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Improvement to rail routes (EDIT: using existing network)

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    #62
    Wote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭Wote


    Neewbie_noob wrote: »
    Reopen the tunnel underneath the Phoenix Park so Connolly can finally be relinked to Heuston and the West.

    Great idea. In fact some of the InterCity services could be terminated at Pearse using the tunnel and the Arrow trains from Kildare could run on to Bray.


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    #63
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    corktina wrote: »
    well, im afraid again Im not clairvoyant. I cant provide you with statistics until the line is built. I bet Paddy Power would offer you odds on it though...

    You want a Train because other people have a train. Do you not see that a Bus Service would be infinitely cheaper and just as useful? It would run on Infrastructure that everyone could use and share the cost of too, making infiinite journeys possible starting and finishing off the route (which rail cant do) and benefit freight movements too.

    I never said that I wanted a train because other people have a train. Don't ascribe a trainspotter reason where it doesn't exist.

    I support a future expansion of the rail network back into Donegal because we suffer in comparison with the other counties on the western seaboard in terms of both tourism and access that are rail connected. It takes considerably longer to get to Donegal and is far less accessible than Kerry, Galway or Mayo even though the mileages from Dublin are similar. Any project linking North Donegal with Derry would in any case have support from the Northern and British Governments so in the case it ever did happen the impact on you in the south would be minimised.

    You are dealing with far bigger communities than the WRC but which are concentrated on the few significant towns of Bundoran, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Stranolar/Ballybofey and Letterkenny.

    Since 1965 we are living the "dream" of having no rail connection and being effectively dependent on buses for connections with the rest of the country. It is not working and other communities in Ireland should beware the loss of their own rail connections. Four and five hour journeys to Dublin are no joke.


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    #64
    Lapin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,184 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    dowlingm wrote: »
    - it's generally parity of esteem and GAA jerseys all the way.




    GAA Jerseys - What are you on about ?


    As for those suggesting extending the Sligo or Derry line to Letterkenny.

    I think there are a lot more important items on Donegal's wish list than than trains. You don't need them. No point in wasting taxpayers money on building railways to sparcely populated areas whrn it can be spent on improving existing lines to places like, well, Galway for example.

    As for rail improvements. I suggest upgrading all lines in the country to double track at a minimum.


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    #65
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    Neewbie_noob wrote: »
    Reopen the tunnel underneath the Phoenix Park so Connolly can finally be relinked to Heuston and the West. Why was this closed anyway ? Is it still used for freight?


    Irish Rail didn't want it used for passenger trains because it cited capacity issues at Connolly. Up to 1980 there was a poorly-advertised train running from Heuston to Connolly and the old Dun Laoghaire Pier station, apparently with no alighting allowed at Connolly. At that point the link to the Pier was severed by the DART works and no timetabled passenger trains ran again on the line.


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    #66
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    corktina wrote: »
    i think the answer is , they can't be radically improved without massive investment and we don't have any money. Some effort is being made to upgrade the Cork line, but will it bear fruit quickly enough to reverse the decline in rail passenger numbers?
    That's where private ownership would come in. And I don't mean waiting for the government to invest in the infrastructure and just running the trains privately.

    The Cork line is running too many Dublin-Cork trains versus demand. People want faster trains versus a greater volume of them, when it comes to intercity. How many commuters have a pressing need for an hourly Dublin-Cork rail service, never mind intercity travellers dealing with a service that runs at average speeds that were even too slow over 50 years ago?
    The Idyll Race wrote: »
    Neewbie_Noob wrote: »
    Reopen the tunnel underneath the Phoenix Park so Connolly can finally be relinked to Heuston and the West. Why was this closed anyway? Is it still used for freight?
    Irish Rail didn't want it used for passenger trains because it cited capacity issues at Connolly. Up to 1980 there was a poorly-advertised train running from Heuston to Connolly and the old Dun Laoghaire Pier station, apparently with no alighting allowed at Connolly. At that point the link to the Pier was severed by the DART works and no timetabled passenger trains ran again on the line
    IE deliberately reduced capacity at Connolly, both in terms of number of platforms and in terms of signalling. The old canard can no longer stand, especially since these issues could be resolved for not very much money if IE wanted to do it.

    The Loop Line continues to be jammed full of Maynooth Line and Northern Line trains bound for Pearse as well, trains that ought to be terminating at Connolly if anything (I'd prefer the Maynooth Line trains to terminate at Broadstone myself if you want real relief at Connolly, which would be a far shorter run into Dublin than going via Phibsborough, Drumcondra and North Strand, as well as being just as close to the city centre as Connolly, but the GSR mentality still stands at CIE/IE after 87 long years). It's also suspect that a direct link between the Docklands and the Phoenix Park line was not built, if IE were really concerned about capacity issues.


