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Becoming a Real Runner

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    #2702
    shels4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    04072511 wrote: »
    Well it's all relative. There are many people who say that 2:59 marathon is not even running, but do we really need to go down that road? Of course sub 60 is sprinting.



    I really don't see how running say a sub 40 minute 10k can tell us anything about somebody's potential over 400m. Running a sub 14 second 100m tells us more. It doesn't matter if he is not trained for 100m, it is still a very natural event, and is a good test of what sort of natural speed somebody has. If you don't have some level of natural speed then you are nowhere over 400m.

    I actually think he could break 60, but not in his current state. He'd need to do proper specific 400m training.
    I'd agree but I think if he did propper 1500m/5k training he'd also be very close, its just my experience from actually doing that. Maybe best to move this to another thread.


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    #2703
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Nice job quoting me out of context. What I was saying is that it doesn't matter that he may not be trained for a 100m, it can still be used as a very strong predictor.


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    #2704
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    shels4ever wrote: »
    I'd agree but I think if he did propper 1500m/5k training he'd also be very close, its just my experience from actually doing that. Maybe best to move this to another thread.

    If he was running 14.00 for 100m but pulled out a 2:20 for 800m yesterday then I'd agree with you, but he didn't. His 800m time was in fact worse than his 100m time. Shows the relevance of his distance background.

    Ah it's interesting debate anyway, and not off topic given his track exploits.

    Just a shame that our mod must have been hungover during his sprint lectures! :rolleyes:


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    #2705
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    04072511 wrote: »
    The 100m is a very natural event.
    Please enlighten me as to how a 5k time is a good indicator of 400m potential. I'm facinated. Do bear in mind though that sprinting form is completely different to how a 5k athlete would run, but I'm sure you know this.

    So on the one hand it's all about technique and sprinting form is completely different to meno's normal running form, but on the other hand his untrained sprints are the most important indicators we have, everything else has zero relevance.

    I think my point is clear enough. If you took a bunch of trained 100m and 200m sprinters and attempted to predict their 400m times, you could probably do so to a fairly high degree of accuracy. Same for 800m runners. One set of results is a good indicator of the other set of results.
    If you take a bunch of trained mile/5k/10k runners and attempted to predict their 400m times, you would be much less accurate. It's not as good an indicator.
    But meno isn't a trained 100m, 200m, or 800m athlete. So he doesn't fit into the first set. He is a trained mile/5k/10k/63.3k :pac: athlete, so even though those times aren't as good an indicator, they're the best ones to use in this case.


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    #2706
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RayCun wrote: »
    So on the one hand it's all about technique and sprinting form is completely different to meno's normal running form, but on the other hand his untrained sprints are the most important indicators we have, everything else has zero relevance.

    I think my point is clear enough. If you took a bunch of trained 100m and 200m sprinters and attempted to predict their 400m times, you could probably do so to a fairly high degree of accuracy. Same for 800m runners. One set of results is a good indicator of the other set of results.
    If you take a bunch of trained mile/5k/10k runners and attempted to predict their 400m times, you would be much less accurate. It's not as good an indicator.
    But meno isn't a trained 100m, 200m, or 800m athlete. So he doesn't fit into the first set. He is a trained mile/5k/10k/63.3k :pac: athlete, so even though those times aren't as good an indicator, they're the best ones to use in this case.

    You still fail to explain how a 5k time is a reliable indicator of 400m potential?

    A 100m is a sprint. A 400m is a sprint. A 5000m is not a sprint. A mile is not a sprint. An untrained 100m SPRINT time is a good indicator of potential for an untrained 400m SPRINT time. Larry Brent has made optimistic predictions that he can run 61-62 right now, off no specific training. Well if this is the case, well then why shouldn't we look at his 100m time as a predictor?

    You keep ignoring my point about speed endurance. Go google it!


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    #2707
    Woddle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,492 ✭✭✭Woddle


    04072511 wrote: »
    well then why shouldn't we look at his 100m time as a predictor?

    Because I don't think he's ever seen blocks before let alone start a race from them :D and the weather was terrible.
    I think his next 100m or as he said his 200m would be a much better indicator.
    The one thing I think he has in his favour is his speed endurance and I think he'll go sub 60 before the end of the track season without too much specificity but he will need some including getting out of the blocks.


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    #2708
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    04072511 wrote: »
    You still fail to explain how a 5k time is a reliable indicator of 400m potential?

