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Suicide and men.

1356

Comments

  • #102
    Sauve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Good bump Bob :)
    Gonna leave this stickies for a while, given the season we're heading into.


  • #103
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    BobTheNihilist wrote: »
    Might as well bump this ta f**K.

    Xmas will be upon us shortly. Suicide rates are high this time of year. A lot of break ups, serious arguments and money worries fuels this.

    please talk to somebody if you feel down or in despair.
    Good time for your bump BobThe Nihilist,
    Thank U for your "Suggestion" reachout beyond yourself to break the cycle of thoughts that lead you to this final solution. There are little "mantras" that some people use, such as, "Look back in Anger, Look forward in Hope" Repetition until the negative cycle of thought and feeling is broken.
    Each "Survivor" develops their own personal method. All it takes is "willingness" to try.


  • #104
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    From Thursday's Guardian newspaper:
    Britain's male suicide rate is a national tragedy

    Our failure over 30 years to even dent the number of men who kill themselves is a scandal that has cost thousands of lives
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/20/britain-male-suicide-rate-tragedy-failure


  • #105
    D'Agger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭D'Agger


    This 'article' was posted on Reddit r/Ireland yesterday, figure it might spark some debate here.

    I don't suffer from depression, I've attended funerals of people who've committed suicide but I'm lucky enough to be able to say that I've managed to avoid being near the epicentre of a suicide related death but even I know that Doherty is looking at this from one side, he's acting under the assumption that people who take their lives are thinking logically - leaving his article way off the mark IMO. A topic as sensitive as this deserved more research & thought, from a national broadsheet you'd expect more.


  • #106
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Very naive article that completely fails to understand why someone takes their own life. He seems to favour the stigmatisation of it again which harks back to the church days and the criminalisation of the act. Fairly irresponsible of the Indo I think.


  • #107
    Knex*
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,477 ✭✭✭✭Knex*


    That article is pretty bad, you're right D'Agger.

    Two main things stood out for me in this short passage below:
    Instead, we're given the usual platitudes about how the person who, under the current code of language 'died by suicide' (as if they went out and forgot to wrap up, thus catching a bad dose of suicide) must have been going through some unbearable internal, tectonic pressure that finally cracked.

    And, of course, that is true. To a point.

    The bolded I found to fairly insensitive and showed an inkling into his lack of understanding as to what suicide is. Also, I don't really get what his point is, at all. If we change the word "by" to "from", is that suddenly different, and more correct in his eyes, as we also say phrases such as, "Died from cancer"?

    Being a smart ass when it comes to suicide and mental illness is a bit much, especially when you're writing what appears to be intended as a serious article about the problem that is suicide in Ireland today. "Catching a bad dose of suicide", that part, for me, made him seem like a dick, for want of a better term.

    Moving on..
    But people who prefer to talk about the unique, existential pain of the 'victim' are deliberately avoiding one of the most common emotions felt by those left behind. And that is one of almost unbearable, fruitless anger at that person for doing what they did.

    He reinforces his complete lack of understanding here for me.

    Having had some friends commit suicide in recent years, one a workmate with whom I became good enough friends with, and another a kid from my local area with whom we had all grown up alongside, I certainly did not feel anger at them. I felt sad, I felt empathy towards both the people themselves and the mental torment they went through, and also to their family. I suppose I even felt a bit of pity, although I'd certainly rather say it was all empathy.

    When I was younger and I first heard about suicide and listened to people getting angry about it (I remember one fella call his mate a "wanker" for doing so), I was perhaps on the side of those who got angry. What are these people throwing away? Why are they doing it? How could they be so dumb? How could they do this to their friends and family?

    But knowing what I know now, and I won't pretend to have any first hand experience of depression - I don't and I'm aware I can never fully understand what it is like because of it - I don't see these as being the right questions to be asking, nor the right attitude to have.

    A lot of the posts on boards have helped me massively with this mindset. Hearing people's first hand accounts of their turmoil and what they go through, it really helps to add depth to perspective.

