How do you perceive the overall work of the Gardai

Hagar · 08-11-2008 12:13am

TheNog wrote: »

We have covered this already in another thread. The reason his numbers were off was cos he had finished duty when he got a call on his mobile about what was thought to be a riot.

Sorry I don't buy it, "I'll leave on my uniform shirt and pants on but I'm exhausted after a hard day's work so I'll just take off my ID numbers. I call shenaniagans on that. A lifelong friend of mine is a prison warden and he has told me that when they have disturbances in the prison they call in the Gardaí who take off their numbers and wade in without fear of being indentified. Now go ahead and dismiss that as "a friend told me". I know this guy 40 years and we have stood shoulder to shoulder in uniform on riot duty with him in the Curragh in the 70's.

metman · 08-11-2008 1:08am

Hagar wrote: »

Sorry I don't buy it, "I'll leave on my uniform shirt and pants on but I'm exhausted after a hard day's work so I'll just take off my ID numbers. I call shenaniagans on that.

Ultimately no one's asking you to. He was found not guilty in a court of law and is still in the police as his actions were deemed justified.

Funnily enough, the last thing I did tonight before leaving work was take off my epaulettes. Do you buy that?

Or maybe it's all a conspiracy.

djtechnics1210 · 08-11-2008 8:46am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Too be honest, most people that 'know the law' dont know **** and watch too much US cop shows. Thats just the reality, Saturday nights I hear that a lot. How I cant arrest him or her because....blah blah blah. .

You cant arrest me gaaauurd because you havent got your hat on. blah blah blah, or my favourite.... you cant arrest me gaaauurd because your are dressed in your normal clothes :rolleyes: ya its called plain cltohes and i just showed you my badge... ya i always have this much c**p on the belt of my jeans. when im not working :rolleyes:

djtechnics1210 · 08-11-2008 8:49am

Hagar wrote: »

Sorry I don't buy it, "I'll leave on my uniform shirt and pants on but I'm exhausted after a hard day's work so I'll just take off my ID numbers. I call shenaniagans on that. A lifelong friend of mine is a prison warden and he has told me that when they have disturbances in the prison they call in the Gardaí who take off their numbers and wade in without fear of being indentified. Now go ahead and dismiss that as "a friend told me". I know this guy 40 years and we have stood shoulder to shoulder in uniform on riot duty with him in the Curragh in the 70's. Don't dare call him a liar.

Prison Service have c&r teams so they actually rarely call out Gardai anymore, they didn't call in Garda public order unit for last riot and that was a bad one, and they never all in uniform Garda for trouble anymore... this used to happen before but has stopped altogether a number of years ago

TheNog · 08-11-2008 6:14pm

Hagar wrote: »

Sorry I don't buy it, "I'll leave on my uniform shirt and pants on but I'm exhausted after a hard day's work so I'll just take off my ID numbers. I call shenaniagans on that.

I take off my shoulder numbers after work and so do many others. We are not required to have them on when off duty. And I go to work in my trousers and shirt cos there is no proper changing facilities in my station.

And again he was cleared off any wrongdoing by a court. If you don;t want to believe the truth then that's your problem I'm afraid.

Hagar wrote: »

A lifelong friend of mine is a prison warden and he has told me that when they have disturbances in the prison they call in the Gardaí who take off their numbers and wade in without fear of being indentified. Now go ahead and dismiss that as "a friend told me". I know this guy 40 years and we have stood shoulder to shoulder in uniform on riot duty with him in the Curragh in the 70's.

Ok so let me get this straight. Scumbags in a prison riot for whatever crappy reason and you are more concerned with Gardai taking off their shoulder numbers!!!

Why?? So scrotes can cause a riot and then complain about getting hit a few times?

Faheywitane · 09-11-2008 2:56am

Firetrap wrote: »

My relative didn't know whose cattle they were. How on earth were they supposed to know? That's why they'd rung the guards in the first place. The cattle have tags on their ears =>Guards could find out from there who owned them.