    I just did.
    As I said, it may not be the best indicator in general, but since meno is a trained 5k runner it is the best indicator for him.
    04072511 wrote: »
    You keep ignoring my point about speed endurance. Go google it!

    And you keep failing to explain why 100m was all about technique yesterday but nothing to do with technique today...

    We're going around in circles here. I get that 400m is your thing and sprinting is your thing, but you get very touchy whenever people suggest they might not be the only things :rolleyes:

    Meno will probably run a few more races at the graded meets this year, but he's training for a marathon not a 400m so there's not much point in us debating what he could do if he trained...


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    #2709
    shels4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    Woddle wrote: »
    Because I don't think he's ever seen blocks before let alone start a race from them :D and the weather was terrible.
    I think his next 100m or as he said his 200m would be a much better indicator.
    The one thing I think he has in his favour is his speed endurance and I think he'll go sub 60 before the end of the track season without too much specificity but he will need some including getting out of the blocks.
    He prob could , but I dont know if he will because of the marathon plan will need to take over later in the summer. there was however a BHAA 4X400m last summer.... :)


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    #2710
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RayCun wrote: »
    I just did.
    As I said, it may not be the best indicator in general, but since meno is a trained 5k runner it is the best indicator for him.



    And you keep failing to explain why 100m was all about technique yesterday but nothing to do with technique today...

    We're going around in circles here. I get that 400m is your thing and sprinting is your thing, but you get very touchy whenever people suggest they might not be the only things :rolleyes:

    Meno will probably run a few more races at the graded meets this year, but he's training for a marathon not a 400m so there's not much point in us debating what he could do if he trained...

    Predicting somebody's 400m potential off a 5k time is as relevant as me predicting my potential over 5k based on my 400m PB. I'd be far better looking at my untrained 1500m/Mile times. Sprints and Distance running are too very different disciplines. Using a 5000m time as an indicator is laughable to be honest.

    I wont even bother replying to your question because you keep taking my points out of context.

    Anyway, the man himself has even said that he doesn't feel he could run much faster than 65, and he is usually quite a confident poster. He has admitted to underestimating these distances.

    I'm going to bandage my head, and head to bed. It's fairly sore from banging it against the wall in a repetitive manner.

    I'm genuinely amazed at the lack of knowledge of one of our athletics mods, and it has been evident in numerous threads. Anyway I'll leave this thread get back to normal.


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    #2711
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    shels4ever wrote: »
    there was however a BHAA 4X400m last summer.... :)

    It wasn't open last summer, you had to be part of an existing (company/sector) team I think. Maybe we can persuade them to allow a Boards team from the guys there on the night...


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    #2712
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    04072511 wrote: »
    I'm genuinely amazed at the lack of knowledge of one of our athletics mods

    I'm amazed that, after a couple of years posting this, you can continue to be amazed. Young people and their short attention spans :rolleyes:


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    #2713
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    shels4ever wrote: »
    He prob could , but I dont know if he will because of the marathon plan will need to take over later in the summer. there was however a BHAA 4X400m last summer.... :)

    No relay splits allowed. I got lynched by thirtyfoot for trying to claim one of them :)


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    #2714
    Larry Brent
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭Larry Brent


    04072511 wrote: »
    I actually think he could break 60, but not in his current state. He'd need to do proper specific 400m training.

    He's need no such thing! Once his marathon time comes down a tad and then his 10m time, he'll do it no bother. True he would need 400m specific trainng to run his best possible time, but not to run sub 60. If he wanted to run 55 he might want to do 400m specific training. But to break 60 he just needs to get a little fitter.

    I think you underestimate the aerobic side of the 400m. It's a lot different in terms of enery systems involved if you're doing it in 45s compared to 60s. To run it in 60s you need to be able to create a lot of lactate but also be able to clear that lactate. The aerobic system is your man for this. Once he shaves a few mins off his 10m time, and the improvements in aerobic system that will come with that, sub 60 will be a cruise. But I agree he'd need a lot more specific 400m work for 55 or better. But not a jot of that will be needed for sub 60.


    04072511 wrote: »
    No relay splits allowed. I got lynched by thirtyfoot for trying to claim one of them :)
    And letsrun! ;)


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    #2715
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Larry Brent wrote: »
    He's need no such thing! Once his marathon time comes down a tad and then his 10m time, he'll do it no bother. True he would need 400m specific trainng to run his best possible time, but not to run sub 60. If he wanted to run 55 he might want to do 400m specific training. But to break 60 he just needs to get a little fitter.