    I haven't really structured this answer very well, and I'm perhaps too rushed to give this topic the justice that it deserves in that regard, but one thing that always stands out from conversations on suicide for me;

    Some people say its the coward's way out. In many cases, I honestly think its one of the bravest things you can do. I know for one I wouldn't be able to do it.

    He then finishes it all of with this, and its something I actually had to do a double take on. I don't think I even need to point out why this is beyond ridiculous and insensitive
    we are queasy and reluctant to apportion blame to the perpetrator. And someone who kills themselves should be seen as exactly that – the perpetrator, not some innocent bystander

    (Think I may have to come back to this post and edit it later)


  • #108
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Good post Knex.

    The comments on the article itself are more read worthy that the article.


  • #109
    Knex*
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,477 ✭✭✭✭Knex*


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Good post Knex.

    The comments on the article itself are more read worthy that the article.

    Hadn't spotted them before I posted. Some very valid retorts (pretty much what they are) to his article there.

    Glad he's getting called up on that shoddy journalism.


  • #110
    Porkpie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 717 ✭✭✭Porkpie


    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    Way to go to make suicidal people feel even worse about their situation. I'm sure they think plenty about the mess it will leave behind and feel awful about it but their pain has become just too unbearable. I remember someone saying before about depression, imagine getting your leg cut off - you would do anything to stop the pain. You don't know what these poor people are going through.
    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

    Sorry but that's just ridiculous and to be honest it sounds a little patronising.
    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    It's not that simple. No one just decides, for example 'oh my girlfriend just dumped me, everything was rosey, now I'm a little blue so I'll do myself in'.
    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    And while you're at it, why not start your own company and write an autobiography?
    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

    If only. Your advice might be helpful to someone who's feeling a little down or unfulfilled but I don't think you have much of an understanding of the serious issue of depression/suicide.


  • #111
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,168 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    One thing ive noticed over the years is that people do not kill themselves becasue they're a bit sad or in a spot of bother....they seem to kill themselves because something is telling them there is NO other way.


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  • #112
    Knex*
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,477 ✭✭✭✭Knex*


    Depression, and feeling suicidal, is not sadness. Not by most people's understanding of the word anyway.


  • #113
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    It's standing in front of a concrete wall with it permanently 2 inches from your face and not being able to move in any direction. For me, if I were physically imprisoned it would make very little difference to how my life is lived, might possibly even be an improvement.

    That is the sort of depths that are involved, and arguably there is a lot worse. That author just has no understanding, which is obvious, so I wouldn't take anything he says too seriously.


  • #114
    Soft Falling Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭Soft Falling Rain


    D'Agger wrote: »
    This 'article' was posted on Reddit r/Ireland yesterday, figure it might spark some debate here.

    I don't suffer from depression, I've attended funerals of people who've committed suicide but I'm lucky enough to be able to say that I've managed to avoid being near the epicentre of a suicide related death but even I know that Doherty is looking at this from one side, he's acting under the assumption that people who take their lives are thinking logically - leaving his article way off the mark IMO. A topic as sensitive as this deserved more research & thought, from a national broadsheet you'd expect more.

    From the article:
    Perhaps it's time to focus not merely on suicide prevention, but suicide shaming – how this act of selfishness will rip apart your entire family and they will never, ever be the same again.

    No-one should be "shamed" into anything. I understand the point he's trying to make but he has put it across in a deeply crass manner.

    I believe people should always reach out, no matter how hard it is because I firmly believe people can be helped through such a dark period. But the last thing I want to see is someone suffering silently and "getting on with things", just because they feel they owe something to their loved ones. I want people to reach out for themselves, not for others.


  • #115
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    I've been at a very low point lately & it gets right up my nostrils when someone comes over and just dismisses this very serious issue, or worse still, calls it selfish. What if you can't get past the hurt/upset/self loathing/abuse/inherent sadness or whatever it is that ails you?


