Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga to be Closed.

deise go deo · 19-11-2011 6:53pm #1

An Coimisinéir Teanga

The Government has announced that it is going to close the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga and transfer its functions to the Office of the Ombudsman as part of its public sector reform plan.

The problem with this is that the Government announced only a couple of weeks ago a public consultation as part of a review of the Official Languages Act which includes the role and functions of the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga. It's seams they are asking the public to engage in a consultation on an Office they have already decided to close:rolleyes:

The other problem is that there are no savings to be made. No-one will lose their jobs. If anything, there will be greater expense to the exchequer if they attempt to move the current staff to the Ombudsman's Office in Dublin.

The question has to be asked, How does the Government view the rights of Irish speakers in Ireland.

People have already been protesting against this decision outside the Dáil.

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cyclopath2001 · 19-11-2011 8:19pm

deise go deo wrote: »

The other problem is that there are no savings to be made. No-one will lose their jobs. If anything, there will be greater expense to the exchequer if they attempt to move the current staff to the Ombudsman's Office

This is true, but maybe the review of the OLA will provide the answers.

The OLA and the Language Commissioner's role and extraordinary powers are a relic of the discredited Fianna Fail regime's profligate policies and it is sensible that a more rational and economically sound view be taken of how to preserve a language which is the primary tongue of a small number of our population.

laoch na mona · 19-11-2011 8:32pm

FG are totally against irish culture sure didn't Gay Mitchel want to join the common wealth

p1akuw47h5r3it · 19-11-2011 8:35pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

FG are totally against irish culture sure didn't Gay Mitchel want to join the common wealth

How does this prove that he or FG are against Irish culture?

Ridiculous post.

deise go deo · 19-11-2011 8:43pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is true, but maybe the review of the OLA will provide the answers.

The OLA and the Language Commissioner's role and extraordinary powers are a relic of the discredited Fianna Fail regime's profligate policies and it is sensible that a more rational and economically sound view be taken of how to preserve a language which is the primary tongue of a small number of our population.

What extraordinary powers does An Comisinéir Teanga have? X-Ray vision?

Closing the Office dose not seam rational or economically sound to me, perhaps you would care to expand on the point?

cyclopath2001 · 19-11-2011 8:49pm

deise go deo wrote: »

What extraordinary powers does An Comisinéir Teanga have? X-Ray vision?

The power to force public bodies to use Irish and to fine or imprison people who don't comply.

deise go deo wrote: »

As for closing the office, there are no savings to be made form doing it, what's economically sound about that?

Saving on rent, redundant staff ( eventually) and savings when the powers granted by Fianna Fail are no longer imposed and we only need to use one official language.

deise go deo · 19-11-2011 8:55pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The power to force public bodies to use Irish and to fine or imprison people who don't comply.

Do you consider it extraordinary for Public Bodies to be expected to comply with the law, of for their to be sanctions for people breaking the law?

Saving on rent, redundant staff ( eventually) and savings when the powers granted by Fianna Fail are no longer imposed and we only need to use one official language.

So minimal savings years from now at the expense of peoples language rights? No thanks.

laoch na mona · 19-11-2011 8:59pm

surely we should encourage people / companies / government departments to speak irish

usernamegoes · 19-11-2011 9:23pm

I hope that we will see a review of the OLA soon, such that many of the requirements be removed. I have been emailing TDs with my view on this issue. For instance, many perfectly good signs will need to be replaced my the end of next year I think is the deadline.

I was on the Luas recently, looked up at the stop information and couldn't figure out most of the stops; was a pain in the ass.

Hopefully, this is a step towards a review of OLA.

cyclopath2001 · 19-11-2011 9:37pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

surely we should encourage people / companies / government departments to speak irish

At what cost?

Sica · 19-11-2011 9:38pm

deise go deo wrote: »

So minimal savings years from now at the expense of peoples language rights? No thanks.

These are the savings in "backroom bureaucrats" that the public have been demanding for months. You can't cut public sector jobs and expect to be able to retain the same level of public services.

Sand · 19-11-2011 9:39pm

Id be interested in engaging with the protestors views, but unfortunately, they seem to have written their signs in a language that neither I nor 98% of the modern Irish population can understand.

cyclopath2001 · 19-11-2011 9:46pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Do you consider it extraordinary for Public Bodies to be expected to comply with the law, of for their to be sanctions for people breaking the law?

The law itself is extraordinary in the huge costs it proposes to impose on society.

nesf · 20-11-2011 2:40am

Sand wrote: »

Id be interested in engaging with the protestors views, but unfortunately, they seem to have written their signs in a language that neither I nor 98% of the modern Irish population can understand.

