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Ireland-Openside Flankers

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    #122
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I have no idea where this idea that POM provides "balance" to the backrow has come from. He was behind the monster that is Niall Ronan at 7. He's played only 2 or 3 games there. He's no more a 7 then SOB is, and SOB has a lot more going for him in other areas. Ferris/SOB/Heaslip remain our best backrow. Ireland's problem is not the lack of a "proper 7" it's the entire approach to the ruck area.


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    #123
    trackguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭trackguy


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I have no idea where this idea that POM provides "balance" to the backrow has come from. He was behind the monster that is Niall Ronan at 7. He's played only 2 or 3 games there. He's no more a 7 then SOB is, and SOB has a lot more going for him in other areas. Ferris/SOB/Heaslip remain our best backrow. Ireland's problem is not the lack of a "proper 7" it's the entire approach to the ruck area.

    I, for one, have never proclaimed POM to be the saviour at 7. I do think he offers something different to the other 3 players and IF Ferris is banned, it would be interesting to see how a backrow with him in it fared. He's a promising talent.

    I'd also prefer to see him than D Ryan moving to 6 and DOC keeping his place at 4.


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    #124
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    trackguy wrote: »
    I'd also prefer to see him than D Ryan moving to 6 and DOC keeping his place at 4.

    Well that I agree on. Wouldn't object to Henry at 7 either.

    Unfortunately though, I highly doubt any change in personnel will make a material difference as long as Ireland continue with their slow support play and soak tackles.


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    #125
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I have no idea where this idea that POM provides "balance" to the backrow has come from. He was behind the monster that is Niall Ronan at 7. He's played only 2 or 3 games there. He's no more a 7 then SOB is, and SOB has a lot more going for him in other areas. Ferris/SOB/Heaslip remain our best backrow. Ireland's problem is not the lack of a "proper 7" it's the entire approach to the ruck area.

    I'm not sure that he really is "behind" Ronan at 7. Ronan got picked ahead of him, yes, but that is because POM's best position at 7 and Ronan is in good form. I think POM could be a better 7 than Ronan, his performance there against Northampton and there was another in the pro12 would suggest he has the talents to play there. But he is a natural 6, that is true.

    I think he may possibly add something slightly different to the back row, but I don't think he's going to solve all our problems. Atm he is not a better player than Ferris, SOB or Heaslip and I don't really think it's the personnel that is the problem but none of the 3 (though Heaslip was close) were at the top of their individual games at the weekend. None of them were bad but they are such talented players, you expect more. If POM is picked, he will at least bring huge aggression and is a clever operator at the breakdown.

    I dunno though, personally I'd keep the same back row with POM on the bench, I think the tactics are the real problem.


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    #126
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    I think POM could be a better 7 than Ronan, his performance there against Northampton and there was another in the pro12 would suggest he has the talents to play there. But he is a natural 6, that is true.

    It was against Aironi. Not exactly a basis for deciding international quality.

    I'd also be slightly concerned with his tendency to get injured. He seems to go into contact a bit poorly.


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    #127
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    The idea that POM is ahead of Henry is laughable but that is just the nature of the Irish management these days.

    As for DOM Ryan, he is projecting to 7 now. He's an excellent open field defender who is strong over the ball. His breakdown play was getting better and better all the time before his injury. He is probably.the best young 7 in the country at the moment until Gilsenan, Coneely or Birch develop.


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    #128
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I have no idea where this idea that POM provides "balance" to the backrow has come from. He was behind the monster that is Niall Ronan at 7. He's played only 2 or 3 games there. He's no more a 7 then SOB is, and SOB has a lot more going for him in other areas. Ferris/SOB/Heaslip remain our best backrow. Ireland's problem is not the lack of a "proper 7" it's the entire approach to the ruck area.

    well said.

    i'm afraid George Hook's hysterical post match comments calling for POM are being taken on board by some. POM's a good player, possibly he'll be a great player, but he's not a 7 and he's certainly not going to make a jot of a difference if we play with the same tactics in Paris as we did last weekend.


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    #129
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The idea that POM is ahead of Henry is laughable but that is just the nature of the Irish management these days.

    As for DOM Ryan, he is projecting to 7 now. He's an excellent open field defender who is strong over the ball. His breakdown play was getting better and better all the time before his injury. He is probably.the best young 7 in the country at the moment until Gilsenan, Coneely or Birch develop.

    who's Birch?

    Coneely looked very good last friday night (as did the welsh 7), great linkman.


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    #130
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    bamboozle wrote: »
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The idea that POM is ahead of Henry is laughable but that is just the nature of the Irish management these days.

    As for DOM Ryan, he is projecting to 7 now. He's an excellent open field defender who is strong over the ball. His breakdown play was getting better and better all the time before his injury. He is probably.the best young 7 in the country at the moment until Gilsenan, Coneely or Birch develop.

    who's Birch?

    Coneely looked very good last friday night (as did the welsh 7), great linkman.
    Ali Birch. Ulster 7 who was probably the best back row (possibly forward) when Ulster sent their B&I team to their doom in the RDS.


