Water meters install problem

Froststop · 09-01-2014 5:53pm

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Surely Irish Water would have all their meters insured for such eventualities

That raises a good question, who is the owner of the meter?
I would think the home owner as it's after the stopcock on the mains. I have not found anything to suggest Irish Water own the meters. Has anyone info regarding this?

DoesNotCompute · 09-01-2014 5:58pm

Froststop wrote: »

That raises a good question, who is the owner of the meter?
I would think the home owner as it's after the stopcock on the mains. I have not found anything to suggest Irish Water own the meters. Has anyone info regarding this?

The homeowner (afaik) never "purchase" the meter from Irish Water. Therefore the homeowner doesn't own the meter - Irish Water do.

Froststop · 09-01-2014 6:03pm

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

The homeowner (afaik) never "purchase" the meter from Irish Water. Therefore the homeowner doesn't own the meter - Irish Water do.

I would agree, they are charging us over twenty years for "a" meter, so are we renting? Only problem is, a meter won't last twenty years IMO. Are they allowing to have to change meters before the term runs out, maybe three meters depending on quality of water.

L1011 · 09-01-2014 7:04pm

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Surely Irish Water would have all their meters insured for such eventualities

There is a point of inevitability of claims sometimes where insurance costs more than covering the losses yourself. This is one of those.

Victor · 09-01-2014 7:14pm

Froststop wrote: »

I assume if the meter bursts after a freeze they won't accept liability.

Why wouldn't they?

Froststop · 09-01-2014 7:26pm

Victor wrote: »

Why wouldn't they?

They won't IMO we'll have to wait and see. But here's todays news http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0109/496778-irish-water/ worth a read.

Froststop · 09-01-2014 7:47pm

"Irish Water CEO John Tierney has said the company spent €50m on consultants last year."

Hmmm, Bet some of those consultants are involved in supplying the meters! IW mustn't have a clue about metering. Where did this money come from? "Property Tax!"

"A decision on the final amount to be charged for water rates will be made by the end of August. Mr Tierney said existing charges for businesses are likely to rise in large urban areas. It also confirmed that Irish Water may also increase charges if it has higher than anticipated costs because of unforeseen events such as extreme weather conditions including droughts or big freezes."

They are planing on raising the cost of bill even before they decide the actual cost!

"Irish Water will have the power to restrict the flow of water to those who refuse to pay, which will be important in terms of bill collection."

Would love to know how they plan on restricting water to individual homes! Without causing damage to appliances or worse scalding people using instant electric appliances.

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A20502210%3A15036%3A09%2D01%2D2014%3A

Victor · 10-01-2014 12:58am

This is the Infrastructure Forum. Can we keep the thread on topic and not get into politics?

Moderator

This has nothing to do with property tax.

Froststop · 10-01-2014 3:04am

Victor wrote: »

This is the Infrastructure Forum. Can we keep the thread on topic and not get into politics?

Moderator

This has nothing to do with property tax.

Just stating the fact where the money is coming from to pay for the metering program!

Five Lamps · 10-01-2014 3:06pm

Froststop wrote: »

"Irish Water CEO John Tierney has said the company spent €50m on consultants last year."

Think Accenture is one of those consultants. They have recruited and trained people to go into the councils to prepare the transition.

Hmmm, Bet some of those consultants are involved in supplying the meters! IW mustn't have a clue about metering. Where did this money come from? "Property Tax!"

Presume it would come from central funds.

"A decision on the final amount to be charged for water rates will be made by the end of August. Mr Tierney said existing charges for businesses are likely to rise in large urban areas. It also confirmed that Irish Water may also increase charges if it has higher than anticipated costs because of unforeseen events such as extreme weather conditions including droughts or big freezes."

They are planing on raising the cost of bill even before they decide the actual cost!

This is frankly unacceptable. It should already be factored into the cost. It means that IW have no incentive to run and maintain an efficient system.

"Irish Water will have the power to restrict the flow of water to those who refuse to pay, which will be important in terms of bill collection."

