Throwers and throws coaching

Bruce7 · 06-07-2012 5:06pm

At least it got a top thrower to post in the thread. Good luck tomorrow Anita!

Now let's see if it works again.

Time that David Storl was knocked off his perch.

longjump67 · 06-07-2012 5:06pm

javthrow wrote: »

Thanks for the support, great to see people supporting you out there when all they want to do is knock you down and off her ' perch' when your trying to do well.. i'm sure when your daughter gets to my standard if she is still at it, you wouldnt be saying the same thing.... oh i really do wish you come and introduce yourself to me at the track in santry natinal championships... Mr Donegal...:eek: rememeber i have represented and performed well at internatinals meets... good to hear you say that... i think you have to much to say really about things you quite dont simply understand...That Anita Fitzgibbon is a very successful business women and athlete... ass

Think you misundertood me I did not say any thing about Anita Fitzgibbon being knocked of her perch if you go back and read the next few posts you will see that I wasn't sure who Anita was as Im new to the throws being from a long jump background. the only throwers I knew when I was competing were the Ledgend Terry Mc Hugh, Damien Crawford, Phil Conway and a few others.

You will also see that I have seen her throw and said that my daughter had a long way to go to reach her standard.

Please read the posts carefully you will see that it was not one of my posts, I apologise for any offence caused but I will also say that I was an athlete for some 18 years, a coach for the last 15 years and an official for the last 8 years so to I think my understanding of the sport is quite good, I am not an ass.

I would not attack any athlete's ability on this site.

RoyMcC · 06-07-2012 7:49pm

Ouch

Thanks ecoli. Anita, that was my post. I'm sorry you took it entirely in the wrong context. I was fortunate enough to officiate you on the throws line at Irishtown one evening and I was totally impressed with, not only your ability but your good humour - on that occasion.

As ecoli has said my comment was in the context that you are the woman that all others need to measure up to if they are to succeed. I was commenting on a very young lady new to the game and was holding you up as an example to follow.

Hope that sorts it out.

longjump67 · 07-07-2012 12:40am

I hope this doesn't effect her performance this weekend, it's a pity she didn't return to the site to see the last few posts which would clear the air a bit.
Anyway will be down in Dublin in the AM to watch some good throwing.

a_non_a_mouse · 07-07-2012 10:52pm

longjump67 wrote: »

I hope this doesn't effect her performance this weekend,

Didn't appear to....just under the 50m and looked very impressive.

Throwing a bit of a mixed bag today (IMO)
decent enough throwing in women's hammer and discus but men's shot was a bit less than expected. I had been hoping to see someone break or come close to 17m but it was won with just under 16m.

Bruce7 · 07-07-2012 11:25pm

Shot was a strange one today all right. A bit subdued all round. The other circle is better to throw from IMO. Not really sure why...

Here's to good headwinds for the discus tomorrow.

Bruce7 · 09-07-2012 1:20pm

Useful link.

http://www.convertmythrow.com/#

I think this question was asked at some point on this thread. You can input the distance you threw with one weight and it will estimate how much you would throw with another weight. The layout isn't the most intuitive, but you get the hang of it after a while.

So, for example, if you can throw 16m with the 6k shot (I wish), this equates to 14.55m with the 7.26

etc.

ecoli · 11-07-2012 7:03pm

Jacko Gill sets Championship record at world Juniors not once.......... but Twice

21.74 in the first round and followed up with a 22.20 throw in the 5th round

Bruce7 · 12-07-2012 9:55am

He doesn't turn 18 until the end of this year.

World record is 22.73 set by David Storl a few weeks before his 19th birthday.

RoyMcC · 12-07-2012 12:44pm

Is that with a 6k shot (though I know he can chuck the senior weight further than most as well)?

Bruce7 · 12-07-2012 6:10pm

RoyMcC wrote: »

Is that with a 6k shot (though I know he can chuck the senior weight further than most as well)?

