Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

Rikand · 05-07-2014 10:10pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

You cannot do that. It would be disqualification for both players if they decided to do so.

I think if its between two players and the competition secretary is open to it, then anything is possible.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 10:11pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

Would you have rescheduled a rematch if he had not acted the bollix?

I would have left it up to the committee but as far as I'm concerned he broke the rules of golf whether knowingly or unknowingly only he can say.

I would rather play the guy he beat in the 1st round, as I don't believe I deserve to be in the next round by default so it's the fairest solution in my opinion.

Russman · 05-07-2014 10:12pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

To be fair I dont think anyone is justifying pulling someone on a rules infringement in order to win. As if they are unreasonably ruthless amoral human beings.
But those in favour of it, are advocating doing so because being the rule, it is the right thing to do.

Agree, but on reading it, rule 2-5 (note 1) would appear to give those with "moral" objections to doing this, a way out within the rules, which seems fair enough IMO.

SaveOurLyric · 05-07-2014 10:13pm

Rikand wrote: »

I think if its between two players and the competition secretary is open to it, then anything is possible.

Yes. But the point is the competition secretary must make the ruling. The players themselves doing so without that approval is them breaking the rule, and so dq.

And in this case, it is open and shut. No committee could correctly sanction a rematch.

Russman · 05-07-2014 10:15pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

when you're playing with someone else you have an obligation to the integrity of the game and others that are playing in the competition to call your playing partner on any rules infringements if they don't call themselves.

In stroke play, yes. Not necessarily in match play.

Slicemeister · 05-07-2014 10:16pm

Fair enough. Interesting one for the secretary Monday morning! You weren't wrong in what you did.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 10:16pm

Russman wrote: »

In stroke play, yes. Not necessarily in match play.

In club matchplay yes, if he goes on to next round using an illegal driver potentially wins it, is that fair on the other competitors?

John Divney · 05-07-2014 10:19pm

If you had left it til the end people would say sour grapes, only spoke up when he lost 2 and 1, should have mentioned it when you realised etc etc.

It's match play, you did the right thing, either speak up right then or just forget it til after and say look get rid of that and say no more.

It was the correct way to do it, there were 9 holes left and both parties knew that there was an issue to sort out at the end, he should have said fair enough we'll google it in the clubhouse , zero need for a hissy fit.

Waiting til the match was over would have been way poorer sportsmanship

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 10:22pm

John Divney wrote: »

If you had left it til the end people would say sour grapes, only spoke up when he lost 2 and 1, should have mentioned it when you realised etc etc.

It's match play, you did the right thing, either speak up right then or just forget it til after and say look get rid of that and say no more.

It was the correct way to do it, there were 9 holes left and both parties knew that there was an issue to sort out at the end, he should have said fair enough we'll google it in the clubhouse , zero need for a hissy fit.

Waiting til the match was over would have been way poorer sportsmanship

Yeah that was my thinking, I said it when I was as certain as I could be. I guess people could say that I was 3 down at that stage trying to get in his head etc, but I thought it was best to raise my concern as soon as I was sure.

Russman · 05-07-2014 10:22pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

In club matchplay yes, if he goes on to next round using an illegal driver potentially wins it, is that fair on the other competitors?

It's up to each player he plays to decide for themselves whether to call him on anything, not up to you or me or anyone else to decide. That's why match play often has subtly different rule applications to stroke play. Why is there an "out" (at least to my reading of it) in Rule 2-5 ?

Rikand · 05-07-2014 10:26pm

btw, I dont want anyone to think that I think what you did was wrong. It wasnt and you were well within your rights. In fact, I'd say you are within rights to claim the match and move through to the next round.

I just wouldnt have done it

Russman · 05-07-2014 10:29pm

Rikand wrote: »

btw, I dont want anyone to think that I think what you did was wrong. It wasnt and you were well within your rights. In fact, I'd say you are within rights to claim the match and move through to the next round.

