a bit of handbags, but I think so far he hasn't let it go further and cost the team anything. The only thing I'd be concerned is when he is captain he shouldn't be sizing up to people like that, it'll affect how the ref treats him. When O'Connell is on, it's not too bad.

Like I don't think a team has been able to provoke him into more penalties or getting carded, so if he can keep that it'll be grand. If i remember correctly the yellow he got against Dragons was for not rolling away, and he was caught under bodies in the ruck, so it was soft enough.

Otacon · 07-02-2012 5:37pm

Nothing wrong with a backrow player with a bit of an edge. Wouldn't hold it against him.

I wonder if Ferris does get a ban [somehow] would Henry be called back into the squad?

smurphy29 · 07-02-2012 6:10pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Leinster and Ulster especially, commit as few to the defensive breakdown as possible. If the ball is already being won, no need. A defender won't commit unless they have to.

Yeah, it's not so much a numbers thing as the ferocity and accuracy with which they hit the breakdown.

RoundBox11 · 07-02-2012 6:19pm

I see that Ferris has been cited for his yellow card on Sunday. If he's forced to sit out a game or two we might see what our options are at 7

Podge_irl · 07-02-2012 6:32pm

smurphy29 wrote: »

Yeah, it's not so much a numbers thing as the ferocity and accuracy with which they hit the breakdown.

And speed. The quicker you get to the brakdown the fewer players you're going to need to present clean ball. Ireland were noticeably slower at this then Wales.

Reloc8 · 07-02-2012 7:16pm

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I see that Ferris has been cited for his yellow card on Sunday. If he's forced to sit out a game or two we might see what our options are at 7

Rather depressingly I would imagine a ban for Ferris would leave SOB selected at 7, DOC at 4 and Donnacha Ryan at 6.

bk123 · 07-02-2012 10:19pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance for not really following his developement, but what type of player would be best to describe Dom Ryan? Is he good on the ground but better at carrying/something else, or is best in the breakdown but brings other attributes?

Reloc8 wrote: »

Rather depressingly I would imagine a ban for Ferris would leave SOB selected at 7, DOC at 4 and Donnacha Ryan at 6.

Sadly this is true, Ryan plays best at 4 which he should start at, i doubt ferris will be banned, but if he does id love to see O'brien at 6 or 8 where he plays his best rugby, hes effective at 7 but needs to get to the breakdown quicker and take the ball on at pace like he did with leinster last year no point a player with his power spending must of the time on the ground, ruddock is also an option at 6 as O'mahony at 7, Not a chance will kidney take such a risk though!

trackguy · 07-02-2012 11:09pm

Reloc8 wrote: »

Rather depressingly I would imagine a ban for Ferris would leave SOB selected at 7, DOC at 4 and Donnacha Ryan at 6.

That's depressing, but probably true.

If Ferris is banned and the backrow ended up as 6. SOB 7. POM 8. Heaslip, at least we would see a very promising backrow with arguably more balance than the usual one.

Of course, this is Kidney and this is Paris, so that won't happen.

Stop-gap measures instead of forward-thinking and building for the future.

Podge_irl · 07-02-2012 11:27pm

I have no idea where this idea that POM provides "balance" to the backrow has come from. He was behind the monster that is Niall Ronan at 7. He's played only 2 or 3 games there. He's no more a 7 then SOB is, and SOB has a lot more going for him in other areas. Ferris/SOB/Heaslip remain our best backrow. Ireland's problem is not the lack of a "proper 7" it's the entire approach to the ruck area.

trackguy · 07-02-2012 11:36pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have no idea where this idea that POM provides "balance" to the backrow has come from. He was behind the monster that is Niall Ronan at 7. He's played only 2 or 3 games there. He's no more a 7 then SOB is, and SOB has a lot more going for him in other areas. Ferris/SOB/Heaslip remain our best backrow. Ireland's problem is not the lack of a "proper 7" it's the entire approach to the ruck area.

I, for one, have never proclaimed POM to be the saviour at 7. I do think he offers something different to the other 3 players and IF Ferris is banned, it would be interesting to see how a backrow with him in it fared. He's a promising talent.

I'd also prefer to see him than D Ryan moving to 6 and DOC keeping his place at 4.

Podge_irl · 07-02-2012 11:40pm

trackguy wrote: »

I'd also prefer to see him than D Ryan moving to 6 and DOC keeping his place at 4.

Well that I agree on. Wouldn't object to Henry at 7 either.

Unfortunately though, I highly doubt any change in personnel will make a material difference as long as Ireland continue with their slow support play and soak tackles.

