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Tragic yet worrying scenes in waterford last night

12357…13

Comments

  • #202
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    drumswan wrote: »
    Do you think its worth investigating the chaps death?

    Every death has to be investigated. What sort of a question is that


  • #203
    lighterman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭lighterman


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    Self inflicted. No sympathy

    Your very opinionated for a young lad


  • #204
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    Octavianus wrote: »
    It suggests he was worried about being caught, not that he did anything.
    Again, he probably did but the fact that he ran does not prove he was guilty of anything.

    The first reports of this story suggested that the house was targeted because a member of the Gardai lived there but we now know that isn't true


    To me I dont see any difference if they were outside a civilians house, glassed the occupant and ran and one of them died.


  • #205
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    lighterman wrote: »
    Your very opinionated for a young lad

    Why thank you, I hate people who just follow the crowd


  • #206
    Octavianus
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Octavianus


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    To me I dont see any difference if they were outside a civilians house, glassed the occupant and ran and one of them died.

    I think you missed the point


  • #207
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    Every death has to be investigated. What sort of a question is that

    Well its hard to know with you Daily Mail types where you'll draw the line


  • #208
    lighterman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭lighterman


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    To me I dont see any difference if they were outside a civilians house, glassed the occupant and ran and one of them died.

    There is a difference between glassing someone and throwing something which happened to be a bottle


  • #209
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    drumswan wrote: »
    Well its hard to know with you Daily Mail types where you'll draw the line

    Whats a Daily Mail type? It's not one I read


  • #210
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    drumswan wrote: »
    Well its hard to know with you Daily Mail types where you'll draw the line

    What's with the daily mail references? I don't get it.


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  • #211
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    I do, if they have anything worth while to challenge on. So far all I've heard is circle jerking blah blah blah, high horse blah blah

    And the rest you've conveniently filtered out.


  • #212
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    lighterman wrote: »
    There is a difference between glassing someone and throwing something which happened to be a bottle

    Fine let me correct it


    I dont see the difference if they were outside a civilians house, gave them a head injury with a bottle, ran off and one of them died


  • #213
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    old hippy wrote: »
    And the rest you've conveniently filtered out.

    If I had to write in everything that wasn't worthwhile I'd still be typing


  • #214
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    What's with the daily mail references? I don't get it.

    Its a knee jerk, reactionary type who likes to make up their mind based on ridiculous ingrained prejudice instead of waiting for trivial things like "facts" to emerge from a story.


  • #215
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    This is a broader discussion than the death of this man, there was a Garda attacked, in his own home by a gang of criminals.
    If you don't think I should be in the thread, report it, but as long as I'm here I will continue to discuss my feelings, be they anger, joy, or indifference.

    There's much jumping to conclusion in this thread. We don't know he was attacked in his home by anybody,. The racier version of events comes from the Indo, and anyone in AGS (or any of the emergency services for that matter) should have long realised at this stage that the vast majority of what they print is absolute cack. I've read reports on events I've seen with my own eyes and they get it so completely wrong I have to imagine it's done on purpose. In their version it was a deliberate targeting of the house followed by a slashing/stabbing of the victim. Anyone who takes that at face value is welcome to bid on a bridge I have for sale.
    The other version (breakingnews) is that there was glass broken outside the victim's house, followed by an altercation when he confronted the glass-breakers. In that version it was not a deliberate targeting, "just" anti-social behaviour. And yes, that sort of behaviour deserves punishment.
    If the indo version is true I would have little sympathy, but if the less sensational version is closer to the truth then it is indeed a tragic result. Karma would be better employed elsewhere.


  • #216
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    drumswan wrote: »
    Its a knee jerk, reactionary type who likes to make up their mind based on ridiculous ingrained prejudice instead of waiting for trivial things like "facts" to emerge from a story.

    FACTS
    1. A group of young men arrive outside a house in the early hours of the morning
    2. They cause a disturbance and the occupant of the house approaches them
    3. This person receives injuries from a bottle to the back of the head
    4. The group splits and runs. One member ends up dead.


    Can we agree on these?