Would love to know how they plan on restricting water to individual homes! Without causing damage to appliances or worse scalding people using instant electric appliances.

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A20502210%3A15036%3A09%2D01%2D2014%3A

They'd isolate supply at the meter as they can do now. One assumes that the householder would be well informed that they are being cut off.

Froststop · 10-01-2014 3:12pm

Five Lamps wrote: »

They'd isolate supply at the meter as they can do now. One assumes that the householder would be well informed that they are being cut off.

Yes but how do they propose to isolate at the meter?

Five Lamps · 10-01-2014 3:28pm

Froststop wrote: »

Yes but how do they propose to isolate at the meter?

Almost every premises today can be isolated from a valve on the street. I presume that the meter will be inline with the valve.

Froststop · 10-01-2014 4:01pm

Five Lamps wrote: »

Almost every premises today can be isolated from a valve on the street. I presume that the meter will be inline with the valve.

So do you think they will just shut the stop valve? Or will they dig the street to do it at the actual council main?

Five Lamps · 10-01-2014 6:53pm

Froststop wrote: »

So do you think they will just shut the stop valve? Or will they dig the street to do it at the actual council main?

I presume that there will be a system that would be on the lines of disconnecting other utilities such as gas. Some sort of mechanical lock put on the supply near the meter. You don't need to dig up the street to do this.

Froststop · 10-01-2014 8:29pm

Five Lamps wrote: »

I presume that there will be a system that would be on the lines of disconnecting other utilities such as gas. Some sort of mechanical lock put on the supply near the meter. You don't need to dig up the street to do this.

Can't lock the stop cock in case of needing to turn off in an emergency or disconnect without digging.

Five Lamps · 13-01-2014 12:29am

Froststop wrote: »

Can't lock the stop cock in case of needing to turn off in an emergency or disconnect without digging.

Surely if the meter is locked then the water supply is already isolated/disconnected so there would be no situation that you describe.

Froststop · 13-01-2014 12:42am

Five Lamps wrote: »

Surely if the meter is locked then the water supply is already isolated/disconnected so there would be no situation that you describe.

The water can't be turn off 100% by IW. They have to allow enough for human consumption as it's a legal right. According to United Nations A/RES/64/292

Your statement also raises the question of who actually owns the meter box?

The stopcock is a control valve to a building! That's like locking the electrical box and needing to turn it off in the event of an potential electrical accident/problem.

I'm risking Victor coming at me now as we're going off topic!!!

Five Lamps · 13-01-2014 1:09am

Froststop wrote: »

The water can't be turn off 100% by IW. They have to allow enough for human consumption as it's a legal right. According to United Nations A/RES/64/292

Let's call it a restrictor - whether it stops the flow completely or substantially reduces pressure.

You'd be pushing it quoting a UN resolution. It's aimed at tackling a real issue in the developing world. So even if you were to stretch it to Ireland, I can't see how your rights would be infringed when you can go pop into a German discounter and buy 5L of drinking water for very little.

Your statement also raises the question of who actually owns the meter box?

Would have thought that was Irish Water. Electric and gas meters are the property of the respective networks.

The stopcock is a control valve to a building! That's like locking the electrical box and needing to turn it off in the event of an potential electrical accident/problem.

I'm risking Victor coming at me now as we're going off topic!!!

Yes and for most people that valve is already outside on the street under a cover marked 'uisce'. This is addition to an internal stopcock. Plus if the supply it's already restricted or completely off then what emergency situation would arise? Even if for some reason (and I can't think of one) supply needed to be restored then I'm sure IW would have emergency crews available to do so in the same way that other utility network companies respond to emergency situations.

Froststop · 13-01-2014 1:36am

Five Lamps wrote: »

Let's call it a restrictor - whether it stops the flow completely or substantially reduces pressure.

You can call it what you like! They would have to dig to fit a restrictor. Can't see them going to that expense. I have connected enough mains water pipes to council stopcocks to know. Have you seen a boundary box, and what's inside?