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    #67
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    Do you not see that a Bus Service would be infinitely cheaper
    just because its cheeper doesn't make it a better option, just because its more expensive doesn't make it the better option either.
    corktina wrote: »
    and just as useful?
    so is a car, infact costs a side, a car would be more useful as you can stop when you feel like it (a place to stop permitting of course) apparently its a 6 hour journey from dublin to donegall? rather do that by train then some peasant wagon.
    corktina wrote: »
    It would run on Infrastructure that everyone could use and share the cost of too
    true, but competition could happen on the railways if IE were forced to allow it (just because their are european laws doesn't mean IE can't try do whatever to stop it) doesn't mean that their will be operators queueing up either
    corktina wrote: »
    making infiinite journeys possible starting and finishing off the route which rail cant do
    rail can't do it unless you build a branch to every little town and village which isn't going to happen, however infinite journeys starting and finishing can be possible off the route via feeder busses connecting to the railway which should be happening in every town in the country.

    roads are something we should be doing anyway, not as a choice over the railway which seems to be happening. we can have both, theirs a market but the railway has to get a fair chance, yes IE are to blame for not doing enough but so is the government for not making IE invest what their given in the right areas as well as the governments conflict of interest. reasonable fairs for a fast comfortable service might attract people back from the busses or attract people to the railways.
    people go on about how were a small country, well for such a small country it takes forever to get anywhere, you could probably fly to the UK or europe quicker then it would take from dublin to donegall for example.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #68
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    I reckon if Maynooth-Mullingar was double tracked, Navan-Drogheda cleared for passenger with auto LCs and a platform somehow contrived at Drogheda or Clonsilla-M3 extended to Navan, any of those options would bring in more additional passengers to rail in a month than a Letterkenny-Derry or Sligo-Bundoran line in a year.

    (oh and in my opinion how Midleton-Youghal was scored was bull****. Not advocating it be built but I think it was judged harshly since it's a bullet straight run with an alignment needing re-excavation, auto LCs and maybe a grade sep, but creating a location where trains could be stored for morning services and being a much bigger threat to the bus competition)


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    #69
    purplepanda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    Any new regional railway lines, if the investment is ever available again, need to be built along new, more direct faster routes, not over some old victorian winding alignment. Slow rail services are no longer competitive enough against bus transport.

    Obviously the main problem for IE is reducing journey times on it's services. They seem to have spent the last 10 years plus overhauling track & lines without any serious gains in speed.


    I wonder how does IE & indeed Translink match up for journey times against other rail systems in Europe comparing journey speeds & size of rail network.

    Denmark or even Sweden for example :rolleyes:


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    #70
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,794 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    purplepanda wrote: »
    Any new regional railway lines, if the investment is ever available again, need to be built along new, more direct faster routes, not over some old victorian winding alignment. Slow rail services are no longer competitive enough against bus transport.

    The WRC between Galway and Limerick has shown this - meandering rail services along old routes between (by European standards) provincial towns are not going to be a success. AFAIK The existing Derry-Belfast line is not doing well - how can anyone think a slow branch service to LY tacked onto the end would be a success?

    There may be a case in the future, due to demographics or global energy issues, for building new (direct alignment) rail-links along the west coast and elsewhere, but we're talking decades not years before this is realistic.


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    #71
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Wote wrote: »
    Can you stop the back seat modding and keep the thread on topic please. What improvements to the rail network would you propose?

    I've made a number of positive proposals. Here they are in summary:

    Double any existing single mainlines.
    Build a line from Derry to Letterkenny with a view to extending it to Sligo and the WRC.
    Build a line to Dublin Airport.
    Re-open the Rosslare - Waterford line and approach services in a new and innovative way

    Your proposals?

    "that the rail routes (although I very rarely use them) could be drastically improved. "

    that what the OP said.... the topic is about improving railroutes not building new one, especially not such discredited ideas as the northern section of thew WRC. The Southern end which connects two Cities is a dismal failure, how can you imagine that a Derry?Letterkenny/Sligo/and all points WRC would do any better!

    My proposals.? Build on the strengths Rail has...fast (ie 125mph max speed) Intercity and commuter (mostly Dublin with perhaps some scope around Cork). Prune the branch lines, put in dedicated connectiing bus services to strategic points, forget freight. Put in dynamic loops on selected single lines , to improve capcity and reduce journey times.