I just wouldnt have done it

Exactly my position too.

namloc1980 · 05-07-2014 10:31pm

Rikand wrote: »

btw, I dont want anyone to think that I think what you did was wrong. It wasnt and you were well within your rights. In fact, I'd say you are within rights to claim the match and move through to the next round.

I just wouldnt have done it

Where would you draw the line on rules breaches by other players?

SaveOurLyric · 05-07-2014 10:36pm

Rikand wrote: »

btw, I dont want anyone to think that I think what you did was wrong. It wasnt and you were well within your rights. In fact, I'd say you are within rights to claim the match and move through to the next round.

I just wouldnt have done it

If he won the match, would you (accepting your defeat as you say), then inform him that he must not play that club competition again ? Informing his opponent in the next round to check he had listened to you would seem just and fair to that next opponent.

FixdePitchmark · 05-07-2014 10:38pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Where would you draw the line on rules breaches by other players?

There is a major difference - in a deliberate breach of rules and non conforming equipment that was previously legal when purchased and the equipment is a disadvantage to the individual and the change of rule is obscure and perhaps unknown to the individual, you not 100 % sure yourself, you losing your match, you knowing it had no impact on outcome.

It is not black and white.

People will say it is the rules - they are black and white , but unusual situations arise in all walks of life. This was a very unusual event.

Russman · 05-07-2014 10:38pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Where would you draw the line on rules breaches by other players?

Personally speaking if it was matchplay I would use my judgement as permitted under the rules:

Rule 2-5
Note 1 "A player may disregard a breach of the Rules by his opponent provided there is no agreement by the sides to waive a Rule (Rule 1-3)."

John Divney · 05-07-2014 10:45pm

Yeah, but only if he bins the Driver right then for the rest of the round. You can't waive the rules, just a breach.

SaveOurLyric · 05-07-2014 10:45pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

It is not black and white.

People will say it is the rules - they are black and white , but unusual situations arise in all walks of life. This was a very unusual event.

I do think it is black and white. Being unusual just means that the vaste majority of people observe the rule, and that is not for me, grounds to give it any leeway.
Golf can have rules that are indeed unusual. Ones that are true one-offs and not forseen or catered for in the rules. Or even the Decisions. In effect, the Decisions are an accumulation of these unusual oddities. But the conforming club issue is a rule - obscure to many maybe - but yes black and white nonetheless.

Rikand · 05-07-2014 10:46pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

If he won the match, would you (accepting your defeat as you say), then inform him that he must not play that club competition again ? Informing his opponent in the next round to check he had listened to you would seem just and fair to that next opponent.

If you meant to say " That club in competition again "

then yes, I would agree with all of this.

SaveOurLyric · 05-07-2014 10:49pm

Rikand wrote: »

If you meant to say " That club in competition again "

then yes, I would agree with all of this.

Yes, 'in' omitted in error.

Russman · 05-07-2014 10:49pm

John Divney wrote: »

Yeah, but only if he bins the Driver right then for the rest of the round. You can't waive the rules, just a breach.

Fair enough, I wouldn't disagree with that. Wait til you hit off a par 3 or the next hole where he doesn't use the driver, and bring it up.
That said, if you kept schtum for the whole round you're probably still within the rules yourself. Depends then on how comfortable you are bringing up a breach like a non conforming club. As I said the Op did absolutely nothing wrong, but had he done nothing, he still wouldn't be wrong.

slave1 · 06-07-2014 12:35am

When's the last time we've all checked our grooves? Years old irons not maintained could be deemed illegal as are certain X'd balls IIRC.

Anyhow, it appears OP you needed a few holes to make yourself certain before making a comment and your man should have taken it as within your rights, kept his mouth shut and got on with it, a comment on 18 along the lines of "I disagree with what you said but let's move on" and a handshake would have been more appropriate.
Whether you like it or not I'd say your rep at that club has taken a nose dive (rightly or wrongly).