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  • #217
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    There's much jumping to conclusion in this thread. We don't know he was attacked in his home by anybody,. The racier version of events comes from the Indo, and anyone in AGS (or any of the emergency services for that matter) should have long realised at this stage that the vast majority of what they print is absolute cack. I've read reports on events I've seen with my own eyes and they get it so completely wrong I have to imagine it's done on purpose. In their version it was a deliberate targeting of the house followed by a slashing/stabbing of the victim. Anyone who takes that at face value is welcome to bid on a bridge I have for sale.
    The other version (breakingnews) is that there was glass broken outside the victim's house, followed by an altercation when he confronted the glass-breakers. In that version it was not a deliberate targeting, "just" anti-social behaviour. And yes, that sort of behaviour deserves punishment.
    If the indo version is true I would have little sympathy, but if the less sensational version is closer to the truth then it is indeed a tragic result. Karma would be better employed elsewhere.
    Finally some sense.


  • #218
    Octavianus
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Octavianus


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    FACTS
    1. A group of young men arrive outside a house in the early hours of the morning
    2. They cause a disturbance and the occupant of the house approaches them
    3. This person receives injuries from a bottle to the back of the head
    4. The group splits and runs. One member ends up dead.


    Can we agree on these?

    No, we don't know any of these to be facts.


  • #219
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    drumswan wrote: »
    Its a knee jerk, reactionary type who likes to make up their mind based on ridiculous ingrained prejudice instead of waiting for trivial things like "facts" to emerge from a story.

    I am prejudiced, I admit it, I'm prone to immediately labeling people who throw bottles at peoples houses and heads as scumbags, I should see a therapist to overcome my common sense prejudice.


  • #220
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    What's with the daily mail references? I don't get it.
    It's a simple, childish Ad-hominem attack. Ignore it.


  • #221
    Blindside87
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭Blindside87


    On a slightly related note:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/man-who-threatened-to-rape-and-kill-garda-jailed-for-two-years-1.1798654

    Good stuff.


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  • #222
    lighterman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭lighterman


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    I am prejudiced, I admit it, I'm prone to immediately labeling people who throw bottles at peoples houses and heads as scumbags, I should see a therapist to overcome my common sense prejudice.

    Throw bottles at peoples houses or throw bottles outside peoples houses


  • #223
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    Blindside87 wrote: »
    On a slightly related note:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/man-who-threatened-to-rape-and-kill-garda-jailed-for-two-years-1.1798654

    Good stuff.

    Only two years, he'll be out in 18 months with "good behaviour"

    What a joke. Should be at least 10 years.


  • #224
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    What in my facts can we not take as truth?


  • #225
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    lighterman wrote: »
    Throw bottles at peoples houses or throw bottles outside peoples houses

    Outside peoples houses is at least antisocial, but most likely to be done by scumbags.
    To throw a bottle at somebodies head could easily kill them, and has in fact killed many people, and only a scumbag would do it,


  • #226
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    Octavianus wrote: »
    No, we don't know any of these to be facts.
    Nino Brown wrote: »
    Outside peoples house's is at least antisocial, but most likely to be done by scumbags.
    To throw a bottle at somebodies head could easily kill them, and has in fact killed many people, and only a scumbag would do it,

    Agreed forget the house. Aiming a bottle at someones head is only done to seriously hurt someone.


  • #227
    Octavianus
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Octavianus


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    What in my facts can we not take as truth?

    All of it. As someone else has already pointed out, there are some very different versions of the story.

    Which one are you deciding is fact?


  • #228
    lighterman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭lighterman


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    Outside peoples houses is at least antisocial, but most likely to be done by scumbags.
    To throw a bottle at somebodies head could easily kill them, and has in fact killed many people, and only a scumbag would do it,

    I've no idea what your on about


  • #229
    Phibsboro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭Phibsboro


    Reading the way the actual death is being reported at the moment (late afternoon on the Friday), I am getting a vague feeling that there is more to this than meets the eye. There is a hint that the guard tried to restrain one of the group... and one of the group was then found unconscious at a spot later. The key initial question for GSOC is did the guard give chase at all...