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    #72
    Neewbie_noob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Neewbie_noob


    corktina wrote: »
    that what the OP said.... the topic is about improving railroutes not building new one

    I'm talking about improving the service of IE in general, I never actually specified whether or not it was to existing services of the installation of new routes, so all ideas / contributions are welcome.


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    #73
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I can't believe people are actually talking of building new branch lines at the cost of hundreds of millions to places like Donegal when the existing branch lines are under threat of closure and even the primary lines to Cork, Galway, etc. are under serious threat.

    The reality is rail in Ireland is under serious threat, the primary focus now needs to be on cutting costs, keeping fares down and making most of the infrastructure we already have (speed increases).


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    #74
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    loyatemu wrote: »
    The WRC between Galway and Limerick has shown this - meandering rail services along old routes between (by European standards) provincial towns are not going to be a success. AFAIK The existing Derry-Belfast line is not doing well - how can anyone think a slow branch service to LY tacked onto the end would be a success?

    There may be a case in the future, due to demographics or global energy issues, for building new (direct alignment) rail-links along the west coast and elsewhere, but we're talking decades not years before this is realistic.
    Enough with the WRC canard, WADR. All stopping trains, a restricted top speed that could be higher (even with the curves), and the same company instituting "competing" express bus service on the parallel motorway which cost nine times per unit length that of the rehabilitation of the railway, and all for political ends. A private operator bringing tilting trains onto the existing railway and skipping all stops between Limerick and Galway would be able to directly compete (in earnest) with the express bus, even with the reverse move at Athenry, and would be able to charge competitive fares instead of doing fare-fixing as CIE does between IE and BE. There was no excuse for holding down the railway operating standards to pre-1950s era, especially with the new build including concrete sleepers and welded rail. Limerick's population is still around 91,000 and Galway's population is still around 76,000, so it's not like the potential market is going to change; the service merely has to, and there's no reason it cannot.


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    #75
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    CIE wrote: »
    Enough with the WRC canard, WADR. All stopping trains, a restricted top speed that could be higher (even with the curves), and the same company instituting "competing" express bus service on the parallel motorway which cost nine times per unit length that of the rehabilitation of the railway, and all for political ends. A private operator bringing tilting trains onto the existing railway and skipping all stops between Limerick and Galway would be able to directly compete (in earnest) with the express bus, even with the reverse move at Athenry, and would be able to charge competitive fares instead of doing fare-fixing as CIE does between IE and BE. There was no excuse for holding down the railway operating standards to pre-1950s era, especially with the new build including concrete sleepers and welded rail. Limerick's population is still around 91,000 and Galway's population is still around 76,000, so it's not like the potential market is going to change; the service merely has to, and there's no reason it cannot.

    Bloody hell, heresy on C&T! Good man.


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    #76
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    bk wrote: »
    I can't believe people are actually talking of building new branch lines at the cost of hundreds of millions to places like Donegal when the existing branch lines are under threat of closure and even the primary lines to Cork, Galway, etc. are under serious threat.

    The reality is rail in Ireland is under serious threat, the primary focus now needs to be on cutting costs, keeping fares down and making most of the infrastructure we already have (speed increases).


    Yes, its called the internet. Blue sky thinking for free. We are not the decision makers. Why do you want to muzzle everyone else who does not think in line with you?


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    #77
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The Idyll Race wrote: »
    Yes, its called the internet. Blue sky thinking for free. We are not the decision makers. Why do you want to muzzle everyone else who does not think in line with you?

    Because it is thinking like this that lead to disasters like the WRC.


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    #78
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    CIE wrote: »
    A private operator bringing tilting trains onto the existing railway
    A private operator is going to bring tilting trains to the WRC. Uh huh. Because those are just lying around waiting to be regauged to 1600mm. And which private operators are waiting in the wings to operate on a single track branch line? I actually think it's more likely we'll see Letterkenny-Derry to be honest.


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    #79
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    bk wrote: »
    Because it is thinking like this that lead to disasters like the WRC.


    Is it? Are you or me public representatives? Are we writers of opinion pieces in the National press? We aren't. We are just dudes and girls on the internet. Do you really think that we have that level of influence? I'm not grandstanding to anyone. Are you?


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    #80
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    dowlingm wrote: »
    A private operator is going to bring tilting trains to the WRC. Uh huh. Because those are just lying around waiting to be regauged to 1600mm. And which private operators are waiting in the wings to operate on a single track branch line? I actually think it's more likely we'll see Letterkenny-Derry to be honest.
    You'd be surprised, so long as regulatory barriers are removed.


