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Seen & Found
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31-03-2012 11:55pm#1
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The stone on the right is a confirmed neolithic, cup marked stone, which may have been reused as a grave marker in a later period.
Whoever reused the stone, must have felt that the crude resemblance to a face gave it a certain significance.
The stone on the left is an in situ grave marker - probably medieval.0 -
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1,790 feet above sea level is this curious circle of stones.
The cairn (?) is situated in an early ditch, visible from the air, but not clear on the ground.
It's an intriguing area, stuffed with history and prehistory, but a gruelling two hour climb. Much more to be seen and found!0 -
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Hi Slowburner, just wondering if you think this stone is an odd shape too ? It is quite small, guessing approx. 60cm tall. There are some more stones lying around, which I suspect were once part of a stone wall now deconstructed. This is very near me, but I had the kids in the car and could only shoot it from the fence, poor quality pics, will walk to it when I get a chance and take better pics.
This is not listed on my Waterford Arch. Survey book, as far as I remember.
interesting stone crop by mountainsandheather, on Flickr
interesting stone by mountainsandheather, on Flickr
more context
interesting stone more context bis by mountainsandheather, on Flickr0 -
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I'm only an amateur in these matters, so hopefully someone who is professional, will drop by with a more educated opinion.
I do think it's a curious stone, all the same. It is a big stone for a field wall - perhaps it was there beforehand, and was later incorporated into the field wall.
It is very unlikely that the stone ended up that way naturally.
It's a bit difficult to see any remains of the wall - it looks more like a scattered selection of stones. If it is close to a field boundary, it could be the result of field stone clearance.
Maybe you could take a picture or two of the wider context. This would help to see if the associated stones are part of a wall or something else.
More often than not, stones cleared from a field will have plough marks - these can easily be misinterpreted as I should know
I'm sure it would be worthwhile to have a closer look to see if there is any sign of the hand of man, especially signs of shaping or boring - these might not be immediately obvious, and could need a bit of close scrutiny.
You have an eye for more than the 2 dimensional landscape now, I'll bet
Looking forward to more pictures.0 -
Thanks for that, I'll go back and take more pics allright, and will take plenty of the context. I have been looking at this ever since we moved here, and although there is nothing on the survey book, it's just so distinctive seen from the road (as in the pic) that it has kept me intrigued nevertheless.
Looking at the maps on OSI, yes, it's a wall, or the remnants of. There are some marks, hard to tell, either square or circular, and very very slight, could be anything really, around that spot. If the 6" maps showed a dwelling, it could have been a corner stone I suppose, but there is nothing there. Here is a collage of Bing and OSI aerial views. It could simply have been a big stone damaged while being moved.
stone by mountainsandheather, on Flickr
And yes, I am looking at the landscape a lot, and differently, but have been for quite a while, it's just now I'm attempting to learn a bit about it. I look at every ditch and mound with a suspicious eye, and my ramblings keep Mr Mountains highly entertained (ehhh...not) on our campervan journeys (great for spotting features, the view from the camper
). 0 -
It's a gate post, more than likely.
In the Bing image, you can see the line of a pathway which leads from the gate at the road, and you can see the gateway through the field wall quite clearly in the OSI (2000) image. In the same image, you can also see the darker area of the path from gate to gate.
The OSI 2000 orthophotographic is a great source of information because the survey was carried out in a really dry period. Underground features with a lot of stone, or those that are compacted, tend to hold more water than open soil. So, in a prolonged dry period, these areas show up as being greener than the surrounding areas. The compacted soil and/or stone of the path is very clear in that image.
There seems to be a lot of loose stone in the fields. That could indicate habitation at some time, or it could just be a stony upland field.
You need to identify a really interesting feature, one that you are certain about from your research. Then suggest a picnic in that spot. Gently allow Mr.MS to notice the features, all by himself - you never know, he might get hooked. Alternatively, you drive and let him do the spotting 0 -
Lefanta by mountainsandheather, on Flickr
Not much to see, but such a great spot I had to keep a record for myself, and thought I'd share. Nice layby and informative panel on the spot too.0 -
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Don't mind me, just being over enthusiastic again I'm afraid...
It is just a mesolithic site, where a few bits were recovered, but to me it seems really important because I'm in the middle of reading about these things.
