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Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

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  • 05-07-2014 1:41pm
    #1
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭


    Wondering if ye can give me some advice.

    Played yesterday in the club matchplay singles, the guy I played against was using an old Cobra driver the King Cobra 440 SZ Unlimited to be exact.

    I had suspicions early on in the round, since I know that's one of the most notorious of the illegal drivers. He was 3 up thru 9 and after teeing off the 10th I asked if I could have a look at his driver, so I see that its the 440 SZ Unlimited and I tell him I'm almost certain that it is non conforming. This leads to an expletive filled rant, and how dare I accuse him of cheating. We finish out the match he won 2 & 1, no shaking hands, he storms off to the pro shop and goes off on another rant of how I called him a cheater etc.

    I have contacted the competition secretary as I would imagine he is disqualified and I should be through to the next round or am I wrong? Still no reply from competition secretary.

    Maybe I should have waited until after the round until I brought it up but can't change that now.

    Am I in the wrong?
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    #2
    Woodgate
    Registered Users Posts: 773 ✭✭✭Woodgate


    I wouldn't think you are in the wrong if you are 100% sure on the model of driver, as he should be DQ'd if it's an illegal club. How many comps & matchplays has this guy competed in or even won using an illegal club. You are totally right to report this, like I said earlier, once you're sure about the club.


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    #3
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    100% sure. He's been using it for years no doubt, the worst thing is there's no way he's the only one at my club using a non conforming driver, there's loads of them I'd imagine.

    As I said to him it's his obligation that his clubs conform to the rules of golf that were applicable to our match.


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    #4
    ForeRight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    If you are certain it's illegal you should have asked about it the minute you had suspicions. I think waiting until you did and being 3 down was a mistake on your part even though you are probably correct.

    If it's illegal it's illegal end of. The fact he went so bananas makes me think he already knows it himself.


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    #5
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    ForeRight wrote: »
    If you are certain it's illegal you should have asked about it the minute you had suspicions. I think waiting until you did and being 3 down was a mistake on your part even though you are probably correct.

    If it's illegal it's illegal end of. The fact he went so bananas makes me think he already knows it himself.

    Ya, I see what you mean but I didn't want to say anything until I was sure. I think the timing was partially the reason for his reaction as he probably felt I was trying to unsettle him with what he says is a "false allegation".


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    #6
    dar_cool
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭dar_cool


    Fair play for bringing it up but probably bad timing. He should be disqualified, it's like carrying an extra club in the bag


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    #7
    ForeRight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    Out of interest what was said in the club house about this when the bloke went in ranting and raving?


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    #8
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    It was into the Pro Shop he went, I suggested we ask the Pro what the ruling would be so he went in but the Pro wasn't on it was a member of staff that would be friendly with the guy I played against so I didn't want to put that member of staff who isn't a golfer or familiar with the rules in the middle of this.

    I just told him that I'll contact the competition secretary, sent him an email yesterday and suggested that I should play against the guy that he beat in the first round as I can only assume he was using the driver for that match too.


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    #9
    m r c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 802 ✭✭✭m r c


    Illegal club, he's dq'd end of.


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    #10
    John Divney
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    The reaction seems like he knew it wasn't conforming, no reasonable person would go off on one like that if they didn't, they would be taken aback and say sorry, genuine mistake, DQ'd, or say fine, we'll check it out after the match.


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    #11
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Could easily turn into a he said\she said in which case I wouldn't fancy OPs chances. My bet is that he turns up with a Cobra 440 sz at enquiry, one that doesn't say 'unlimited'on it.

    I would have gotten another club member as a witness before the guy left.


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    #12
    FixdePitchmark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,773 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Where can I get one of these drivers for Monday.


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    #13
    John Divney
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    Where can I get one of these drivers for Monday.

    If you stand around outside a clubhouse for long enough you will be offered a non-conforming Driver. Country has gone to the dogs...


