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Appalling comments by the ISPCA
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There are 61 million people in the Uk.There are 4 million in Ireland.
Naturally there are more homes across the water.
Being a larger landmass with a higher population there would also be more dogs.
I'm undecided how I feel about 'tourism adoption' I can't help but feel it is passing on the problem. Would the kill rate in the UK of UK dogs be lower if Irish dogs weren't sent over?
There is a lot of trust in this as no Irish group would have any jurisditcion/sway over there and vice versa.0 -
To put things in context re the UK situation.
According to the 2009 figures here, out of the 16, 413 dogs that entered Irish pounds that year, 6,506 were pts
According to a Dogs Trust survey for 2009 in the UK, out of the 107, 228 dogs that entered UK pounds that year, 9,310 were pts
http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/p/politics/straydogssurvey2009summaryreport.pdf
Quite a contrast.0 -
doctor evil wrote: »There is a lot of trust in this as no Irish group would have any jurisditcion/sway over there and vice versa.
Not really, because the UK has proper animal welfare law & a very proactive RSPCA to enforce it. The law is also backed up by a population where the vast majority care about animal welfare. Any dog being sent to the UK will be far better protected than it is here.I hope some of the rescues that use the spca name but are unaffiliated with the ispca, such as the dspca, don't lose out on donations over this.
Everyone could lose from Griffin's comments. It could alienate the UK rescues, & reduce donations to all welfare groups here including the ISPCA.
In a typically Irish way he won't resign & I doubt if the ISPCA will sack him, so his view will be seen as representing the ISPCA. There is no easy way to repair the damage. He should of been immediately censured & replaced to make it clear that he does not represent the ISPCA.0 -
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder - a cute dog to one person isn't a cute dog to another. Sorry to offend people now, and I know I will, but I don't like the look of Staffies and other bull breeds, but a lot of posters on here think they are the cutest dog in the world. (I have nothing whatsoever against them, I just prefer a different look in a dog) So please define a cute dog.
He is the CEO of an organisation supposedly there to protect dogs and look after their welfare, so his comments have to be taken in that context. If he was in a different profession and said this, then it obviously would be a different story and people wouldn't be so irate about it.
It certainly is, but if you ask around you'll still find more people willing to share a hotel room with Angelina Jolie than with Ann Widdecombe.
And you'll find more people willing to adopt some dogs and not so many for others.
All this fellow does is wondering why people in another country would be so hot for Ann Widdecombe.0 -
what he just said was a disgrace
I am horrfied that a CEO would say such a thing0 -
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All this fellow does is wondering why people in another country would be so hot for Ann Widdecombe.
I don't know what's worse, him referring to worthless mongrels or you comparing them to that woman :eek:.
I have never fancied a Greyhound until I owned one. Now I would never want to be without one.
One would lose count of all the mongrels that have appeared on film or TV & won hearts - Harvey springs to mind. Of all people the ISPCA should understand the irrationality of one breed versus another. Many of us know that all dogs are nice irrespective of breed & that they reflect their owners.
The ISPCA should focus on saving the dogs in their care instead of slagging others. They should lead by example.0 -
as a volunteer with an animal charity, we regularly take dogs from the Meath Dog Pound. They thankfully RARELY put dogs to sleep because rescue groups in the local area and further afield are contacted if dogs are in danger of being euthanised or if the pound is full. Though I don't know their exact rehoming figures, they rehome over 90% of the dogs that come through their doors and the dogs that are PTS (very rare occasions) are usually sick or aggressive.
Though the conditions are far from desirable - basic and without much comfort, it is better than the dogs roaming free, falling victim to RTAs, cruelty, starvation and disease. It still breaks my heart to walk through any pound and see the vast quantities of dogs, products of ignorance on the most part and then try to pick one to take out to try find a home for it. But they are doing a great job and I wouldn't wish that job on my worst enemy.0 -
The UK is not the land of milk and honey for all dogs. Pounds there are full with Staffies and Staffie crosses, many many of which die there every day because no one wants them and that includes rescues.