Five Lamps wrote: »

You'd be pushing it quoting a UN resolution. It's aimed at tackling a real issue in the developing world. So even if you were to stretch it to Ireland, I can't see how your rights would be infringed when you can go pop into a German discounter and buy 5L of drinking water for very little.

This is the reason we are being screwed. Have we any right, may as well be dead! If they told you in the morning to jump off a cliff because it was law would you do it? No you'd find every loophole to avoid it!

Five Lamps wrote: »

Would have thought that was Irish Water. Electric and gas meters are the property of the respective networks.

So are we buying the meters for €800 or renting them?

Five Lamps wrote: »

Yes and for most people that valve is already outside on the street under a cover marked 'uisce'. This is addition to an internal stopcock. Plus if the supply it's already restricted or completely off then what emergency situation would arise? Even if for some reason (and I can't think of one) supply needed to be restored then I'm sure IW would have emergency crews available to do so in the same way that other utility network companies respond to emergency situations.

From what I'm aware, they will be changing out the existing stopcock and replacing it for the new boundary box complete with meter and stopcock inside. So if they lock it, then they are preventing access to the stopcock. If they restrict the flow, and if a problem develops then the home owner can't access the stopcock to turn off water to allow for a repair in the building.

Five Lamps · 13-01-2014 1:51am

Froststop wrote: »

You can call it what you like! They would have to dig to fit a restrictor. Can't see them going to that expense. I have connected enough mains water pipes to council stopcocks to know. Have you seen a boundary box, and what's inside?

Isn't it already there? On my street, every house has one out on the pavement. I haven't seen any of these new meters but if IW are claiming they can switch off non payers then they must have the ability integrated into the meter. Or perhaps they'll use the existing street valves if already present. They'll own those as well.

This is the reason we are being screwed. Have we any right, may as well be dead! If they told you in the morning to jump off a cliff because it was law would you do it? No you'd find every loophole to avoid it!

Your rights aren't infringed at all. A clean water and sanitation supply is being delivered to your front door. The UN right doesn't imply that access has to be free of charge. It only has to be affordable.

So are we buying the meters for €800 or renting them?

I presume the installation and use of it?

From what I'm aware, they will be changing out the existing stopcock and replacing it for the new boundary box complete with meter and stopcock inside. So if they lock it, then they are preventing access to the stopcock. If they restrict the flow, and if a problem develops then the home owner can't access the stopcock to turn off water to allow for a repair in the building.

Most homes have an internal stop cock to handle the situation you describe.

Froststop · 13-01-2014 2:01am

Five Lamps wrote: »

Isn't it already there? On my street, every house has one out on the pavement. I haven't seen any of these new meters but if IW are claiming they can switch off non payers then they must have the ability integrated into the meter. Or perhaps they'll use the existing street valves if already present. They'll own those as well.

Not restrictors, only stopcocks. There is a lot of talk of IW being able to shut restrict flow remotely, but not on a cheap meter.

Five Lamps wrote: »

Your rights aren't infringed at all. A clean water and sanitation supply is being delivered to your front door. The UN right doesn't imply that access has to be free of charge. It only has to be affordable.

Not if you can't access it.

Five Lamps wrote: »

I presume the installation and use of it?

€800 for a €95 meter and reader.

Five Lamps wrote: »

Most homes have an internal stop cock to handle the situation you describe.

A lot of homes have only a stopcock on the street. About 20% are missing, regularly I have been unable to find a stopcock for homes.

Victor · 13-01-2014 9:15am

Froststop wrote: »

So are we buying the meters for €800 or renting them?

IW are specifying a certain standard of water meter, whether that is (a) Model X (b) any meter to standard Y or (c) any model that has features A, B & C.

IW are buying it and will always own it. The customer never buys it and never owns it. The price IW are paying is between them and their suppliers / contractors.

The customer will pay a fixed charge and a usage charge. Part of this income will go towards metering.

This is exactly the same as any other utility.

Five Lamps · 13-01-2014 10:21am

Froststop wrote: »

Not if you can't access it.