  • #116
    Vision of Disorder
    Registered Users Posts: 645 ✭✭✭Vision of Disorder


    For what little it's worth when I've been down I've taken quite a lot from reading the stories of others who have experienced similar struggles in their lives. Both "A Life Too Short" about German goalkeeper Robert Enke and "Wrestling Reality" about pro wrestler Chris Kanyon were extremely helpful to me at different times.

    It helped to know that there were other people out there who had gone through what I was, it helped to normalise things for me and realise that other people had felt like I had, that I wasn't broken. There were parts in both books that I could empathise with on a level that surprised me.

    And sadly, given the eventual suicide of both men in question, their books brought home to me the importance of constant vigilance and helped make me aware that this is something I will probably have to battle against all my life.

    It may help others to pick up either or both of those books, just figured it was worth sharing.


  • #117
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    (13 March 2014)
    Viewpoint: Is macho culture causing young men to take their own lives?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26543095


  • #118
    D'Agger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭D'Agger


    Good article iptba, I feel like it only barely scratches the surface though regarding the macho culture.

    The two main things I took from it were the astonishing statistic on suicide being the leading cause of death for men between 20 & 49, and the point he makes about mental health in schools being as important as physical education - it really is and it's something that should be addressed.

    These aren't necessarily related to that article, but they're some thoughts that have come to mind since reading it that might generate some discussion here:

    Younger men are more susceptible to being influenced by what they see in the media and right now the main things being promoted are, dress sharp, get a nice watch, a nice car, get nice things, and while you're at it, get a nice body in the gym and you'll get a nice looking missus as a direct result of that. And the thing is, I've bought into it somewhat, I feel like most men do. I want to earn more money, have a nicer car than I currently have etc. but the difference is, I don't ever feel like this will define me.

    We live in a society where you're judged on appearance, this isn't a new concept either, it's been around for decades, nay, centuries. The key, so far as I'm concerned, is to invest some of yourself to this if you wish, but never give all of yourself to it. Balance is key. If you commit too much towards an ideal you strive towards, then, imo, you'll either be left feeling unfulfilled when you reach the goal and immediately seek a new challenge, or you'll despair if that goal isn't reached. Too much time spent working for more money, in the gym working towards the perfect body, looking through esquire etc. for what you should be wearing is not going to develop you as a person or allow you to learn much about yourself.


  • #119
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    (August 31 article)
    Why Suicide Is a Men's Issue

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jimmy-ocean/suicide-is-a-mens-issue_b_5710141.html


  • #120
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    (October 7 article)
    Professor Damien Ridge
    Professor of Health Studies at the University of Westminster

    Does the Answer to Helping Distressed Men Rest With You?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/professor-damien-ridge/does-the-answer-to-helping-distressed-men-rest-with-you_b_5939558.html
    And here lies the rub. We blame men for not getting help. But we don't talk about how we have first socialised men to be on their own, to keep their emotional vulnerability hidden. Subsequently, we get uncomfortable when we see men cry, or otherwise vulnerable. We may even mock men for it. I have seen partners say they are thinking of leaving their man who shows their softer emotions.

    The more I think about it, the more I think that masculinity is actually something that exists outside of men. It exists in your eyes. Because you have all these expectations about how men will be. Perhaps you think they should be strong, sexy and silent? As a professional, you may dread seeing upset men walk through your door because of the discomfort it raises in you. Whatever your perspective, you have strong views about how you want men to be.

    We have decided as a society not to provide people with the mental health help they need. We might as well have said that we will treat cancer, but not infections. But we have gone further with men. We are even more reluctant to give distressed men the help they need because of our particular investment in masculinity. Is it you who believes that boys will be boys? That there is nothing we can do to stop men committing suicide?

    Have you ever thought that the problem with masculinity rests with you? It is not that men won't get help for vulnerability. Perhaps reluctant men are just being realistic about your response based on past experiences? They suspect they will be judged not only for their mental health, but on their masculinity. It is time to change.


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  • #121
    DoYouEvenLift
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,188 ✭✭✭DoYouEvenLift


    ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.