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    #81
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    CIE wrote: »
    Enough with the WRC canard, WADR. All stopping trains, a restricted top speed that could be higher (even with the curves), and the same company instituting "competing" express bus service on the parallel motorway which cost nine times per unit length that of the rehabilitation of the railway, and all for political ends.

    Citylink also operate on this route. So even if BE agreed not to run a competing service, it would still be a failure as everyone would continue to take the much faster and cheaper CityLink service. BE are competing with CityLink.

    Also I think it is nuts that people think that BE shouldn't run a faster, cheaper service that costs the taxpayer nothing, because it is competing with a much slower, more expensive train service. Lunacy!!!

    The parallel motorway might have cost 9 times as much, but remember is carries far more then 9 times the passengers and freight of the rail.


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    #82
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    bk wrote: »
    Citylink also operate on this route. So even if BE agreed not to run a competing service, it would still be a failure as everyone would continue to take the much faster and cheaper CityLink service. BE are competing with CityLink.

    Also I think it is nuts that people think that BE shouldn't run a faster, cheaper service that costs the taxpayer nothing, because it is competing with a much slower, more expensive train service. Lunacy!!!

    The parallel motorway might have cost 9 times as much, but remember is carries far more then 9 times the passengers and freight of the rail.

    As usual you have it arse about tit, how much money were CIE forced by government to pay for the WRC, then to prove a point they run a competing bus service that for the first time BE gives a quick time between the two cities? Forgive me for being a wee bit cynical about the CIE monolith, that passively aggressively fecks its own investment. Only in Ireland do we have a rail service created that is deliberately built to be slower than its sister company competitor. It wouldn't happen under Translink and I would be willing to wager it wouldn't happen anywhere else.


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    #83
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    bk wrote: »
    Citylink also operate on this route. So even if BE agreed not to run a competing service, it would still be a failure as everyone would continue to take the much faster and cheaper CityLink service. BE are competing with CityLink.

    Also I think it is nuts that people think that BE shouldn't run a faster, cheaper service that costs the taxpayer nothing, because it is competing with a much slower, more expensive train service. Lunacy!!!

    The parallel motorway might have cost 9 times as much, but remember is carries far more then 9 times the passengers and freight of the rail.
    How does BE "cost the taxpayer nothing"? All of their capital purchases are done out of appropriations, are they not? and their advertising? Is not the infrastructure they run on also subvented by those that they share the roads with, and to a greater degree than BE does? IINM, IE has to account for its own infrastructure by itself, that nobody can share costs with in terms of commercial operation.

    I don't think it's fair that BE compete with CityLink, frankly. The odds favour the house, as they say in gambling.

    And I am at least glad to see that nobody has tried to deny that the only reason why the train service is slower is because it has been deliberately set up that way by the government, rather than such being an inherent weakness of rail service even along traditional alignments. The railway is capable of carrying just as much as that motorway, when used properly, for far less land use cost.


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    #84
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    CIE wrote: »
    How does BE "cost the taxpayer nothing"? All of their capital purchases are done out of appropriations, are they not? and their advertising? Is not the infrastructure they run on also subvented by those that they share the roads with, and to a greater degree than BE does? IINM, IE has to account for its own infrastructure by itself, that nobody can share costs with in terms of commercial operation.

    I don't think it's fair that BE compete with CityLink, frankly. The odds favour the house, as they say in gambling.

    And I am at least glad to see that nobody has tried to deny that the only reason why the train service is slower is because it has been deliberately set up that way by the government, rather than such being an inherent weakness of rail service even along traditional alignments. The railway is capable of carrying just as much as that motorway, when used properly, for far less land use cost.

    The bit I've bolded is the crucial point. To take one example, the 1km stretch of road of the Dundrum bypass cost approximately €1m in build costs and €13m in compo to landowners.

    New road builds are gold to the lucky landowners. They have hit the jackpot, and the line of the road can be fixed whatever way the public representatives want.

    Railways, on the other hand, in the rare instance that they are rebuilt, are not so fortunate for those who are to be rewarded. They were built usually in the nineteenth century and CIE really don't want to divert them at all, because of our old friend Compo.

    Therefore money can be made out of roads. Very little if any can be made out of railways. Where the Harcourt Street line was diverted on the construction of the Brides Glen line it was along DLR CC roads for the most part.