Just like in Ireland, the UK has well dodgy rescues.0 -
Just like in Ireland, the UK has well dodgy rescues.
I am surprised that you would make generalisation like this. In my experience whenever a UK rescue came to light that was not up to scratch, usually due to poor housing conditions, someone reported it. Unlike here when the RSPCA get a report they act.
Most incidents that I saw were well meaning people who ended up hoarding animals & not rehoming them. I have never heard of a UK rescue acting in the way that Griffin has suggested.0 -
Maybe he should meet my two mongrels. I get stopped on the street by people who comment on what good looking dogs they are. :-)
I have to say I've never seen an ugly dog. Maybe he should be invited to spend a fortnight in the field working with one of the rescue centres and we'll see if he has the same opinions. Remember the chief officers of the large charities have rarely done much actual field work, but have worked their way up the charity industry from the office sided of things.0 -
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I am surprised that you would make generalisation like this. In my experience whenever a UK rescue came to light that was not up to scratch, usually due to poor housing conditions, someone reported it. Unlike here when the RSPCA get a report they act.
Most incidents that I saw were well meaning people who ended up hoarding animals & not rehoming them. I have never heard of a UK rescue acting in the way that Griffin has suggested.
DD, I am a lot longer in this *game* and actually in rescue, not just a keyboard warrior. I do not ship dogs to the UK by van loads and have stated before that we export our problem. I take dogs FROM the UK and NI quite often as well. In the 15 years I am running EGAR there have been many cases of UK *rescues* popping up and people shipping dogs over without checking them out first. I well remember cases of dogs with Irish chips ending up in UK pounds, UK *rescues* being closed down and owners prosecuted. And not too long ago one person who had been banned in the UK from keeping animals moved to Ireland, started a *rescue* and made national headlines again, this time in Ireland.
No doubt the law in the UK concerning Animal Welfare are better than in Ireland and they are better enforced as well. However, WHAT I am saying is: if you send dogs to the UK then you need to check out where they are going and whether or not the rescue who offers is a proper rescue.
And let's not forget that quite a few Irish rescues send dogs to Italy for example which has a HUGE stray dog problem already, half a million as a matter of fact. Irish dogs *re-homed* to Italy appeared in German animal shelters, rescued by German welfare groups.
Quite a few rescues have what I call a *conveyor belt* mentality, in and out as fast as possible. Whereas this boosts the numbers they *re-home* surely it is not in the interest of the dogs?
I have no doubt that the Border Collie Trust, Dogs Trust etc do great work and responsible re-homing and they take A LOT of Irish dogs. I have no problem with that whatsoever. BUT if you send dogs to the UK, do your homework, not everything shiny is gold.0 -
Quite a few rescues have what I call a *conveyor belt* mentality, in and out as fast as possible. Whereas this boosts the numbers they *re-home* surely it is not in the interest of the dogs?
Neither is leaving them in the Pound to die. If a rescue can run a "conveyor belt" & ensure that its dogs are going to responsible rescues or homes then I see nothing wrong with it. The key is ensuring that each dog goes to the right place. A rescue shouldn't become a zoo.not just a keyboard warrior.
Many here care about welfare & use the internet to post opinion. Some are involved directly in rescue & others have done their bit, be it by fostering, fundraising etc. Their opinions are just as valid as those of a rescue. In my experience anyone who runs a rescue will be so inundated with work that it is difficult finding any time for fundraising etc. Their "keyboard warriors" play a vital role.
One big difference that I have found between rescues here & in the UK is the, for want of a better word, bitchiness. Many of the Irish rescues appear to hate each other & divide into cliques. This has to be detrimental to presenting a united voice & to the welfare of animals. Mr Griffin's comments will cause even further division as some Irish rescues may see it as a validation of their opinion of their "rivals".0 -
Neither is leaving them in the Pound to die. If a rescue can run a "conveyor belt" & ensure that its dogs are going to responsible rescues or homes then I see nothing wrong with it. The key is ensuring that each dog goes to the right place. A rescue shouldn't become a zoo.