98%? There's a lot more Irish out there than you think. Most of the signs are bilingual anyway from what I can see.

jank · 20-11-2011 2:49am

Sand wrote: »

Id be interested in engaging with the protestors views, but unfortunately, they seem to have written their signs in a language that neither I nor 98% of the modern Irish population can understand.

Ignorance is bliss eh?

LovelyHurling · 20-11-2011 3:00am

Ah here, if you want to blame anyone for the downfall of the first language, first set your sights on the Tuiseal Ginideach. Forget reform of the Junior Cert, reform the genitive case instead.

Maidir leis an gCoimisinéir ata i gceist, does anyone have a link to anything that outlines the savings that are to be made by this move?

It does seem a little strange not to simply move the Coimisinéir into another office, as opposed to abolishing his office entirely and bringing the responsibility elsewhere.

exaisle · 20-11-2011 3:05am

Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga to be Closed.

Good.

I wasn't even aware that it was open....

PRAF · 20-11-2011 9:56am

Good riddance. Another useless quango that no one will really miss. If people are getting worked up over this, what hope have we got to get the country back to an even keel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all behind Irish culture and the Irish language. However, I don't think forcing public bodies to translate 100 page reports into Irish does a single thing for the language. The only thing this kind of initiative ever did was:
- impose unnecessary costs on the public service
- create a small number of fake jobs for some Irish speakers to translate these documents

It did nothing to foster a real love of the language amongst the people

raymon · 20-11-2011 10:08am

We don't have any money to pay for this type of nonsense office.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out Commissioner

Lord TSC · 20-11-2011 11:35am

laoch na mona wrote: »

surely we should encourage people / companies / government departments to speak irish

Surely its possible to encourage people/companies/government departments to speak Irish without forcing them to.

Sica · 20-11-2011 1:30pm

If there is a demand for Irish languages services the businesses and the public sector alike will create those services to cater for that demand. Unfortunately a lot of policy behind promoting the Irish language has been coercive and coercion is never going to foster a love for the Irish language.

LovelyHurling · 20-11-2011 2:23pm

raymon wrote: »

We don't have any money to pay for this type of nonsense office.

The role is still extant, per se, it's just being adapted into another man's workload.

Even the McCarthy report didn't recommend its closure, it took the view that the closure would be pointless. So it isn't clear what the benefit is here, or if there is any.

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 5:56pm

LovelyHurling wrote: »

Maidir leis an gCoimisinéir ata i gceist, does anyone have a link to anything that outlines the savings that are to be made by this move?

As far as I can tell there will be no real savings to this move, it will probably cost money if anything.

dsmythy · 20-11-2011 5:59pm

deise go deo wrote: »

As far as I can tell there will be no real savings to this move, it will probably cost money if anything.

If it did save money you wouldn't mind it being abolished?

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 6:09pm

Sand wrote: »

Id be interested in engaging with the protestors views, but unfortunately, they seem to have written their signs in a language that neither I nor 98% of the modern Irish population can understand.

Where did you get the notion that only two percent of the population can understand Irish?

The Main slogans on the signs that were not Bilingual were 'Keep our Commissioner', 'Support our Commissioner' and 'Act without a Commissioner, act without a soul'.

So feel free to engage away now that you have been enlightened.

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 6:10pm

dsmythy wrote: »

If it did save money you wouldn't mind it being abolished?

Of course I would mind, but at least there would be some logic to it.

cyclopath2001 · 20-11-2011 6:34pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Of course I would mind, but at least there would be some logic to it.

The logic is that it signals a downgrading of the office of Irish language enforcement. A review of the hugely expensive obligations created by Fianna Fail will follow and some sanity will hopfully return to Irish language preservation policy.

rodento · 20-11-2011 6:40pm

How much would we save if every government documant/report didn't have to be translated into Irish:eek:

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 6:43pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The logic is that it signals a downgrading of the office of Irish language enforcement. A review of the hugely expensive obligations created by Fianna Fail will follow and some sanity will hopfully return to Irish language preservation policy.

Hugely Expensive? I haven't seen the figures, perhaps you would be kind enough to provide them.

I would also like to know what you would consider sanity when it comes to the 'Irish language preservation policy'.

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 6:45pm

rodento wrote: »

How much would we save if every government documant/report didn't have to be translated into Irish:eek:

I don't know, but that's hardily relevant anyway as not even close to every document is translated as it stands.

Sica · 20-11-2011 6:45pm

rodento wrote: »

How much would we save if every government documant/report didn't have to be translated into Irish:eek:

Lots. Not only because of the saving in translation costs but also because the Government would start using much more intelligent use of the internet - the reason why Irish Government websites are so poor is because of the obligation to translate everything into Irish - they can't afford the translation costs so don't put ANYTHING on their websites.

thebman · 20-11-2011 6:48pm

Zero savings sounds illogical TBH. If they close the office they must be either paying rent on it or selling the building afterwards or moving something else in there and then they can stop paying rent elsewhere.

