Improvement to rail routes (EDIT: using existing network)

Neewbie_noob · 01-09-2012 11:30pm #1

Sorry mods if such a thread exists already, but I was reading a thread about suggested improvements to bus routes, and it got me thinking that the rail routes (although I very rarely use them) could be drastically improved.
What change(s) would you make if any??

Feel free to lock, mods, if there is already a thread / or if this is inappropriate.

Cookie_Monster · 02-09-2012 5:27am

can... worms... everywhere....

CIE · 02-09-2012 6:39am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

can... worms... everywhere....

Either that or just trollin'. The handle seems to indicate it.

corktina · 02-09-2012 9:16am

i think the answer is , they can't be radically improved without massive investment and we don't have any money. Some effort is being made to upgrade the Cork line,but will it bear fruit quickly enough to reverse the decline in rail passenger numbers?

Neewbie_noob · 02-09-2012 12:12pm

CIE wrote: »

The handle seems to indicate it.

I genuinely amn't trolling .. what do you mean by handle btw?

I'll get the ball rolling then. Commuter services from Dundalk to Dublin and Heuston onwards should be clockface. The commuter should only serve the DART stations at peak times. Iarnrod Eireann should bring in 2 storey trains like the Netherlands and Germany and France etc. These aren't actually much bigger than regular Irish Rail DMU engines, as when you enter the train, the lower storey is under the platform level and when you ascend the stairs to the higher level you aren't that much above the ground. Only problem I can see (apart from money) is resistance from unions for driving these new trains.

Irish rail should also introduce the monthly tickets that Dublin bus have, where you can 30 non-consecutive days of unlimited travel, instead of the 1 calendar month ticket that they currently have.

The Idyll Race · 02-09-2012 12:12pm

Finish the railway to Navan

Extend the Sligo railway to Donegal Town and the Derry railway to Letterkenny.

*ducks*

Neewbie_noob · 02-09-2012 12:14pm

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Extend the Sligo railway to Donegal Town and the Derry railway to Letterkenny.

*ducks*

You raise a good point, why is the only border crossing with IE on the Belfast line and why are there no train routes in donegal or Meath (apart from Gormanston or M3 Parkway / Dunboyne).

Heisenberg1 · 02-09-2012 12:21pm

Make better use of what we have no more empty DMU,ICR,DART movements first early bird intercitys to terminate in Connolly for a start.

The Idyll Race · 02-09-2012 12:28pm

Neewbie_noob wrote: »

You raise a good point, why is the only border crossing with IE on the Belfast line and why are there no train routes in donegal or Meath (apart from Gormanston or M3 Parkway / Dunboyne).

Historical reasons going back to the period 1957-1960. The cross border routes were all operated by the Great Northern Railway, which remained a private company until 1953, when it was jointly purchased by Stormont and Dublin. The bulk of the railways in Donegal, which were quite extensive, were operated by a joint venture of the GNR and British Railways and were built to the secondary 3' gauge.

Stormont unilaterally closed in 1957 all the secondary main lines within Northern Ireland without consultation. That meant that the Dundalk - Clones - Enniskillen - Bundoran railway was severed at Beleek at one end and Clones at the other. The Cavan - Clones - Monaghan - Armagh - Portadown railway was severed at Glaslough and ran as a stub freight branch from Dundalk to Clones and Cavan and up to Monaghan. CIE closed the remaining stub from Bundoran - Ballyshannon - Beleek because for obvious reasons it was impossible to operate.

The 3' County Donegal Railways, which ran from Ballyshannon - Donegal - Stranorlar - Strabane, with branches from Strabane to Letterkenny and from Donegal to Killybegs, were closed by the joint committee and replaced by buses and lorries. CIE didn't fully take those over until 1971.

The very last passenger railway in County Donegal was the Great Northern main line from Derry to Portadown, closed by Stormont in 1965, but which ran through Carrigans and St. Johnston on route from Derry to Strabane. CIE owned the railway and stations in the Republic but services were operated by the Ulster Transport Authority.

I'm Donegal and you'll never shift me from the view that we were screwed by both governments on the rail issue!

n97 mini · 02-09-2012 1:07pm

Delete Broombridge and Navan Road Parkway stations.

Run all Dunboyne/M3 Parkway trains into Clonsilla only. Double the frequency of trains from Maynooth to compensate.

Electrify Maynooth line.

TadhgSk · 02-09-2012 1:09pm

Extend DART to Sallins

Neewbie_noob · 02-09-2012 1:10pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Delete Broombridge and Navan Road Parkway stations.

