Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

BTH · 27-04-2011 12:41pm

A lot of people recommending a good solid base before attempting to aim for the marathon. But what is recommended? I get the impression you should have 18-24 months of consistent running. I wouldn't have this. Maybe 18 months running, but consistent? Not a chance. Started Tri's last year and ran a total of roughly 450km in 12 months. Now in the last 7 months building for this year (half iron distance) I'm already at 900km. Last year I would also have been playing football at the start of the year, and for 10years+ before that. But only since October am I running 2/3 times a week on a consistent basis.

So would this be considered a good enough base? The years of soccer have left me more suited to shorter stuff (18:25 for 5k), but the last 7 months I've been working on longer runs. Just wondering what the more knowlegable distance runners here would think based on my position. Is my dozen or so years in sport enough of a base considering I wouldn't have the running specific base?

RayCun · 27-04-2011 1:00pm

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Just wondering what the more knowlegable distance runners here would think based on my position. Is my dozen or so years in sport enough of a base considering I wouldn't have the running specific base?

A lot of people coming from another sport overestimate how fit they are - there is a big difference between someone who plays five a side once or twice a week and someone else who trains 3 times a week for a full match on the weekend, but both will describe themselves as 'fairly fit from the football' :rolleyes:. And on top of that there is a big difference between the demands of a football game, and of a 2 hour run, so people are sometimes surprised by how hard they find running, even if they are genuinely fit. So that's why there's an emphasis in having a solid base in running, specifically, before you start marathon training.

It sounds to me like you have a good base. What kind of miles do you do in a week? When you say you're working on longer runs, how far has your longest run so far been?

tHE vAGGABOND · 27-04-2011 1:55pm

I know already now that Im going to miss 4 or 5 weekends in the middle of my marathon training, for a number of weddings in July and August.

So even though we are a full 6 months away Im doing a bit more now that I really need to - as the folks say, it will stand to me having that strong base to work from. The theory being that I can then afford to have the odd 20 mile week and it wont be a disaster [where missing 6 weekends/long runs in a 14/16 week plan, when coming into it with next too no base would be very bad].

You dont plan to fail, you fail to plan - as I was constantly told in school :cool:

BTH · 27-04-2011 1:57pm

RayCun wrote: »

A lot of people coming from another sport overestimate how fit they are - there is a big difference between someone who plays five a side once or twice a week and someone else who trains 3 times a week for a full match on the weekend, but both will describe themselves as 'fairly fit from the football' :rolleyes:. And on top of that there is a big difference between the demands of a football game, and of a 2 hour run, so people are sometimes surprised by how hard they find running, even if they are genuinely fit. So that's why there's an emphasis in having a solid base in running, specifically, before you start marathon training.

It sounds to me like you have a good base. What kind of miles do you do in a week? When you say you're working on longer runs, how far has your longest run so far been?

I would have had times when I would have trained 2/3 times a week for weekend matches and times when "training" during the week would have consisted solely of 5-a-side games, depending on the how long ago your talking!!

Weekly, covering 25-28 miles or so. Longest run has been 13.5mile, but I just did a quick check and I have about a dozen runs 10mile+ this year, . Doing them at about 7:40 per mile so 1:42 is the longest (i'm converting everything here as I work off metric). A good bit off 2 hours, but it's a good bit off 31st October too. Just remember that I'm swimming and cycling on top of this. Still in my twenties (just) and I weight the same as a packet of malteasers so I believe should capable of building on where I am right now. Was really just wondering what others would consider an adequate base.

Woddle · 27-04-2011 1:59pm

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

I would have had times when I would have trained 2/3 times a week for weekend matches and times when "training" during the week would have consisted solely of 5-a-side games, depending on the how long ago your talking!!

Weekly, covering 25-28 miles or so. Longest run has been 13.5mile, but I just did a quick check and I have about a dozen runs 10mile+ this year, . Doing them at about 7:40 per mile so 1:42 is the longest (i'm converting everything here as I work off metric). A good bit off 2 hours, but it's a good bit off 31st October too. Just remember that I'm swimming and cycling on top of this. Still in my twenties (just) and I weight the same as a packet of malteasers so I believe should capable of building on where I am right now. Was really just wondering what others would consider an adequate base.

