Is Irish a dead language?

dlofnep · 04-07-2010 3:36pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah, and you were talking off-topic. :rolleyes:

Anyway I think you are right when you say irish death is inevitable. There just is no reason for it's continued existence. Eventually with the increasing speed of gobalisation and the less important role ideals such as nationalism and tribalism play in peoples minds, irish will fall by the way-side never to be picked up again because there is simply no point.

But yet, it's growing in speakers, especially in urban areas - which is evidence of language revival, rather than language extinction. We now have a vast range of Irish media, with relevant and modern programming. We also have a 20 year plan developed from the Government, to increase the amount of daily Irish speakers.

Compare the Irish language today, to how it was in the 60's - 80's. I'd say that we are in a much stronger position to promote the language. While you are certainly entitled to your view that you don't support state-funding for the language - I don't think you can say that it's near extinction with a straight face to be honest.

Learning Irish today is easier than it ever was. With improved access to the language, more and more people will take it up. And hopefully, with a revamped Irish curriculum - it will be more visible in society in 10-20 years, rather than lessened.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 3:36pm

karma_ wrote: »

Globalisation is no excuse for erasing anything of a cultural nature, if anything it is more important than ever to hold on to such things.

Not the way things work I'm afraid. Gobalisation makes other cultures and ideas more accessible to the people. Eventually it breaks down walls and unifies the people of the area so the cultural ideals that divided them in the past seem unimportant.

It's not that people intentionally drop their culture. It's just that gobalisation makes the world a smaller place and local ideals less important.

Which is exactly why N.Ireland will benifite hugely from continued gobalisation.

dlofnep · 04-07-2010 3:41pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not the way things work I'm afraid. Gobalisation makes other cultures and ideas more accessible to the people. Eventually it breaks down walls and unifies the people of the area so the cultural ideals that divided them in the past seem unimportant.

It's not that people intentionally drop their culture. It's just that gobalisation makes the world a smaller place and local ideals less important.

In 500 years from now, the Irish language will still be here, and we'll still be hearing about Globalization. You know what Globalization has done? It has expanded the accessibility of the Irish language. Now, we have more and more people outside of Ireland learning the Irish language. 1000's of people around the world are learning it, because the internet has given them access to it.

CoalBucket · 04-07-2010 3:43pm

owenc wrote: »

There isn't nearly 2 million irish speakers!! Theres no doubt about that.

I agree however these are the only figures presented other than guesstimations.

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 3:43pm

owenc wrote: »

There isn't nearly 2 million irish speakers!! Theres no doubt about that.

I have no doubt that there is that amount with a basic grasp of some Irish.

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 3:44pm

dlofnep wrote: »

In 500 years from now, the Irish language will still be here, and we'll still be hearing about Globalization. You know what Globalization has done? It has expanded the accessibility of the Irish language. Now, we have more and more people outside of Ireland learning the Irish language. 1000's of people around the world are learning it, because the internet has given them access to it.

Exactly. There is even a small Gaeltacht in Canada.

owenc · 04-07-2010 3:45pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I have no doubt that there is that amount with a basic grasp of some Irish.

NO way!

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 3:45pm

owenc wrote: »

NO way!

By basic I mean a few sentences etc...

owenc · 04-07-2010 3:45pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Exactly. There is even a small Gaeltacht in Canada.

lol do yous really think that irish will expand, it'll be gone within 500 years.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 3:45pm

CoalBucket wrote: »

Having read the last 15 plus pages ( tough reading ) I found lots of opinion but little to back it up either way.

For those interested in the only figures available to the number of Irish speakers refer to the following link to the 2006 census which indicate the numbers of Irish speakers has been underestimated in this thread.

http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_9/tables_1-17.pdf

Haha, 1,095,830 Irish speakers in 1991?? The people in the census office must be joking. That figure is very obviously wrong.

CoalBucket wrote: »

I don't speak Irish. I've been through the Irish education system. Maybe it was my dis-interest at the time, the teaching of the language or possibly my ineptitude towards the language.

Despite my inablity I find the "dislike" (the mildest word that comes to mind) of the Irish language astounding.

Why? If it is possible to like a language why is it astounding to dislike a language? Not that I dislike irish. I just find it pointless and a relic of a long gone time.

