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The Billy Meier UFO case Switzerland

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    #152
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    tonybodhran wrote: »
    Paradox's don't exist in nature only in star trek.

    Precisely why the possibility of backwards time travel is highly, highly unlikely.
    it's essentially another dimension which is not possible to interact with bar observation

    Being brought back in time & talking to 'Jesus' sounds like interacting to me, it isn't merely observation? Surely if you can talk to someone, there's nothing stopping you from killing them & changing events??


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    #153
    tonybodhran
    Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭tonybodhran


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Precisely why the possibility of backwards time travel is highly, highly unlikely.



    Being brought back in time & talking to 'Jesus' sounds like interacting to me, it isn't merely observation? Surely if you can talk to someone, there's nothing stopping you from killing them & changing events??
    It's just as unlikely as faster than light travel.Which if anyone believes anything about ufo's is what is required to get here from just about anywhere else. And if you are quoting me finish the sentence please.:) Interaction is possible with technical intervention. It wasn't Jesus, it was Jmmanuel , here is an explanation of how it works from the FIGU forum.

    It is not possible to change the past but it is possible to be part of
    history. For Jmmanuel , there existed no reality other than the reality
    that Billy visited him along with Asket and Jitschi. There was not an
    other reality that was changed by Billy by travelling to year 32 and
    meeting Jmmanuel.
    This event was:
    Reality for Jmmanuel after Billy had visited him.
    Reality, "as unknown history" during the time between
    Jmmanuel's demise and Billy's birth; and his subsequent travel
    to the year 32.
    Reality "as known history”, between Billy's travel to the year 32
    and now.
    Reality, “as unchangeable history”, between now and time
    immortal.
    Because Jmmanuel met Billy and Asket and Jitschi, Billy fulfilled the
    history by travelling to the past and because Billy travelled to the
    past to meet Jmmanuel, he was part of the history. It is a bit
    confusing, but once you think deeply, it will make sense.

    It's definitely not wibbly wobbly timey wimey.
    How could you possibly kill yourself in the past, the person trying to kill themselves would not exist to try and kill themselves...if you are not dead right now no one has killed you in the past.


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    #154
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    tonybodhran wrote: »
    It's just as unlikely as faster than light travel.Which if anyone believes anything about ufo's is what is required to get here from just about anywhere else. And if you are quoting me finish the sentence please.:) Interaction is possible with technical intervention. It wasn't Jesus, it was Jmmanuel , here is an explanation of how it works from the FIGU forum.

    It is not possible to change the past but it is possible to be part of
    history. For Jmmanuel , there existed no reality other than the reality
    that Billy visited him along with Asket and Jitschi. There was not an
    other reality that was changed by Billy by travelling to year 32 and
    meeting Jmmanuel.
    This event was:
    Reality for Jmmanuel after Billy had visited him.
    Reality, "as unknown history" during the time between
    Jmmanuel's demise and Billy's birth; and his subsequent travel
    to the year 32.
    Reality "as known history”, between Billy's travel to the year 32
    and now.
    Reality, “as unchangeable history”, between now and time
    immortal.
    Because Jmmanuel met Billy and Asket and Jitschi, Billy fulfilled the
    history by travelling to the past and because Billy travelled to the
    past to meet Jmmanuel, he was part of the history. It is a bit
    confusing, but once you think deeply, it will make sense.

    It's definitely not wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

    I'm sorry, but that all reads as gibberish to me, & doesn't explain how you can interact with the past but somehow not alter it :confused:
    How could you possibly kill yourself in the past, the person trying to kill themselves would not exist to try and kill themselves...if you are not dead right now no one has killed you in the past.

    Again, precisely why backwards time travel isn't a very likely possibility. If your asking to me to put more faith in Meier over Einstein's model...Meier has a long, long, long way to go before that happens.

    Again I'm open to learning about this, & maybe its just me, but that quote for the forum means nothing to me - can it be put into clearer terms?


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    #155
    squonk
    Registered Users Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭squonk


    From discussions yesterday it was made clear that the Plejorans could not interact with just everybody, only Meier and it was also mentioned that when somebody snuck up on Meier and an alien to watch without being noticed, that the alien freaked and banged their head on a table because our vibrations are different to theirs. I'm still not entirely clear how this makes a difference but, thinking on it, it raises a bigger question.

    it's been mentioned that the reason for the problems nowadays with religion here is that we treat it differently to every other ET species and that our development was messed up by some Plejorans who showed up here at some point I have some questions.