Thats a great base, more of the same for the next few weeks.

Mr Slow · 27-04-2011 2:03pm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I know already now that Im going to miss 4 or 5 weekends in the middle of my marathon training, for a number of weddings in July and August.

In this country J, you're only supposed to be married to one person at any one time. Not judging, it's just the way it is.

RayCun · 27-04-2011 2:38pm

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Weekly, covering 25-28 miles or so. Longest run has been 13.5mile, but I just did a quick check and I have about a dozen runs 10mile+ this year, . Doing them at about 7:40 per mile so 1:42 is the longest (i'm converting everything here as I work off metric). A good bit off 2 hours, but it's a good bit off 31st October too.

That's loads, you're well set up so.
I can see I'll need a post explaining what a Long Slow Run is though

RayCun · 27-04-2011 2:41pm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I know already now that Im going to miss 4 or 5 weekends in the middle of my marathon training, for a number of weddings in July and August.

You could also look at doing some of your long runs midweek? Normally I'd say its not worth the hassle - you're throwing off your schedule in the week before and the week after, and you're running at a different time of the day - but if you have 2/3 weekends in a row when you won't be able to run, it might be the best option.

menoscemo · 27-04-2011 2:45pm

RayCun wrote: »

That's loads, you're well set up so.
I can see I'll need a post explaining what a Long Slow Run is though

Not really. He has a 18.25 5k. Mcmillan gives an LSR pace of 7:22-8:22 for this, so well within range.

RayCun · 27-04-2011 2:51pm

menoscemo wrote: »

Not really. He has a 18.25 5k. Mcmillan gives an LSR pace of 7:22-8:22 for this, so well within range.

I'm planning to insitute a new "no novices are allowed finish before the mentor" rule, so he'll have to fecking slow down

Mr Slow · 27-04-2011 2:52pm

RayCun wrote: »

I'm planning to insitute a new "no novices are allowed finish before the mentor" rule, so he'll have to fecking slow down

He'll be waiting around for a while then :P

RayCun · 27-04-2011 2:55pm

mrslow wrote: »

He'll be waiting around for a while then :P

why, are you planning on taking over as mentor? :P

Perkina3 · 27-04-2011 2:56pm

Yeah jesus christ. Mate you have a serious base of fitness there and to have completed a dozen plus 10+ mile runs since xmas is excellent going. You certainly hve a good base....

Aye I second Ray cuns motion of no finishing before the mentors! hahaha

Mr Slow · 27-04-2011 3:04pm

RayCun wrote: »

why, are you planning on taking over as mentor? :P

I can see those words being eaten in Dublin this year young man!:P

Mr Slow · 27-04-2011 3:05pm

Perkina3 wrote: »

Aye I second Ray cuns motion of no finishing before the mentors! hahaha

There's only one mentor.

rainbow kirby · 27-04-2011 3:09pm

RayCun wrote: »

I'm planning to insitute a new "no novices are allowed finish before the mentor" rule, so he'll have to fecking slow down

Good thing that rule wasn't in place last year :pac:

RayCun · 27-04-2011 3:12pm

mrslow wrote: »

I can see those words being eaten in Dublin this year young man!:P

I'll take you - you and your magic pills!:D

Perkina3 · 27-04-2011 3:14pm

mrslow wrote: »

There's only one mentor.

Aye....Let me rephrase so (Finishing ahead of non novices)

....Happy?

BTH · 27-04-2011 3:17pm

menoscemo wrote: »

Not really. He has a 18.25 5k. Mcmillan gives an LSR pace of 7:22-8:22 for this, so well within range.

McMillan also says I should be doing sub 3 hour marathon. The guy clearly hasn't got a clue.

menoscemo · 27-04-2011 3:36pm

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

McMillan also says I should be doing sub 3 hour marathon. The guy clearly hasn't got a clue.