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    #14
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    Where can I get one of these drivers for Monday.

    http://www.donedeal.ie/golf-for-sale/king-cobra-driver-for-sale/7181674


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    #15
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that ?
    Golf is a game of rules certainly, but it is also a game of spirit and good sportsmanship.
    Have you never knowingly turned a blind eye to someone who is breaking a rule?
    I sure have and will continue to


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    #16
    John Divney
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that ?
    Golf is a game of rules certainly, but it is also a game of spirit and good sportsmanship.
    Have you never knowingly turned a blind eye to someone who is breaking a rule?
    I sure have and will continue to

    Yes integrity too, if he didn't know it was banned, he should have behaved a bit better than to run off going ape, the OP should defo follow up. I doubt he wants to be in such an awkward position.

    15 clubs is a mistake an unfortunate, this is way more sinister


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    #17
    FixdePitchmark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,773 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    I know this will go down a bomb.

    I wouldn't have said it to him during game , and may have let it go. It realistically had no impact on game. I honestly could see somebody having that driver and not know.
    If I was bringing it up, I would have after , joked about it and give him friendly advice. To check out driver.


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    #18
    John Divney
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    What were his irons out of interst? Newer gear and an old trampolene of a Driver would be a bit suspect. But I wouldn't have known, couldn't name one banned driver, people just don't play with them in this era of new Drivers out every two weeks.


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    #19
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    I know this will go down a bomb.

    I wouldn't have said it to him during game , and may have let it go. It realistically had no impact on game. I honestly could see somebody having that driver and not know.
    If I was bringing it up, I would have after , joked about it and give him friendly advice. To check out driver.

    No impact on the game. Lol. Maybe they were banned for having no impact on the game.

    Would have offered him a reply at another date if I felt it was a genuine mistake and the guy hadn't behaved like a cnut.


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    #20
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that ?
    Golf is a game of rules certainly, but it is also a game of spirit and good sportsmanship.
    Have you never knowingly turned a blind eye to someone who is breaking a rule?
    I sure have and will continue to

    I agree, the driver didnt make much of a difference it's not like he was 100 yards ahead of me. His short game was the difference but the fact remains he used an illegal club and should be dq'd.

    I have offered to play the guy that he beat in the 1st round, I think that's fair.


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    #21
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    John Divney wrote: »
    What were his irons out of interst? Newer gear and an old trampolene of a Driver would be a bit suspect. But I wouldn't have known, couldn't name one banned driver, people just don't play with them in this era of new Drivers out every two weeks.

    They were Titleist DCI I believe.


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    #22
    FixdePitchmark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,773 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Wombatman wrote: »
    No impact on the game. Lol. Maybe they were banned for having no impact on the game.

    Would have offered him a reply at another date if I felt it was a genuine mistake and the guy hadn't behaved like a cnut.

    How would it impact on game. Why lol.
    I'd say it could impact on maybe 1/100 games and only small chance it would have an impact in match play.

    Maybe op can say if this had impact on match ?

    You would want to be 100 % sure it was intentional. And even catching him was a big enough victory.

    You could follow up and make sure he is not using it again.

    Asking to look at some bodies equipment mid competition is an unusual act.

    Sure lads nearly have a heart attack if you mention a score.


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    #23
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    How would it impact on game. Why lol.
    I'd say it could impact on maybe 1/100 games and only small chance it would have an impact in match play.

    Maybe op can say if this had impact on match ?

    You would want to be 100 % sure it was intentional. And even catching him was a big enough victory.

    You could follow up and make sure he is not using it again.

    Asking to look at some bodies equipment mid competition is an unusual act.

    Sure lads nearly have a heart attack if you mention a score.

    Didn't impact the match at all, his short game was the difference but that's irrelevant. He used an illegal club and should be DQd.


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    #24
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Russman


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    Didn't impact the match at all, his short game was the difference but that's irrelevant. He used an illegal club and should be DQd.

    You're 100% correct within the rules. but I'm with FixdP on this, personally I would have let it slide, I wouldn't want to win a match this way, especially if it was against a member of the same club as me. Maybe that's just me though.

    About 15/20 years ago a guy in my club called someone up on a 15th club inadvertently in the bag (kids cut down putter or something), and, while he was totally correct, to this day he's still thought of as a bo11ix. Rules are rules but within a club there's unfortunately, at times, a bigger picture to think of.