    1. When did that happen
    2. How did that happen
    3. Why did it happen
    4. How could it happen?

    With question 4, I'm amazed it happened because surely those plejorans would have a hard time dealing with our different vibrations the way the current guys do.


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    #156
    tonybodhran
    Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭tonybodhran


    EnterNow wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but that all reads as gibberish to me, & doesn't explain how you can interact with the past but somehow not alter it :confused:



    Again, precisely why backwards time travel isn't a very likely possibility. If your asking to me to put more faith in Meier over Einstein's model...Meier has a long, long, long way to go before that happens.

    Again I'm open to learning about this, & maybe its just me, but that quote for the forum means nothing to me - can it be put into clearer terms?

    Basically..
    A= Past B=Present C=Future
    A + C cannot be altered by travelling there from B
    Travelling from B to A means you become part of A
    Travelling From B to C means you become part of C

    I'll try and find more on this, most of what has been written on all of these subjects is in German only.


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    #157
    tonybodhran
    Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭tonybodhran


    squonk wrote: »
    From discussions yesterday it was made clear that the Plejorans could not interact with just everybody, only Meier and it was also mentioned that when somebody snuck up on Meier and an alien to watch without being noticed, that the alien freaked and banged their head on a table because our vibrations are different to theirs. I'm still not entirely clear how this makes a difference but, thinking on it, it raises a bigger question.

    it's been mentioned that the reason for the problems nowadays with religion here is that we treat it differently to every other ET species and that our development was messed up by some Plejorans who showed up here at some point I have some questions.

    1. When did that happen
    2. How did that happen
    3. Why did it happen
    4. How could it happen?

    With question 4, I'm amazed it happened because surely those plejorans would have a hard time dealing with our different vibrations the way the current guys do.

    1. Intermittently between 387,000 BCE and 2000BCE with various levels of interference and interaction.
    2. Just because you are advanced doesn't mean you can't be an asshole.
    3. See 2.
    4. Good questions, actually this was discussed at length on the FIGU forum, it will take me a while to dig the answer up. I don't want to give you an answer that's incorrect so I'll find the text and post it up. Might take me a while.


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    #158
    Mahigitam
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Mahigitam


    EnterNow wrote: »
    tonybodhran wrote: »
    According to them you can't alter the past, if you could the universe would cease to exist also if you think about it the Plejaran trying to stop the other Plejaran would cease to exist since they are their descendants. Paradox's don't exist in nature only in star trek.

    Again, precisely why backwards time travel isn't a very likely possibility. If your asking to me to put more faith in Meier over Einstein's model...Meier has a long, long, long way to go before that happens.

    There is no scientific principle or law that precludes time-travel(TT) & so TT is not a paradox. But what is paradox are the consequences that are derived from our present understanding of how it works. Even Einstein's model doesnot preclude TT into the past.

    "There's nothing in Einstein's theory, which is the best theory that we have about the nature of time, which precludes it. There's nothing in even his general theory of relativity, published in 1915, which precludes travel back into the past, but many scientists are deeply uneasy about it because of all the well-known paradoxes that it unleashes."
    http://news.discovery.com/space/is-time-travel-possible.html


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    #159
    Mahigitam
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Mahigitam


    squonk wrote: »
    This seems like a contradiction. Was Billy one of the original 3-5 people? Also, if they were able to find 3-5 people at tme X when the mission was contemplated but the candidates had died since, surely there had to be at least 2 available at time X+Y (when the mission took place) when Billy was picked? It doesn't really answer the question of why all their eggs are put in one basket.

    You really need to go back and read the several points along with a link i posted on the requirements for having a contact with ET & 'Why only Billy Meier?'.
    squonk wrote: »
    How do we know then that's true or not? We have a single point of reference (Billy) and have to take his word for it. I can say that the guy who invented Velcro did so on the instructions of ETs. Unless the gentleman or lady concerned comes forward to confirm or deny what I say, I'm neither right nor wrong because what I say is unproven. Moments of inspiration I can take or leave. Are they telepathically transmitted ideas or naturally occuring in the brain? Who knows! That's open to interpretation and is necessearilly vauge however the assertion that there are others in limited contact with the ETs can be easily proven.