Fair enough, in that case LSR pace should be about 30-90 seconds slower than Goal marathon pace.

However, given your base and times you might change your mind on the sub 3 thing...

Mr Slow · 27-04-2011 8:43pm

RayCun wrote: »

I'll take you - you and your magic pills!:D

Time will tell.;)

Mr Slow · 27-04-2011 8:43pm

Perkina3 wrote: »

Happy?

No.

butlerjustine · 28-04-2011 9:34am

Hi,

I don't use boards very often but I was really happy to see that there is marathon mentoring.
I started running 4 years ago and 3 years of that training was 4-6 miles 3 times a week. I have done four 10K races, pb was 57 which isn't very impressive I know.

I did the Bupa 10K a few weeks ago and my training for that was only about 12 miles a week as I was also doing boot camp 3 times a week.
I was hoping to use the Hal novice training plan before I saw this thread and use boot camp as my cross training.
Things that will affect my training are a 3 week holiday in July and business trips every now and again for 2 days a week so I can use these as my rest days if I can’t run abroad.

I would love to do a marathon and this year is good as my friend is doing it also so we will train together. I would be more motivated and active longer but my downfall is putting pressure on myself and getting stressed during runs that I’m not doing good enough which affects my times but I’m working on this.:o

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

RayCun · 28-04-2011 9:48am

Welcome aboard!
A sub-60 10k is faster than a lot of the novices who were on these threads in the last couple of years, it's nothing to be ashamed of. (I ran that 10k in 54 minutes last year, so about the same)

Having someone to train with is a great help - you can keep each other motivated, and make sure you don't miss any runs. (If you're in Dublin there are also group runs in Phoenix park most weekends in the summer, there'll probably be a bunch of people from this thread doing them)

For your first marathon you shouldn't stress too much about times. A lot of the challenge is in just completing the distance, and so a lot of the emphasis in training is in just getting out there and racking up the miles. (you can get competitive next time

)

Boot camp could be good cross-training. If you're going to miss two weeks in July you should be thinking of starting your training two weeks early (or even three weeks if you want some extra wiggle room), so around the middle of June. In the meantime you could look at the first week of the training plan (3 x 3 mile runs on consecutive days and a 6 mile slow run on the weekend) and start preparing for it by running on consecutive days (if you don't already) and running a little further on the weekend.

Mr Slow · 28-04-2011 10:35am

butlerjustine wrote: »

my downfall is putting pressure on myself and getting stressed during runs that I’m not doing good enough

As you move through training you'll improve your endurance and aerobic base, you'll naturally run shorter distances quicker. I ran a 10k last June in 54:07 and in training a few months ago ran 45:40. Hitting each target 16,18,20 miles will also give you great confidence and when you cross the finish line, you'll be bursting with confidence!

butlerjustine · 28-04-2011 2:31pm

Thanks for the help RayCun and Mrslow I really appreciate it.

I really enjoy running and being active so don't want the time pressure to hold me back, like you say the distance is the hardest thing.

Looking forward to following the thread.

Mr Slow · 28-04-2011 2:37pm

butlerjustine wrote: »

Thanks for the help RayCun and Mrslow I really appreciate it.

I really enjoy running and being active so don't want the time pressure to hold me back, like you say the distance is the hardest thing.

Looking forward to following the thread.

If you're based around Dublin, there'll be group runs in the Phoenix Park in the Summer (announced here), running with a group helps the miles fly by and you'll get great advice and encouragement along the way.

butlerjustine · 28-04-2011 4:59pm

Cool thanks again.

ger664 · 28-04-2011 11:43pm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I know already now that Im going to miss 4 or 5 weekends in the middle of my marathon training, for a number of weddings in July and August.

So even though we are a full 6 months away Im doing a bit more now that I really need to - as the folks say, it will stand to me having that strong base to work from. The theory being that I can then afford to have the odd 20 mile week and it wont be a disaster [where missing 6 weekends/long runs in a 14/16 week plan, when coming into it with next too no base would be very bad].