I doubt it is as simple as there are zero savings because nobody lost their job.

cyclopath2001 · 20-11-2011 6:58pm

deise go deo wrote: »

I don't know, but that's hardily relevant anyway as not even close to every document is translated as it stands.

But the act passed by Fianna Fail which established the Office of the Irish Language Commissioner quango and gave it considerable enforcement powers, sets out that all documents and services, including web sites and phone services must be provided in Irish and the Language Commissioner's office has been turning up he heat on public bodies, right?

Lord TSC · 20-11-2011 7:01pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But the act passed by Fianna Fail which established the Office of the Irish Language Commissioner quango and gave it considerable enforcement powers, sets out that all documents and services, including web sites and phone services must be provided in Irish and the Language Commissioner's office has been turning up he heat on public bodies, right?

If thats true, then by Deise's own addmision, the office isn't doing its job and should be examined then.

texidub · 20-11-2011 7:08pm

I know it's counter-intuitive, but I wonder: Is there any community more anti-Irish than the Irish language promotion community? By which I mean... is there any section of Irish society more opposed to how the vast majority of Irish people choose to speak and communicate? I think the Irish-language lobby is actually a threat to the cultural will of the majority of Irish people. They want to perform a linguistic operation transformation and won't be happy until the rest of us conform to their anti-Irish agenda.

I wouldn't stop anyone speaking any language they choose, BTW, and I think it is great that the irish language still has some speakers. But don't force it on anyone.

And for goodness sake, instead of promoting a particular language --as though that were an end in itself-- try promoting the kind of critical thinking that will give people interesting things to say... in whatever language they choose! If ithat happens to Irish, then great. It can be translated and shared with other people around the globe... although if it was written in English it could be shared with many more people. Unfortunately, I don't believe sharing ideas or moving forward as a society or opening up communication channels is what Irish language promotion is about.

Dannyboy83 · 20-11-2011 7:08pm

Doesn't look like a large protest. I've seen more people in a chipper.

Seems Irish people have already got things in perspective.

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 7:11pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

If thats true, then by Deise's own addmision, the office isn't doing its job and should be examined then.

What is to be translated is set out clearly under the act, there is even a small booklet that sets it all out for anyone that want's to go to the bother of finding out what they are talking about before making unfounded comments.

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 7:13pm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Doesn't look like a large protest. I've seen more people in a chipper.

Seems Irish people have already got things in perspective.

Yep, it was a small group, around 100, but to be fair the protest was only a few hours after the government made the announcement.

MysticalRain · 20-11-2011 7:18pm

We need to be spending less money on pointless quangos and more money on promoting foreign languages skills that are of economic benefit to the country.

We must learn to talk the talk for boost in trading

Given that the majority of the global population doesn't speak English, language skills are key to unlocking our export potential, says Google boss John Herlihy

http://www.independent.ie/business/we-must-learn-to-talk-the-talk-for-boost-in-trading-2940092.html

Lord TSC · 20-11-2011 7:24pm

deise go deo wrote: »

What is to be translated is set out clearly under the act, there is even a small booklet that sets it all out for anyone that want's to go to the bother of finding out what they are talking about before making unfounded comments.

Oh good, you can see my posts. Thought you might have been ignoring me, since you ignored my previous one where I said...

Surely its possible to encourage people/companies/government departments to speak Irish without forcing them to.

I'm all for having an orginisation whose aim it is to encourage people/companies/government departments to speak and provide Irish services. I just think it's a joke that we have a governmental department whose role is to force people/companies/government departments to provide Irish documentations that are not needed by the vast, vast majority of people.

In a day and age where we're struggling financially, we simply should not be not only paying money to a group to force people to speak (etc) Irish but also forcing departments to spend extra money employing translators, spending more on publishing, etc.

cyclopath2001 · 20-11-2011 7:24pm

deise go deo wrote: »

What is to be translated is set out clearly under the act, there is even a small booklet that sets it all out for anyone that want's to go to the bother of finding out what they are talking about before making unfounded comments.

Is it not true that the Main Aim of the Office of the Language Commissioner is that all public services be available, immediately, on demand in the Irish language?

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 7:36pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Is it not true that the Main Aim of the Office of the Language Commissioner is that all public services be available, immediately, on demand in the Irish language?

I think that would be a fair enough assessment of the aim, though it is not expected to happen over night, the Language commissioner agrees a language scheme with each public body and oversees its implementation.

Surely its possible to encourage people/companies/government departments to speak Irish without forcing them to.