    Plejaren & allies send telepathically transmitted ideas to certain earth people. Fortunately there is some kind of evidence for this. Meier during his spacetrip into sister universe-DAL in July 1975, photographed the Universal-Barrier(an artificial tunnel that allows the travel between Universes). Strikingly resembling a space exploration art done by an USA artist 1-2 years later.
    http://www25.brinkster.com/chancede/barrier.html

    Unverifiable questions can only get unverifiable answers. We can only speculate & check for any logical contradictions or internal inconsistencies in such type of theoritical information. For validating the case, it is of no use to us. We need to ask evidential questions that are documented & can be demonstrated to others.


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    #160
    tonybodhran
    Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭tonybodhran


    As for why the earlier descendants of the Plejaran were able to interact with the indigenous population I understand that it's because of a combination of the time involved and the thinking patterns of the people involved. The earlier ancestors of the Plejaran were not as advanced as the current generation and were more warlike and power hungry also the earlier ancestors of earth humans were not mired in religious belief and so followed more closely the natural creational laws albiet at a basic level so the two races initially were not that dissimilar in terms of spiritual development .Technical evolution does not necessarily go hand in hand with spiritual evloution ( just look at the advances we have made in a short space of time)

    As far as I understand it those ancestors genetically interfered with the evolving earth humans and basically set themselves up as gods, the idea of which has persisted throughout our history. They came and went over time and subsequent interactions became less overt as some covert as they and others evolved and moved on ultimately leaving us with the mess we find ourselves in today which the current descendants of the original "assholes" are working in the only way that their directives now allow. A long time has passed between the first interactions and the current ones so their methods and moral codes have changed dramatically. I hope that explains it a little, it's hard to find something specific in 20,000 pages of information. There is far more information in German but I don't speak German yet.


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    #161
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    tonybodhran wrote: »
    As for why the earlier descendants of the Plejaran were able to interact with the indigenous population I understand that it's because of a combination of the time involved and the thinking patterns of the people involved. The earlier ancestors of the Plejaran were not as advanced as the current generation and were more warlike and power hungry also the earlier ancestors of earth humans were not mired in religious belief and so followed more closely the natural creational laws albiet at a basic level so the two races initially were not that dissimilar in terms of spiritual development .Technical evolution does not necessarily go hand in hand with spiritual evloution ( just look at the advances we have made in a short space of time)

    Why was it Jesus [the Plejaran] was able to interact with humans without being killed by their energy/vibes? Surely being only two thousand years ago, both are essentially no different on the evolutionary ladder than they are today...

    Also re time travel, there is nothing in Einsteins model that precludes it maybe [backwards tt], but I don't see why the Plejaran's didn't prevent the original interference by the earlier Plejarans by going back to before when it happened, using the technology needed to interact, & prevent the whole mess from ever happening


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    #162
    tonybodhran
    Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭tonybodhran


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Why was it Jesus [the Plejaran] was able to interact with humans without being killed by their energy/vibes? Surely being only two thousand years ago, both are essentially no different on the evolutionary ladder than they are today...

    Also re time travel, there is nothing in Einsteins model that precludes it maybe [backwards tt], but I don't see why the Plejaran's didn't prevent the original interference by the earlier Plejarans by going back to before when it happened, using the technology needed to interact, & prevent the whole mess from ever happening

    ?If you mean Jmmanuel , he was human not Plejaran his spirit form may have originated elsewhere in the past but once you reincarnate on a planet you are born as a being of that planet, and I already explained twice why you can't change history. By going to he past if you do anything else other than observe you become part of history, Jmmanuel met Billy in the past for a conversation, he did that in the past, but that had to be fulfilled by Billy going there from the present to do so.
    Altering the past is a paradox which by it's definition is something that defies logic, it's a good definition. The universe works on cause and effect and is extremely logical. It is not possible for something to happen that would cause the universe to cease to exist which is what would happen if you could alter the past.
    How exactly would the Plejaran descendants stop the Plejaran ancestors without themselves ceasing to exist and thus preventing themselves from going back to stop them in the first place?
    And to add to Maghitam's statement about logical contradictions, there are none in over 40 years of contact notes from Meier, that in itself says something about the content of the writings.People really have no idea of the sheer amount of information given to Meier over the last four decades.