You dont plan to fail, you fail to plan - as I was constantly told in school :cool:

Its not written in stone that LSR has to be done on a the weekend. Okay its when most people have the time. Adjust the plan by a few days and do your LSR on Mon/Tues in the morning or evening or whatever ever day suits best for the whole training plan.
It will only effect the taper at the end by it been a few days shorter or longer depending on whether you start a week earlier or not.

Bally8 · 01-05-2011 1:14pm

Ok so...deep breaths...I think I might maybe possibly join in on this with a view to maybe possibly kind of somehow running Dublin too! EEKKK there I said it. Oh crap, my husband is going to kill me!

Some info on me. I was part of the original Amadeus Allstars:D mentored group and ran (plodded) Dublin in 2009. I LOVED being part of that group and dont think I would have made it to the start or finish without it. However my training was affected by ITB and achilles and a calf injury so in the end I finished in 4:53:36. I was thrilled to complete it but a bit embarrassed by the time.

I have been hit with injury after injury since but now feel Im back on track even though I feel scared every time I think I might be ok. Im still very much a plodder- my 10k PB is 60:54 from March 2011 but have cut out all walking breaks since January of this year. I am aiming to run a race a month this year and have achieved this so far. Im running 16.5 miles of the Cork relay in June and then hopefully the Portlaoise half marathon in August. IF and only IF im still injury free by the end of that race I will pay my registration fee and book hotel for DCM.

I have the usual complications in my life- a husband and daughter, a job with a long commute, friends and family who take up a nice bit of my time and a very unhealthy relationship with my bed and couch:D but I still manage to get out running 3-4 times a week at the moment and even though other things in my life will suffer (I think everyone felt a bit neglected the last time I trained for the marathon) I feel I am ready to try get a new marathon PB this year. I felt so left out and jealous last year:(

Best of luck to everyone

Mr Slow · 01-05-2011 1:31pm

Good luck with your training Bally8, hopefully we'll get the kind of comradery this year that we've had in the past.

tHE vAGGABOND · 01-05-2011 2:13pm

Its not written in stone that LSR has to be done on a the weekend. Okay its when most people have the time. Adjust the plan by a few days and do your LSR on Mon/Tues in the morning or evening or whatever ever day suits best for the whole training plan.

Good man Ger, thanks..

Its one of those facepalm "ohhh yeeeeaaaa" things, and why you need advice from experienced folks.

My current job [where current is very much in the conditional tense! :eek:] is 15k odd from where I live, I could stretch that to a LSR very easily by adding in a few twists and turns, running home from work one evening during the week [on weeks I cant do weekends], and just reorganise a training schedule around it.

BTH · 01-05-2011 5:42pm

Quick question for those more experienced with the longer runs. At what point do you start to carry water on your runs? Did 14 miles this morning and beginning to think I should have some fluids with me. Especially in that weather. And how to carry it? I find carrying a bottle while running awkward and I feel it upsets my rhythm. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that you shouldnt need liquids up to 90 mins if you generally keep well hydrated but 14 miles is certainly beyond that.

Mr Slow · 01-05-2011 6:10pm

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Quick question for those more experienced with the longer runs. At what point do you start to carry water on your runs? Did 14 miles this morning and beginning to think I should have some fluids with me. Especially in that weather. And how to carry it? I find carrying a bottle while running awkward and I feel it upsets my rhythm. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that you shouldnt need liquids up to 90 mins if you generally keep well hydrated but 14 miles is certainly beyond that.

After an hour you'll start to dehydrate so you should be drinking before that! I have a belt with two bottles that has served me well.

tHE vAGGABOND · 01-05-2011 6:41pm

I have a big gigantic nike belt, that holds a proper water bottle and a couple of pockets for gels, but was looking at the belts with a couple of water bottles [that folks like Mr Slow have] and was wondering if the two small bottles hold more or less than the normal size "big" bottle?