Regarding playing the loser of the first round, you can't be CERTAIN he used that club and in any case that result is (rightly or wrongly) final, it may make you feel better to have this option but it really ain't open to you.
If his club was illegal then it's open and shut, he's DQ and that should be the end of it, if it was me I honestly would not have the knowledge to know this and be able to point it out and if it was pointed out to me then I'd be mortified but not lose the head, take it on the chin and move on.
PS that driver may have been a difference, without it he may not have been in position to make approaches etc., it's not all about distance.

Interesting to see how this one pans out, that's for certain.

PARlance · 06-07-2014 7:15am

Rikand wrote: »

btw, I dont want anyone to think that I think what you did was wrong. It wasnt and you were well within your rights. In fact, I'd say you are within rights to claim the match and move through to the next round.

I just wouldnt have done it

I wouldn't have either...up until the point where he acted like a pr1ck. I think I'd really consider a change after that.

I think OP missed a trick, if the guy lost the plot and I changed my mind. Then I would leave the onus on him to DQ himself or not.
The OP is prob going to be tarnished unfortunately, I'd prefer to leave the responsibility with the cheat and let him go down as the lad who didn't DQ himself when he should.

Also, IF it got to the stage (and that's only if he was acting the maggot), I think I would give my next opponent a bye.

Senecio · 06-07-2014 7:40am

Firstly, there is no excuse for using a non conforming driver today. The R&A publish the list (1,165 pages!) of conforming drivers for everyone to see with pictures to help you identify your model. If you are still using one today, you can't claim ignorance. I also believe that today's conforming drivers perform better.

To tell him was the right thing to do. The tough decision was whether to call it on the 10th, effectively ending the match there, or wait to the end. I personally would have waited to the end hoping that I could beat him under my own steam. Even then I would have accepted the loss but mentioned to him that he should check the R&A website before using that driver again. In fact even if I was suspicious, I wouldn't have asked to have a closer look until after the match was finished.

doublej · 06-07-2014 8:47am

Then you're not playing golf, you're hitting a ball with a stick!

Rikand · 06-07-2014 8:59am

PARlance wrote: »

I wouldn't have either...up until the point where he acted like a pr1ck. I think I'd really consider a change after that.

Yeah, but he wouldnt have acted like a pr1ck until the OP quizzed him on his driver. Up till the point, as far as we know, he was a regular guy!

SaveOurLyric · 06-07-2014 11:23am

Rikand wrote: »

Yeah, but he wouldnt have acted like a pr1ck until the OP quizzed him on his driver. Up till the point, as far as we know, he was a regular guy!

No. Up until that point he was a pr1ck whose pr1ckness just hadnt been revealed.

Golfnut77 · 06-07-2014 11:25am

Russman wrote: »

It's up to each player he plays to decide for themselves whether to call him on anything, not up to you or me or anyone else to decide. That's why match play often has subtly different rule applications to stroke play. Why is there an "out" (at least to my reading of it) in Rule 2-5 ?

"Rule 2-5 holds that rules claims must be lodged before the match tees off on the next hole", I was certain walking off the 10th tee that he was using a non conforming driver and so raised my concern there and then.

Golfnut77 · 06-07-2014 11:27am

Rikand wrote: »

btw, I dont want anyone to think that I think what you did was wrong. It wasnt and you were well within your rights. In fact, I'd say you are within rights to claim the match and move through to the next round.

I just wouldnt have done it

Why not? I am shocked at the amount of people on this thread that would do nothing when they see a competitor infringing the rules.

Golfnut77 · 06-07-2014 11:28am

Senecio wrote: »

Firstly, there is no excuse for using a non conforming driver today. The R&A publish the list (1,165 pages!) of conforming drivers for everyone to see with pictures to help you identify your model. If you are still using one today, you can't claim ignorance. I also believe that today's conforming drivers perform better.

Exactly and anyone who decides to play in competitions they are subject to the rules of the game and if they don't abide by them they should be penalised.

Russman · 06-07-2014 1:19pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

"Rule 2-5 holds that rules claims must be lodged before the match tees off on the next hole", I was certain walking off the 10th tee that he was using a non conforming driver and so raised my concern there and then.