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    #163
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    tonybodhran wrote: »
    ?If you mean Jmmanuel , he was human not Plejaran his spirit form may have originated elsewhere in the past but once you reincarnate on a planet you are born as a being of that planet,

    So Jmmanuel was a human form, but had the reincarnated spirit of a Plejaran?
    and I already explained twice why you can't change history. By going to he past if you do anything else other than observe you become part of history

    You may have felt you explained it, but I'm not understandingit yet. By what mechanism do you become part of history?
    Jmmanuel met Billy in the past for a conversation, he did that in the past, but that had to be fulfilled by Billy going there from the present to do so.

    So he travelled back int time? I get that, but I've yet to understand the 'become part of history part'
    Altering the past is a paradox which by it's definition is something that defies logic, it's a good definition.

    I agree, & paradoxes cannot exist in nature. Causality is protected by the likelyhood of backwards time travel being impossible, rather than an invisible rule that prevents you from interfering in the past. How are you prevented from interfering exactly? If Meier was talking with Jmmanuel, would it be impossible from Meier to strangle Jmmanuel if he so wanted to do so? What prevents the interference exactly??
    The universe works on cause and effect and is extremely logical. It is not possible for something to happen that would cause the universe to cease to exist which is what would happen if you could alter the past.

    Not necessarily, there's solid work going on to prove the existence of alternate realities. What if you changed the past, & all that happened was at that point a new timeline is created & plays out based on the changes, leaving the original in tact?
    How exactly would the Plejaran descendants stop the Plejaran ancestors without themselves ceasing to exist and thus preventing themselves from going back to stop them in the first place?

    They don't have to kill them, just prevent the interference.
    And to add to Maghitam's statement about logical contradictions, there are none in over 40 years of contact notes from Meier, that in itself says something about the content of the writings.People really have no idea of the sheer amount of information given to Meier over the last four decades.

    I will agree that his story is vast, seems to have an answer for every question, & lends itself well to current understanding of physics & technology. If it is a fake, its well thought out & quite encompassing...if its real, it's a serious amount of information & quite incredible


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    #164
    tonybodhran
    Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭tonybodhran


    EnterNow wrote: »
    So Jmmanuel was a human form, but had the reincarnated spirit of a Plejaran?
    Not Plejaran, much older, and that in itself is a very long story.

    EnterNow wrote: »
    You may have felt you explained it, but I'm not understandingit yet. By what mechanism do you become part of history?

    So he travelled back int time? I get that, but I've yet to understand the 'become part of history part'
    I hate temporal mechanics...

    EnterNow wrote: »
    I agree, & paradoxes cannot exist in nature. Causality is protected by the likelyhood of backwards time travel being impossible, rather than an invisible rule that prevents you from interfering in the past. How are you prevented from interfering exactly? If Meier was talking with Jmmanuel, would it be impossible from Meier to strangle Jmmanuel if he so wanted to do so? What prevents the interference exactly??
    I'll quote from the FIGU forum , there's hundreds of pages of discussion on time travel alone..

    If something can cause a paradox later on, then it is prevented before it occurs because of the laws of cause and effect. In other words, if you want to do something now that will set into motion a possible paradox later, even if it is via time travel, then that thing can't be completed because if it were, the "now" wouldn't exist. Even if the future and the present do not exist simultaneously, they DO still affect each other by cause and effect

    Time travel demands huge amounts of energy to be performed.If the energy flow ceases, you are forced back into your original time.There is some kind of creational force that tries to keep you tied to your present time.If you want to overcome it you have to spend huge amounts of energy.

    It's like creation wants each spirit to stay in his original time in order to avoid conflicts/illogical situations.It is absolutely impossible to stay your whole life in the past or in the future because creational laws do not allow this.

    I also read that there are a few variations of time travel, there is one where you can interact with humans of that time (because you have lowered your vibrational levels to match those of the target time) and the second variation is time travel without any kind of interaction, which is the common one, you cant be seen and noticed because your vibrations and your "time config" do not match those of the target time.Its like you wear a protecting bubble with you that avoids interaction.