Fireball07 · 08-02-2012 12:01am

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have no idea where this idea that POM provides "balance" to the backrow has come from. He was behind the monster that is Niall Ronan at 7. He's played only 2 or 3 games there. He's no more a 7 then SOB is, and SOB has a lot more going for him in other areas. Ferris/SOB/Heaslip remain our best backrow. Ireland's problem is not the lack of a "proper 7" it's the entire approach to the ruck area.

I'm not sure that he really is "behind" Ronan at 7. Ronan got picked ahead of him, yes, but that is because POM's best position at 7 and Ronan is in good form. I think POM could be a better 7 than Ronan, his performance there against Northampton and there was another in the pro12 would suggest he has the talents to play there. But he is a natural 6, that is true.

I think he may possibly add something slightly different to the back row, but I don't think he's going to solve all our problems. Atm he is not a better player than Ferris, SOB or Heaslip and I don't really think it's the personnel that is the problem but none of the 3 (though Heaslip was close) were at the top of their individual games at the weekend. None of them were bad but they are such talented players, you expect more. If POM is picked, he will at least bring huge aggression and is a clever operator at the breakdown.

I dunno though, personally I'd keep the same back row with POM on the bench, I think the tactics are the real problem.

Podge_irl · 08-02-2012 12:12am

Fireball07 wrote: »

I think POM could be a better 7 than Ronan, his performance there against Northampton and there was another in the pro12 would suggest he has the talents to play there. But he is a natural 6, that is true.

It was against Aironi. Not exactly a basis for deciding international quality.

I'd also be slightly concerned with his tendency to get injured. He seems to go into contact a bit poorly.

irishbucsfan · 08-02-2012 9:32am

The idea that POM is ahead of Henry is laughable but that is just the nature of the Irish management these days.

As for DOM Ryan, he is projecting to 7 now. He's an excellent open field defender who is strong over the ball. His breakdown play was getting better and better all the time before his injury. He is probably.the best young 7 in the country at the moment until Gilsenan, Coneely or Birch develop.

bamboozle · 08-02-2012 9:32am

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have no idea where this idea that POM provides "balance" to the backrow has come from. He was behind the monster that is Niall Ronan at 7. He's played only 2 or 3 games there. He's no more a 7 then SOB is, and SOB has a lot more going for him in other areas. Ferris/SOB/Heaslip remain our best backrow. Ireland's problem is not the lack of a "proper 7" it's the entire approach to the ruck area.

well said.

i'm afraid George Hook's hysterical post match comments calling for POM are being taken on board by some. POM's a good player, possibly he'll be a great player, but he's not a 7 and he's certainly not going to make a jot of a difference if we play with the same tactics in Paris as we did last weekend.

bamboozle · 08-02-2012 9:33am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The idea that POM is ahead of Henry is laughable but that is just the nature of the Irish management these days.

As for DOM Ryan, he is projecting to 7 now. He's an excellent open field defender who is strong over the ball. His breakdown play was getting better and better all the time before his injury. He is probably.the best young 7 in the country at the moment until Gilsenan, Coneely or Birch develop.

who's Birch?

Coneely looked very good last friday night (as did the welsh 7), great linkman.

irishbucsfan · 08-02-2012 9:37am

bamboozle wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The idea that POM is ahead of Henry is laughable but that is just the nature of the Irish management these days.

As for DOM Ryan, he is projecting to 7 now. He's an excellent open field defender who is strong over the ball. His breakdown play was getting better and better all the time before his injury. He is probably.the best young 7 in the country at the moment until Gilsenan, Coneely or Birch develop.

who's Birch?

Coneely looked very good last friday night (as did the welsh 7), great linkman.

Ali Birch. Ulster 7 who was probably the best back row (possibly forward) when Ulster sent their B&I team to their doom in the RDS.

irishbucsfan · 08-02-2012 9:42am

Podge_irl wrote: »

It was against Aironi. Not exactly a basis for deciding international quality.

I'd also be slightly concerned with his tendency to get injured. He seems to go into contact a bit poorly.

His ball carrying technique is one of the standout reasons he shouldn't be playing international rugby yet. He'll concede more turnovers than he secures (as he has done in most games so far) and could well get injured again.

Of course George Hook doesn't know any of this because he barely watches the game.

08-02-2012 11:00am

Lads, I don't know where the Dom Ryan love is coming from. I thought he was excellent last season, but he didn't play a fetcher's game very often. Yes he's more of a "7777" than SOB or Ruddock, but he's definitely in the "all-rounder" category more so than as a specialist openside imo.

I think he'll get there, but even if he wasn't injured this season, I reckon that this 6N would still have come too early for him.

It's quite funny tbh, the amount of work that Heaslip and SOB do at the breakdown allows Ferris to be available when they play 678. Any adjustment to those 3 is going to result in a very similar setup, and we'll be cursing the inclusion of the AN Other.

