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    #62
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Given that the DART service loses money I can't see how it is carrying the Rosslare service. That said, if the DART hadn't been built the Rosslare route - Connolly/Rosslare - would probably have closed throughout.


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    #63
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    TINA1984 wrote: »
    It wouldn't be an end of the road post without a smart comment at the end of it

    listen, i've being using the line for nearly 20 years, so i know what i'm talking about.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    Face the facts, the Rosslare line is kept alive by those who use it the most ie Dublin area commuters,Does that compute with you?

    face what facts, whats that got to do with anything, most of the traffic on much of the lines in ireland is commuter traffic
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    its not the people of Rosslare or Wexford town on the odd trip to the big city keeping the line afloat, its the lads who are using the line day in and day out to commute to Dublin who are keeping the Rosslare line viable.

    is it? really? mixture of both i'd say.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    As such, commuter stock is entirely appropriate.

    how is it, a 29 doing a run to rosslare while an ICR does a run to m3 parkway, so you explain to me how commuter stock designed for short distance high capacity routes is "entirely appropriate" i'l tell you, it isn't, otherwise we'd see a more powerful version of a 29 doing the services to westport and tralee for example.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    We'd all love to have first class carriages, a buffet and a trolley service for all the provincial lines but if the PAX ain't there then there's no point.

    do you think i care a less about a trolly service? do you think i care a less about a first class carrige? now maybe if these things were provided pacs might use the train more but as a start an ICR instead of a 29 would be a major leap forward, we have them most of the time anyway so the removal of the couple of 29 runs is all that needs to happen and it can happen, and it really isn't a big ask
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    As for the 'InterCity' schtick, that's a branding and nothing else. Cork and Belfast are cities, Rosslare and Sligo are not. There are NO major population centres on the Rosslare and Sligo lines once you venture out of the Dublin commuter belt, expecting the same kind of rolling stock as the busy IC lines when most of the paying customers are commuters just isn't logical.

    what are you on about, whats population or population centres got to do with whether an ICR is used or not? most of the paying customers on the majority of lines in this country are commuters, most lines are operated by ICRS doubled up where needs be, a 4 car ICR instead of a 4 car 29 which is being taken away from a service that could do with its design such as maynooth isn't "logical" really? come on now.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    You have to accept that Rosslare harbour isn't important a destination anymore as it was once in the mosts of time, this isn't because of the supposedly inferior rolling stock, but because where possible people will drive to the Port or use easier alternatives such as airports or Dublin or DL ports for their trips abroad

    again, whats that got to do with an intercity railcar over a 29 commuter railcar? as i said intercity railcars are used mostly on this line but need to be at all times.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    no amount of fancy rolling stock or whining about the lack of a "can do"/let someone else pay for it attitude will change this.

    sweet jesus, look, 29s are suburban rolling stock designed for maynooth and other such services, not rosslare. i never mentioned rosslare being an important destination. the "let someone else pay for it attitude" doesn't exist in this thread, ICRS aren't fancy rolling stock either, they are comfortable unlike 2900s, thats all i want.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    There are plenty of closed railway lines around the country with the same profile of the Rosslare and Sligo lines who's populations I'm sure would be absolutely delighted to have the kind of railway service the good people of Enniscorthy, Wexford & Rosslare supposedly have to endure.

    ah yes, the old "well someone else would be delighted with whatever" attitude, a tactic used to silence someone who dares to complain, an example of this is someone saying how someone who goes to a restaurant but gets bad food when they would be happy with decent food nothing fancy, just decent food, shouldn't complain because people are starving. obviously the people on these lines you talk of weren't happy as they went to cars and they had better rolling stock one could argue
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    Like I already said, be grateful for what you have

    and that is why this country is the way it is, people afraid to say anything because they are told they should be greatful, well i won't be greatful, passengers on this line have been treated like second class citizens for years, a 4 car ICR instead of a 4 car 29 is not to much to ask, infact i couldn't care a less about trolly services or even extra services, just a comfortable seat to sit on like other similar services such as westport would be great.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    who knows what the future could bring