CoalBucket wrote: »

If you think that it is a complete waste of tax payers money. There is more than enough tax being wasted in this country which might need addressing before trying to justify a case for trying to get rid of our native language. However that is a completly different thread.

Just because there are more other services wasting tax payers money it does not mean Irish isn't also a waste of tax money. Surely you can see how saying "yes irish is a waste but here are other wastes to deal with first", is a bit silly?

CoalBucket wrote: »

trying to get rid of our native language

This gets on my nerves to no end. It is not our native language. It is your's if you want it to be but do not call it our native language.

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 3:46pm

owenc wrote: »

lol do yous really think that irish will expand, it'll be gone within 500 years.

It is expanding. Dont choke on that sand.

dlofnep · 04-07-2010 3:48pm

owenc wrote: »

lol do yous really think that irish will expand, it'll be gone within 500 years.

Wishing thinking, aye Owen?

owenc · 04-07-2010 3:49pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Wishing thinking, aye Owen?

Whatever i'm not going to argue with yous two, you go on and on and on and its doing my head in, everytime i post a point yous go against it in some nationalist way.

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 3:50pm

owenc wrote: »

Whatever i'm not going to argue with yous two, you go on and on and on and its doing my head in, everytime i post a point yous go against it in some nationalist way.

Shock!!!! someone has refuted your points?

Yes, the purpose of this forum is to be in uniform agreement with Owen.

For Gods sake.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 3:52pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Wishing thinking, aye Owen?

Not really. If you think five hundred years ago 90-95% of the population spoke irish. Now only 2-3% speak Irish.

That is a fall of 88-93% in the space of five hundred years. I doubt it will be around in another five hundred.

astrofool · 04-07-2010 3:53pm

It "exists" so it's not dead.

But we should stop wasting so much taxpayer's money so a few people can feel smug about speaking it. It should also be removed as an entry requirement to uni/mandatory on leaving certificate.

Can speak and read the language to a fairly high level, but haven't needed to since finishing the LC for what it's worth.

Would much preferred to have spent the time getting more in depth with French or be able to learn Chinese/Japanese/Spanish/German instead.

karma_ · 04-07-2010 3:55pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not really. If you think five hundred years ago 90-95% of the population spoke irish. Now only 2-3% speak Irish.

That is a fall of 88-93% in the space of five hundred years. I doubt it will be around in another five hundred.

In some form it will be. Like we have now for physical artefacts in museums in 500 years I can envisage some form of cultural museums where things like languages are kept/stored/remembered.

You can make the 500 years argument about any language also, English has also changed drastically in that time.

dlofnep · 04-07-2010 3:58pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not really. If you think five hundred years ago 90-95% of the population spoke irish. Now only 2-3% speak Irish.

That is a fall of 88-93% in the space of five hundred years. I doubt it will be around in another five hundred.

The reason the language fell, was due to a number of factors. The language was banned in the national schools which meant less access to the language in education. The famine also killed off the majority of Irish speakers.

I don't think you can predict the future of the language based on that. You need to look at the language in a modern context. More and more people are speaking it, there is improved access to irish language media, and a new plan to improve the way the language is taught. There is no evidence to suggest the language is going to get weaker. It is now seen as a progressive, and modern language - and society in most part is reacting to it as such.

tinkerbell · 04-07-2010 4:16pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Here we go again. You are wrong, it is not dead, there are thousands of native speakers.

It's not a first language for anyone - I mean you have to speak English in this country or any other language - where will you get with Irish? Ah nowhere. Irish is a complete waste of taxpayers' money - we waste so much money translating stupid bills into Irish, who reads them? Probably just a handful.

If you want to learn it, then fine - go do it on your own time, but I don't want my PAYE being spent on keeping a language going which is practically extinct anyway. We have plenty of other issues to deal with in Ireland that need the money rather than wasting it on the ****e that is the Irish language. I did Irish for 14 years in school and can I even remember how to speak it now? Hardly, how pointless is that. At least I can remember some French and German and they'd actually stand to me if I went to one of those countries. How on earth is Irish helpful to anyone? It's not. It's useless.

CoalBucket · 04-07-2010 4:20pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Haha, 1,095,830 Irish speakers in 1991?? The people in the census office must be joking. That figure is very obviously wrong.