Well as for people, there is no provision under the act for anyone to be forced to speak Irish.
Only public bodies come under the act so no Private companies are affected in any way.

I am sure it is possible and I would imagine that the vast majority of the public service is happy to comply with the law, but at the end of the day, the law sets out that people have a right to use Irish when dealing with the state, and if a department of the state is not respecting those rights then I think it is only right that there be someone in place that can help the citizen access their rights.

texidub · 20-11-2011 7:37pm

Everyone should wear green socks. Further, we should use government money to encourage people to wear green socks. Wearing black socks is anti-Irish. Upshot: people are still wearing socks.

Also, everyone should use wireless computer mice. We should spend government money to promote the use of wireless computer mice. Using other types of comupter mice is anti-Irish. Upshot: people are still using using computer mice.

We should promote the 12-bar blues. We should spend government money to promote the 12-bar blues. Listening to or performing any other form of blues is anti-Irish. have you no sense of cultural obligation?! Upshot: people are still listening to the blues.

We should promote the Irish language. English is but a blow-in. Further, we should spend tax payers money to encourage people to speak irish. Upshot: people still talking sh*te.

Irish language promotion: all style and no substance. Cut the quangos. Cut funding to TG4. Remove compulsory Irish from the curriculum. Give a little money to historians and folklorists to record what's going on in Irish for future generations.

I'll say it again. The Irish language community are anti-Irish and a threat to Irish culture.

Hobbyists out!

cyclopath2001 · 20-11-2011 8:02pm

deise go deo wrote: »

I think that would be a fair enough assessment of the aim, though it is not expected to happen over night, the Language commissioner agrees a language scheme with each public body and oversees its implementation.

So, it's more than just translating some documents, right?

Has this been costed?

deise go deo wrote: »

I would imagine that the vast majority of the public service is happy to comply with the law

Indeed, you imagine this.

deise go deo wrote: »

but at the end of the day, the law sets out that people have a right to use Irish when dealing with the state, and if a department of the state is not respecting those rights then I think it is only right that there be someone in place that can help the citizen access their rights.

Laws can be changed. The people in question all have excellent English. Hardly the basis for a human rights case.

At present, we have more important rights to protect.

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 8:17pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

So, it's more than just translating some documents, right?

Has this been costed?

Indeed it is more than just translating documents, I would imagine it has been costed, but I don't have the figures, you were the one talking about it being hugely expensive so I thought you had them, still waiting for you to provide them though.

Here is a good example of a language scheme that would be agreed with An Coimisinéir.
http://www.waterfordcoco.ie/en/services/irishlanguageandservices/irishscheme/

Laws can be changed. The people in question all have excellent English. Hardly the basis for a human rights case.

At present, we have more important rights to protect.

Not true actually, there are still people living in some Gaeltachts who's Irish is better than their English and who are more comfortable using their native language.

Laws can indeed be changed, but the Irish language community will still consider using Irish to be a right, people have gone to prison over the issue in the past, I would hate to see a situation where this would have to happen again.

rodento · 20-11-2011 8:22pm

So how many of these documents have actually been read, has a single one been purchased to date:eek:

Sica · 20-11-2011 8:23pm

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-836418m-to-translate-reports-into-irish-1924948.html

According to the above it cost €1.8m in 2009. I can't find a more up to date figure.

rodento · 20-11-2011 8:30pm

Sica wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-836418m-to-translate-reports-into-irish-1924948.html

According to the above it cost €1.8m in 2009. I can't find a more up to date figure.

The majority of the Irish version of these reports and documents were not bought by members of the public.

Says it all really:rolleyes:

cyclopath2001 · 20-11-2011 8:35pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Indeed it is more than just translating documents, I would imagine it has been costed, but I don't have the figures,

Since the law was created by Fianna Fail, it's nor surprising there are no overall costings.

A review of the OLA will clarify the costs and the real need for these services.

Would you not agree?

thebman · 20-11-2011 8:36pm

rodento wrote: »

So how many of these documents have actually been read, has a single one been purchased to date:eek:

There was an article released on it a few years ago with the exact figures, can't find it now. It isn't high, I'll put it that way.

deise go deo · 20-11-2011 8:44pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Since the law was created by Fianna Fail, it's nor surprising there are no overall costings.

A review of the OLA will clarify the costs and the real need for these services.

Would you not agree?

I take it then that you don't actually have the figures? On what then was your claim that it is 'Hugely Expensive' based?

As for the review of the OLA, its about time, there are several changes that need to be made to it to ensure it works effectively, one of the biggest problems with it is that while public bodies have to provide services in Irish, often they fail to adequately advertise that these are available, Irish language service provision should be run an the Canadian 'Active offer' model.

Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga to be Closed.

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