    sums up CIE as a whole

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #64
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Given that the DART service loses money I can't see how it is carrying the Rosslare service. That said, if the DART hadn't been built the Rosslare route - Connolly/Rosslare - would probably have closed throughout.
    true, however saying someone should be greatful for only having the same type of train for similar routes to ours (westport for example) some of the time when others such as westport get them all of the time and rightly so is an attitude that gets on my goat JD. the poster is trying to make it out that we want the likes of the de-deitrick stock or the mark 4 stock with first class carriges shops and trolly services running the line which is just not true, we just want a bit of comfort for jesus sake, nothing else

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #65
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    Banjoxed wrote: »
    One of the hallmarks of the Irish abroad is their "Can Do" mentality, precisely because there are so many at home who tell you "You Can't" for whatever reason suits them

    I left Ireland for that reason. It's quite liberating living in a country that doesn't tell you how to do things "because we have always done it this way".

    Also why do Irish InterCity railway services end about 8pm at night or earlier in a lot of cases? Not enough staff and rolling stock? How about late night trains from Dublin back to other destinations like Rosslare and Sligo? After all the early trains need to be in place.


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    #66
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    end of the road wrote: »
    true, however saying someone should be greatful for only having the same type of train for similar routes to ours (westport for example) some of the time when others such as westport get them all of the time and rightly so is an attitude that gets on my goat JD. the poster is trying to make it out that we want the likes of the de-deitrick stock or the mark 4 stock with first class carriges shops and trolly services running the line which is just not true, we just want a bit of comfort for jesus sake, nothing else

    That is just the sort of thing you would never hear outside of Ireland. We should be grateful for what we have eh? Just as well we have some sort of railway services as God knows there are plenty of ideologues who would cheerfully shut the lot down to help out them private bus operators.


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    #67
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Given that the DART service loses money I can't see how it is carrying the Rosslare service. That said, if the DART hadn't been built the Rosslare route - Connolly/Rosslare - would probably have closed throughout.

    Sean Barrett of TCD and An Bord Snip/Nua fame had a particular bee in his bonnet about DART during the construction phase. If I recall correctly there was a lot of the professional classes jumping up and down looking for the sodding Eastern Bypass, that DART and the rest of the railway system was somehow holding Ireland Inc. from building motorways.

    Not much has changed in the meantime.


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    #68
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Same class of fools and their friends in the media were jumping up and down about the Luas too. Some things never change.


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    #69
    TINA1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭TINA1984


    end of the road wrote: »
    is it? really? mixture of both i'd say.

    I'd wager the vast majority of the line's traffic profile is commuter, seems obvious given that's what most of the services on the line are catering for.
    end of the road wrote: »
    how is it, a 29 doing a run to rosslare while an ICR does a run to m3 parkway, so you explain to me how commuter stock designed for short distance high capacity routes is "entirely appropriate" i'l tell you, it isn't, otherwise we'd see a more powerful version of a 29 doing the services to westport and tralee for example.

    I presume most Rosslare line customers aren't going anywhere near the whole way, most are going to the suburban and commuter towns, ergo the rolling stock is appropriate.

    end of the road wrote: »
    do you think i care a less about a trolly service? do you think i care a less about a first class carrige? now maybe if these things were provided pacs might use the train more but as a start an ICR instead of a 29 would be a major leap forward, we have them most of the time anyway so the removal of the couple of 29 runs is all that needs to happen and it can happen, and it really isn't a big ask

    What's the big deal then if its just a couple of runs?
    end of the road wrote: »
    ...obviously the people on these lines you talk of weren't happy as they went to cars and they had better rolling stock one could argue

    The saving grace of the Rosslare line has been the relatively poor state of the M11, the upgrades in the works are probably a greater threat to the viability of the Rosslare lane south of the Dublin commuting belt then any rolling stock issues.
    end of the road wrote: »
    and that is why this country is the way it is, people afraid to say anything because they are told they should be greatful, well i won't be greatful, passengers on this line have been treated like second class citizens for years, a 4 car ICR instead of a 4 car 29 is not to much to ask, infact i couldn't care a less about trolly services or even extra services, just a comfortable seat to sit on like other similar services such as westport would be great.

