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Free travel passes not to be touched in budget - Minister Burton
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Do you automatically get a pass if you're on Disability Benefit? - as various commentators have pointed out the numbers on DB have (for reasons largely unknown) increased dramatically in the last 10 years.
Increased dramatically !....the understatement of the thread....:eek:
Avoiding pedantry concerning Allowance vs Benefit in this context,here's the chapter n verse on who gets the FTP.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/780_Free-Travel.aspx#1
It's worth reading the entire document,particularly Item 1
782,529 and counting
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Another tidbit worth noting is the issuing of the NTA's second PSO contract to a Private Sector Operator...
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/whartons-travel-crossdoney-wins-contract-for-publicly-funded-bus-route-between-cavan-and-longford/
In the context of this thread however,and the very clear statement of Minister Burton as quoted in the header,this piece may be of some interest....?Adult and Concessionary Fares to be charged have been set by the Authority and broadly match the previous fares charged. As the Free Travel Scheme operated by the Department of Social Protection is closed to new entrants, holders of Free Travel Passes wishing to travel on the service will now be required to pay 50% of the appropriate Adult Fare. The new service is wheelchair accessible.
It remains to be seen whether Minister Burton is liasing with her counterpart in Transport,or indeed with any of the Senior Management of the NTA who,after all do tell us they have set the Fare levels....;)
The Future has already begun.....precedent is everything to these people,and now they have TWO to fall back upon Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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What are the current passenger numbers for the Portlaoise service? could it be called a success given that the operator threw in the towel when they had to cover the cost of the service and it now only operates fully funded by the NTA. Do as many free travel pass holders use it as did before the free travel element was removed(is it catering for those it was designed to cater for)?Another tidbit worth noting is the issuing of the NTA's second PSO contract to a Private Sector Operator...
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/whartons-travel-crossdoney-wins-contract-for-publicly-funded-bus-route-between-cavan-and-longford/
In the context of this thread however,and the very clear statement of Minister Burton as quoted in the header,this piece may be of some interest....?
It remains to be seen whether Minister Burton is liasing with her counterpart in Transport,or indeed with any of the Senior Management of the NTA who,after all do tell us they have set the Fare levels....;)
The Future has already begun.....precedent is everything to these people,and now they have TWO to fall back upon0 -
Another tidbit worth noting is the issuing of the NTA's second PSO contract to a Private Sector Operator...
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/whartons-travel-crossdoney-wins-contract-for-publicly-funded-bus-route-between-cavan-and-longford/
In the context of this thread however,and the very clear statement of Minister Burton as quoted in the header,this piece may be of some interest....?
It remains to be seen whether Minister Burton is liasing with her counterpart in Transport,or indeed with any of the Senior Management of the NTA who,after all do tell us they have set the Fare levels....;)
The Future has already begun.....precedent is everything to these people,and now they have TWO to fall back upon
It will really fall apart when/if the tendering of DB/BE routes is rolled out and the NTA take full control of the farebox and has to make the books balance rather than just throwing the ball into the CIE court and telling them to make the books balance.
Operators will have to be paid on a Km driven basis irrespective of who travels or if no one travels, the NTA will presumably also have the cost of central control and revenue protection and quite possibly depot provision and maintenance as well as fleet replacement.
Upto now the DoT has always been able to just tell the operator to cut costs ( ie routes, staff, terms and conditions etc) irrespective of what they had asked the provider to do the yeaar before, that won't be the case in the future when they have binding contracts with private companies for service provision for fixed terms.
What will the NTA do when the fare box, subvention and money for free travel scheme doesn't meet the operating costs but they are obliged to pay the operators anyway ?0 -
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mickydoomsux wrote: »Raise fares so that the free travel stays free. That seems to be the most important thing in public transport at the moment.
Raise fares, cut services, cut wages and run services/facilities with no overtime but the cost of a free travel ticket is exactly the same as it was before an unprecedented economic meltdown despite there being more people than ever "entitled" to free travel.
This is known as the "U.K. Model" and is working very well there.....loads n loadsa people getting shiny new Bus Passes ....however...more and more operators shutting-up shop as the funding for the scheme is so poor....Free Travel,but No services on which to use it.....sounds kinda Irish to me...Oh wait....sorry,we're playing catch-up Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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I haven't read this thread entirely but just wanted to add my piece.
As a non OAP I have my pass due to a disability so wherever I want to go I need to use public transport, mine isn't a companion pass so just for myself.
I don't have the option to drive myself due to my medical issues so having my FTP means I can do whatever I want without needing to be concerned about the cost.
On the other side, for OAP's its about social inclusion. Particularly for those living outside urban areas. Again, it means you can go outside your own home without needing to worry about the cost.
I do think for OAPs theres a case for means teasing it in line with the medical card or something like that. Or maybe removing it form short distance journeys that might only cost 2 or 3 euro.