    That is a creational measure to avoid two identical spirits with different vibrational levels (Immanuel and Billy)to interact with each other.But this can be overcomed for a short period of time.

    Creation is 100% logic and it cannot allow two "identical" spirits to share the same time, doesn't matter if one is alive and the other one in the beyond (dead).Creation would fix,resolve, correct this illogicality,paradox blocking or hindering the time travelers death.How this process occurs has not even been understood by the plejaren yet.

    It's a very complex subject and also according to the information you would have to be so far spiritually advanced in the first place to actually time travel that the thought of interfering in time would be ridiculous.
    EnterNow wrote: »
    Not necessarily, there's solid work going on to prove the existence of alternate realities. What if you changed the past, & all that happened was at that point a new timeline is created & plays out based on the changes, leaving the original in tact?
    According to the information there are no alternate timelines , there are however myriad alternate dimensions and universes with their own independent timelines. The Plejaran themselves have only access to two universes so far, ours (Dern) and a sister universe called the Dal universe.
    Don't ask me about dimensional travel...my head is sore enough already from thinking about time travel.

    EnterNow wrote: »
    They don't have to kill them, just prevent the interference.
    Altering what their descendants did would change their history and they wouldn't have gone back to change their history in the first place so it can't happen..
    EnterNow wrote: »
    I will agree that his story is vast, seems to have an answer for every question, & lends itself well to current understanding of physics & technology. If it is a fake, its well thought out & quite encompassing...if its real, it's a serious amount of information & quite incredible
    Yes it's fascinating, he's either a philosopher/scientific/mathematical genius with a photographic memory as well as a one armed master model maker and expert photographer capable of hoaxing over a thousand photographs while being under constant surveillance for most of his life or he's telling the truth. Either one is almost as unbelievable as the other.

    And yet people think it's not possible that someone tampered with five of his photographs because they didn't like what he was saying....I don't get that.

    Back in the 1970's when this was happening you could just walk into his house and sit at the table chatting with Meier and look at the photographs in a shoe box he had in his office, hundreds were stolen during the first years.
    I've spoken to other people who were there over 20 years ago who saw other pictures and films that were never released to the public and never will be, he doesn't care about being believed as he knows how it will all turn out in the end and he's happy that he's done his job and written everything down.


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    #165
    BESman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 563 ✭✭✭BESman


    So how much money has Meier made off this whole thing?


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    #166
    tonybodhran
    Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭tonybodhran


    BESman wrote: »
    So how much money has Meier made off this whole thing?

    Meier has never made anything from the contacts, all sales of books relating to writings given to Meier by the Plejaran go directly to FIGU which is a jointly owned collective of core group members. FIGU own the center where Billy lives along with some of the core group members who work there full time. Other members stay there occasionally when visiting to work or for meetings. It's actually a quite small house by Swiss standards with a meditation building nearby but it is set in beautiful surroundings which are maintained by FIGU and also visitors who come to help out. All other core group members also have full time jobs of their own and families to support etc.
    You can chose to financially support FIGU by becoming a passive member. You Donate 7% of one months salary yearly and attend a meeting once a year at the center.so if you make 2000 a month you pay 140 euro once a year. It's a lot less than a Gym membership and more worthwhile in my opinion.

    All money from sales or membership goes towards the publishing of books and translations and upkeep of the center. The latest book to be translated was the Kelch Der Warheit and it took 4 years to do properly as it's a big book and translating from German to English with the accuracy required is extremely difficult. (There are many words in German with no English counterparts) This had to be done professionally and paid for by FIGU, it's very expensive and time consuming to do.
    All records of finances are given to members every year at a meeting so everyone can see exactly what all monies have been spent on.

    The only money Meier makes personally is from books he has written by himself without help from the Plejaran, he has written a number of books on his own about a number of subjects.
    Should he not get paid for work he has done himself like the rest of us?

    Besides being published in books that you can purchase the writings given to Meier are usually released to the public free of charge as they are officially translated. The Kelch Der Warheit was released on PDF as soon as it was translated. There are tons of translated contact notes freely available on various websites.
    They are not in it for the money but they have to survive financially like everyone else and Switzerland is a very expensive country to live in.
    I suppose people think that FIGU should pay for everything out of their own pockets and give away everything for free. When is the last time you printed up a couple of thousand books for free?


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