I was reading about the potential for more discoveries down here since this area escaped the ice, and of hope some day mesolithic human bones could finally be found.
I only found out recently about the "Dungarvan valley" caves, where bones of wooly mammoth, wolf, giant Irish deer and bear were found. Some of these caves are still there, and have not been fully excavated, some have been destroyed. Some human bones were found, not mesolithic though.
From what I gather more excavations/investigations were planned, but I doubt they ever took place, and that they will happen in the near future.
The Waterford County Museum site is a brilliant site, full of information and brilliant collections of old photographs too.
http://www.waterfordcountymuseum.org/exhibit/web/Display/article/5/
a bit in p.26 there : http://www.epa.ie/licences/lic_eDMS/090151b280294c64.pdf
lots more interesting in that report too about other time periods.
this too : http://www.waterfordcoco.ie/en/services/conservationandheritage/archaeology/firstirishpeopleindungarvanvalley/
Co Waterford is not exactly hectic as regards neolithic heritage, so it is nice to find excitement in other respects.
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really? where in wicklow is this? It looks like the type of stuff you see all over the place in North wicklow. pretty cool if that's what it is.slowburner wrote: »I'll start the ball rolling with this.
These stones protruding through the dense carpet of pine needles are grave markers - all that is left of a cemetery which fell into disuse in 1130.
'found' the remains of a house (probably not a home) up at the top of powerscourt waterfall the other day.0 -
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Untitled by mountainsandheather, on Flickr
more close ups on my flickr.
Didn't take any more as my memory card was full (sigh), and the inquisitive herd of cows there was staring at me (think "the birds" except they were cows). I'm not very brave when it comes to cows.
So I'll return when they're gone from there.
Beside the stone, there are 2 big boulders, one of them an obvious conglomerate sort of stone, with this big layer of what looks like lime to me (there are loads of lime kilns around). It is solid, and white, like whitewash, but hard. I thought the big splat of this on the boulder and the patterns on it were ... interesting ?
COLAISTE FILM-29 by mountainsandheather, on Flickr
I don't think that boulder is man made, but it could be I suppose if it was part of a wall/gate post.
edit : the boulder close up is seen on this pic in the background, the one to the left.
Untitled by mountainsandheather, on Flickr
edit bis : oh, and I checked, there was never any habitation on this spot.0 -
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I'm a bit puzzled by this. It looks very much like a clay which has been sun baked.Mountainsandh wrote: »
Beside the stone, there are 2 big boulders, one of them an obvious conglomerate sort of stone, with this big layer of what looks like lime to me (there are loads of lime kilns around). It is solid, and white, like whitewash, but hard. I thought the big splat of this on the boulder and the patterns on it were ... interesting ?
I can see that the stone is a conglomerate, but my gut says it's natural. But then the clay like cake seems to form part of the stone - as if it was a mortar which was exposed to the sun before it was dry, and which then cracked.
It could be that the stone was sitting in a clay or marl and at some point it was moved. The clay stuck to it and cracked as it dried out. It is very likely that there is a heavy clay or marl around the boulders - the rushes indicate persistent wet and marl is frequently associated with rushes in this sort of situation.
When you get complex patterns like this, it easy to 'read' things into it. I think all the fissures are natural, but I certainly see how the curved marks stand out.
Here's an example of the way we can superimpose meaning or symbolism. It's actually an appropriate interpretation for this particular field and its residents.;) (Forgive my lack of graphic skills)
Is there any local knowledge about the site?
In the wine trade, they say one look at the label on the bottle, is worth twenty years experience.
Local knowledge has a similar effect 0 -
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It's a cow looking at a massive clover leaf.
The Poitiers carving looks like a medieval mason's mark - something like the carver's signature?
The tooling marks look medieval, I'll guess C.11th/12th?
There was an episode of Time Team on a few weeks back where they were excavating a Viking burial site on the Isle of Man.
On one stone, there was an Ogham inscription. The script couldn't have been any more than 8-9 mm high, and it was incredibly faint. They were little more than scratches.
There were considerable doubts that it was Ogham at all, but it was confirmed and translated by an expert.
How on earth they spotted it, I don't know.
It made me wonder if similar inscriptions were, or are present in this country, and if they are, how many might have slipped under the radar in past excavations.