Yes, I know guards are not farmers and shouldn't be out in their wellies rounding up stray cattle but the fact that they couldn't be bothered to do anything about it is serious in my book. The owner should have been told that their cattle were on the road and could have caused a serious accident. Like i said, it's a busy road these animals were on, not a winding country lane.

I spend a lot of time rounding up cattle. So maybe its just your relative's district??

tallaght01 · 09-11-2008 9:49am

TheNog wrote: »

These are links to yesterdays news all of which involve current or concluding investigations in court. Although I have never seen this amount of Garda related news in one day it does show that high level crime is being tackled.

http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojkfmhau/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojkfkfid/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojkfkfoj/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojkfauql/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojausnid/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojauqlsn/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojauqlid/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojauojcw/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojaueyid/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojaueyey/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojaumhey/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojauaumh/
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1106/ireland/mhidojauauau/

Not a good comparision between Gardai and Doctors/Nurses simply because while it is very apparent Doctors/Nurses save lives and treat ill patients, we also save lives through some of the work we do but it is mostly done in a preventative way that is not so obvious as the medical profession.

Also most people who see us tend to think trouble is not far from them which is an incorrect perception. A good bit of my normal day is spent helping people whether it be giving directions or giving advice to signing forms for them.

I am a man who hates any type of generalisations so I would say that some Gardai are discourteous.

You're the second member who's managed to miss the point regarding the "tackling high level crime" issue. I was defending a poster who said that he would rather see a zero tolerance approach by the gardai....but in the absence of this, he would like high level crime targetted. Karlitosway felt that the logic of his argument, as opposed to the substance was inherently flawed. I disagreed. I thought the logic was sound. i made no comment about the substance. You're refuting bya rguing about the substance. Though I have no idea how you can thinka few newspapers stories can give us proportion of high level crime being tackled, or it's context.

With regard to the comparison between docs/nurses and gardia being not valid.....well that's just not true, especially with your reasoning. We're not talking about scumbags finding gardai to be discourteous (and yes it's "the gardai" that people often find discourteous). We're talking about law abiding people. So, we shouldn't have negative experiences of the gardai. But sadly we do.

TheNog · 09-11-2008 12:53pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

You're the second member who's managed to miss the point regarding the "tackling high level crime" issue. I was defending a poster who said that he would rather see a zero tolerance approach by the gardai....but in the absence of this, he would like high level crime targetted. Karlitosway felt that the logic of his argument, as opposed to the substance was inherently flawed. I disagreed. I thought the logic was sound. i made no comment about the substance. You're refuting bya rguing about the substance. Though I have no idea how you can thinka few newspapers stories can give us proportion of high level crime being tackled, or it's context.

Maybe its just me but this is about as clear as mud to me.

I have taken high level crime as to be murder, drugs smuggling etc. or are talking about crime that occurs everyday such as theft, criminal damage etc?

As for a zero tolerance approach, we do operate that sort of approach with people who continuously break the law such as shoplifters, unauthorised taking, to murder etc. We do not have zero tolerance across the board, and this is where discretion is used, simply because honest decent people would be prosecuted for a minor indiscretion whether it was meant or not. I don't see how that can help society tbh.

tallaght01 wrote: »

With regard to the comparison between docs/nurses and gardia being not valid.....well that's just not true, especially with your reasoning.

There is a huge difference between these professions but we do share some comparisions such as high stress levels when attempting to save lives and long working hours at times (sometimes for us).

However doctors/nurse although are faced with violent people do not have to tackle violent people, nor do doctors/nurses come after you when you don't pay a bill nor do they take away a persons freedom nor do they investigate people or prosecute.

So again do doctors and nurses perform well while under pressure and still remain polite? Yes they do. Do Gardai operate the same way? Yes most do but we operate in situations where we have violent people, if first to a RTC we have no support until EMT or FB arrive etc

tallaght01 wrote: »

We're not talking about scumbags finding gardai to be discourteous (and yes it's "the gardai" that people often find discourteous). We're talking about law abiding people. So, we shouldn't have negative experiences of the gardai. But sadly we do.