    Try maintaining this little opinion of yours if you ever encounter depression and other mental health issues. And I'm not talking about this pathetic misuse of the term depression losers seem to be using more commonly nowadays where they fail a sh!tty exam or encounter other trivial bullsh!t and claim they're depressed, I'm talking about true anguish where every conscious second is another second of agonising mental pain where the only way out they can think of, since they're not in a good state of mind to look for help, is putting a permanent end to it all. And lots of people who even do manage to seek help are just treated like an experiment and given medication that can make them even worse until their next session and so on.


    People like this guy are why a lot of men still aren't comfortable talking about their problems, I bet he could have a close friend approach him looking for comfort and advice and a likely response of his would be "man up!"


    Edit: strong bumped thread


  • #122
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Stickied again for the season that is in it.

    Please see our resource directory for a list of numbers that can help

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056299528

    If you have concerns or are feeling suicidal you can PM turn2me.org through your boards account. Alternatively visit www.turn2me.org

    If you need advice to help you find a threapist please see this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055169338

    1life is a dedicated 24 hour freephone national suicide prevention helpline.
    FREEPHONE 1800 24 7 100 or text HELP to 51444

    Console
    Console is a Charity supporting and helping people bereaved through suicide. Helpline 1800 201 890

    Aware is a National Support Organisation for People with Depression. They also run local help groups where people with depression and their families meet up.
    Tel 1890 30 33 02

    The Samaritans
    helpline 116 123

    SuicideIreland.com

    Pieta House - The centre for the prevention of self-harm and suicide.

    The Black Dog - Self-help site for men and women coping with mental distress.

    Grow - Mental Health Organisation which helps poeple who are suffering from mental help problems

    Save our Sons and Daughters - campaign to raise awareness of suicide in Ireland


  • #123
    JaseBelleVie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 936 ✭✭✭JaseBelleVie


    I've had three friends commit suicide over the last 8 years or so. Two young men and a young woman. I wept non-stop for ages afterwards. The devastation that their untimely deaths caused their loved ones, their friends and everyone that knew them was unbelievable. Young people, in the prime of their lives. But obviously they were hiding demons that nobody, not even their family or close friends knew.

    But the one that will always stick in my mind was the time my best friend attempted to commit suicide. We are living together. Have been for the last 5 years. One of the best housemates you could ask for. I love this guy like a brother.

    He broke up with his girlfriend and it hit him really hard. Along with a couple of other things, this just pushed him to the edge. I came home from work one evening. I found him in the kitchen. He had cut his arm open with a knife. The amount of blood was unbelievable. I spent an agonising 15 minutes cradling him in my arms waiting for the ambulance to arrive. He had even left a note for me, begging me to forgive him. Thankfully, the ambulance arrived in time and he was saved.

    One of the most numbing experiences of that incident, was when I arrived home from the hospital that night. And I had to mop up the blood from the kitchen floor and clean my best friend's blood off the cupboards, counters and the sink. In something of a bit of symbolism, I broke the knife he'd used and threw it in the bin.

    Usually after work, I go for a coffee and a chat with some co-workers, and I don't arrive home until later. For some reason, that day I didn't. I arrived home earlier than usual. Every single day, I shudder to think what I would have arrived home to had I gone for that coffee.

    He lost a lot of blood and he nearly died. I couldn't stop crying and feeling so awful for days afterwards.

    I remember when he finally arrived home from the hospital, we had a bit of a confrontation. I was crying, and angry at the same time. I called him a 'stupid bastard' and screamed at him about how I would have felt had I arrived home later than I did. He cried and said he was so sorry. I will admit, I went overboard and called him 'disgraceful' and a 'f*cking selfish c*nt' and all other manner of horrible things. I apologised so sincerely for saying that within a few minutes. We hugged it out and just cried and cried.

    This guy is the best friend I've ever had and will ever have. We've been through so much together. That moment when I walked into the kitchen that night and saw him is a moment that is burned into my mind forever. I will never forget it.

    My friend has gotten a lot better. He's seen a therapist, he's far more open about talking to me and others about what bothers him, he's far happier and it's just wonderful to see. He also has refused to get plastic surgery on his arm. The scar is vivid on his arm. He says that it is a reminder for him. A reminder to never let himself get to that stage again.