    I think you underestimate the aerobic side of the 400m. It's a lot different in terms of enery systems involved if you're doing it in 45s compared to 60s. To run it in 60s you need to be able to create a lot of lactate but also be able to clear that lactate. The aerobic system is your man for this. Once he shaves a few mins off his 10m time, and the improvements in aerobic system that will come with that, sub 60 will be a cruise. But I agree he'd need a lot more specific 400m work for 55 or better. But not a jot of that will be needed for sub 60.

    Completely disagree. Sure there's one guy at my club who has a 400m PB of 60, but has 2:10 800m, 4:30m 1500m PBs. A 10 mile has no basis on a one lap dash. Anyway I've said all I there is to say. I'll just end up repeating myself. It's currently 1 sprinter agueing against 3-4 distance runners about a sprint event. Would be interesting to hear a sprinters thoughts on this.


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    #2716
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Ray, why don't you put your euros where your mouth is and actually run some of these graded meets instead of devising crazy 5k to 400m running calculators?


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    #2717
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    haha lads just cstching up, this is gas!!

    I've been involved in a few log takeovers in the past but this takes the biscuit :D Just to say i am only doing these meets for a bit of fun. What annoys me most was that the LJ was cancelled last night. I was really looking forward to that :D


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    #2718
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    04072511 wrote: »
    Ray, why don't you put your euros where your mouth is and actually run some of these graded meets instead of devising crazy 5k to 400m running calculators?

    +1. Ray, lets bring our smackdown showdown to the 400m Grade D event on 23rd May!!


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    #2719
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    04072511 wrote: »
    Ray, why don't you put your euros where your mouth is and actually run some of these graded meets instead of devising crazy 5k to 400m running calculators?

    I'm not devising any calculators :confused: I'm just pointing out the fallacy involved in deciding that untrained times over some distances (where technique is everything!) are better indicators than trained times over other distances.

    I've no interest in running the graded meets. I don't really care what my 400m time is, any more than I care what my 50k time is - neither are distances I'm training for.


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    #2720
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    menoscemo wrote: »
    +1. Ray, lets bring our smackdown showdown to the 400m Grade D event on 23rd May!!

    Let's bring it to a game of badminton next weekend :pac:


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    #2721
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RayCun wrote: »
    I'm just pointing out the fallacy involved in deciding that untrained times over some distances (where technique is everything!) are better indicators than trained times over other distances.

    Technique is pretty damn important over 400m also. :rolleyes:

    The 100m and 400m are siblings. The 5000m is a long lost 3rd cousin retracing her Irish roots!


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    #2722
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    RayCun wrote: »
    Let's bring it to a game of badminton next weekend :pac:

    Are you any good at Badmington? :mad:

    I'll take you on at golf if you want.


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    #2723
    shels4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    menoscemo wrote: »
    haha lads just cstching up, this is gas!!

    I've been involved in a few log takeovers in the past but this takes the biscuit :D Just to say i am only doing these meets for a bit of fun. What annoys me most was that the LJ was cancelled last night. I was really looking forward to that :D
    Based on your 5k time you should be jumping close to 9m , but going on your marathon about 12m would be right ;).


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    #2724
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Are you any good at Badmington? :mad:

    I'll take you on at golf if you want.

    I've barely played in 20 years... so about as good as you are at long jump :D
    Golf :eek: <shudder> no thank you, I'm not quite ready for the coffin

    5k beach race on May 22nd, if you're writing off training that week anyway ;)


    edited to add - I've just realised, we could name any sport we liked here - bog snorkelling? fencing? dressage? - and Brian would be on five minutes later with the odds :D


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    #2725
    tunguska
    Registered Users Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    This is hilarious lads. Empty room = fight.......


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    #2726
    pistol_75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭pistol_75


    menoscemo wrote: »
    I'll take you on at golf if you want.

    Must get you out for a game over the summer if you fancy it.


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    #2727
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    pistol_75 wrote: »
    Must get you out for a game over the summer if you fancy it.

    Sure do. I'll be free in late july and early august.


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    #2728
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Thursday
    5.4 miles easy (8:32) LB has told me to run these at about 50 BPM below max (about 135 for me) but the bloody HRM is acting up so am just running these easy runs by feel.