And you did absolutely nothing wrong per the rules. My point is that you also had the option, within the rules, to do nothing. That you didn't take the option is in no way a criticism of you, you were 100% correct. Personally I would have taken the other route, and also would still have been correct. I can only assume that whoever wrote the rules realised that certain situations could arise in a match whereby a competitor might feel it best, all things considered, not to penalise an opponent for a breach, by simply saying nothing, while also IMO safeguarding the integrity of the competition by stipulating that it's wrong for competitors to agree to ignore a rule. Presumably the assumption follows that competitors are able to use their judgement, in match play, when/if they should call someone on something. Eg kicking the ball Vs a non-conforming club that the guy may or may not know about.
Your opponent behaved like a d1ck, no question, and I suspect he knew full well about the driver, I've no sympathy for him at all.

DuckSlice · 06-07-2014 10:51pm

Any update of this OP?

Larry Wildman · 06-07-2014 10:58pm

The OP has done nothing wrong. The driver is illegal - Any members of his club that blackball him for calling it are clowns.

Personally I would have said nothing and tried to win the match with a view to warning him afterwards but if I'd lost I'd have claimed the match anyway.

Dayor Knight · 06-07-2014 11:55pm

ForeRight wrote: »

If you are certain it's illegal you should have asked about it the minute you had suspicions. I think waiting until you did and being 3 down was a mistake on your part even though you are probably correct.

If it's illegal it's illegal end of. The fact he went so bananas makes me think he already knows it himself.

Yeah, the very fact he went on a rant suggests he knew damn well he was in the wrong. Basically, you caught him out. Well done. Good on you (o.p.) for having the courage to say it.

Kace · 07-07-2014 12:19am

Some additional opinions on a similar situation with the exact same driver here - http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/728707-opponent-using-non-conforming-driver/

Rikand · 07-07-2014 12:32am

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

No. Up until that point he was a pr1ck whose pr1ckness just hadnt been revealed.

Ha. Touché

ForeRight · 07-07-2014 1:30am

Jay that's a tough read above. It's one big giant sentence.

Anyway I don't understand why your round was frosty when he gave you back your clubs after 2 1/2 years? What happened to make it frosty?

Also I think you were bang out of order bringing up an issue after nearly 3 years just because you had the hump with the guy for whatever reasons. Especially due to the fact that at the time you clearly knew he was using an illegal driver yet didn't say anything.

Once you decided not to say anything then that should have been that on your part IMO.

Tom.D.BJJ · 07-07-2014 8:09am

The opponents reaction tells me that he knew his driver was illegal. So he's a liar and a cheat.

Montgolfier · 07-07-2014 9:08am

Any ruling made yet, just about to buy one on done deal?

the lawman · 07-07-2014 9:40am

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

The opponents reaction tells me that he knew his driver was illegal. So he's a liar and a cheat.

I think its a bit harsh using language like that against a chap that we know nothing about, apart from what the OP says.

For all we know he didn't know about the driver but his personality trait makes him lose his temper during confrontations. Or he is a liar and a cheat and he reacted like that because of this fact. Admittedly the evidence does lean towards the latter.

Hard to know though and it would be good for balance if he came on here and had a right of reply.

big_drive · 07-07-2014 9:47am

Out of interest would the driver improve quality of shot? Better distance, etc.
or what is it that actually makes them illegal?

GreeBo · 07-07-2014 10:01am

big_drive wrote: »

Out of interest would the driver improve quality of shot? Better distance, etc.
or what is it that actually makes them illegal?

It has a slight higher trampoline effect on the face (C.O.R of 0.83 where the limit is new 0.8) so in testing the same swing will make it go further.

Made sod all difference to me, I switched to the conforming version (free from Cobra) years ago and no noticeable difference whatsoever.

Golfnut77 · 07-07-2014 10:17am

Competition secretary got back to me this morning, he said it would indeed constitute disqualification, however he contacted my opponent and he has denied using the driver saying he had a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver and the burden of proof is on me to show otherwise.