Many here care about welfare & use the internet to post opinion. Some are involved directly in rescue & others have done their bit, be it by fostering, fundraising etc. Their opinions are just as valid as those of a rescue. In my experience anyone who runs a rescue will be so inundated with work that it is difficult finding any time for fundraising etc. Their "keyboard warriors" play a vital role.
One big difference that I have found between rescues here & in the UK is the, for want of a better word, bitchiness. Many of the Irish rescues appear to hate each other & divide into cliques. This has to be detrimental to presenting a united voice & to the welfare of animals. Mr Griffin's comments will cause even further division as some Irish rescues may see it as a validation of their opinion of their "rivals".
DD, just to clarify, you see nothing wrong with a rescue that gets a dog in and rehomes it without getting it neutered/spayed, doesn't do a homevisit etc? As sad as it is, there are worse things that can happen to a dog than to be humanely put to sleep, a lot worse things.
Believe me, the bitchiness exists in the UK as well, maybe you've never been on any of the 'rescue' forums over there? Very interesting reading.0 -
This is awful hes obviously in the wrong job0
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Neither is leaving them in the Pound to die. If a rescue can run a "conveyor belt" & ensure that its dogs are going to responsible rescues or homes then I see nothing wrong with it. The key is ensuring that each dog goes to the right place. A rescue shouldn't become a zoo.
Many here care about welfare & use the internet to post opinion. Some are involved directly in rescue & others have done their bit, be it by fostering, fundraising etc. Their opinions are just as valid as those of a rescue. In my experience anyone who runs a rescue will be so inundated with work that it is difficult finding any time for fundraising etc. Their "keyboard warriors" play a vital role.
One big difference that I have found between rescues here & in the UK is the, for want of a better word, bitchiness. Many of the Irish rescues appear to hate each other & divide into cliques. This has to be detrimental to presenting a united voice & to the welfare of animals. Mr Griffin's comments will cause even further division as some Irish rescues may see it as a validation of their opinion of their "rivals".
Your post shows how much you REALLY know about the world of rescue, both here in Ireland AND in the UK.
It has nothing to do with division and you will find that many other Irish rescues agree with me on the points I made in my last post.
There is NO question that Mr. Griffin is in the wrong job and made shocking allegations, made even worse by the email exchange I had with him.0 -
The ISPCA should focus on saving the dogs in their care instead of slagging others. They should lead by example.
All he said was that it's very difficult bordering on impossible to rehome some dogs. I honestly don't understand what's so utterly outrageous about that.
If anything, it says a whole lot about the Irish public, where people will pay fortunes to get dogs with a pedigree rather than picking up a pooch from the pound, and others are irresponsible about neutering their pets.
It's their attitudes that need to change, not this man's.0 -
All he said was that it's very difficult bordering on impossible to rehome some dogs. I honestly don't understand what's so utterly outrageous about that.
If anything, it says a whole lot about the Irish public, where people will pay fortunes to get dogs with a pedigree rather than picking up a pooch from the pound, and others are irresponsible about neutering their pets.
It's their attitudes that need to change, not this man's.
Why is it so difficult to rehome 85% of the dogs in the Donegal pound, but Leitrim pound manage to rehome all but 2%?
You are absolutely right that the public's attitude has to change, but this is the CEO of the organisation that is supposed to look after the welfare of animals in this country, of course his attitude should change.0 -
Why is it so difficult to rehome 85% of the dogs in the Donegal pound, but Leitrim pound manage to rehome all but 2%?
You are absolutely right that the public's attitude has to change, but this is the CEO of the organisation that is supposed to look after the welfare of animals in this country, of course his attitude should change.