RayCun · 01-05-2011 6:44pm

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Quick question for those more experienced with the longer runs. At what point do you start to carry water on your runs? Did 14 miles this morning and beginning to think I should have some fluids with me. Especially in that weather. And how to carry it? I find carrying a bottle while running awkward and I feel it upsets my rhythm. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that you shouldnt need liquids up to 90 mins if you generally keep well hydrated but 14 miles is certainly beyond that.

Some options for taking water on your runs

carry water in bottles or a camelback (don't like this myself, find it uncomfortable)
run in loops passing your house/parked car (the downside is you might find yourself tempted to stop each time)
go out ahead of time and stash bottles on your route (but these may go missing)
bring some money with you and stop off in a shop for water (my preference, but not always possible)

I would tend to agree that you don't need water if you're running under 90 minutes and are well-hydrated in advance.... but that's only a rule of thumb, some people will want water earlier. And on a hot day you'll get thirsty faster.

Bottom line -even if you're usually okay without water for 90 minutes, once you start getting up to about 80 minute runs you should have a fallback plan for water. Maybe you'll take a wrong turn, or it'll be a hot day, or you were drinking a couple of days ago and you'll find yourself feeling parched faster than normal... whatever the reason, you're much better off having water available that you don't use in the end, than to be gasping for water with another 30 minutes left to run.

Mr Slow · 01-05-2011 6:45pm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I have a big gigantic nike belt, that holds a proper water bottle and a couple of pockets for gels, but was looking at the belts with a couple of water bottles [that folks like Mr Slow have] and was wondering if the two small bottles hold more or less than the normal size "big" bottle?

Generally the same, 16oz in total, it's just less cumbersome to have them balanced across your back. would love a belt that could carry a litre:).

rainbow kirby · 01-05-2011 6:51pm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I have a big gigantic nike belt, that holds a proper water bottle and a couple of pockets for gels, but was looking at the belts with a couple of water bottles [that folks like Mr Slow have] and was wondering if the two small bottles hold more or less than the normal size "big" bottle?

Depends which belt you get. I have a belt which takes 4 small bottles, which have a capacity of about 200ml each. I hate wearing it because bottle belts just really weren't designed for the female frame - mine tends to ride up all the time which is really annoying.

Mr Slow · 01-05-2011 6:55pm

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Depends which belt you get. I have a belt which takes 4 small bottles, which have a capacity of about 200ml each. I hate wearing it because bottle belts just really weren't designed for the female frame - mine tends to ride up all the time which is really annoying.

Put on some weight around the middle, that'll hold it down :pac:

rainbow kirby · 01-05-2011 6:57pm

mrslow wrote: »

Put on some weight around the middle, that'll hold it down :pac:

I'm trying to lose some weight, not put it on! :pac:

Mr Slow · 01-05-2011 6:58pm

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I'm trying to lose some weight, not put it on! :pac:

Redistribute then :P

Perkina3 · 01-05-2011 8:41pm

Yeah I must have a look into that bottle belt. I did have another belt but bloody hate it!!!

Yeah and I am the same.... hate carrying bottles!!!

So is ppls training coming along??? obv. base training

neilc · 01-05-2011 10:03pm

RayCun wrote: »

Some options for taking water on your runs
carry water in bottles or a camelback (don't like this myself, find it uncomfortable)

run in loops passing your house/parked car (the downside is you might find yourself tempted to stop each time)

go out ahead of time and stash bottles on your route (but these may go missing)

bring some money with you and stop off in a shop for water (my preference, but not always possible)

I would tend to agree that you don't need water if you're running under 90 minutes and are well-hydrated in advance.... but that's only a rule of thumb, some people will want water earlier. And on a hot day you'll get thirsty faster.

Bottom line -even if you're usually okay without water for 90 minutes, once you start getting up to about 80 minute runs you should have a fallback plan for water. Maybe you'll take a wrong turn, or it'll be a hot day, or you were drinking a couple of days ago and you'll find yourself feeling parched faster than normal... whatever the reason, you're much better off having water available that you don't use in the end, than to be gasping for water with another 30 minutes left to run.