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    #85
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    bk wrote: »
    Because it is thinking like this that lead to disasters like the WRC.
    And gombeen ministers are easily fooled into doing gombeen things. Latest folly is 30 meg broadband to every house in the country no matter how remote! I've paid for my 30 meg broadband and now I'll have to pay for someone else's!


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    #86
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    n97 mini wrote: »
    And gombeen ministers are easily fooled into doing gombeen things. Latest folly is 30 meg broadband to every house in the country no matter how remote! I've paid for my 30 meg broadband and now I'll have to pay for someone else's!

    And we are grotesquely overcharged for it. I will buy five boards.ies pints at the next boards beers if any journalist for the Times, the Indo or de Paper compares broadband prices in Belcoo and Blacklion.

    Ride 'em Cowboys! seems to be the watchword here.


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    #87
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The problem is a railway will never replace a road. You always need a road, to carry all the private cars, coaches and freight. Remember 75% of people and 99% of all freight in Ireland is carried by road.

    Railway comes second. You only build a new railway if the existing roads are too congested or you have a long distance between two large (1 million +) cities.

    This might piss off rail fans, it might seem "unfair", but it is reality, deal with it.


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    #88
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    bk wrote: »
    The problem is a railway will never replace a road. You always need a road, to carry all the private cars, coaches and freight. Remember 75% of people and 99% of all freight in Ireland is carried by road.

    Railway comes second. You only build a new railway if the existing roads are too congested or you have a long distance between two large (1 million +) cities.

    This might piss off rail fans, it might seem "unfair", but it is reality, deal with it.

    It certainly doesn't piss me off, in fact it amuses me that you are taking this so seriously, because the "reality" is that you or I won't ever make a strategic decision on anything in this country. Deal with it.


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    #89
    Wote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭Wote


    bk wrote: »
    I can't believe people are actually talking of building new branch lines at the cost of hundreds of millions to places like Donegal when the existing branch lines are under threat of closure and even the primary lines to Cork, Galway, etc. are under serious threat.

    The reality is rail in Ireland is under serious threat, the primary focus now needs to be on cutting costs, keeping fares down and making most of the infrastructure we already have (speed increases).

    The existing branch lines such as the Ballybrophy-Limerick service are under threat simply because CIE/IE have under invested in those lines, offered the travelling public bad timetables and hid these services away like old mad aunts in the attic for many years.

    Ballybrophy-Limerick could be used as the main line from Limerick to Dublin - it's actually a shorter journey mileage wise. However IE treat it like a branch line when it isn't a branch line.

    The Waterford-Rosslare service died a death because there were only two trains a day on it and a 90 minute wait in Waterford to go on to Limerick. IE timetabled that service badly too so deliberately in my opinion engineered a situation where there was no demand for the service.

    The WRC is facing the same issue and CIE is busy competing with itself by running a faster bus service between Galway and Limerick.

    I firmly believe that the whole CIE organisation is no longer fit for purpose and should be dissolved. Translink should be reconsituted as an All Ireland transport authority, with a remit to run an integrated transport system with trains providing the bulk of long distance services where possible and serving a dense network of feeder bus services.

    Serious investment needs to go to the existing infrastructure first and I would advocate the doubling of any InterCity track. The Galway/Westport/Ballina lines should be run via Moate/Mullingar and into Connolly again to speed up Galway-Dublin times with the Tullamore/Athlone section running an intensive branch line service to ensure those towns maintain their train service. CIE bizarrely relocated Athlone station from the old MGWR station to the site of the GSWR station which means that the old MGWR Athlone station would need to be re-opened in order to allow the Dublin trains to go down the old MGWR road to Connolly.

    I am certainly not ashamed to advocate new rail connections and make no apology for that. Donegal deserves a faster public transport link to the capital and it also deserves a fast link to Derry. It may well be in any case that Stormont would pay for a lot of the infrastructure costs as it will benefit the Derry economy as well as the Donegal one.

    The primary focus should be on thinking of an integrated transport system, not self-consuming competing services from the same company. Frankly that's stupid.


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    #90
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Wote even if you didn't have BE competing with rail, you would still have the private coach companies crucifying rail with their much cheaper prices, higher speeds and zero cost to the taxpayer.


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    #91
    Wote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭Wote


    bk wrote: »
    Wote even if you didn't have BE competing with rail, you would still have the private coach companies crucifying rail with their much cheaper prices, higher speeds and zero cost to the taxpayer.

    So why not give up on a transport policy. Shut the railways down and close BE. Leave it to the "market".


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