Yes, the 6k. His PBs are below. He has the u-18 world record with the 5k

5 kg: 24.45 m

6 kg: 22.31 m

7.26 kg: 20.38 m

a_non_a_mouse · 13-07-2012 10:46am

Best of luck to McCabe and McGuigian today in the Hammer qualifying.
Proabably need big PB's to make the cut but anything can happen, so fingers crossed

longjump67 · 16-07-2012 2:34am

longjump67 wrote: »

Last comp for my daughter before the All-Irelands next weekend and things are going well a new pb in the javelin 28.00m
In training she is throwing around 27 -28m with a 3kg Hammer (we have nothing lighter) and the Discus is the only ropey event at the moment as one night its 24 - 25m the next it could be 20 - 21m.
Overall she has improved steadily all year and think we have peaked nicely for the nationals, fingers -crossed.

Well the All-Irelands are over and pleased to say my daughter had 2 pb's which resulted in 2 Silver medals.
Javelin (400g) 28.15m pb
Hammer (2.5kg) 31.13m pb by almost 7metres.
Discus (0.75kg) 22.38m in the middle of a massive downpour.

Overall she has improved steadily thoughout the year and I think she has potential in the Hammer as she is still learning the turns but did manage 2 turns at the weekend.:D

Bruce7 · 18-07-2012 10:11am

http://www.rte.ie/sport/olympics/athletics/2012/0717/329510-past-olympians-conway-looks-back-at-munich-1972/

Piece on Phil Conway

a_non_a_mouse · 18-07-2012 11:00am

New U23 Hammer record and a new recruit to the ranks of Irish throwers*

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=26693

Delighted on both counts.

(* yes, I know he is Irish, but previously he competed for USA and wasn't aware until I read the previous article from Phil Conway that he had declared for Ireland)

RoyMcC · 18-07-2012 9:17pm

Bruce7 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/olympics/athletics/2012/0717/329510-past-olympians-conway-looks-back-at-munich-1972/

Piece on Phil Conway

Excellent. I got to know Phil quite well whilst in Dublin. Watching coaches like him, working with athletes in all kinds of crap weather, is inspirational. You've got to have a love of the sport to spend your time getting cold and wet putting in hours with athletes you know are quite likely going to lose interest at some point and go and do something else.

But they just keep coming back and giving it their best shot. Those guys are the bedrock of the sport and I can think of no better way to thank them than to try to follow their example as best one can.

a_non_a_mouse · 19-07-2012 11:20am

RoyMcC wrote: »

Watching coaches like him, working with athletes in all kinds of crap weather, is inspirational.

yeah, Phil is defo one of the good guys.
the respect he shows for all athletes in competitions is an example for other officials.

just thinking about McCullough being added to the hammer mix...
he's still u23 next year.
national u23 in 2011 there was 1 u23.
in 2013....you could have competition for spot at European u23....
COULD have....McCullough, McGuigan, McCabe, Barry, Furlong, Doyle plus others in a decent supporting cast....
Not sure what standard AAI will put on it...but official standard is 63.50m...
looking forward to it already!

a_non_a_mouse · 23-07-2012 4:40pm

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/a-love-affair-with-a-ball-and-chain-3175741.html

Piece on Declan Hegarty

javthrow · 23-07-2012 11:29pm

Hi everyone god a real stir is right!!! All went well for me over my last three comps by hitting the 49's... I understand the context of the message now but can easily been picked up wrong.. On and upwards from here. Oh your not an ass now.

i take that back. Im quite a fiesty one when i get going!! Maybe next time I'm out throwing you can introduce yourself as it would be nice to meet after all this!!! I promise I'll be nice:) thanks for the real support .. Throwing this weekend in Wales so hopefully next time it's the 50's:)

longjump67 · 24-07-2012 9:36am

javthrow wrote: »

Hi everyone god a real stir is right!!! All went well for me over my last three comps by hitting the 49's... I understand the context of the message now but can easily been picked up wrong.. On and upwards from here. Oh your not an ass now. i take that back. Im quite a fiesty one when i get going!! Maybe next time I'm out throwing you can introduce yourself as it would be nice to meet after all this!!! I promise I'll be nice:) thanks for the real support .. Throwing this weekend in Wales so hopefully next time it's the 50's:)

Great to see you pop back on this thread and delighted that we've cleared up any misunderstanding. I was at the nationals and not a million miles away either (I was officiating) so decided not to make myself known as it might have affected your performance. Had my daughter down with me and she saw you throw and when I asked her what she thought about the womens Javelin comp all she could say was "WOW".:eek:

It would be great if you could find the time to be a regular on this thread, as one of our top athletes your imput would be most welcome. We all feel that the throwers in Ireland do not get the media attention or recognition that they deserve. Mind Ireland could be on the cusp of a throwing revival, some good young hammer throwers about now and it would be great to see the javelin get a boost in the arm (Pardon the pun) with someone like yourself hitting over the 50m mark on a regular basis.