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    #131
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    It was against Aironi. Not exactly a basis for deciding international quality.

    I'd also be slightly concerned with his tendency to get injured. He seems to go into contact a bit poorly.
    His ball carrying technique is one of the standout reasons he shouldn't be playing international rugby yet. He'll concede more turnovers than he secures (as he has done in most games so far) and could well get injured again.

    Of course George Hook doesn't know any of this because he barely watches the game.


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    #132
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lads, I don't know where the Dom Ryan love is coming from. I thought he was excellent last season, but he didn't play a fetcher's game very often. Yes he's more of a "7777" than SOB or Ruddock, but he's definitely in the "all-rounder" category more so than as a specialist openside imo.

    I think he'll get there, but even if he wasn't injured this season, I reckon that this 6N would still have come too early for him.

    It's quite funny tbh, the amount of work that Heaslip and SOB do at the breakdown allows Ferris to be available when they play 678. Any adjustment to those 3 is going to result in a very similar setup, and we'll be cursing the inclusion of the AN Other.

    A fetcher doesn't hit every ruck, a fetcher doesn't win every ball. Watch Tipuric (another star in the making imo) last week, he possibly "intervened" in 2/3 rucks maximum.

    This "Pod" system that we're trying to use to reset clean ball is bull****, and causing us more problems than the defence.


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    #133
    d-gal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭d-gal


    Deleted User wrote: »


    It's quite funny tbh, the amount of work that Heaslip and SOB do at the breakdown allows Ferris to be available when they play 678. Any adjustment to those 3 is going to result in a very similar setup, and we'll be cursing the inclusion of the AN Other./QUOTE]

    Is there any stats available for this? I thought SOB hit a decent amount of rucks but Heaslip was out in the backs for half the match. Ferris seemed in and out a lot and unfortunately was pretty annonymous compared to the Welsh backrow


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    #134
    the juice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭the juice


    O Brien made the most amount of tackles which explains why he didn't make all the bullocking runs everyone wants him to make; Heaslip made 11 tackles which was 5th highest in the team behind, wait for it POC, D'arcy and McFadden;

    He made the same amt of tackles as Conor Murray who was excellent defensively according to most posters here;

    I dunno how Heaslip could make all those tackles while hes "hiding" on the wing.

    I do agrre on Ferris though; he had one to forget even before "that" tackle; The welsh seem to have his number.


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    #135
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    the juice wrote: »
    O Brien made the most amount of tackles which explains why he didn't make all the bullocking runs everyone wants him to make; Heaslip made 11 tackles which was 5th highest in the team behind, wait for it POC, D'arcy and McFadden;

    He made the same amt of tackles as Conor Murray who was excellent defensively according to most posters here;

    I dunno how Heaslip could make all those tackles while hes "hiding" on the wing.

    I do agrre on Ferris though; he had one to forget even before "that" tackle; The welsh seem to have his number.

    Whose stats are you quoting? I don't think they're an official set. ESPN perhaps?
    The stats I was breezing through on Sunday evening at stadium showed Heaslip just one completed tackle behind O'Brien who had 19 under his belt.


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    #136
    the juice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭the juice


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Whose stats are you quoting? I don't think they're an official set. ESPN perhaps?
    The stats I was breezing through on Sunday evening at stadium showed Heaslip just one completed tackle behind O'Brien who had 19 under his belt.

    Im stuck with just the crap ESPN which while usually wide off the mark do get the odd stat correct; i said 18 with ESPN you qouted 19 on the official line so not far off there;

    Either way its plain as day O' Brien spent the game tackling everything around him as did Heaslip and to a lesser extent D'arcy and McFadden.


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    #137
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Whose stats are you quoting? I don't think they're an official set. ESPN perhaps?
    The stats I was breezing through on Sunday evening at stadium showed Heaslip just one completed tackle behind O'Brien who had 19 under his belt.

    I presume that you wouldn't be able to get a copy of the official stats for us after matches? They might be too in-depth to release to us plebs but, I'm sure they'd be a great and reliable read.


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    #138
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    I presume that you wouldn't be able to get a copy of the official stats for us after matches? They might be too in-depth to release to us plebs but, I'm sure they'd be a great and reliable read.

    Afraid not. I'm lucky enough myself to get a look in.


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    #139
    rugbyman2015
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭rugbyman2015


    Have spotted a couple of 'sevens' in the Leinster schools cup this year. Anyone seen Paddy Thornton from Terenure and and Jack O'Neill from Castleknock in action?

    Both were pacy, good link men and were good at slowing down ball while also having the ability to carry ball themselves.


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    #140
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    rugbyman2015 wrote: »
    Have spotted a couple of 'sevens' in the Leinster schools cup this year. Anyone seen Paddy Thornton from Terenure and and Jack O'Neill from Castleknock in action?

    Both were pacy, good link men and were good at slowing down ball while also having the ability to carry ball themselves.

    Must watch the Nure game and look out for him. Saw O'Neill and was impressed. Didn't turn over much ball but he must have had his back bent about 10 or 12 times trying to, plus he's pacey too.