These are the figure presented by the Census. In your opinion the figures are wrong and when you present a source for your opinion I will agree completely.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why? If it is possible to like a language why is it astounding to dislike a language? Not that I dislike irish. I just find it pointless and a relic of a long gone time.

I selected the word dislike as the most moderate expression. It is not a relic of long time gone if it is still in use. It may not be in use by you or myself for that matter but it doesn't mean it is not in use.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Just because there are more other services wasting tax payers money it does not mean Irish isn't also a waste of tax money. Surely you can see how saying "yes irish is a waste but here are other wastes to deal with first", is a bit silly?

I said "If" you think it is a waste of tax payers money. I don't have that opinion. I think the money could be better spent to promote the language.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This gets on my nerves to no end. It is not our native language. It is your's if you want it to be but do not call it our native language.

If Ireland is your nationality Irish is your national language. English is the second language.

This is enshrigned under Article 8 of BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN, otherwise known in English as the Irish Constitution.

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland.pdf

tinkerbell · 04-07-2010 4:25pm

CoalBucket wrote: »

If Ireland is your nationality Irish is your national language. English is the second language.

This is enshrigned under Article 8 of BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN, otherwise known in English as the Irish Constitution.

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland.pdf

How out of date is that article? When was it written, in the 1500s?

Irish is not our official language, and English is not the second language - English is our first language. If that was the case, then why isn't everything in Irish? Sounds to me like that Article 8 needs to be updated, it's BS.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 4:26pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The reason the language fell, was due to a number of factors. The language was banned in the national schools which meant less access to the language in education. The famine also killed off the majority of Irish speakers.

I don't think you can predict the future of the language based on that. You need to look at the language in a modern context. More and more people are speaking it, there is improved access to irish language media, and a new plan to improve the way the language is taught. There is no evidence to suggest the language is going to get weaker. It is now seen as a progressive, and modern language - and society in most part is reacting to it as such.

There was no indication that irish would die out five hundred years ago either but it more or less has now. Thing is we can't see the future. Maybe the language will by some miracle have a total revival and my great grand-daughter will speak Irish natively just like my great grand-father did, (thank you 1911 census). But I seriously doubt it.

But just since you mention the new plan for Irish education here in the south I honestly think it is the worst thing they could possibly do. As a person who did his leaving cert this year I can honestly tell you the pressure before the Irish oral exam is far worse then the pressure before the actual exam. I believe resting 40% of the students results on a 15 minute exam is not only blatently mean but rather un-fair also.

owenc · 04-07-2010 4:28pm

CoalBucket wrote: »

These are the figure presented by the Census. In your opinion the figures are wrong and when you present a source for your opinion I will agree completely.

I selected the word dislike as the most moderate expression. It is not a relic of long time gone if it is still in use. It may not be in use by you or myself for that matter but it doesn't mean it is not in use.

I said "If" you think it is a waste of tax payers money. I don't have that opinion. I think the money could be better spent to promote the language.

If Ireland is your nationality Irish is your national language. English is the second language.

This is enshrigned under Article 8 of BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN, otherwise known in English as the Irish Constitution.

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland.pdf

They were born and bread to a english speaking family so their native language is english and you cannot tell them otherwise.

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 4:28pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There was no indication that irish would die out five hundred years ago either but it more or less has now. Thing is we can't see the future. Maybe the language will by some miracle have a total revival and my great grand-daughter will speak Irish natively just like my great grand-father did, (thank you 1911 census). But I seriously doubt it.

But just since you mention the new plan for Irish education here in the south I honestly think it is the worst thing they could possibly do. As a person who did his leaving cert this year I can honestly tell you the pressure before the Irish oral exam is far worse then the pressure before the actual exam. I believe resting 40% of the students results on a 15 minute exam is not only blatently mean but rather un-fair also.

I did my LC this year too, and I felt that the aural and oral were the least stressful part of the exam. Higher or ordinary?

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 4:29pm

owenc wrote: »

They were born and bread to a english speaking family so their native language is english.

The first language is Irish. It says so in the constitution.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 4:30pm

CoalBucket wrote: »

These are the figure presented by the Census. In your opinion the figures are wrong and when you present a source for your opinion I will agree completely.

So you are willing to believe every piece of bullshít that comes from the governments mouth? No wonder you support the continued waste of tax-payers money.