    My life has been touched by suicide far too often. My best friend is lucky that he's financially in a position to go and see private therapists and get the help he needs. But far too many people are not in a position to pay for much needed mental health services. The above resources are essential.

    Despite what I may have screamed in a moment of anger, suicidal people are not selfish, nor are they cowards, nor are they bad people. They need help. They are people struggling with life in a way we cannot begin to fathom and they need our help and our support. They do not need scorn or platitudes about 'Can you not just try to be happy' or some other such sh*t.

    For example, would you walk up to a cancer patient and say 'Could you not just try to NOT have cancer?'. Would you f*ck.

    Sorry for the long post, by the way. I just got carried away a bit.

    Final thought. For anyone who feels suicidal, you are not alone. The people who love you, your friends and your family, are there for you. There are people who can help you. You are NOT alone. Seek help. When you are walking in the dark, groping around to find your way, hold out your hand. For there is a person there waiting to take your hand and guide you to the light. It is not a sign of weakness to look for help. The strongest thing you can do is admit that you need help and to look for it. Please, don't be afraid.


  • #124
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Wow. Powerful post JaseHeath. Hopefully your buddy will be ok for the longterm


  • #125
    JaseBelleVie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 936 ✭✭✭JaseBelleVie


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Wow. Powerful post JaseHeath. Hopefully your buddy will be ok for the longterm

    Thanks, Pawwed. It just kinda all came spilling out.

    And he's fine now, thankfully. It's been tough. But between the therapy sessions and being able to blow off steam to me whenever he needs, it's helped. Thankfully, he's never down or anything any more really. Times when he is feeling down, he talks about it now. To me or to his doctor or to someone. It's good to talk. :)


  • #126
    Amica
    Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭Amica


    There's another article on the Journal website today that might be of interest. I can't post the link because I'm a new user


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  • #127
    chinwag
    Registered Users Posts: 427 ✭✭chinwag


    Amica wrote: »
    There's another article on the Journal website today that might be of interest. I can't post the link because I'm a new user

    http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/male-suicide-rates-five-times-female-ireland-1915621-Feb2015/


  • #128
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/fergus-finlay/we-have-to-mind-the-boys-and-girls-who-suffer-mental-health-issues-310362.html


  • #129
    Buk0wski
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Buk0wski


    Mental illness/depression is a hard thing to understand at times.

    As a teenager/young adult I was in great health, very physically very fit, succesful in school/college, very good at sport, good network of friends, good with the ladies etc and from the outside I was one of the "last guys" you'd ever think would be thinking about suicide.
    Yet in spite of everything seeming perfect I struggled really badly through prolonged bouts of what I now know to be severe depression all the while smiling to the world.

    I suppose we become experts at hiding what is really going on and the smile/happy demeanor is a defence mechanism.

    I'm as good now, at 39, as I've ever been but always mindful of the Black dog sneaking up behind me!

    Funny thing is now from the outside in the past 4 years I've had to deal with
    *redundancy
    *setting up new business( a struggle)
    *sudden death of my father
    * repeated IVF failures
    * miscarriage
    * My wife diaganosed with cancer of womb
    * Serious health problems with my elderly mother
    and yet I feel better than I did as a young stud. I suppose you never know what is in someones elses head.

    Mind yourself gents and take help where and when you can get it. Helping others and talking to select trusted friends/partner are mind medicines along with sport and the outdoors


  • #130
    beertons
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 23,145 ✭✭✭✭beertons


    A nephew of Mrs Beery is being burried on Wednesday. Was found in work yesterday morning, the day of his 30th birthday. Depressed for 4 years, wouldn't go see someone about it. His gf broke up with him last week. 13 years together. Was the eldest of 8.

    There shouldn't be a stigma anymore about talking to someone. Poor guy.

    I didn't know the guy really, so it hasn't done anything on me. Bit of a shock I won't see him on my annual visit down south. It's the rest of his house I feel sorry for. And the poor girl that's blaming it all on herself.