A fetcher doesn't hit every ruck, a fetcher doesn't win every ball. Watch Tipuric (another star in the making imo) last week, he possibly "intervened" in 2/3 rucks maximum.

This "Pod" system that we're trying to use to reset clean ball is bull****, and causing us more problems than the defence.

d-gal · 08-02-2012 11:33am

Deleted User wrote: »

It's quite funny tbh, the amount of work that Heaslip and SOB do at the breakdown allows Ferris to be available when they play 678. Any adjustment to those 3 is going to result in a very similar setup, and we'll be cursing the inclusion of the AN Other./QUOTE]

Is there any stats available for this? I thought SOB hit a decent amount of rucks but Heaslip was out in the backs for half the match. Ferris seemed in and out a lot and unfortunately was pretty annonymous compared to the Welsh backrow

the juice · 08-02-2012 11:43am

O Brien made the most amount of tackles which explains why he didn't make all the bullocking runs everyone wants him to make; Heaslip made 11 tackles which was 5th highest in the team behind, wait for it POC, D'arcy and McFadden;

He made the same amt of tackles as Conor Murray who was excellent defensively according to most posters here;

I dunno how Heaslip could make all those tackles while hes "hiding" on the wing.

I do agrre on Ferris though; he had one to forget even before "that" tackle; The welsh seem to have his number.

JustinDee · 08-02-2012 12:00pm

the juice wrote: »

O Brien made the most amount of tackles which explains why he didn't make all the bullocking runs everyone wants him to make; Heaslip made 11 tackles which was 5th highest in the team behind, wait for it POC, D'arcy and McFadden;

He made the same amt of tackles as Conor Murray who was excellent defensively according to most posters here;

I dunno how Heaslip could make all those tackles while hes "hiding" on the wing.

I do agrre on Ferris though; he had one to forget even before "that" tackle; The welsh seem to have his number.

Whose stats are you quoting? I don't think they're an official set. ESPN perhaps?
The stats I was breezing through on Sunday evening at stadium showed Heaslip just one completed tackle behind O'Brien who had 19 under his belt.

the juice · 08-02-2012 12:04pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Whose stats are you quoting? I don't think they're an official set. ESPN perhaps?
The stats I was breezing through on Sunday evening at stadium showed Heaslip just one completed tackle behind O'Brien who had 19 under his belt.

Im stuck with just the crap ESPN which while usually wide off the mark do get the odd stat correct; i said 18 with ESPN you qouted 19 on the official line so not far off there;

Either way its plain as day O' Brien spent the game tackling everything around him as did Heaslip and to a lesser extent D'arcy and McFadden.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 08-02-2012 3:42pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Whose stats are you quoting? I don't think they're an official set. ESPN perhaps?
The stats I was breezing through on Sunday evening at stadium showed Heaslip just one completed tackle behind O'Brien who had 19 under his belt.

I presume that you wouldn't be able to get a copy of the official stats for us after matches? They might be too in-depth to release to us plebs but, I'm sure they'd be a great and reliable read.

JustinDee · 08-02-2012 4:26pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I presume that you wouldn't be able to get a copy of the official stats for us after matches? They might be too in-depth to release to us plebs but, I'm sure they'd be a great and reliable read.

Afraid not. I'm lucky enough myself to get a look in.

rugbyman2015 · 23-02-2012 10:27pm

Have spotted a couple of 'sevens' in the Leinster schools cup this year. Anyone seen Paddy Thornton from Terenure and and Jack O'Neill from Castleknock in action?

Both were pacy, good link men and were good at slowing down ball while also having the ability to carry ball themselves.

Hagz · 23-02-2012 10:30pm

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Have spotted a couple of 'sevens' in the Leinster schools cup this year. Anyone seen Paddy Thornton from Terenure and and Jack O'Neill from Castleknock in action?

Both were pacy, good link men and were good at slowing down ball while also having the ability to carry ball themselves.

Must watch the Nure game and look out for him. Saw O'Neill and was impressed. Didn't turn over much ball but he must have had his back bent about 10 or 12 times trying to, plus he's pacey too.

stephen_n · 23-02-2012 10:53pm

Seems like a fairly academic point for now anyway. We don't really seem to produce any natural 7's so we should do what all winning sides do and play with what we have got and impose our game plan on other teams. If this was a case of the Irish management not picking an obvious choice at 7 it might be a valid point but since we don't have a McCaw, Pocock or warburton available or in the pipeline it seems like a better idea to devise gameplans around what we do have.