  • #230
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    Outside peoples houses is at least antisocial, but most likely to be done by scumbags.

    So you dont know the facts then? Its 'most likely' to be done by scumbags now. Is there a broken bottle rulebook which says when you cross the line into scumbagness when dicking around with bottles? Perhaps the Daily Mail published one as a pull out supplement?


  • #231
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    old hippy wrote: »
    A young guy died, a life lost that could have been rewarding and productive. Haven't we all done things in our youth that could be considered anti-social?


    I took a packet of Chocolate Goldgrain one day that the Ma had been keeping for the Aunt's visit.


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  • #232
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Phibsboro wrote: »
    Reading the way the actual death is being reported at the moment (late afternoon on the Friday), I am getting a vague feeling that there is more to this than meets the eye. There is a hint that the guard tried to restrain one of the group... and one of the group was then found unconscious at a spot later. The key initial question for GSOC is did the guard give chase at all...


    I heard that he did this while trying to contact Paraic Nally by phone.


  • #233
    TheDoctor
    Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭TheDoctor


    Octavianus wrote: »
    All of it. As someone else has already pointed out, there are some very different versions of the story.

    Which one are you deciding is fact?


    So are we concluding that no group went to the house
    The occupant of the house didnt approach them
    He wasnt hit with a bottle
    The group didnt split and no one died?


  • #234
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Phibsboro wrote: »
    Reading the way the actual death is being reported at the moment (late afternoon on the Friday), I am getting a vague feeling that there is more to this than meets the eye.
    You are not the only one. Well you are almost the only one.


  • #235
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    I took a packet of Chocolate Goldgrain one day that the Ma had been keeping for the Aunt's visit.

    Dude you can't say that, you have to say

    "SWIM took a packet of Chocolate Goldgrain one day that the Ma had been keeping for the Aunt's visit"


  • #236
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Phibsboro wrote: »
    Reading the way the actual death is being reported at the moment (late afternoon on the Friday), I am getting a vague feeling that there is more to this than meets the eye. There is a hint that the guard tried to restrain one of the group... and one of the group was then found unconscious at a spot later. The key initial question for GSOC is did the guard give chase at all...

    And there we have the other end of the jumping to conclusion spectrum...


  • #237
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    So are we concluding that no group went to the house
    The occupant of the house didnt approach them
    He wasnt hit with a bottle
    The group didnt split and no one died?

    The exact same thing happened at my gaf last night, strange that it's not all over the papers.


  • #238
    Octavianus
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Octavianus


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    So are we concluding that no group went to the house
    The occupant of the house didnt approach them
    He wasnt hit with a bottle
    The group didnt split and no one died?


    Are you really just here to argue or to actually talk about the topic?

    You said in a previous post that you had patience, but you are determined to jump to conclusions and refuse to wait until you hear any actual facts.


  • #239
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    drumswan wrote: »
    So you dont know the facts then? Its 'most likely' to be done by scumbags now. Is there a broken bottle rulebook which says when you cross the line into scumbagness when dicking around with bottles? Perhaps the Daily Mail published one as a pull out supplement?

    That was a generalization, if people are throwing bottles at/around house (even just throwing bottles in general) they are most likely scumbags, I don't think that's an unreasonable generalization, but I also don't have any facts to support it. Do you have any facts to the contrary?
    Your daily mail jokes didn't land the first thee times, but I admire your tenacity.


  • #240
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    TheDoctor wrote: »
    Then its good that there's one less scrote out on the street for me to worry about so isn't it?

    Can you please stop calling the dead youth a 'scrote', a 'scumbag'...etc.
    You merely undermine your own arguments by resorting to callous and simplistic labeling in this fashion.
    Isn't it obvious that you can better and more convincingly oppose thuggish behavior without resorting to it yourself linguistically?
    These young men were out of order. No one deserved to die. The world is complex.


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  • #241
    Octavianus
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Octavianus


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    That was a generalization, if people are throwing bottles at/around house (even just throwing bottles in general) they are most likely scumbags, I don't think that's an unreasonable generalization, but I also don't have any facts to support it. Do you have any facts to the contrary?