Hi Ray, I know you're not gone on them but I invested in one of these camelbak's a few weeks ago. Capacity is 1.5 litres so not to bulky and light enough. Used it on a 10 miler on Saturday, filled with water and ice, what water was left was still very cool at the end of the run. BTW 10 miles and above is when I start carrying water, don't bother for less than that.
Neil

Mr Slow · 02-05-2011 10:37am

neilc wrote: »

10 miles and above is when I start carrying water, don't bother for less than that.
Neil

Horses for courses, I'll take a few sips in the first mile and again before 5. It's a comfort thing for me but I've never been without on a run.

Concerned2 · 02-05-2011 11:34am

neilc wrote: »

Hi Ray, I know you're not gone on them but I invested in one of these camelbak's a few weeks ago. Capacity is 1.5 litres so not to bulky and light enough. Used it on a 10 miler on Saturday, filled with water and ice, what water was left was still very cool at the end of the run. BTW 10 miles and above is when I start carrying water, don't bother for less than that.
Neil

Hi Neil, I'm curious as to how comfortable that camelbak is on the run. I've got a hydration belt which is very uncomfortable so I was thinking of buying 1 of the camelbak's. I would have though the camelbak's without a strap around the waste would bounce around as you are running , how do you find the 1 you've linked above ?

neilc · 02-05-2011 11:54am

Concerned2 wrote: »

Hi Neil, I'm curious as to how comfortable that camelbak is on the run. I've got a hydration belt which is very uncomfortable so I was thinking of buying 1 of the camelbak's. I would have though the camelbak's without a strap around the waste would bounce around as you are running , how do you find the 1 you've linked above ?

Hi Concerned2,
I find it works great for me. When it's full at the start of the run you'd know it was there but not in an uncomfortable way, as the volume goes down I actually forget I'm carrying it at all. With the straps tightened to your body size there's no bounce at all. Not sure I'd get on as well with one of the bigger ones, the 1.5 litre seems to strike a happy balance for me. Hope this helps.
Neil

Mr Slow · 02-05-2011 12:00pm

neilc wrote: »

Hi Concerned2,
I find it works great for me. When it's full at the start of the run you'd know it was there but not in an uncomfortable way, as the volume goes down I actually forget I'm carrying it at all. With the straps tightened to your body size there's no bounce at all. Not sure I'd get on as well with one of the bigger ones, the 1.5 litre seems to strike a happy balance for me. Hope this helps.
Neil

Do the straps pin your shirt against you, chafing would be a concern on the longer runs.

ger664 · 02-05-2011 12:43pm

mrslow wrote: »

Horses for courses, I'll take a few sips in the first mile and again before 5. It's a comfort thing for me but I've never been without on a run.

+1 Imagine peoples comments if the first water station in DCM was at Mile 10 :eek:

neilc · 02-05-2011 3:52pm

mrslow wrote: »

Do the straps pin your shirt against you, chafing would be a concern on the longer runs.

It hasn't been an issue for me so far mrslow, I wear it fairly snug so there's no movement to speak of to cause chafing. Saying that 10 miles is the longest I've run since I got it so time will tell.

ger664 wrote: »

+1 Imagine peoples comments if the first water station in DCM was at Mile 10

On runs longer than 10 miles I never wait till the 10 mile mark to have my first sip thought that goes without saying, obviously fluid intake would be spaced out over the course of the run. I was only saying that for me 10 miles or less I don't feel the need to bring water with me. Thought this was meant to be about sharing experiences.
Neil

ger664 · 02-05-2011 4:54pm

neilc wrote: »

On runs longer than 10 miles I never wait till the 10 mile mark to have my first sip thought that goes without saying, obviously fluid intake would be spaced out over the course of the run. I was only saying that for me 10 miles or less I don't feel the need to bring water with me. Thought this was meant to be about sharing experiences.
Neil

Neil was only leg pulling u. I just feel that staying hydrated during training improves the quality of your training, the only time I would not bring water with me is on a 3-4 mile recovery run other then that I always carry a bottle.

I know some people find it hard to carry a bottle in their hand as they run, but as this is how you will get your water in Dublin, it is a skill well worth mastering.

Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

Comments