  • #131
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    ive given this subject alot of thought over the past 6 year and with 2 attemps. i am not a coward as it takes alot of courage to make such a final decicion like that. i have a 10in scar up arm from the wrist and a stab scar to the stomock. its very hard to do it properly though as its such an un natural act. i wish i could be normal like most people but i cant stop my depression. i have tried everything to change and i keep telling myself if i could just find a new job that would distract me for a while but that is a task in itself in dublin .


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  • #132
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Iansh please have a look at the resources available in the post above to get the help you need and deserve.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #133
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Long February 12 article
    Why Men Are Killing Themselves
    BY FINLAY YOUNG
    http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/20/suicide-men-305913.html
    It looks at the issue from various perspectives.

    I thought this was interesting:
    Suicide jumped up the political agenda in early 2015 when the deputy prime minister Nick Clegg called for an overhaul of how the UK’s National Health Service tackles suicide. He proposed the widespread adoption of a “zero suicides” approach, following a campaign by The Henry Ford Health System, a healthcare provider based in Detroit, Michigan, which decreased the rate of suicide in its patient population by 75% in its first four years. The strategy, which has already inspired a similar approach in Merseyside, includes training all staff in suicide prevention, developing a system for staff to check in with patients by phone, and assigning patients different levels of risk and accompanying protocols. In the past two years, not a single suicide has been recorded at the Henry Ford Health System.


  • #134
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here.

    Suicide is in a way selfish so in a way with the benefit of hindsight i was selfish. Selfish for not thinking about the people that found me.

    Many years ago i went down to the train tracks and sat in the middle of the tracks for hours but being the middle of the night no trains arrived and after several hours of just sitting, literally sitting in the tracks doing nothing i got up and went home saying nothing to no one.

    A few months later i took a load of tablets whilst everyone was in bed. My father found me that morning with carpet burns all over my legs and arms from fitting on the floor not long from death. I remained in ICU for 6 days on life support where my parents and family stayed with me for the length i was in and according to nurses the first time they left me was on the 2nd day i'd fully came to.

    The reason for my story is to show that i do have a bit of insight on how people feel when doing this but my selfish comment comes from not thinking about the train driver that may have come upon me that night or not thinking it'd be my parents that would have found their son dead. I was told after which i dont think she knows to this day that i know that my mother had to attend counselling for the stress that I'd caused.

    I'm not saying that joe down the road that maybe is contemplating something is selfish as what i said earlier I'm speaking about my own experience in hindsight.

    To be very honest i still think about doing something and would have absolutely no hesitation if my parents and a few select family members weren't around.

    If you've read this far I'll just finish off by saying if your thinking of doing something to yourself,think of your family and friends. You'll be gone and won't know a thing but it'll be them left with the whys, what ifs etc


  • #135
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Interesting article

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32231774


  • #136
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Interesting article

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32231774
    A few extracts:
    But however articulate he may have been, Chris never discussed his state of mind with his family. Stephen is convinced that this inability or unwillingness in men of all ages to talk is the key to explaining the huge imbalance in male and female suicide rates.

    "He didn't want me to know that he was struggling inside. He wanted me to think that he was coping, that he was strong."

    ---
    "The major thing that put me off talking to somebody was this idea of weakness. If you couldn't sort your problems out yourself, then you were a weak person."

    That perception is central to understanding why men take their lives in such shocking numbers, says Jane Powell, chief executive of the Campaign Against Living Miserably or CALM.

    "It's boiled down to the one thing they can be, should be, is strong. And if we're going to add anything to that, it's silent. And the phrase that comes back is to 'man up', to 'grow a pair'.

    ---
    The number of people who die this way is shocking. There are no easy answers and the conclusion I took away is simple but important. It is summed up in a poster produced by the charity CALM which simply reads - the Strong, Silent, Dead type.