RoundBox11 · 23-02-2012 11:19pm

From what everyone has been saying, Conor Gilsenan and Aaron Coneely have serious potential at 7. I know itd be another 4 years or so before either would get a look into the senior squad but having 2 pure 7's coming through the u20's might ease this problem in the future.
Maybe Dominic Ryan could do a job there for a while too.

Hagz · 24-02-2012 12:46am

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Have spotted a couple of 'sevens' in the Leinster schools cup this year. Anyone seen Paddy Thornton from Terenure and and Jack O'Neill from Castleknock in action?

Both were pacy, good link men and were good at slowing down ball while also having the ability to carry ball themselves.

Just watched it again there. Thornton was good in the areas you said but I thought he was pretty anonymous in at the breakdown. Didn't turn over any ball and didn't really try to. He still had a good game, but I didn't see any of the scavenger qualities from him.

rugbyman2015 · 25-02-2012 10:49pm

Sam Warburton certainly highlighted his significant value to Wales again today with a super defensive performance against England.

Then we have Peter O'Mahoney making his debut off the bench against Italy in place of Sean O'Brien. How do people think he fared?

Could O'Mahoney push O'Brien out of the starting team?

skregs · 26-02-2012 5:44pm

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Could O'Mahoney push O'Brien out of the starting team?

No. Despite what people desperately want to believe, he's a Leamy style 6/7/8 flanker rather than an out and out 7 like Wally.

We need a player who plays 7 all the time for his club, has the speed necessary and ability to turnover ruck ball and catch attacking oppostion.
An unspecialised player is never going to be an incredible OS.

Heaslip plays 8 for Leinster and Ireland, Ferris plays 6 for Ulster and Ireland.
It's stupid to have SOB playing blind for Leinster, spending the year building strength and practising breaks then expect him to play 7 for Ireland.

irishbucsfan · 26-02-2012 5:48pm

skregs wrote: »

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Could O'Mahoney push O'Brien out of the starting team?

No. Despite what people desperately want to believe, he's a Leamy style 6/7/8 flanker rather than an out and out 7 like Wally.

We need a player who plays 7 all the time for his club, has the speed necessary and ability to turnover ruck ball and catch attacking oppostion.
An unspecialised player is never going to be an incredible OS.

Heaslip plays 8 for Leinster and Ireland, Ferris plays 6 for Ulster and Ireland.
It's stupid to have SOB playing blind for Leinster, spending the year building strength and practising breaks then expect him to play 7 for Ireland.

O'Brien plays 7 for Leinster. He won European player of the year playing 7 in Leinsters HEC games last season and he has been playing there again this season.

Hes just a different type of 7.

thomond2006 · 26-02-2012 5:49pm

A Ross Rennie clone would be useful.

Neil3030 · 26-02-2012 5:51pm

I think POM coming on as early as he did will serve to light a fire under SOB and I fully expect him to come out smashing lads in Paris.

rugbyman2015 · 26-02-2012 6:00pm

Agree that POM is not really the full package at 7. I think our back row will stay the way it is for a while unless some Pocock/Warburton like player comes out of the under age system in a few years time.

How did Gilsenan do for the U20's against Italy the other night? Didn't get to see the match as it wasn't televised on tv.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 26-02-2012 6:00pm

skregs wrote: »

No. Despite what people desperately want to believe, he's a Leamy style 6/7/8 flanker rather than an out and out 7 like Wally.

We need a player who plays 7 all the time for his club, has the speed necessary and ability to turnover ruck ball and catch attacking oppostion.
An unspecialised player is never going to be an incredible OS.

Heaslip plays 8 for Leinster and Ireland, Ferris plays 6 for Ulster and Ireland.
It's stupid to have SOB playing blind for Leinster, spending the year building strength and practising breaks then expect him to play 7 for Ireland.

He is nothing like Leamy and Wallace isn't "an out and out 7". If he is to be compared with anyone from the recent Irish setup, it would be a young Quinlan (who was often a 7 afaik).

A 7 doesn't need to turnover ruckball, a player capable of making a nuisance of themselves and slowing down ball is just as relevant. POM is that type of player. He has plenty enough pace to be a very successful 7. He has even turned out for Con on the wing when returning from injury.

SOB could well have played more professional rugby at 7 than 6. The problem is that now that he is no longer in a purple patch of form, the deficiencies in his game as a 7 are standing out.

Hagz · 26-02-2012 6:01pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

O'Brien plays 7 for Leinster. He won European player of the year playing 7 in Leinsters HEC games last season and he has been playing there again this season.

Hes just a different type of 7.

That's not exactly true though is it? O'Brien played 3 games in the Heinken Cup at 7, and in those games, Jennings would come on in or around half-time at which point he's move back to 6. He played 4 games at blindside and 2 games at 8 and it's safe to say he was much more impressive in those games.

Ireland-Openside Flankers

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