Somewhere else on this forum, I posted a pic of a Wicklow Ogham stone inscribed with the word 'Votus' or 'Voti' (I think).
For the life of me, I could not see the script, when I was there, or in any of my pics - but they are there and documented.
So it just goes to show, we might superimpose our imaginings on things that aren't really there, and we might completely miss things that really are there.0 -
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Hi, I'd like to get some opinions on the attached pics showing pieces of pottery found in a river. I'm hoping it's late bronze age!
Some photos attached
Thanks
I'm no expert either, but I would hazard a guess at post medieval, maybe C.16th at the very latest, probably more recent.
I'd base this guess partly on the fact that the sherd edges are hardly worn.
If they had been tossed about in the river for 500 odd years, they'd be as rounded as beach pebbles.
If they were bronze age, they would be very unlikely to survive in a river at all. 2,500 years of abrasion by a river would leave only dust.
They are almost certainly handmade; if that tells us anything.
The rings have been scored while the vessels were on a potter's wheel, rather than the earlier technique of impressing cord in the wet clay.
The fragments might date from different periods too - could you tell us a bit about the circumstances of their discovery?
Below is a (fairly) similar sherd from the later bronze age for comparison.
One important thing to note is that the gloss on the sherd below is a patina from handling and cleaning, it's not a glaze. The glaze on your sherds looks more like a salt glaze which was popular from the C.17th.
I hope someone with a bit of expertise in this area helps out, because they are interesting looking sherds.
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slowburner wrote: »I'm no expert either, but I would hazard a guess at post medieval, maybe C.16th at the very latest, probably more recent.
I'd base this guess partly on the fact that the sherd edges are hardly worn.
If they had been tossed about in the river for 500 odd years, they'd be as rounded as beach pebbles.
If they were bronze age, they would be very unlikely to survive in a river at all. 2,500 years of abrasion by a river would leave only dust.
They are almost certainly handmade; if that tells us anything.
The rings have been scored while the vessels were on a potter's wheel, rather than the earlier technique of impressing cord in the wet clay.
The fragments might date from different periods too - could you tell us a bit about the circumstances of their discovery?
Below is a (fairly) similar sherd from the later bronze age for comparison.
One important thing to note is that the gloss on the sherd below is a patina from handling and cleaning, it's not a glaze. The glaze on your sherds looks more like a salt glaze which was popular from the C.17th.
I hope someone with a bit of expertise in this area helps out, because they are interesting looking sherds.
Thanks for the replies. No expert here, mho only.
They sherds were all collected from the river nore.
There is a natural gravel break in the river and this seems to catch alot of pottery sherds after heavy flood.
When the river levels drop I often pick up pieces and have a good collection
The picture you post is interesting as I have spent hours searching pottery identification sites etc to try and find something similar to that 'ribbed' design! It is quite similar to my pieces, source?
My theory is that these pieces are buried in silt/mud over thousands (?) of years and sit as disposed rubbish buried beneath the river Nore only to be dislodged by a combination of recent flood works in Kilkenny and subsequent heavy flooding causing the sherds to drift downstream.
I know there was a strong medieval pottery industry in Kilkenny near what is now the MacDonagh Junction shopping centre. I believe the river probably holds a vast amount of debris from multiple periods.
I have four sherds with that same design. The spacing between the grooves is almost identical. Some of are quite thick approx 17mm implying quite a large vessel? Also the reason the sherds aren't heavily 'rolled' or water worn is explained possibly by the fact they were only recently dislodged?
Thanks again to you both for the replies.0 -
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Richban, I thought the same at first, but it has to be said that some of the landscaping he did was probably to close off holes/skylights that could have been dangerous to kids and cattle. Farmers here farm actively, it's more important to them than a cave that nobody is coming to look at anyway, and it's mentioned in one of the reports that some stalagtites or some such were destroyed by kids, so I'm sure with possibly a few kids hanging around the land, the farmer was just after safety. Imagine if you were left on your own with a cave on your land, and dangerous spots, and nobody from govt ever coming to even look at it, you might end up doing the same.
It's a long time since, and I wonder if anyone has kept an eye on all these caves, and if anyone is planning more investigations.
It is said that some could have chambers that have not been found/opened... Paleolithic Deise fellow waiting to be discovered ? 0 -
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