Should be down at the national League finals in Tullamore in August and hope to see you throw then and maybe you will be hitting the magic 50m by then, wishing you all the best in your career.

Trevor O Connell · 02-08-2012 10:52am

I've been asking a few people why they choose glide over spin in terms of shot put technique.

Most these people are much bigger then me in terms of build but most of them gave the reason, stability

They felt when they spin, they loose stability in the mid-part of the spin

Most said this was down to strength i.e. they felt they were not strong enough

But am I correct in assuming, provided you know how to do a spin

That a poor core could be a major factor in stability if you choose that technique over the glide

Trevor

RoyMcC · 02-08-2012 11:56am

Most seasoned putters have tried both and will have found out which suits them.

I'd say that your assumption is correct. It's easier to hold the body position in a straight-line glide than in the rotational which sets up other forces.

It's no coincidence though that most of the top boys favour rotational, and they will have spent a lot of time doing core work.

Bruce7 · 02-08-2012 12:34pm

RoyMcC wrote: »

Most seasoned putters have tried both and will have found out which suits them.

I'd say that your assumption is correct. It's easier to hold the body position in a straight-line glide than in the rotational which sets up other forces.

It's no coincidence though that most of the top boys favour rotational, and they will have spent a lot of time doing core work.

Maybe the mods could merge this with the throws thread?

Ideally there should be no pause or deceleration in the centre of the circle in both the glide and the spin, so the core should not need to play a role in stabilising, or rebalancing, or getting back into position, at the centre of the circle. If it does, this is indicative of bad technique from the back of the circle.

In both the glide and rotation the hips should be ahead of the shoulders at delivery to create torque / stretch, so the core (specifically the obliques) plays the same role in both techniques - transferring force from the legs to the implement during the block.

If you are off balance or out of position in the centre of the circle, your priority should be to work on your balance out of the back of the circle, not developing your core strength so that you can muscle yourself back into position in the centre , as this will result in the deceleration / pausing that you are trying to avoid at all costs

I believe this applies to the glide and the spin equally.

RoyMcC · 02-08-2012 12:53pm

Yes, totally agree that if you get in wrong at the back then you're probably toast anyway by delivery. However proper conditioning will help minimise the damage in competition. And you're less likely to get out of shape with a basic glide.

Bruce, what would you say about progressing a youngster from a standing throw? I hate the side-on shuffle but the transition from standing to glide is a bit fierce for many.

Trevor O Connell · 02-08-2012 1:18pm

I think even with the standing throw its hard to get it right. To get that real power where you body lifts and your right back leg powers through

a_non_a_mouse · 02-08-2012 1:21pm

RoyMcC wrote: »

It's no coincidence though that most of the top boys favour rotational, and they will have spent a lot of time doing core work.

true...but don't forget defending Olympic champ is a glider and so is the current world champ. (talking men's...most top women are gliders)

RoyMcC wrote:

Bruce, what would you say about progressing a youngster from a standing throw? I hate the side-on shuffle but the transition from standing to glide is a bit fierce for many.

What about the switchback technique as a progression from standing?

Bruce7 · 02-08-2012 1:31pm

RoyMcC wrote: »

Yes, totally agree that if you get in wrong at the back then you're probably toast anyway by delivery. However proper conditioning will help minimise the damage in competition. And you're less likely to get out of shape with a basic glide.

Bruce, what would you say about progressing a youngster from a standing throw? I hate the side-on shuffle but the transition from standing to glide is a bit fierce for many.

You could try this. Phil Conway uses it with beginners. I think he calls it a shuffle back. Assuming a right handed thrower.