I think it's really important that you read and understand the entire "right". Firstly, it's not directed at us in the first world though it does apply. The right is access to affordable source of water and sanitation in an equitable manner. I can't see anybody getting too far in a case here if drinking water and sanitation is delivered to their home and they choose not to pay. Best of luck with that one.

A lot of homes have only a stopcock on the street. About 20% are missing, regularly I have been unable to find a stopcock for homes.

They should go sort out their plumbing them.

Froststop · 13-01-2014 3:04pm

Five Lamps wrote: »

I think it's really important that you read and understand the entire "right". Firstly, it's not directed at us in the first world though it does apply. The right is access to affordable source of water and sanitation in an equitable manner. I can't see anybody getting too far in a case here if drinking water and sanitation is delivered to their home and they choose not to pay. Best of luck with that one.

A lot of talk going around, we'll have to wait and see if anything will come out of it.

Five Lamps wrote: »

They should go sort out their plumbing them.

I looks like most "lost stopcocks" have been lost due to resurfacing of roads & footpaths. Can't figure out why anyone in their right mind would cover them. This also creates the problem for IW to find them to fit meters.

anonanymore · 13-01-2014 3:23pm

Froststop wrote: »

A lot of talk going around, we'll have to wait and see if anything will come out of it.

I looks like most "lost stopcocks" have been lost due to resurfacing of roads & footpaths. Can't figure out why anyone in their right mind would cover them. This also creates the problem for IW to find them to fit meters.

My stopcock is in the road, some years ago the council tarmaced over it.
I mentioned it to the council, but nothing was done.
Luckily I had previously fitted a stopcock on my property.

anonanymore · 13-01-2014 3:30pm

Froststop wrote: »

From what I'm aware, they will be changing out the existing stopcock and replacing it for the new boundary box complete with meter and stopcock inside. So if they lock it, then they are preventing access to the stopcock. If they restrict the flow, and if a problem develops then the home owner can't access the stopcock to turn off water to allow for a repair in the building.

I don't Know how they are going to lock the boundary box, I got this reply from Irish Water when inquiring about reading the meter.

"Thank you for your query with regards to reading your Irish Water meter.

Should you wish to read your meter, please follow the following guidelines:

To obtain access to the meter box, there are three recesses on the surface of the meter box lid. You can open the lid using a flat headed screw driver. Ensure that you insert the screw driver correctly as there is a rubber seal which protects the meter from rainwater. You then remove the lid and the frost plug."

Froststop · 13-01-2014 4:09pm

anonanymore wrote: »

I don't Know how they are going to lock the boundary box, I got this reply from Irish Water when inquiring about reading the meter.

"Thank you for your query with regards to reading your Irish Water meter.

Should you wish to read your meter, please follow the following guidelines:

To obtain access to the meter box, there are three recesses on the surface of the meter box lid. You can open the lid using a flat headed screw driver. Ensure that you insert the screw driver correctly as there is a rubber seal which protects the meter from rainwater. You then remove the lid and the frost plug."

They're using standard boundary boxes judging by the reply! I believe they can't lock them, but it's been suggested that they will restrict flow to those who don't pay and I was looking to find out how they were going to do it. I suggested the home owner could just turn the stopcock on full again afterwards & it was suggested by another poster they could lock them. From my knowledge of boundary boxes, they can't restrict flow without digging it up and the design of the boxes doesn't allow for locks to be fitted.

There is even suggestions that IW can restrict flow remotely on other sites!

I think IW are putting these notions forward in news reports and on media to play on people who don't know any better.

Victor · 13-01-2014 11:36pm

Froststop wrote: »

There is even suggestions that IW can restrict flow remotely on other sites!

That would require it to be internet connected, which would be incredibly rare.

I think IW are putting these notions forward in news reports and on media to play on people who don't know any better.

I'm not seeing any of these reports. Are you sure it isn't just you?

Froststop · 14-01-2014 12:25am

Victor wrote: »

That would require it to be internet connected, which would be incredibly rare.