CoalBucket wrote: »

I selected the word dislike as the most moderate expression. It is not a relic of long time gone if it is still in use. It may not be in use by you or myself for that matter but it doesn't mean it is not in use.

But it is still a relic. A relic in use is still a relic.

CoalBucket wrote: »

I said "If" you think it is a waste of tax payers money. I don't have that opinion. I think the money could be better spent to promote the language.

Ok then can you give me pragmatic reasons why Irish is worth every penny it recieves? And notice I wrote pragmatic.

CoalBucket wrote: »

If Ireland is your nationality Irish is your national language. English is the second language.

This is enshrigned under Article 8 of BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN, otherwise known in English as the Irish Constitution.

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland.pdf

I know what is wrote in the constitution thanks. I have a copy as home. Either way the language of the state is not my native language. Ok?

owenc · 04-07-2010 4:31pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The first language is Irish. It says so in the constitution.

Their language is english. Its stupid saying that the first language is irish whenever 100,000 only speak it when well over 4 million speak english.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 4:31pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I did my LC this year too, and I felt that the aural and oral were the least stressful part of the exam. Higher or ordinary?

You're crazy.

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 4:31pm

owenc wrote: »

Their language is english. Its stupid saying that the first language is irish whenever 100,000 only speak it when well over 4 million speak english.

So then you feel the constitution is stupid then.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 4:32pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The first language is Irish. It says so in the constitution.

It could say in the constitution that I am a cloud. That doesn't mean I am a cloud.

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 4:32pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're crazy.

Ha, not at all. I nearly had a heart attack when I saw paper 2, give me the oral any day!

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 4:33pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So then you feel the constitution is stupid then.

Don't put words in his mouth.

CoalBucket · 04-07-2010 4:33pm

tinkerbell wrote: »

How out of date is that article? When was it written, in the 1500s?

No it was enacted by the people of Ireland in 1937. It's most recent ammendment was in 2004.

tinkerbell wrote: »

Irish is not our official language, and English is not the second language - English is our first language.

Em again The Constitution of the state disagrees.

tinkerbell wrote: »

If that was the case, then why isn't everything in Irish?

Indeed

tinkerbell wrote: »

Sounds to me like that Article 8 needs to be updated, it's BS.

Which other articles of the constitution do you think are Bulls*** ?

owenc · 04-07-2010 4:33pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So then you feel the constitution is stupid then.

Yes its the most i****** thing i've seen in my life.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 4:34pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

give me the oral any day!

:pac:

tinkerbell · 04-07-2010 4:34pm

^^ Yep. If the constitution is right then why are all our tv shows in English? Why is most of RTE programming in English? Why doesn't Brian Cowen address the nation in just Irish and not English?

Just because the constitution says it's the native language, doesn't mean it's right - it's a whole load of BS that's what it is!

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 4:34pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't put words in his mouth.

owenc wrote: »

Yes its the most idiotic thing i've seen in my life.

Lucky guess I think.....

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 4:35pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

:pac:

Haha, either way it was better than paper 2!

tinkerbell · 04-07-2010 4:35pm

CoalBucket wrote: »

Which other articles of the constitution do you think are Bulls*** ?

Dunno, I have no interest in reading the constitution - none at all. So all I've read on it is what quoted here as Article 8.

So maybe I'd think more of it was BS if I actually read the thing - but that ain't likely to happen.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I read it, I don't - doesn't bother me in the least

owenc · 04-07-2010 4:35pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Lucky guess I think.....

Are you trying to get me banned.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 4:35pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Lucky guess I think.....

Oh Jeeez, Owen! I was defending you.

dlofnep · 04-07-2010 4:37pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But just since you mention the new plan for Irish education here in the south I honestly think it is the worst thing they could possibly do. As a person who did his leaving cert this year I can honestly tell you the pressure before the Irish oral exam is far worse then the pressure before the actual exam. I believe resting 40% of the students results on a 15 minute exam is not only blatently mean but rather un-fair also.

Speaking & listening are the most important aspects of a language. Why shouldn't it receive just weight in marks?

Wolfe Tone · 04-07-2010 4:38pm

tinkerbell wrote: »

Dunno, I have no interest in reading the constitution - none at all. So all I've read on it is what quoted here as Article 8.