Astonished at his complete lack of integrity,from what could have been dismissed as just not knowing the rules, learning from it and moving on he has now crossed the line to outright lying and cheating. Obviously there's no way that I can prove that he used the driver, I held it in my hands and know for a fact it was the non conforming Cobra so essentially it's now my word against his and the Comp secretary said he has no option but to let the result stand.

John Divney · 07-07-2014 10:24am

What about the pro, did he not verify the situation? Why would somebody go off shouting over a headcover,

The guy should be given a ban from competitions

Golfnut77 · 07-07-2014 10:27am

John Divney wrote: »

What about the pro, did he not verify the situation? Why would somebody go off shouting over a headcover,

The guy should be given a ban from competitions

The pro wasn't there at the time it was just a member of staff, I don't think he showed them the driver so they couldn't verify it was the Cobra he just went in saying that I have accused him of cheating.

John Divney · 07-07-2014 10:34am

Golfnut77 wrote: »

The pro wasn't there at the time it was just a member of staff, I don't think he showed them the driver so they couldn't verify it was the Cobra he just went in saying that I have accused him of cheating.

But there is no logic to his claim if the member of staff verifies this. He went in saying he was accused of cheating over a conversation that would never have taken place , if as he claims it was only a headcover. You would have seen the driver and moved on.

Tell them to talk to the guy who was working, that should be more than enough, on the balance of probabilities that he is a liar.

the lawman · 07-07-2014 10:35am

the lawman wrote: »

I think its a bit harsh using language like that against a chap that we know nothing about, apart from what the OP says.

For all we know he didn't know about the driver but his personality trait makes him lose his temper during confrontations. Or he is a liar and a cheat and he reacted like that because of this fact. Admittedly the evidence does lean towards the latter.

Hard to know though and it would be good for balance if he came on here and had a right of reply.

I regret this now! He sounds like a right piece of work.

Real unlucky to have drawn him OP.

Russman · 07-07-2014 10:36am

Wow ! That's a big line for him to cross, outright dishonesty.

I know I said I wouldn't have done what you did and that's still the case, but you were still right too.

Hard to know what to do now Op, that would annoy me so much that out of sheer thickness I'd probably force the committee to convene some sort of hearing/meeting and have both parties give their side of the story and let them make a call on it. You'd almost certainly get no joy out of it, but maybe someone would ask the question, "why is this guy doing this if its not true ?" and certainly the membership would hear through the grapevine what's happening, rather than just hearing that you claimed x,y,z in a match.

Purely if it was me, I'd be looking at another club for next year too.

ForeRight · 07-07-2014 10:37am

Oh my word this guy is a disgrace!!!!

He is slandering you in your club now by saying you have made up this allegation in order to win.
All after he showed you the driver during the round, I'm absolutely stunned here.

I do think the way this has got very messy is due to the fact that you handled it quite poorly at the time though unfortunately.

However I 100% would not be letting this go now if I was you. This bloke is an out an out juanker of the highest order!!!!

Wombatman · 07-07-2014 10:47am

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Competition secretary got back to me this morning, he said it would indeed constitute disqualification, however he contacted my opponent and he has denied using the driver saying he had a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver and the burden of proof is on me to show otherwise.

Astonished at his complete lack of integrity,from what could have been dismissed as just not knowing the rules, learning from it and moving on he has now crossed the line to outright lying and cheating. Obviously there's no way that I can prove that he used the driver, I held it in my hands and know for a fact it was the non conforming Cobra so essentially it's now my word against his and the Comp secretary said he has no option but to let the result stand.

Don't want to be the one to say I told you so but....

Wombatman wrote: »

Could easily turn into a he said\she said in which case I wouldn't fancy OPs chances. My bet is that he turns up with a Cobra 440 sz at enquiry, one that doesn't say 'unlimited'on it.

I would have gotten another club member as a witness before the guy left.

Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

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