    So you admit you don't know the facts yet you still have no sympathy for his death based solely on a generalisation?


  • #242
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Undisputed facts.
    Man perceives his wife children and property to be under attack in the dead of night.
    Man confronts chief suspects outside home, suffers a head injury.
    Chief suspects run away, one of them suffers a fall and dies.
    A young man is lying dead on a slab.
    Another man and his family are both physically injured and traumatised.
    Everything else is uncertain at this time.
    If you wake and think that your loved ones and property are under attack, you will defend them and it.
    If you are acting in an aggressive violent manner, or are with others who are acting in an aggresive violent manner, you must accept that you are putting yourself in a certain amount of danger. Thats just a fact.
    Whilst its sad that a young man is dead he and he alone is responsible for his demise.


  • #243
    Octavianus
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Octavianus


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    or are with others who are acting in an aggresive violent manner, you must accept that you are putting yourself in a certain amount of danger. Thats just a fact.
    Whilst its sad that a young man is dead he and he alone is responsible for his demise.

    This doesn't make sense. If he was with someone acting in an aggressive manner then how he could he alone be responsible? The person acting aggressively bears no responsibilty?


  • #244
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Indo are toning it down now. The "home invasion" angle has run it's course.
    Senior sources told the Herald that the incident unfolded at around midnight when a group of up to four youths who had been drinking began throwing bottles into the gardens of houses in the estate.

    One of the homes that they targeted was that of Supt Leacy, who went out to confront the men after contacting his colleagues at the local garda station.

    When he did this, one of the youths threw a bottle at the senior garda, who was hit on the back of the head as he stood outside his family home.


  • #245
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    Octavianus wrote: »
    So you admit you don't know the facts yet you still have no sympathy for his death based solely on a generalisation?

    You keep talking about facts, but we don't have them right now, if you're waiting to see the book of evidence that might take a while.
    Based on what I've heard, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the deceased, if the facts turn out to prove me wrong I may start being sympathetic, but I don't think that's very likely.


  • #246
    Octavianus
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Octavianus


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    You keep talking about facts, but we don't have them right now

    Thank you


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  • #247
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    You keep talking about facts, but we don't have them right now
    Hasnt stopped you making up your mind though, has it?


  • #248
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    We are being bombarded on a daily basis with stories of antisocial behaviour and violence being visited on innocent law abiding citizens by criminals of all ages. This is not an exageration. Everyday there is some new atrocity in this country.
    Decent hardworking people are sick of the lawlessness.
    They are also sick to death of people making excuses for this behaviour.
    Calling criminals, even dead ones, scrotes and scumbags maybe offensive to some, but its not as offensive as being attacked randomly in your own home.
    I hope the posters here upset about the comments about this dead young man are equally upset over the fear and trauma the victim and his family had to endure last night.


  • #249
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    drumswan wrote: »
    Hasnt stopped you making up your mind though, has it?

    I have firmly decided that I don't care


  • #250
    Octavianus
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Octavianus


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    We are being bombarded on a daily basis with stories of antisocial behaviour and violence being visited on innocent law abiding citizens by criminals of all ages. This is not an exageration. Everyday there is some new atrocity in this country.
    Decent hardworking people are sick of the lawlessness.
    They are also sick to death of people making excuses for this behaviour.
    Calling criminals, even dead ones, scrotes and scumbags maybe offensive to some, but its not as offensive as being attacked randomly in your own home.
    I hope the posters here upset about the comments about this dead young man are equally upset over the fear and trauma the victim and his family had to endure last night.

    I haven't seen anybody making excuses for his behaviour, and I'm sure everyone feels sympathy for the family of the man who was injured.

    The problem is that many people are jumping to conclusions without knowing what happened.
    If he threw the bottle or was involved in anything wrong then I don't have much sympathy for him either. But I don't know that and neither do you or anyone else yet.


  • #251
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    I have firmly decided that I don't care

    Sure you dont, either that or youve been shown up to be a reactionary clown


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