1. Start with both feet shoulder width apart at back of circle.
() ()

2. Take short step back with left foot
()(()

()

3. Step back and turn right foot aiming for centre of circle
()

<<>

4. Left foot to front of circle (power position)
<>

<<>

5. Throw
()

()()

Feet will have turned 180 degrees.

Good resources here: http://www.coachkrall.com/Articles/

Trevor O Connell · 02-08-2012 2:30pm

I think this video is very good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3PER52irKI

From my own experience I find it so hard to engage my right foot / hips

I throw it all from my upper body i.e. arm, I make no use of my legs in fact any time I do my throw goes backwards

My standing throw is okay but my glide is awful

But I think for young people its different when you learn something at a young age it stays with you for life

For example I do russian twists over hurdles with great ease, and its down to the fact that I learned to do them at 17 to 18 years old

I like your post above Bruce, must try that

RoyMcC · 02-08-2012 3:59pm

Good stuff Bruce, I'll check those links out further, and I'll also try Phil's drill at an earlier opportunity - tonight probably

Trevor I find it useful to go through the 'chain reaction' very slowly, shot (or disc or jav) held still while the right foot turns through the ankle, then knee, hip and shoulder - only then does the arm and implement become active. It's better than instructing athletes to 'throw with your legs' when they have no idea of what you're on about.

I'll check out the vid as well.

Nice to get technical learning done through Boards!

Trevor O Connell · 02-08-2012 4:22pm

Rory this is all new to me.

Just learning as I go along so I'm far from an expert on the subject

But yeah that's what I try to do too

Breaking the move in to small jig saw pieces

But I reckon younger athletes will get it alot quicker then an older person like myself

For example rotation,

I got to be honest, while I try it at home, I'd be too fearful to try it in a competition in case I make a pure ass out of myself.

That's something that most young people don't fear they just try it and what the heck

Great discussion

Trevor O Connell · 02-08-2012 4:25pm

I may as well ask another question while I'm on

What is the differential between a standing throw and say glide or rotation

1 to 2 meters or more

Am I right in assuming if you can glide throw 13m, you should be close to a 11m standing throw

Trevor

RoyMcC · 02-08-2012 5:01pm

If you've done a bit of discus then rotational shot is an easy enough transition - the feet movement is more or less identical.

Yes, I'd say that differential is not far off - increasing perhaps as you begin to handle increased explosiveness without technique breaking down.

Just developing the discussion, do you guys do a lot of discus throwing into the cage, with a rubber training discus? John Hillier (coach to Duquemin & Okoye) introduced this to us some time ago. Certainly during the winter months John gets his throwers to do literally hundreds of throws into the cage, continually adjusting technique. It beats chucking out onto the grass all the time and having to plod out to collect.

Then, by the early spring, the throwers are gagging to throw out and they've got a great technical base from which to do so.

Not sure if this practice is widespread but I've rarely seen it elsewhere.

Bruce7 · 02-08-2012 5:43pm

I think this is a great idea. I fully intend to get myself set up indoors somewhere for the winter with a net to throw into. If the worst comes to the worst, it will be my garage, but I'm hoping that a gym will allow me to do it if I bring along a nice thick mat to protect their floor.

RoyMcC · 02-08-2012 6:01pm

Bruce7 wrote: »

I think this is a great idea. I fully intend to get myself set up indoors somewhere for the winter with a net to throw into. If the worst comes to the worst, it will be my garage, but I'm hoping that a gym will allow me to do it if I bring along a nice thick mat to protect their floor.

Throw with an identical weight rubber disc though, not a regular one :eek:

Trevor O Connell · 02-08-2012 6:30pm

I saw that on youtube too, throwing in to net, saw it for javelin too. Great idea I think.

Trying to get some place you can do this is the thing and good mats are not cheap

Trevor

Bruce7 · 03-08-2012 10:27pm

a_non_a_mouse wrote: »

true...but don't forget defending Olympic champ is a glider and so is the current world champ.

And they came 1st and 2nd at the Olympics - 3cm between them.

RoyMcC · 09-08-2012 8:42am

Great pic of Ashton Eaton in the (English) Times today in the shot circle. It's from ground level with the athlete, having completed his throw, facing the camera. High in the blue sky is the shot on its way.