So maybe I'd think more of it was BS if I actually read the thing - but that ain't likely to happen.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I read it, I don't - doesn't bother me in the least

You should read it, fascinating stuff.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 4:42pm

By the way CoalBucket. Do you know what the definition of native language is? Obviously not so I'll provide you with a quote and link from wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:

A first language (also native language, arterial language, or L1) is the language a person has learned from birth or speaks the best.

Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_language

Now seeing as I didn't speak Irish from birth and it is not by far the language I speak best we can conclude from this that it is not my native language as it does not fit the definition of a native language. Ok?

There is nothing wrong with being wrong. But please in future don't use terms such as our native language when in the presence of one who does not share your misty eyed celtic tripe.

owenc · 04-07-2010 4:43pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

By the way CoalBucket. Do you know what the definition of native language is? Obviously not so I'll provide you with a quote and link from wikipedia:

Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_language

Now seeing as I didn't speak Irish from birth and it is not by far the language I speak best we can conclude from this that it is not my native language as it does not fit the definition of a native language. Ok?

There is nothing wrong with being wrong. But please in future don't use terms such as our native language when in the presence of one who does not share your misty eyed celtic tripe.

At last someone has proven them wrong!:eek:

charlemont · 04-07-2010 4:44pm

the englishman would laugh at us if he read all of these threads, bickering and arguing about our own language, ye turncoats can kiss mine........

irish was deliberately though in a **** manner in schools

, how is it my own son thought me more about the language in a day then i learned in primary school.

Iwasfrozen · 04-07-2010 4:44pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Speaking & listening are the most important aspects of a language. Why shouldn't it receive just weight in marks?

Because it adds undue pressure on students who already have their hands full. I always liked the German course, are you familiar with it? I think something like that. Especially for Ordinary level would be the best way to go.

dlofnep · 04-07-2010 4:49pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because it adds undue pressure on students who already have their hands full. I always liked the German course, are you familiar with it? I think something like that. Especially for Ordinary level would be the best way to go.

I'm not. I only studied German for the junior cert, and that was 15 years ago - so I can't remember much of it to be honest.

But I agree, in the context of - that you can't just put added marks on for spoken Irish, unless something is done beforehand to improve your spoken Irish. Therefore, language immersion is the best way to solve that.

But spoken Irish IMO is the most important aspect of the language, and yet - it's the one that we struggle with most. I learned to speak Irish through immersion, so I feel it's the best way to solve this.

CoalBucket · 04-07-2010 4:51pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you are willing to believe every piece of bullshít that comes from the governments mouth? No wonder you support the continued waste of tax-payers money.

No I don't believe every word that comes out of the governments mouth. The Census is not carried out by the government. It is carried out by a state agency known as the central statistics office. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the government.

I don't support waste of tax payers money. I do support efficient spending on the official language of the state. I do not contend that the way the money is currently spent is efficient but I don't believe that all funding towards Irish should be withdrawn.

Do me a favour and read what I actually said rather assuming something that you erroneously inferred.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But it is still a relic. A relic in use is still a relic.

In your opinion it is a relic. I disagree.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ok then can you give me pragmatic reasons why Irish is worth every penny it recieves? And notice I wrote pragmatic.

I addressed my opinions on spending on the Irish language above. I do hope you find the response pragmatic.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I know what is wrote in the constitution thanks. I have a copy as home. Either way the language of the state is not my native language. Ok?

It is the official language of the state. What you choose to stand by or ignore in the constitution is a matter for you.

caseyann · 04-07-2010 4:53pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I think with the huge popularity of Gaelscoileanna (it basically guarantees a child a honors in LC Irish) the trend for Irish can only go up. I really wish I went to one, would love to be fluent or at least partially fluent. It shames me whenever I am talking to foreign people and they react with surprise that there is an Irish language. Their reaction is almost uniformly "why are you not speaking it?" And I can barely muster together a few basic sentences. Personally I feel there is a lot of national pride to be found in a language.

Ever thought about a tutor or night classes ?;)Friends of mine from eastern europe are taking Irish classes and love it

Irish (Gaeilge) is a Celtic language and is the official language of Ireland. Since the 1st of January 2007 Irish has been an official language of the European Union. Of the 4 million plus residents in the Republic of Ireland approximately 85,000 speak Irish on a daily basis;)

Is Irish a dead language?

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