I wasn't talking about scrotes at all. I was talking about people who never or rarely have any contact with us.

I brought up the discourteous bit being one of our biggest problem. It is and I don't think anyone will argue with that but on occasion even I have had difficulty remaining courteous to someone on occasion when you see a person risk their own and others lives for a stupid reason.

A case in point would be traffic related such as one fella I stopped when he overtook 7 cars all at once (the last two cars on a bend). It is very hard to remain polite when you see that when you have seen bad RTCs.

metman · 09-11-2008 2:19pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

But doctors and nurses constantly get rated as the most trusted professions. I think they have a good rep as they TEND to be courteous, even under horrific conditions.

Hmmm. Isn't it equally true general dissatisfaction levels with the medical profession have increased, as has work for medical negligence practitioners? Its a growth industry now, isn't it?

junior docs and nurses take a lot of grief in work, due to the high stress. But, when everyone is calm and reasoned, you don't get many people giving out about those professionals in the way you do about gardai.

I'd disagree with you there. Having had personal experience of how family members have been misdiagnosed, and mistreated whilst under the care of medical 'professionals', I can attest to the existence of poor care levels, poor service, rude and patronising doctors and ignorant uncaring nurses within the health service. But that won't come as a shock to many, will it?

Personally I wouldn't put medics on a pedestal as regards courtesy or service, not by a long shot, but at the same time I don't believe, nor suggest, that all medical professionals are 'the same', and afford the public a crap service. Unlike what often happens with the Police on account of individuals with agendas and axes to grind.

AlekSmart · 09-11-2008 2:22pm

I cant see much prospect of the opposing sides in this thread agreeing to disagree or anything else.

The entire RoboCop episode was in reality far more due to a total failure of high level Garda Command and Control than any actions of an individual Garda.

I`m sure the members posting here might be able to confirm it,but my understanding of that days events point to the virtual absence of high level command decisions or even intelligence on what was occurring "In Town"

In essence individual Gardai from a wide range of locations/stations were being given a rapidly changing picture of the situation with little or no central command decisions being fed through......."Yer on yer own lads,get stuck in" followed at a leisurely distance by....."Ah here now....who told yiz to do that...not me!".

What particularly incenced me was the manner in which rank and file Gardai were the ONLY ones called to account for the forces shortcomings that day.
AFAIK No senior Officer or for that matter Department of Justice official was ever asked publicly to account for the shortcomings which finally surfaced that day.

The only official response which remains with me was some comments by Michael McDowell in which the fellow mused about what type of Policing the "People of Ireland" wanted.
He felt quite queasy at the possibility of us having a paramilitary CRS style force,
He was more content that we remain with the "Civic Guard" ethic in which close local relations and a mutual regard would mean nobody would dare say Boo to a nice Policeman....

At the end of the day,the essential reason for ANY Police force is to ensure we ALL attend to our civic duty to obey the law.
They are not there to be nice cuddly figures incapable of rough stuff.
Like it or not,without a viable effective Police force we would have to resort to self-policing just as the Banking system did with self-regulation...and how many people now believe that THAT principle was successful

Odysseus · 09-11-2008 4:52pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

A, As I said already, People in hoodies passing items to eachother isnt always drug dealing. The media and passerby say it is but they are either guessing or just going by general perception. Besides, you cant know its heroin for a fact. Most drug dealing on the quays are not 'illegal drugs' as per the Misuse of drugs Act 77/84. But prescription drugs used as uppers and downers for which they cannot be arrested. Of course it happens but lets be honest, out of every 24 hours how much of it are you actually watching? Yo dont know that these people arent being arrested or that some of the buyers arent drug unit Gardai.

As a point of interest I'm a tad confused by your post, I'm aware of how difficult it is to actually get evidence of a person dealing, I spend my day working in a meth clinic. The biggest problem for us is the abuse of the various forms of benzos that you are talking about.