    Yes you've got me there, one posters opinion on an internet forum is symptomatic of the the entire nation's problems in all spheres of life. I accept full responsibility for the scourge of mass emigration, it's a tough cross to bare, but I manage it somehow.
    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Given that the DART service loses money I can't see how it is carrying the Rosslare service. That said, if the DART hadn't been built the Rosslare route - Connolly/Rosslare - would probably have closed throughout.

    DART & LUAS provides an important function in a large urban area, Rosslare line south of the Dublin commuter belt....not so much.

    Me, Sean B. & Colm C. are going down to Doheny & Nesbitt's later for pints, you coming?


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    #70
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    TINA1984 wrote: »
    I'd wager the vast majority of the line's traffic profile is commuter, seems obvious given that's what most of the services on the line are catering for.

    no different to much of the lines in the country
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    I presume most Rosslare line customers aren't going anywhere near the whole way, most are going to the suburban and commuter towns, ergo the rolling stock is appropriate.

    it isn't, arklow and goarey which would be classed as the "commuter" towns are about 2 hours away, rosslare being nearly 3 hours, so the rolling stock isn't appropriate, otherwise as i said a higher speed version of it would be used on services to westport and tralee, athlone westport and mallow tralee being similar in some respects to graystones rosslare.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    What's the big deal then if its just a couple of runs?

    they are uncomfortable noisey and the rest, these are designed for the arrow services to maynooth, not rosslare, i'm thinking you don't know about different classes of train apart from cork and belfast so no point debating it further, only to say these aren't designed for such distances, otherwise as i said a higher speed version would be used on other services.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    The saving grace of the Rosslare line has been the relatively poor state of the M11, the upgrades in the works are probably a greater threat to the viability of the Rosslare lane south of the Dublin commuting belt then any rolling stock issues.

    which is an insentive to improve the offering, but of course, thats for normal businesses.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    DART & LUAS provides an important function in a large urban area, Rosslare line south of the Dublin commuter belt....not so much.

    irish rail have recognised that suburban railcars aren't suitable for the line hence why they don't operate all the time anymore, they just need to get the finger out and sort out the set schedules so these couple of runs are done by the same train as most services instead of the train designed for the high capacity short distance services, offering a consistent comfortable product, the line very much provides a function, like all lines left in the country, just because it hasn't dart numbers on it doesn't mean it doesn't provide a function, but of course you know best, unlike the person who has being using it for years

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #71
    man98
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    I'll just point out, Rosslare - Dublin is used primarily for commuting. What you need to recognise is, a 4 car 22000 is generally quite full past Enniscorthy on most mornings, although I can't speak for any other times. As I pointed out before, railways aren't meant to be operated at a profit, so instead should we not aim for half decent services with comfortable seats on 2:30 journeys?


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    #72
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    As I pointed out before, railways aren't meant to be operated at a profit, so instead should we not aim for half decent services with comfortable seats on 2:30 journeys?

    There is a fine balance between not for profit and a drain on taxpayers. Not speaking specifically about Rosslare but in general.
    Also why do Irish InterCity railway services end about 8pm at night or earlier in a lot of cases? Not enough staff and rolling stock? How about late night trains from Dublin back to other destinations like Rosslare and Sligo? After all the early trains need to be in place.

    There is no late services because there is nobody to use them. The 6.30-7.30 departures are near empty arriving at their destinations apart from Cork services.


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    #73
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Given that the DART service loses money I can't see how it is carrying the Rosslare service. That said, if the DART hadn't been built the Rosslare route - Connolly/Rosslare - would probably have closed throughout.