Ryanf1,the issue I am highlighting is nothing to do with individuals or the reasons they have a Free Travel Pass.(Thats for a different thread)
The Thread Title refers to the statements issues by both Leo Varadakar and Joan Burton in recent times.
However whilst the wording of the statements is undoubtably accurate,the experience to date with the NEW NTA PSO Tendered routes indicates otherwise...
The FACT is,that if you present yourself for travel on either the 828/X or 975 services your Free Travel Pass will NOT be honoured in the manner it's title infers.
Instead,presentation of your FREE Travel Pass will allow you to purchase a ticket at 50% discount off the appropriate Adult fare.
The question now hanging in the air,is whether this new "Concessionary" Fare regime is now official NTA policy on PSO tendered routes going forward.....Is it?..or.... is it Not ?
It is a serious issue,as IF the two new PSO routes not accepting the FTP,are NOT typical of the new PSO Contracts countrywide,then those FTP holders using these services are most certainly being singled out for discrimination in terms of accessing Public Transport.
This issue,of itself,has the capacity to throw the NTA's current plans to outsource 10% of the Dublin Bus/Bus Eireann PSO contracts into chaos should some enterprising reporter cotton on to it.....;)
It would now seem that the validity of the FTP will in the first instance be dictated,not by the NTA or the DSP,but by the individual Service Operator,without any contractual requirement to honour the existing entitlement held by the FT Scheme participants.
But the Free Pass itself will,of course,remain untouched by Political Hands....:o
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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But can those two little used routes be used as a sign of things to come? Remember that on the portlaoise route the operator m&a coaches pulled out of the original deal because they could not make any money at all from the route, not because they had to carry free pass holders but because there are no significant passenger numbers. .....
........Both these routes could be more than adequately covered by a twice a day bus twice a week like hundreds of other routes on bus eireanns rural routes network. ........
I would safely say that many of the older and disabled people who used the old expressway services have made alternative arrangements or have had family neighbours and friends rally around to make sure they were not left paying for a service that was previously free for them. We must remember that before many of these people are able to use free travel at all they must now pay to travel or stay at home. Most do not have the luxury of deciding to cycle or drive.
Quite corrrect......the opening question stands on it's own merit and is proving diifficult to secure an answer for.
So,is the inability of an operator to "Make any money" from a Public Service Obligation route now grounds for the total abandonment of the long-established FREE Travel Scheme ?
If it is grounds in deepest Portlaoise,then we must assume it will equally be grounds in Urban Waterford,Bray,Dun Laoire,Swords and Rialto,something which the NTA,in particular,has steered decidely clear of in it's recent statements.
Bearing in mind that the NTA's 10% proposals do not involve ANY additional buses or services,yet at face value may well involve a considerable alteration in how the services are funded/provided/used,the reluctance to clarify the brave new Tendered World is somewhat interesting.
The Governments ongoing attempts to talk-up an Irish recovery & rebound from economic collapse stands in contradiction to this particular example of questionable policy ?
But,on the bright side...."The FREE Travel Pass has not been touched" Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Would you agree that the routes included in the 10% for privatisation do on a regular daily basis carry many many more passengers both paying and free travel pass holders than either of the two knee-jerk routes which were formed to appease the residents of a couple of small villages?
The route structures,loadings,timings are irrelevant in this case as are personal opinions as to knee-jerking etc.
The issue at hand is the veracity,or otherwise of Minister Burtons statement that "Free Travel Passes will NOT be touched in the Budget" and opinions as to the developments in the FREE Travel Pass situation since then ?
Quite obviously,IF the basic PSO Tender Specifications we now see in use are to be continued in the 10% Bus Atha Cliath situation,then we are heading for a "situation" not alluded to by Ms Burton....;)
The Government (via the NTA) need to clarify the situation IMMEDIATELY rather than waiting for the NTA alone to do an 11th hour job when it slips out of the bag later.
It is at this juncture that the Non-Statutory nature of the Free Travel Scheme now assumes significant importance....any bets as to how much longer this scheme has left...? Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Indeed there will be no interest in those routes if the operator(s) are supposed to offer a 50% reduced price for free pass holders while not receiving any other payment at all for carrying these people. The main problem being that if free travel pass holders have to pay they will travel on the bus as little as possible and make alternative arrangements for most of their jorneys meaning the bus services will be so underused there will be serious reductions in services until the routes are not viable.
But but but...the very reason for these route's being PSO in the first place IS their lack of "viability"...so now they will be doubly un viable....is that it ?
These PSO Tenders will sure be an interesting read altogether....I'm sensing an Irish solution to an Irish Problem in the offing......;)Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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But but but...the very reason for these route's being PSO in the first place IS their lack of "viability"...so now they will be doubly un viable....is that it ?