You'll find your answer in this post...Ailishcrehan wrote: »as a volunteer with an animal charity, we regularly take dogs from the Meath Dog Pound. They thankfully RARELY put dogs to sleep because rescue groups in the local area and further afield are contacted if dogs are in danger of being euthanised or if the pound is full. Though I don't know their exact rehoming figures, they rehome over 90% of the dogs that come through their doors and the dogs that are PTS (very rare occasions) are usually sick or aggressive.
At a guess I would say the one's with poor statistics do not have similar support infrastructures in comparison with the example above.
Reading that interview, misquoted or not, the guy is coming across as though he's the CEO of HP with one thing in mind..... profit. The dogs are just a commodity and as someone else mentioned, he's clearly in the wrong job.0 -
we have seven rescued mutts, and six rescued moggies so may i give that guy the finger and let him swivel.0
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You'll find your answer in this post...
At a guess I would say the one's with poor statistics do not have similar support infrastructures in comparison with the example above.
Reading that interview, misquoted or not, the guy is coming across as though he's the CEO of HP with one thing in mind..... profit. The dogs are just a commodity and as someone else mentioned, he's clearly in the wrong job.
I know the answer, I was directing my comments at Shenshen, who seems to think that it is okay for the ISPCA to kill 85% of dogs that end up in a particular pound, rather than rehome them, when other pounds around the country that aren't run by them don't have the same difficulty. My point is that Donegal pound is run by the ISPCA, Leitrim is run by an organisation that have an onsite sanctuary and that work extremely well with other rescues. They put a lot of time and effort into working with other organisations to save dogs.
Surely the ISPCA should have the best support infrastructures in the country, as the national animal welfare organisation? So many people work voluntarily in pounds around the country to save dogs, taking photos of the dogs, getting their details onto the internet, transporting dogs from the pounds to foster homes or onto rescue groups, fostering the dogs etc etc. Thats why the infrastructure is there, because people have bothered to put it in place, all volunteers, not paid unlike this man. I know a few animal welfare groups in Donegal, I don't know the politics of it, but I can only guess that the reason they can't get more dogs out of the pound to safety is because of the pound management.0 -
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Your post shows how much you REALLY know about the world of rescue, both here in Ireland AND in the UK.
It has nothing to do with division and you will find that many other Irish rescues agree with me on the points I made in my last post.
I must be a slow learner. I have actually spent as many years actively working with UK rescues as you have in Ireland.
Some rescues here will agree with you & some will disagree. Some people here disagree with you & I always speak up in your defence.DD, just to clarify, you see nothing wrong with a rescue that gets a dog in and rehomes it without getting it neutered/spayed, doesn't do a homevisit etc? As sad as it is, there are worse things that can happen to a dog than to be humanely put to sleep, a lot worse things.
Believe me, the bitchiness exists in the UK as well, maybe you've never been on any of the 'rescue' forums over there? Very interesting reading.
Of course I would see a lot wrong which is why I specifically used the term responsible. I do not believe that there are many UK rescue that do not operate to good standards. A friend of mine has recently had to move a healthy sheep, that has always had a limp, because people kept phoning the RSPCA. I do not accept that a bad UK rescue could operate for long without attracting attention.
If people do not think that there are huge divisions within the rescues in Ireland they need only look at what happened to the one organisation that tried to get them to speak with one voice.
I think that sometimes keeping a dog in a rescue for months, that could be rehomed or fostered, can be worse than being PTS. Many good rescues do operate a conveyor belt in that a dog is fostered asap before it gets institutionalised. Rescues utilise lots of dedicated volunteers & they play a key role in freeing up kennel space & getting the dog back into a home environment. There is nothing wrong with a conveyor belt as long as the right procedures are followed.
Yes quality is more important than quantity unless you are the next dog due to be PTS.0 -
Of course I would see a lot wrong which is why I specifically used the term responsible. I do not believe that there are many UK rescue that do not operate to good standards. A friend of mine has recently had to move a healthy sheep, that has always had a limp, because people kept phoning the RSPCA. I do not accept that a bad UK rescue could operate for long without attracting attention.