    Last i heard DART was break even and even a small profit so i dont know where that came from!


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    #74
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »

    There is no late services because there is nobody to use them. The 6.30-7.30 departures are near empty arriving at their destinations apart from Cork services.

    Doesn't stop NI Railways running late services to Coleraine and Derry. Last train from Belfast to Derry is at 2110 and to Coleraine at 2240. The point I am making here is that the key to NI Railways recent successes is that Mal McGreevy and his colleagues recognise that if you provide a train service at times people want to travel rather than to suit internal railway staff patterns people will use the trains.

    I've long advocated that Translink run the passenger railway on an All-Ireland basis. I'll wager that if they were to do this there would be no loose talk about cutting back rail services to "improve train paths". :rolleyes: Translink have proven that if managed properly there is a demand for good frequent rail services and at an affordable price.

    If we really are serious about improving passenger numbers, we need more trains and a timetable to suit demand. It seems to me much of the timetable is really designed to keep IE working patterns in place such as Limerick Junction-Waterford, a prime example of a Parliamentary service. No wonder the service is under threat. Take Clonmel for instance. It's impossible to commute by train from Clonmel to either Limerick or Waterford using the existing timetable. First train to Waterford from Clonmel isn't until 1037. That's not a timetable to suit anyone working.


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    #75
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,003 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    NIR is moreso a commuter line than a main line, well the bits than Benson hadn't gotten around to closing before he was ousted.
    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    Doesn't stop NI Railways running late services to Coleraine and Derry. Last train from Belfast to Derry is at 2110 and to Coleraine at 2240. The point I am making here is that the key to NI Railways recent successes is that Mal McGreevy and his colleagues recognise that if you provide a train service at times people want to travel rather than to suit internal railway staff patterns people will use the trains.

    I've long advocated that Translink run the passenger railway on an All-Ireland basis. I'll wager that if they were to do this there would be no loose talk about cutting back rail services to "improve train paths". :rolleyes: Translink have proven that if managed properly there is a demand for good frequent rail services and at an affordable price.

    If we really are serious about improving passenger numbers, we need more trains and a timetable to suit demand. It seems to me much of the timetable is really designed to keep IE working patterns in place such as Limerick Junction-Waterford, a prime example of a Parliamentary service. No wonder the service is under threat. Take Clonmel for instance. It's impossible to commute by train from Clonmel to either Limerick or Waterford using the existing timetable. First train to Waterford from Clonmel isn't until 1037. That's not a timetable to suit anyone working.


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    #76
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    NIR is moreso a commuter line than a main line, well the bits than Benson hadn't gotten around to closing before he was ousted.

    Benson would have gotten rid of the lot if he could have, the minute the first line closed he should have been removed for the sake of the railway and the communities served, what, if any of his rein of terror could be undone now?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #77
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Infini2 wrote: »
    Last i heard DART was break even and even a small profit so i dont know where that came from!

    So you 'heard' otherwise- how about a link as I'll be happy to be proved wrong.


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    #78
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    The argument I have is that the service regardless of rolling stock simply is not good enough ! As I type the rosslare europort to Connolly service which is supposed to arrive in bray at 15.09 arrives in a mere 39 minutes late, and this is a regular occurrence. While it may not be always as drastic as this , you would be hard pushed to see it run on time (I'm sad I look at for it every day from my apartment window which is 200m from bray station) delays like this on a clear run for most of the way apart from the up and down meeting at Wicklow and greystones is unacceptable and will do nobody any favours


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    #79
    man98
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    I remember hearing DART ran at a 20M annual loss a couple of years back. Having used Waterford - Limerick, the timetable is awkward, and it no longer runs on a Sunday. If someone wants to go on to Limerick, as most will, that train leaves 40 minutes after the train gets into Limerick Junction, which is a pain for all involved.