Why? Is there not enough passengers getting on / off to justify a station there?

n97 mini · 02-09-2012 1:14pm

Neewbie_noob wrote: »

Why? Is there not enough passengers getting on / off to justify a station there?

In my opinion, no. But I'm sure someone will contradict me!

As regards NRP, it could actually be retained as a Park & Ride for specials, like sporting events, concerts etc.

Richard tea · 02-09-2012 1:19pm

There should be a train service to Donegal. Many the year I traveled on the bus for a 6 hour journey stopping once in Cavan.

corktina · 02-09-2012 1:23pm

can we keep the fantasy ideas out of this perleez....double deck trains and new routes to Donegal are in this territory....

Wote · 02-09-2012 1:40pm

corktina wrote: »

can we keep the fantasy ideas out of this perleez....double deck trains and new routes to Donegal are in this territory....

Double deck trains would be difficult to implement due to the Irish loading gauge - difficult but not impossible.

As to Donegal, why not? Two options - a line from Derry to Letterkenny would be possible and a line from Sligo to Letterkenny might too. These would have to wait until funding made them possible but never say never.

I suspect Stormont would be a possible source of funding for a Derry Letterkenny line but having Translink as an all Ireland transport organisation would help greatly too.

Thirty years ago many people thought we would never have the motorway network we have now. Getting rail connections to Donegal is technically possible, we just need the political will to do it.

corktina · 02-09-2012 2:53pm

why not? because a connecting bus could do the same job at almost no capital cost and we have no capital....

tbh you'll be lucky to have a rail line in Sligo AT ALL in ten years time, never mind an extention to Co Donegal...and to be honest, Letterkenny is a small town with little or no potential traffic on offer. SO lets keep it realistic, if you want to start a thread about potential new lines do so, but this thread surely is about improving what we've already got.

dowlingm · 02-09-2012 3:14pm

Double deck trains are most often seen where the freight railways got clearance for double stack containers. Didn't happen in Ireland, or else you could have 201s pushpulling 8 double deckers (as long as HEP not needed), given that it would be similar enough to an F59PH (3000hp EMD710), which can handle 10, but given its 100mph gearing ratio 6-8 would probably be more realistic not to mention the need to extend platforms to 10 long. Bear in mind though double decker doesn't mean double capacity - maybe 30-50pc more because of stairs and other physical limitations. Many double deckers are sort of like pocket wagons but unlike the US/Canada Irish trains would be end loading from the high floor door and not able to have low floor mid-coach doors so dwell time at termini would be substantial.

The other thing to note about systems with tall loading gauges is how much of a pain in the ass that makes grade separation. Road over rail becomes far less common because you need maybe 20 feet above rail especially if contemplating double stack AND electric operation for the passenger bits at something like 25kV DC which is the de facto standard for new installs in North America now. Third rail still exists but liability issues (drunks wandering onto the line yet courts still awarding compensation) means railways don't want to have any more of it than they have to.

thomasj · 02-09-2012 3:15pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Delete Broombridge and Navan Road Parkway stations.

I would disagree. I pass by navan road parkway station on the bus nearly every morning and the car park is nearly full.

Broombridge is not that busy but with dits plans for facilities right next to the station there certainly is merit for keeping it.

Run all Dunboyne/M3 Parkway trains into Clonsilla only. Double the frequency of trains from Maynooth to compensate.

I wouldn't jump that gun just yet! With hansfield still to open, there is certainly potential for m3 parkway line give it time and see what happens. At the moment the m3 parkway is running off 2 stations one of which would cost an arm and a leg.

The 3rd one yet to open is on a major town with access to fairly frequent bus connections (39/a).

If it does come to this connections need to be short for it to work.

Electrify Maynooth line.

Agreed!

I would also add that for maynooth line current last trains Monday to Saturday is 11:10pm. This should be pushed back to 11.30pm.

Sundays are much worse with the last train to maynooth at 8.45pm. Later trains on Sunday are badly needed!

The Idyll Race · 02-09-2012 4:25pm

corktina wrote: »

can we keep the fantasy ideas out of this perleez....double deck trains and new routes to Donegal are in this territory....

Are you a mod?

The Idyll Race · 02-09-2012 4:26pm

corktina wrote: »

why not? because a connecting bus could do the same job at almost no capital cost and we have no capital....

tbh you'll be lucky to have a rail line in Sligo AT ALL in ten years time, never mind an extention to Co Donegal...and to be honest, Letterkenny is a small town with little or no potential traffic on offer. SO lets keep it realistic, if you want to start a thread about potential new lines do so, but this thread surely is about improving what we've already got.