  • #137
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    (Irish data)
    Over 1,000 builders died by suicide during recession
    HEALTH 28 APR 2015

    Almost half of male suicides during the depths of the recession were of men with a construction or production background, a new report reveals.

    http://utv.ie/News/2015/04/28/Over-1000-builders-died-by-suicide-during-recession-36292


  • #138
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A mate of mine took his own life about 9 months ago, and I still can't get my head around it. He was one of the most positive people I've ever met.


  • #139
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    The amount of generalities that surround suicide has always irked me.

    Things like:
    - all men are bad at talking about their feelings!
    - Suicide is a cowards way out.
    - Permanent solution to a temporary problem.
    - Didn't think of the people they are leaving behind ,etc.

    I think it belittles the issue. To assert that someone hasn't thought long and hard about the effect their actions will have on those around them is ridiculous. They most likely have, and unfortunately they have came to the conclusion that their loved ones would be better without them.

    The phrase, a permanent solution to a temporary problem, is banded about. Mental health issues are not just a fleeting thing. They can exist for a life time. Someone may have struggled their entire existence, and eventually feel that they can't go on. Is this a selfish act? Not at all in my opinion. I actually think assisted suicide would benefit a lot of people, however that is a discussion for another day.

    The thing I also say to people is this. Try standing on a high structure, on a balcony for example, and imagine jumping off. Really jumping off. It is certainly not an easy thing to do. Now if you imagine how a person must have felt, so that they were in a situation were that feeling was better than the pain they were trying to deal with!


  • #140
    Cold War Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Cold War Kid


    Well I don't think all men are bad at talking about their feelings, but I would have thought that the conditioning which makes it difficult for men, in a lot of cases, to express their true feelings, was a factor.

    If a woman is upset, e.g. in the workplace, and cries, it's par for the course. It's seriously unusual for guys to do that. A guy crying is a rarity - and there's certainly nothing wrong with it.


  • #141
    Cold War Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Cold War Kid


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    To assert that someone hasn't thought long and hard about the effect their actions will have on those around them is ridiculous. They most likely have, and unfortunately they have came to the conclusion that their loved ones would be better without them.

    The phrase, a permanent solution to a temporary problem, is banded about. Mental health issues are not just a fleeting thing. They can exist for a life time. Someone may have struggled their entire existence, and eventually feel that they can't go on. Is this a selfish act? Not at all in my opinion. I actually think assisted suicide would benefit a lot of people, however that is a discussion for another day.

    The thing I also say to people is this. Try standing on a high structure, on a balcony for example, and imagine jumping off. Really jumping off. It is certainly not an easy thing to do. Now if you imagine how a person must have felt, so that they were in a situation were that feeling was better than the pain they were trying to deal with!
    Really really agree with this.

    So sorry to read about your friend Ulysses.


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  • #142
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    Cold War Kid wrote: »
    Well I don't think all men are bad at talking about their feelings, but I would have thought that the conditioning which makes it difficult for men, in a lot of cases, to express their true feelings, was a factor.

    If a woman is upset, e.g. in the workplace, and cries, it's par for the course. It's seriously unusual for guys to do that. A guy crying is a rarity - and there's certainly nothing wrong with it.

    I know you don't mean to do it, but you have just done exactly what I was saying.

    You have just implied that all men bottle up their feelings, and all women are like faucets that are constantly turned on full, pouring every last emotion out.

    Life, and people are not black and white!


  • #143
    Cold War Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Cold War Kid


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    I know you don't mean to do it, but you have just done exactly what I was saying.

    You have just implied that all men bottle up their feelings, and all women are like faucets that are constantly turned on full, pouring every last emotion out.

    Life, and people are not black and white!
    You need to quit with the "all" men - nobody is saying anything about "all" men, only you.
    Of the men themselves who find it difficult to express their innermost feelings, it isn't them, it's a prevailing view that it's weird for men to cry. Nobody said "All women are faucets that are constantly turned on full, pouring every last emotion out". Putting words in people's mouths is not helpful.


  • #144
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    Cold War Kid wrote: »
    You need to quit with the "all" men - nobody is saying anything about "all" men, only you.
    Of the men themselves who find it difficult to express their innermost feelings, it isn't them, it's a prevailing view that it's weird for men to cry. Nobody said "All women are faucets that are constantly turned on full, pouring every last emotion out". Putting words in people's mouths is not helpful.