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    #80
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Just a comment on DART profits/losses whichever it is the recent cuts to capacity and increase in passenger numbers can only be good either way from a financial aspect.
    Doesn't stop NI Railways running late services to Coleraine and Derry. Last train from Belfast to Derry is at 2110 and to Coleraine at 2240. The point I am making here is that the key to NI Railways recent successes is that Mal McGreevy and his colleagues recognise that if you provide a train service at times people want to travel rather than to suit internal railway staff patterns people will use the trains.

    Apart form a major commuter area Derry-Belfast is like Dublin-Cork or Dublin-Belfast, all have very large urban areas at either terminus and late service operate. I'm sure most if not all of late services operate at a loss but its made up by overall usage something which Sligo, Waterford, Galway etc couldn't do as they probably make bigger losses day to day so increasing those wouldn't make sense.

    Overall I think IE's network of night services is good and the largest urban areas have some form of service.
    Dublin-Belfast
    Dublin-Cork
    Dublin-Limerick
    Galway-Athlone
    Carlow-Dublin
    Dublin-Maynooth
    Dublin-Dundalk
    Dublin-Portlaoise
    Cork-Mallow
    Cork Commuter
    DART


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    #81
    man98
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    I really don't see a need for night services on Rosslare - Dublin. I noticed while looking at a 29000 on Wexford Quay on the 18:30 train from Dublin that there were 25+ people onboard, which isn't half bad. I also overheard a local explaining why the train is there to a tourist...


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    #82
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    man98 wrote: »
    I really don't see a need for night services on Rosslare - Dublin.

    true, all though if a night service was there i certainly wouldn't complain and would use it, head off on the early train and head back on a night service back home, pigs will fly first before it ever happens though, i'd just settle for the 29s to begone.
    man98 wrote: »
    I also overheard a local explaining why the train is there to a tourist...

    what did they say? just out of interest?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #83
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Re the translink comment. They wouldn't be interested in serving areas with so few Presbyterians, see the Derry line for example.


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    #84
    man98
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    end of the road wrote: »
    true, all though if a night service was there i certainly wouldn't complain and would use it, head off on the early train and head back on a night service back home, pigs will fly first before it ever happens though, i'd just settle for the 29s to begone.



    what did they say? just out of interest?

    That it was heading out to Rosslare from Dublin, going slow because of people passing by.


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    #85
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Re the translink comment. They wouldn't be interested in serving areas with so few Presbyterians, see the Derry line for example.

    We're living in 2014 not the 1950's so where do you get off with such a comment?


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    #86
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Everybody -- back on topic, Translink is not the topic

    - mod

    cgcsb wrote: »
    Re the translink comment. They wouldn't be interested in serving areas with so few Presbyterians, see the Derry line for example.

    If you want to make such claims you'll need to (A) start a new thread, and (B) support your claim with more than a snappy comment.

    Don't reply in-thread.

    - mod


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    #87
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    We're living in 2014 not the 1950's so where do you get off with such a comment?

    Indeed. What a breathtaking piece of sectarian ignorance which should be condemned as such. It is not a debating point.


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    #88
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    AGAIN: Everybody -- back on topic, Translink is not the topic.

    Given that there's now two warning to this affect, next off-topic post will be infracted.

    - mod


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    #89
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    Could an indirect train not be used to rosslare from say the bay platform from bray to increase speed and frequency of services , a simple transfer would not hurt people that much


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    #90
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    davidlacey wrote: »
    Could an indirect train not be used to rosslare from say the bay platform from bray to increase speed and frequency of services , a simple transfer would not hurt people that much

    the question is which will people choose, a direct bus that may take longer or a train with a change? non runner i'm afraid

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #91
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    davidlacey wrote: »
    Could an indirect train not be used to Rosslare from say the bay platform from bray to increase speed and frequency of services , a simple transfer would not hurt people that much
    Where a direct line exists, a "simple" unnecessary transfer would not work, and it duplicates equipment and crews.


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