Do you know anything about Letterkenny? Small town it is not.

The Idyll Race · 02-09-2012 4:28pm

Wote wrote: »

Double deck trains would be difficult to implement due to the Irish loading gauge - difficult but not impossible.

As to Donegal, why not? Two options - a line from Derry to Letterkenny would be possible and a line from Sligo to Letterkenny might too. These would have to wait until funding made them possible but never say never.

I suspect Stormont would be a possible source of funding for a Derry Letterkenny line but having Translink as an all Ireland transport organisation would help greatly too.

Thirty years ago many people thought we would never have the motorway network we have now. Getting rail connections to Donegal is technically possible, we just need the political will to do it.

The road lobby want to keep saying never. They are frightened of any positive news for the railway and are itching to close the lot.

The Idyll Race · 02-09-2012 4:40pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Delete Broombridge and Navan Road Parkway stations.

What sense would there be in buggering up the future Luas BXD connection by closing Broombridge? There are no problems that could not be solved by the Garda Siochana lifting a few little scrotes.

end of the road · 02-09-2012 4:50pm

corktina wrote: »

because a connecting bus could do the same job at almost no capital cost

no it couldn't, road tax road toals, all what i like to call (an infrastructural subsidy) a railway has more potential to offer faster journey times then a bus ever could. actually a railway from either sligo or derry to donegall might have been more worth while looking at then the WRC. but i would agree such railway won't be built.

corktina wrote: »

and we have no capital....

actually we do but its going to the banks. all though whether you could call that money (capital) is another debate.

corktina wrote: »

tbh you'll be lucky to have a rail line in Sligo AT ALL in ten years time, never mind an extention to Co Donegal.

to be honest we'l be lucky to have dart and commuter in 10 years never mind sligo cork bellfast rosslare tralee and so on with IE in charge.

end of the road · 02-09-2012 5:02pm

what rail routes need are faster speeds and journey times, along with reasonable fairs
(yes i'm aware you can get cheep fairs but if people want to go that day they can be expensive) (also their will probably be no investment to bring up journey times on lines apart from the cork line for now anyway) leaving our railways to rott to eventually shut down would be a very bad mistake, you will never see busses traveling at 125 mph (and rightly so theirs no way i would travel on one doing that speed and i would think most people wouldn't either, also battery/electric busses are a while off yet, the technology may be there at the moment but ireland will leave it a long time before implementing it)
to be honest should all the railways close their won't be many who will try do anything about it anyway, we let the government away with anything and everything so why would railways closing be any different?

n97 mini · 02-09-2012 5:15pm

Wote wrote: »

a line from Sligo to Letterkenny might too.

I'd campaign against this. It's cost more than Metro North and serve 1% of the population, who wouldn't want a tortuous journey via Sligo to anywhere.

AngryLips · 02-09-2012 5:19pm

It's clear that the only solution to the nation's railways is maglev.

n97 mini · 02-09-2012 5:20pm

thomasj wrote: »

I wouldn't jump that gun just yet! With hansfield still to open, there is certainly potential for m3 parkway line give it time and see what happens. At the moment the m3 parkway is running off 2 stations one of which would cost an arm and a leg.

Currently the M3 Parkway branch gets half of all trains yet it serves Dunboyne (population 7,000 and no major industries) and a carpark (unknown population). Maynooth (population 11,000 and a university) and Leixlip (population 15,000 and two of the biggest employers in the state) get the other half. M3 Parkway should not be getting half of all services, and should be run as a branch line.

n97 mini · 02-09-2012 5:21pm

The Idyll Race wrote: »

What sense would there be in buggering up the future Luas BXD connection by closing Broombridge?

Luas BXD doesn't exist! If it ever does, then sure, build a proper mainline station at Broombridge.

n97 mini · 02-09-2012 5:24pm

thomasj wrote: »

I would also add that for maynooth line current last trains Monday to Saturday is 11:10pm. This should be pushed back to 11.30pm.

Sundays are much worse with the last train to maynooth at 8.45pm. Later trains on Sunday are badly needed!

+10000

Last train to Maynooth 20:45 on Sunday, yet last train to Dundalk is 23:37.

The Idyll Race · 02-09-2012 5:34pm

n97 mini wrote: »

I'd campaign against this. It's cost more than Metro North and serve 1% of the population, who wouldn't want a tortuous journey via Sligo to anywhere.

No-one has ever asked the people of Donegal about railways. You might get an answer that you wouldn't want to hear..

161,137 people at the last census is not 1% of the population. Do the math.

Improvement to rail routes (EDIT: using existing network)

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