Not that rare, I have one fitted in my house which allows me to login when I want to view my water consumption in real time to within 30 mins. There are other type available also.

Victor wrote: »

I'm not seeing any of these reports. Are you sure it isn't just you?

Restricting the flow is mentioned in all these.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-water-boss-says-flow-will-be-down-to-a-trickle-if-charges-not-paid-29904311.html

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-water-splash-out-100-3006140

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0109/496778-irish-water/

Posters on other sites are claiming that IW can do it remotely.
But this is impossible with the equipment IW have purchased.

Five Lamps · 17-01-2014 12:47am

Froststop wrote: »

Not that rare, I have one fitted in my house which allows me to login when I want to view my water consumption in real time to within 30 mins. There are other type available also.

IS this expensive? I wonder will many people do this to verify the meter in the ground outside?

Carawaystick · 18-01-2014 3:00am

Victor wrote: »

That would require it to be internet connected, which would be incredibly rare.
I'm not seeing any of these reports. Are you sure it isn't just you?

It'd also mean there's electrical power, and unless they're gonna buy a load of batteries...
but then, no-one can get fired for being useless if they get a job there....

Froststop · 18-01-2014 2:32pm

Five Lamps wrote: »

IS this expensive? I wonder will many people do this to verify the meter in the ground outside?

I made it up my self with the help of a friend in the US, parts were reasonable as it was made from scratch including printed circuit boards etc. However to put it on the market it would work out a bit pricey for one off systems, it would depend on the volumes. If the volume was large enough I think it would be costing between €180-250. It has the potential to be customised for any application using any communication type, sim, WiFi, Bluetooth etc.

Froststop · 18-01-2014 2:36pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

It'd also mean there's electrical power, and unless they're gonna buy a load of batteries...
but then, no-one can get fired for being useless if they get a job there....

It would require a 12V power supply for live readings, but can also be set up on battery. However battery would only allow for 4 readings per day to get a reasonable battery life.

Froststop · 20-01-2014 11:48am

Five Lamps wrote: »

IS this expensive? I wonder will many people do this to verify the meter in the ground outside?

Verifying the IW meter is one thing, why not set it up to calculate bills also?
Home owners could just inter the start & end dates of their bill, inter cost per cubic meter, standing charge and proposed free allowance, click GO and the system could calculate the bill automatically once the cost of water & standing charges etc are known/announced. I have mine set up to calculate the consumption for the period selected on the graph at €2.30/cubic mt. Also it sleeps when there is not consumption, showing a flat line on the graph.

Froststop · 22-01-2014 12:17am

Came across this tonight, same type system IW have purchased. Make me wonder what we will have to put up with. These systems are being taken out in the US due to problems.:rolleyes:

http://youtu.be/16gI4pCeQxw

Cuttlefish · 22-01-2014 10:24am

Froststop wrote: »

Came across this tonight, same type system IW have purchased. Make me wonder what we will have to put up with. These systems are being taken out in the US due to problems.:rolleyes:

http://youtu.be/16gI4pCeQxw

This is quite worrying.

You know where Irish Water is going eventually - privatisation and this is where we will end up.

Lone customer against a large company who wont care about sky rocketing bills or inaccurate readings or the fact that the drive-by readings are 13% inaccurate

Victor · 22-01-2014 3:51pm

Froststop wrote: »

Came across this tonight, same type system IW have purchased. Make me wonder what we will have to put up with.

Different manufacturer (Irish Water are using Itron and Diehl. No indication in the video as to why there are problems, other than (a) customer-side fault or (b) the wrong meter size being used (half inch pipe -v- one inch pipe).

These systems are being taken out in the US due to problems.:rolleyes:

Are they?

Cuttlefish wrote: »

You know where Irish Water is going eventually - privatisation and this is where we will end up.

Off-topic, but that is unlikely to happen for a long time.

the fact that the drive-by readings are 13% inaccurate

You might watch the video again.