    Yeah will do, boss! Sorry I didn't know my comments were so detrimental..Get off the soapbox :rolleyes:


  • #145
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I actually think this is where homophobia actually impacts *all* guys, gay and straight.

    There's a terrible fear of being presumed to be "a bit gay" simply for being able to express emotions and I think it's a big barrier in male communication.

    I'm hopeful that as the whole gay thing becomes a non issue that it'll actually help all guys to just not worry about letting the emotions out now and then and actually talking.

    We've created a society (and I'm talking much broader than Ireland here) where lads are expected to be emotionless automatons, go out and do tough work, never complain, act as cannon fodder for armies and generally just shut up and take it.

    Let's not forget than its only a 100 years ago guys suffering from post traumatic stress and serious problems from witnessing horrific scenes in WWI were accused of being cowards and shot or at the very least absolutely destroyed for it.

    We've treated men extremely badly, particularly since the Victorian era and I think it's something we tend to overlook a lot because the societal attitudes still cause problems.

    I don't actually think there's THAT big a difference between men and women and how they feel about things. We're not two distinct species! It's just that as a bloke we're taught from an early age to be nearly Vulcans !

    There's also a tendency to think that expressions of rage / violence are macho and acceptable but you can't dare say you're sad or just need a hug!

    American society is much more extreme on this but we tend to take a lot of cultural cues from US media so, what happens there matters here too.

    The main thing is you need to be able to talk openly about what's going on in your head. We're not evolved to operate in isolation. If there's no one to talk to, talk to a counsellor or ring one of the helplines but just open up about it.


  • #146
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Going unregged for this, to well known. Depression is a right bsatard.

    It hit me when I was 18, ended up in a hospital in Letterkenny. Tried to end it twice, more of a cry for help really. Then I was at my lowest ebb and tried it for real. Was escorted by my dad and three uncles, boxed into the back of a car, back to St Conals in Letterkenny. Was kept there for a month on Librium.

    Fast forward to the present day. In my forties, own business, wife and two kids, and I am fecked. Recession killing me literally, head is in turmoil. Depression is never far away. People think I am a moody bollix, they have no idea. Lying here at 4 in the morning, cannot sleep, may just go away by myself for the day thursday, clear the head. I have been to the doctor and he has given me medication for stress and anti d's. He admits he is seeing lots of guys who cannot cope. Busting their backsides trying to provide for their families and getting nowhere fast.

    I know multiple people who have killed themselves, I know a train driver who is fecked up because someone jumped in front of him. Its a vicious circle for all concerned. I cut a guy down from a tree who hung himself, could not bare to watch anything like that on the tv since. Guys have an inherent problem expressing themselves, I know I do. I see multiple references to different support groups, if you are in turmoil, use them.

    We have to stop this trend. Good Luck everyone.


  • #147
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    From today's Irish Independent:
    Text line a breakthrough in male suicide prevention
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/text-line-a-breakthrough-in-male-suicide-prevention-31411994.html


  • #148
    mg1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭mg1982


    iptba wrote: »
    From today's Irish Independent:

    I was never aware of that service. But i think its good especially for men as we tend to not be the best at talking or expressing our emotions. Been battling with my mental health for 17 years now. Its a long and lonely road.


  • #149
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/one-in-three-of-those-killed-in-car-crashes-had-no-seatbelt-on-31453081.html

    until its understood how many men use the car to kill themselves statistics like this will be misunderstood


  • #150
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    (Article posted on September 7 I think)
    This is the UK's first mental health centre for men
    By Jim Connolly
    Newsbeat reporter

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34156025/this-is-the-uks-first-mental-health-centre-for-men


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  • #151
    mg1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭mg1982


    iptba wrote: »
    (Article posted on September 7 I think)

    Sounds like a good idea. When you consider nearly 80 percent of all suicides are by men its something thats needed in this country as well.


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