But what interested me were the shoes he was wearing. I assumed even the multi-event guys would wear slick-soled circle shoes. But Eaton had some chunky Nikes on with grips that you could go rock climbing in :eek:

Granted, Eaton's a glider and the shoe type is much less of a factor than for a spinner.

RayCun · 09-08-2012 8:56am

this one?

Trevor O Connell · 15-08-2012 1:08pm

What would be an average throw for a javelin (800g) and Discus (2kg) with very little training behind an athlete in the specific events.

30m Javelin and 30m discus sound about right

RoyMcC · 15-08-2012 1:24pm

Trevor, if you look at the UK rankings the senior javelin starts at no.600 who is throwing 37m. Discus, 30m would put you 460th.

To be fair, your distances are probably what a first-timer might throw.

http://www.thepowerof10.info/

Bruce7 · 15-08-2012 1:39pm

I think 30m in the discus is quite a decent mark for a beginner to hit in their first season, especially a masters athlete.

Trevor O Connell · 15-08-2012 1:45pm

These are more or less standing throws, yep Rory this is for someone starting for the first time, never threw either before.

Now look I know its not as simple as this but I just want a few figures in my head for my own benefit

Trevor

Trevor O Connell · 15-08-2012 1:54pm

I must admit I thought a 30m javelin throw for a person starting javelin for the first time is not too bad.

I think you are born with a fast arm for Javelin some people have it and some don't

I know guys u16 that can throw a senior javelin well beyond 40m

They just have that fast pull throw from the withdrawl position

Its an interesting event, very technical

In terms of the discus I think its okay if you are using discs u p to 1.5kg

But I think once you go to the 2k disc it gets hard in terms of the spin

Trevor

Bruce7 · 15-08-2012 2:06pm

Trevor O Connell wrote: »

I must admit I thought a 30m javelin throw for a person starting javelin for the first time is not too bad.

Actually I take that back. I know nothing about the javelin, so have no right to comment on it. That was a completely unfounded assumption.

The important thing is to keep it up and keep improving, whatever level you are at.

Trevor O Connell · 15-08-2012 2:13pm

Sure I know very little too Bruce but its always nice to learn how these events work.

I do believe the only way to do that is by actually training for the event yourself.

Even at a basic level.

I think about 45m to 55m is a good distance for a club senior athlete in Ireland.

In masters, well we will know this weekend but I think some guys can throw in to the 50s that's a good throw in my opinion.

Trevor

Bruce7 · 15-08-2012 2:29pm

Yes, it definitely is. Good luck on Saturday. What distance are you hoping for in the shot?

Trevor O Connell · 15-08-2012 2:29pm

Bruce the other thing I tried the other day, the shot put rotational throw..

I just wanted to see what it would feel like.

God its difficult to get the timing

But I think if you can master it, a person with a slight build could actually throw better with the rotation then with the glide

Again only my personal view but I'd consider myself to have a small enough build i.e. I'm not built like a shot putter.

Trevor

Trevor O Connell · 15-08-2012 2:32pm

Well lets put it like this Bruce, if I threw 9m on Saturday I'd be over the moon. I just seem to be going backwards. But I will stick at it

This is my first year in competition in almost 15 years, 1997 was my last time and back then I was a 400m man.

I only took the shot put up In April.

I'm going to try Javelin, Shot and Discus

Now I know lads give out if you throw bad but flip you only live once.

I will be better next year.

:):):)

I hope, and if not back to 400m

Trevor O Connell · 15-08-2012 2:35pm

But the training for the 400m is so bloody hard.

In terms of the shot I want to stick at it until I get the rotation working.

The main reason I'm trying to learn about these events is to pass it on to other young athletes.

I was training the local team for community games this year and I have one lad going in the u10 60m hurdles next weekend.

So aside from myself competing I'd also like to coach at a very basic level down the line

Trevor

Bruce7 · 15-08-2012 2:46pm

You have to get worse before you can get better. Nothing wrong with 9m. Depending on the age group you are in, and who shows up, it could get you a medal. Good luck with it.

I agree on the rotation, but you need to put in a lot of work on your technique. Much more than with the glide. In my opinion it would be easier to learn if you aren't that experienced with the glide. A long time glider has to un-learn the glide as well as learning the spin, in my experience.

Throwers and throws coaching

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