    Friday
    6 miles easy (8:43) another one like yesterday.
    Got a PM on boards offering me a place for the samsung run which I was happy to snap up. :D

    Saturday
    Cancelled the planned long run and just did an easy 5 miles

    Sunday

    Got up nice and early and on LB's advice ( and CL's expamle) went out for an early morning strech. 1.4 miles @ 9.30 pace

    Drove over to Drumcondra at midday and parked my car up in his house and we headed to Croke park for the league finals. Nice way to spend an afternnon before a race. I felt little pressure. Antone in Dublin today will know the weather was awful. I was hoping beyond hope that the winds would calm down and the rain stay off. No such luck.

    Samsung Night race (10k)

    By 7pm I ws in my mates house and togged out for the run. Given how cold it was I decided to wear a longsleeved compression top under my singlet. I figured the splits in the race would be erratic to say the least given the near gale force winds so I decided to cover the watch with the compression top and run the whole race by feel. This was a novel tactic for me but since the race was an unexpected freebie I said I'd give it a go.

    At 7.30 I jogged down to the race. 2.5 miles @ 8:20 pace. This felt good but I was aware t was downhill and downwind all the way :mad:

    Had to hang about for 30 minutes then. the weather was trukly awful. I tried to stay warm but doing strides in my black bag but resorted to huddling under a nearby roof with the other.

    the start was slow to say the least. we were marched at a slow pace about 1/4 of a mile and then there were a series of false alarms and speeches. Finally got going. I was near the front and got away ok. The first k was into the wind and then a sharp turn at the top of oconnell st which brought us to a near standstill. People quickly fell away and I got into a group. Onto the quays and could hear the garmin beep the first mile under the compression top. wasn't tempted to look. I just concentrated on my own race from here on. I stayed in groups and pushed on when I felt they were slowing. By 3 miles I was passed by 2 ladies (1 sportsworld, 1 MSB). Not many were passing me so I knew they were good runners. I heard someone call them 2nd and 3rd ladies so i figured I must be going well. I had a really bad 4th mile where I struggled with several long sections into the teeth of the gale force winds. the 2 girls got a bit of a gap on me here but I tried to keep them in sight. I heard the 4th mile bleep and got a bit of a 2nd wind as we turned away from the wind for a bit. Felt I was moving well here and I was pulling in bodies and got to within about 20 yards of the two girls. The sportsworld girl pulled away after 5 miles but I kept the MSB one in my sights and drew level at 6 miles and managed to outkick her to the finish.

    I felt like I had run a really good race and had not much left at the finish, so I was surprised and disappointed to see the clock had passed 40 minuteswhn I crossed the finish line, especially since only 2 females beat me in a race of 5,000. I can only assume the wind took a minute or two of our times. The course was also a little long.

    Summary 6.3 miles in 40:19 (6:25 pace) Spilts: 6:20, 6:23, 6:20, 6:37, 6:25, 6:28 .3@ 6;18 pace). Anyway top 80 is nt too shabby I guess in a big race like this.

    2.5 miles     jog back to my mates house. I turned up like a drounded rat and was happy for a shower and a nice cup of tea :D

    Total for the day 12.6 miles

    WTD 7/7 days running 44.1 miles

    2011|No. of days Running|Miles|2012 |No. of days Running|Miles
    January|28/31|256.3|January|28/31|290.1
    February|24/28|236.9|February|27/29|283.2
    March|23/31|221.9|March|24/31|204.7
    April|22/30|176.4|April|22/29|181.1
    May|25/31|198.5|||
    June|24/30|180.6|||
    July|28/31|269.4|||
    August|23/31|244.6|||
    September|22/30|200|||
    October|26/31|187.5|||
    November|28/30|210.1|||
    December|24/31|194.3|||
    Total|297/365|2576.5|Total|101/120|959.1


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    #2729
    hf4z6sqo7vjngi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    Just catching up on logs and cannot help myself.
    Sub 60sec 400mtr is not that fast 904210 and Meno would probably be close to it now without any training based on some of his old 200mtr interval times.


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    #2730
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Davis Big Limo wrote: »
    Just catching up on logs and cannot help myself.
    Sub 60sec 400mtr is not that fast 904210 and Meno would probably be close to it now without any training based on some of his old 200mtr interval times.

    Jesus, man, don't start them off again :pac:

    If you want we can have our long awaited smackdown at the graded meets. 200m and 400m races coming up soon.


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    #2731
    hf4z6sqo7vjngi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Jesus, man, don't start them off again :pac:

    If you want we can have our long awaited smackdown at the graded meets. 200m and 400m races coming up soon.

    Track meets not on my agenda but doing the Boyne 10k next weekend if you fancy another beating:)


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