If people do not think that there are huge divisions within the rescues in Ireland they need only look at what happened to the one organisation that tried to get them to speak with one voice.
I think that sometimes keeping a dog in a rescue for months, that could be rehomed or fostered, can be worse than being PTS. Many good rescues do operate a conveyor belt in that a dog is fostered asap before it gets institutionalised. Rescues utilise lots of dedicated volunteers & they play a key role in freeing up kennel space & getting the dog back into a home environment. There is nothing wrong with a conveyor belt as long as the right procedures are followed.
Yes quality is more important than quantity unless you are the next dog due to be PTS.
That is not what most people understand from the term conveyor belt rescue, maybe you should use a phrase that accurely describes what you mean.
I never said there aren't divisions in Ireland, I said there are the same divisions in the UK, people are people wherever they are, and politics comes into play in everything.
I agree with an awful lot of what you say DD, but I really think you need to stop giving this impression of the UK as animal welfare utopia. You remind me so much of another poster on here who used to go on about Canada all the time:p Do you not recall the case only a few years ago of the Wiltshire rescue? Dead dogs on the premises, that went on or a long, long time.0 -
I think that sometimes keeping a dog in a rescue for months, that could be rehomed or fostered, can be worse than being PTS. Many good rescues do operate a conveyor belt in that a dog is fostered asap before it gets institutionalised. Rescues utilise lots of dedicated volunteers & they play a key role in freeing up kennel space & getting the dog back into a home environment. There is nothing wrong with a conveyor belt as long as the right procedures are followed.
You do not understand the term *conveyor belt rescue*, DD.
ISDW, do you mean WARAS? http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/16895/EN/UK/
They got dogs from Pounds here in Ireland via Pound Rescues...0 -
You do not understand the term *conveyor belt rescue*, DD.
ISDW, do you mean WARAS? http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/16895/EN/UK/
They got dogs from Pounds here in Ireland via Pound Rescues...
Yeah, thats the place I meant. Just shows the importance of Irish rescues knowing where the dogs are going - something I'm sure the ISPCA could do with a little bit of research.0 -
You do not understand the term *conveyor belt rescue*, DD.
ISDW, do you mean WARAS? http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/16895/EN/UK/
They got dogs from Pounds here in Ireland via Pound Rescues...
The term conveyor belt just refers to a routine practice where one procedure follows another. Many of the bigger UK rescues use a "conveyor belt" system. All it means is that there are a set list of procedures to be followed for every dog such as a Vet assessment, behavioural assessment, neutering etc. Once a dog has fulfilled the necessary conditions then it can be rehomed or relocated to another rescue or rehoming centre thereby freeing up space as quickly as possible.
Some procedures may be missed out if they can be carried out more easily & cheaply by the final recipient. For example I know of several rescues in the UK that don't neuter because their dogs go to specialist rehoming centres that can neuter for a much lower cost. If some rescues have coined the phrase "conveyor belt rescue" as a term of derision then that is up to them.
My real concern is that rescues here are giving Mr Griffin all the ammunition that he needs to validate his comments. He may argue that a few isolated cases, in a population of 60 million, justify his remarks that dogs should not be sent to the UK. The facts are that the vast majority of UK rescues are genuine. I do not profess that it is the land of milk & honey but it is way better than here.
Then all we would need is a for the matter to be raised with our politicians & for a ban to be introduced on rescue exports. My Griffin & our government do not care how many dogs die. What they do care about is control & maybe speaking out against exports is a way of trying to establish more control.0 -
The term conveyor belt just refers to a routine practice where one procedure follows another. Many of the bigger UK rescues use a "conveyor belt" system. All it means is that there are a set list of procedures to be followed for every dog such as a Vet assessment, behavioural assessment, neutering etc. Once a dog has fulfilled the necessary conditions then it can be rehomed or relocated to another rescue or rehoming centre thereby freeing up space as quickly as possible.