These PSO Tenders will sure be an interesting read altogether....I'm sensing an Irish solution to an Irish Problem in the offing......;)
Ah they are currently viable while people are able to use them but take so many passengers away and it wont be long before the routes are cut to nothing and scrapped in favour of some twice a day localink service0 -
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Sam Russell wrote: »I thought CIE got a fixed amount for all FTP and capped at that, while Aircoach were getting a per journey amount.
Nope Sam,the entire FTS budget has been capped at 2010 levels.
There is no difference in the method of apportioning the FTS amount as it is on an agreed basis with the DSP.
The major difference is that the CIE group recieves it's allocation en bloc to the Holding Company,which then allocates the appropriate amount to each subsidiary.
Private operators are free to similarly negotiate an appropriate rate for their participation,which is subject to verification and possible inspection by the DSP.
However,it is fair to say that the DSP has historically maintained a minimal level of such monitoring,a aspect referrred to several times in the only accurate study ever carried out into the FTS back in 2000.
https://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/assets/pdf/BP5_Quinn_Free_Schemes.pdf
The net effect of the 2010 cap, is that any services introduced since then are not included in the FTS remit,although it is entirely open to any operator to honour DSP Passes at their own expense,should they consider it socially or commercially beneficial to do so. Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Sam Russell wrote: ».
You could introduce restricted cards, only valid for certain journey types.
You could introduce a Leap type card that requires validation and monitors use to highlight misuse.
Fraud avoidance is the most urgent requirement. . Reducing the cost has been achieved by capping the cost, but that cannot continue much longer.
From Q4 2015,The Old "Cornflakes Box" Free Travel Document will be Invalid for use.
Coincidentally with this,a requirement to Tag-On the Free Travel Card per journey will be introduced.
Either Bus Validator can be used,except when a Spouse/Partner/Companion is travelling in which case the second person MUST get a paper Ticket (Zero Value) in the same manner as a LeapCard Companion currently.
The 2015 date is a target,which it now appears will be achieved somewhat earlier,so I would suggest Summer 2015 as the date for the full changeover.
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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BE are allegedly to introduce changes to pass holders using expressway services or at the very least all commercially operated expressway services. Free Travel on these services will no longer exist and this will happen in the very near future. Just heard drivers discussing when it can happen and the amount of surcharge per pass. Staff are surprised its come in but its happening allegedly.
Interesting times ahead....
None of these alterations are last minute,off-the-cuff,or otherwise unconsidered.
The reality is,that following almost two-years of considerable internal review,it has finally hit home,that the Free Travel Scheme had deteriorated into a shambolic mess.
A number of scenario's were developed,and modeled before a loosely agreed combination of actions was commenced.
What we are now seeing is the actual changes on-the-ground now approaching introduction,and it will not be without considerable disruption (particularly to those NOT entitled to the benefit they had enjoyed for years).
In relation to the timeframe,it appears that issuance of the Free Travel enabled Card is running somewhat ahead of target,which has allowed some elements of the associated plan/s to be brought forward too.
It is a shame it had to come to this,but it was inevitable due to the total lack of any supervision and accountability on the part of Central Government and it's agencies.....nothing really new there I suppose ?
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Yeah, i'm still seeing brand new paper passes coming across my desk every day.
I simply can't wait for the unmitigated joy that my job will become when we have to start charging freebie holders something for their travel
Our station manager told me that in the last accounting period, free travel was roughly just over 65% of our issued tickets in the 4 stations he covers.
Crazy stuff and a tipping point has now been reached in this frankly unsustainable vote-buying scheme. Trains are leaving the station i work at daily with standing room only and considerably more than half the people on them are traveling utterly free of charge.
How are you supposed to convince people to pay for a ticket to travel on the same services?0 -
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From Q4 2015,The Old "Cornflakes Box" Free Travel Document will be Invalid for use.
What a nonsensical timeframe, especially as the system to replace one's FTP paper pass with a proper card is still currently "invite-only".
I've had my paper pass five years and it's barely hanging on despite being laminated...
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Not the first time some bus eireann employee broadcast utter crap to bus passengers. There was a driver on the Waterford route a couple of years ago that was telling all his passengers that JJ Kavanagh's were finished, couldn't afford new buses and those which had been bought would be repossessed for non payment. it is just crap from sour grapes wasters, People with a grudge or chip on their shoulder!Foggy it was said to a bus load of passengers, and they will have a service but it won't be free. Times are changing and for the better.
BE didn't give me a straight out answer when I queered it either..
You can see how routes are under pressure, BE came out today and said either use route 21 or lose it so the charge for passes is needed to sustain service.
and we all know that Bus Éireann couldn't give a straight answer with a steel rule.
Bus Éireann know that such changes will result in mass service reductions and mass redundancies but that will play right into their hands as the resulting strikes will result in the company going to the wall and will allow a sort of cleansing from within.
As for route 21 the slogan is "use it, don't lose it" but it also states "free travel for all pass holders".
It sounds like numbers on this route are so low thay are considering reducing frequency or getting rid of it and using other services to fill in the gaps.
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