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    #141
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Seems like a fairly academic point for now anyway. We don't really seem to produce any natural 7's so we should do what all winning sides do and play with what we have got and impose our game plan on other teams. If this was a case of the Irish management not picking an obvious choice at 7 it might be a valid point but since we don't have a McCaw, Pocock or warburton available or in the pipeline it seems like a better idea to devise gameplans around what we do have.


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    #142
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    From what everyone has been saying, Conor Gilsenan and Aaron Coneely have serious potential at 7. I know itd be another 4 years or so before either would get a look into the senior squad but having 2 pure 7's coming through the u20's might ease this problem in the future.
    Maybe Dominic Ryan could do a job there for a while too.


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    #143
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    rugbyman2015 wrote: »
    Have spotted a couple of 'sevens' in the Leinster schools cup this year. Anyone seen Paddy Thornton from Terenure and and Jack O'Neill from Castleknock in action?

    Both were pacy, good link men and were good at slowing down ball while also having the ability to carry ball themselves.

    Just watched it again there. Thornton was good in the areas you said but I thought he was pretty anonymous in at the breakdown. Didn't turn over any ball and didn't really try to. He still had a good game, but I didn't see any of the scavenger qualities from him.


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    #144
    rugbyman2015
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭rugbyman2015


    Sam Warburton certainly highlighted his significant value to Wales again today with a super defensive performance against England.

    Then we have Peter O'Mahoney making his debut off the bench against Italy in place of Sean O'Brien. How do people think he fared?

    Could O'Mahoney push O'Brien out of the starting team?


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    #145
    skregs
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    rugbyman2015 wrote: »
    Could O'Mahoney push O'Brien out of the starting team?

    No. Despite what people desperately want to believe, he's a Leamy style 6/7/8 flanker rather than an out and out 7 like Wally.

    We need a player who plays 7 all the time for his club, has the speed necessary and ability to turnover ruck ball and catch attacking oppostion.
    An unspecialised player is never going to be an incredible OS.

    Heaslip plays 8 for Leinster and Ireland, Ferris plays 6 for Ulster and Ireland.
    It's stupid to have SOB playing blind for Leinster, spending the year building strength and practising breaks then expect him to play 7 for Ireland.


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    #146
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    skregs wrote: »
    rugbyman2015 wrote: »
    Could O'Mahoney push O'Brien out of the starting team?

    No. Despite what people desperately want to believe, he's a Leamy style 6/7/8 flanker rather than an out and out 7 like Wally.

    We need a player who plays 7 all the time for his club, has the speed necessary and ability to turnover ruck ball and catch attacking oppostion.
    An unspecialised player is never going to be an incredible OS.

    Heaslip plays 8 for Leinster and Ireland, Ferris plays 6 for Ulster and Ireland.
    It's stupid to have SOB playing blind for Leinster, spending the year building strength and practising breaks then expect him to play 7 for Ireland.
    O'Brien plays 7 for Leinster. He won European player of the year playing 7 in Leinsters HEC games last season and he has been playing there again this season.

    Hes just a different type of 7.


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    #147
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    A Ross Rennie clone would be useful.


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    #148
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,988 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I think POM coming on as early as he did will serve to light a fire under SOB and I fully expect him to come out smashing lads in Paris.


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    #149
    rugbyman2015
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭rugbyman2015


    Agree that POM is not really the full package at 7. I think our back row will stay the way it is for a while unless some Pocock/Warburton like player comes out of the under age system in a few years time.

    How did Gilsenan do for the U20's against Italy the other night? Didn't get to see the match as it wasn't televised on tv.


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    #150
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    skregs wrote: »
    No. Despite what people desperately want to believe, he's a Leamy style 6/7/8 flanker rather than an out and out 7 like Wally.

    We need a player who plays 7 all the time for his club, has the speed necessary and ability to turnover ruck ball and catch attacking oppostion.
    An unspecialised player is never going to be an incredible OS.

    Heaslip plays 8 for Leinster and Ireland, Ferris plays 6 for Ulster and Ireland.
    It's stupid to have SOB playing blind for Leinster, spending the year building strength and practising breaks then expect him to play 7 for Ireland.

    He is nothing like Leamy and Wallace isn't "an out and out 7". If he is to be compared with anyone from the recent Irish setup, it would be a young Quinlan (who was often a 7 afaik).

    A 7 doesn't need to turnover ruckball, a player capable of making a nuisance of themselves and slowing down ball is just as relevant. POM is that type of player. He has plenty enough pace to be a very successful 7. He has even turned out for Con on the wing when returning from injury.

    SOB could well have played more professional rugby at 7 than 6. The problem is that now that he is no longer in a purple patch of form, the deficiencies in his game as a 7 are standing out.


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    #151
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    O'Brien plays 7 for Leinster. He won European player of the year playing 7 in Leinsters HEC games last season and he has been playing there again this season.

    Hes just a different type of 7.

    That's not exactly true though is it? O'Brien played 3 games in the Heinken Cup at 7, and in those games, Jennings would come on in or around half-time at which point he's move back to 6. He played 4 games at blindside and 2 games at 8 and it's safe to say he was much more impressive in those games.


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