Some procedures may be missed out if they can be carried out more easily & cheaply by the final recipient. For example I know of several rescues in the UK that don't neuter because their dogs go to specialist rehoming centres that can neuter for a much lower cost. If some rescues have coined the phrase "conveyor belt rescue" as a term of derision then that is up to them.
My real concern is that rescues here are giving Mr Griffin all the ammunition that he needs to validate his comments. He may argue that a few isolated cases, in a population of 60 million, justify his remarks that dogs should not be sent to the UK. The facts are that the vast majority of UK rescues are genuine. I do not profess that it is the land of milk & honey but it is way better than here.
Then all we would need is a for the matter to be raised with our politicians & for a ban to be introduced on rescue exports. My Griffin & our government do not care how many dogs die. What they do care about is control & maybe speaking out against exports is a way of trying to establish more control.
Sorry DD but that is not what is meant by conveyor belt rescue, well that is not what is understood by everyone that I have ever spoken to about it. The meaning of conveyor belt rescue is that dogs come in and out again without all the necessary vet checks, homevisits etc etc. It means get dogs in and out again as quickly as possible.
I would suggest that it is not only the bigger UK rescues that you mention, but all good rescues that use the methods you refer to. There are procedures to get the dogs vaccinated, neutered, microchipped and assessed, either while they're here with me, or with a foster family. I have had one dog that was here for only a few days, he came in fully vaccinated, microchipped and already neutered. A family that had already adopted a dog from me came to look for a companion, fell in love with him and took him home. They had already passed the homevisit for the previous dog, they had had a follow up visit, had always stayed in touch with photos etc of the dog they had, they brought her with them, she met the new boy, they got on great and so he went home with them. Every other dog stays here until the right home is found for them.
I personally have only taken 3 adult dogs and 6 pups to the UK. One of the adult dogs was a pointer that came to me because nobody else had space for her, she was a fantastic escape artist, 8 foot fences were no problem to her. I took her to a pointer rescue in the UK, she went to a foster family and never left, but that rescue was recommended to me by an Irish rescue that I trust. I took the dog over myself and went to the foster family's home - they live near my parents and brother and I have seen her since - and the fences around their garden that have got higher and higher and higher:D I also took the 2 adult sibes and pups myself and know the rescue they went to very well.0 -
I'm ashamed to be from Limerick when I see how many dogs are put down in my county. It makes me proud of LAW and their work. A girl I work with has 2 pointers. The bitch had pups by a sheepdog last year, I begged her not to give the pups they couldn't offload (her word) to the pound, did she listen? No, those 3 pups were put down. The bitch had purebred pups a couple of weeks ago, she's fallen for one of them, so has decided to give away their older dog, he's almost 10, so she can keep the puppy. She is everything that's wrong with dog ownership in this country.
ISPCA can't be happy with the reaction to the article but at least it has gotten people talking and thinking.0 -
In 2008, when the Local Authority were running Donegal Pound they rehomed/reclaimed 228 dogs. The ISPCA took over & in 2009 they only managed to rehome 123. So they could not even do as well as the LA.
I believe that the article only appeared in the Irish edition of the Sunday Times so it has not really been seen in the UK. If Mr Griffin believes that Irish rescues are sending dogs to the UK, that end up in laboratories or in dog fights, he should name the rescues & prosecute them.0 -
Is there a law to prosecute them under?0
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Really? That's shocking statistics! ISPCA sure aren't doing a very good job!In 2008, when the Local Authority were running Donegal Pound they rehomed/reclaimed 228 dogs. The ISPCA took over & in 2009 they only managed to rehome 123. So they could not even do as well as the LA.
Being a Donegal man, I find the current statistics for PTS numbers quite alarming.0
This discussion has been closed.
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