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    #25
    Macker1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,867 ✭✭✭Macker1


    Rules are Rules and if we begin to choose which ones to follow and others to disregard it will become an even bigger minefield out there. A few years back before I got seriously back into golf I had a Big Berth Driver which I had bought off Ebay. I think the model was a Big Bertha 11 pro series which was a smashing club that I hit very well. The only issue was that on the hosel it clearly stated in print that after 2008 or something back then in was non-conforming. I knew that when I joined a club and got my GUI Handicap that I was no longer going to be able to use that driver. I could have and most likely have never been called on it. But I would be gutted to win a match or competition and then be pulled up on it. Non-conforming clubs are not allowed for a reason and all players need to ensure that they do not breech this rule. As someone earlier said they may well be players unknowingly out there with an illegal club but that isn't a defense when pulled up. The offending player should gracefully accept the disqualification and learn from the mistake. If the player knowingly played with the club then they are just as bad as the hcap bandits that ruin the game for the majority.


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    #26
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Russman wrote: »
    You're 100% correct within the rules. but I'm with FixdP on this, personally I would have let it slide, I wouldn't want to win a match this way, especially if it was against a member of the same club as me. Maybe that's just me though.

    About 15/20 years ago a guy in my club called someone up on a 15th club inadvertently in the bag (kids cut down putter or something), and, while he was totally correct, to this day he's still thought of as a bo11ix. Rules are rules but within a club there's unfortunately, at times, a bigger picture to think of.

    Ya I wouldn't want to go through to the next round on a default that's why I offered to play the guy that he beat in the 1st round.

    Really? I just think it's better to call him on it now, if I let it slide then he could potentially go on and win it, he more than likely wasn't aware that it was non conforming (although he should have been) but at least now he is even if he denies it.


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    #27
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Russman


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    Ya I wouldn't want to go through to the next round on a default that's why I offered to play the guy that he beat in the 1st round.

    Really? I just think it's better to call him on it now, if I let it slide then he could potentially go on and win it, he more than likely wasn't aware that it was non conforming (although he should have been) but at least now he is even if he denies it.

    That's fair enough, but personally if I had to potentially see a guy in the club every weekend for the next 10, 20, 30 years, I wouldn't have said anything, and pretty much taken the view of "so what if goes on and wins it". Moral high ground and being correct is well and good, but people are strange when it comes to certain things and how they're perceived. As I said, maybe that's just me. To be perfectly honest, fellow club member or not, I wouldn't call someone on something like that. If they beat me with their golf, they beat me. Certainly I might have a quiet word after the game just to inform them.


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    #28
    Golfnut77
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Golfnut77


    Russman wrote: »
    That's fair enough, but personally if I had to potentially see a guy in the club every weekend for the next 10, 20, 30 years, I wouldn't have said anything, and pretty much taken the view of "so what if goes on and wins it". Moral high ground and being correct is well and good, but people are strange when it comes to certain things and how they're perceived. As I said, maybe that's just me. To be perfectly honest, fellow club member or not, I wouldn't call someone on something like that. If they beat me with their golf, they beat me. Certainly I might have a quiet word after the game just to inform them.

    I'd rather have the integrity to uphold the rules of the game as much as I can, if that alienates me from a pretentious so and so at my club who thinks he's above it all then so be it. It's not like I confronted him and accused him of cheating I just said 'look I'm almost certain that this is an illegal club', it probably would have been best if I waited until after the round but what's done is done, his reaction made it worse, if he believes it's not an illegal club then fair enough we can look it up afterwards but to go off on me like that was uncalled for.


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    #29
    ForeRight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    For the lads saying they wouldn't say anything to the guy using the illegal driver I'd ask what they would do next year if they played a club matchplay and on the first green the guy pulls out a long anchored putter?


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    #30
    John Divney
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    Golfnut77 wrote: »
    They were Titleist DCI I believe.

    Older than the Driver then or likely same era. Maybe he's just the type to lose the head.


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    #31
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Russman


    ForeRight wrote: »
    For the lads saying they wouldn't say anything to the guy using the illegal driver I'd ask what they would do next year if they played a club matchplay and on the first green the guy pulls out a long anchored putter?

    I'd wait and see if he anchored it when getting ready to use it, and if he did, I'd tell him before he actually hit a shot with it. I wouldn't wait til the 10th. No putter has been made illegal, it's the type of stroke that has been ruled on.


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