Cuttlefish · 22-01-2014 4:34pm

Victor wrote: »

Different manufacturer (Irish Water are using Itron and Diehl. No indication in the video as to why there are problems, other than (a) customer-side fault or (b) the wrong meter size being used (half inch pipe -v- one inch pipe).

Are they?

Off-topic, but that is unlikely to happen for a long time.

You might watch the video again.

Define a long time please?

Froststop · 23-01-2014 1:54am

Victor wrote: »

Different manufacturer (Irish Water are using Itron and Diehl.

Yes but same type, drive by system.

Victor wrote: »

Are they?

DC water & Fairfax off the top of my head. I could make an enquiry to find out some more from a contact in the US in the water management business.

Froststop · 14-02-2014 11:01pm

Froststop wrote: »

Came across this tonight, same type system IW have purchased. Make me wonder what we will have to put up with. These systems are being taken out in the US due to problems.:rolleyes:

http://youtu.be/16gI4pCeQxw

May have found the cause of incorrect readings regarding the video in the above link.
The fault is number snagging. This is when as one dial turns it snags the dial to the left and drags that number on as well, for example you meter is reading 00199 and as it turns to 00200 the number 2 snags the zero to the left and drags it around as well so now the meter reads 01200 instead of 00200. This could be the reason problems with over charging are happening.

Before you ask, yes Itron have the same fault. Infact it can happen on numerous types of meters, Elster, Kent, Schlumberger, Invensys Socam.

Froststop · 14-02-2014 11:07pm

Has anyone got pictures of the Itron & Diehl meters IW are using, taken from the bottom/threaded side where the meter screws into the manifold.

projectvv · 17-10-2014 9:41am

Apparently, they cant meter for every house due to something to do with the piping and I heard they are block billing 3 houses, so that means 2 out of every 3 meters are dummies. then they will probably try to make a guess on the basis of the number of people in each household, that my explain why they are using bribery tactics to get peoples info to see how many kids etc in each house.

markpb · 17-10-2014 10:02am

projectvv wrote: »

Apparently, they cant meter for every house due to something to do with the piping and I heard they are block billing 3 houses, so that means 2 out of every 3 meters are dummies. then they will probably try to make a guess on the basis of the number of people in each household, that my explain why they are using bribery tactics to get peoples info to see how many kids etc in each house.

I heard that Sierra are installing meters using magic fairies and pixie dust and that all Irish Water staff are actually rejects from Santas toy making factory.

projectvv · 17-10-2014 10:25am

Unfortunately, we are not all engineers or working it the water works department, and therefore most of the threads posted on the likes of these forums are from what "we heard". Ultimately, it may be proven to be true or false, but unless the point is emanated through forums likes this, we will never know now, will we?

Sierra Oscar · 21-10-2014 12:29am

projectvv wrote: »

Apparently, they cant meter for every house due to something to do with the piping and I heard they are block billing 3 houses, so that means 2 out of every 3 meters are dummies. then they will probably try to make a guess on the basis of the number of people in each household, that my explain why they are using bribery tactics to get peoples info to see how many kids etc in each house.

Irish Water have confirmed though that if you do not have your own specific meter then you will received an unmetered bill which I assume is just an estimate based on family size and the like.

Bit worrying that we still don't know how exactly an unmetered bill will be determined though.

What is an unmetered bill?

An unmetered bill is the type of bill sent to customers who do not have, or are not able to have, a water meter due to economic or physical circumstances. This is subject to change. Irish Water will be responsible for submitting a water charges plan to the CER for their approval. Irish Water and the CER are not in a position to advise on the level of charges or allowances until this process has concluded.

It seems so rushed and messy.

Colm R · 21-10-2014 3:45pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It seems so rushed and messy.

It will be messy for those that don't have an individual spur from the road to their home. Which I would say is quite common - I'm willing to bet many of the boom time housing estates have a water network that goes as the crow flies.

In these circumstances, there is going to need to be some engagement with the homeowners. But when you consider how difficult its been for them installing meters on public property, this is something that they will need approach at a later date.

Water meters install problem

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