My understanding is that POM prescription only materials which benzos are are covered by the Misue of Drugs Act. I know that it can be difficult to prove on the street that the benzos in the persons pocket wheren't prescribed to them. But for example can you not lift and charge somebody with a possession charge if you found a ten loose Valium in the pocket? Is it a case of you having to prove that they where not prescribed to the person or a case of the person having to prove that they were if you get my drift.

tallaght01 · 09-11-2008 5:38pm

TheNog wrote: »

Maybe its just me but this is about as clear as mud to me.

I have taken high level crime as to be murder, drugs smuggling etc. or are talking about crime that occurs everyday such as theft, criminal damage etc?

As for a zero tolerance approach, we do operate that sort of approach with people who continuously break the law such as shoplifters, unauthorised taking, to murder etc. We do not have zero tolerance across the board, and this is where discretion is used, simply because honest decent people would be prosecuted for a minor indiscretion whether it was meant or not. I don't see how that can help society tbh.

There is a huge difference between these professions but we do share some comparisions such as high stress levels when attempting to save lives and long working hours at times (sometimes for us).

However doctors/nurse although are faced with violent people do not have to tackle violent people, nor do doctors/nurses come after you when you don't pay a bill nor do they take away a persons freedom nor do they investigate people or prosecute.

So again do doctors and nurses perform well while under pressure and still remain polite? Yes they do. Do Gardai operate the same way? Yes most do but we operate in situations where we have violent people, if first to a RTC we have no support until EMT or FB arrive etc

I wasn't talking about scrotes at all. I was talking about people who never or rarely have any contact with us.

I brought up the discourteous bit being one of our biggest problem. It is and I don't think anyone will argue with that but on occasion even I have had difficulty remaining courteous to someone on occasion when you see a person risk their own and others lives for a stupid reason.

A case in point would be traffic related such as one fella I stopped when he overtook 7 cars all at once (the last two cars on a bend). It is very hard to remain polite when you see that when you have seen bad RTCs.

Read over the posts, and maybe you can try to work out what I was talkiong about. karlito was arguing about one poster's logic, when it was his own logic that was at faulty, regardless of who's point was right in substance.

Back to the comparison. Horrible people are nasty to the gardai and the gardai are nasty back. I don't agree with that way of working, but I understand it.

But the people we're talking about are normal people. Normal people are exposed to doctors and nurses all the time. Sometimes we win, and sometimes we loose. Often we are shouted at and abused, and sometimes assaulted. Yet there is very much a culture within medicine that you keep your cool and stay friendly at all times. That seems to be as culture that's not seen in the gardai. If I shouted at a patient, one of my colleagues would be likely enough to say something to me, or even report me. If I was very junior, there would most definitely be a quiet word from my senior. It happened to a guy in work last week.

Doctors and nurses just tend to be friendlier to people. Some are not frinedly to, say, the junkies. I hate that, but I accept it's a problem.

But look at the people who are not rude or aggressive. Normal everyday punters. Normal everyday punters tend to have a good opinon of their healthcare workers, whether things go right or wrong (with many exceptions of course).
But when normal everyday people have an experience with the gardai (ie when the gardai aren't arresting them or investigating them) they seem to come away with negative feelings a LOT.

I don't buy the generalisations that get made about a lot of professions. BUt too many people I know have had bad experiences with the gardai. Too many good people. I, myself, have had too many bad experiences with the gardai.

I'm not an authority on the gardai, but I do wonder why so many people have a negative opinion of them, when compared with other professions.

Eru · 09-11-2008 5:56pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

Read over the posts, and maybe you can try to work out what I was talkiong about. karlito was arguing about one poster's logic, when it was his own logic that was at faulty, regardless of who's point was right in substance.

Back to the comparison. Horrible people are nasty to the gardai and the gardai are nasty back. I don't agree with that way of working, but I understand it.

But the people we're talking about are normal people. Normal people are exposed to doctors and nurses all the time. Sometimes we win, and sometimes we loose. Often we are shouted at and abused, and sometimes assaulted. Yet there is very much a culture within medicine that you keep your cool and stay friendly at all times. That seems to be as culture that's not seen in the gardai. If I shouted at a patient, one of my colleagues would be likely enough to say something to me, or even report me. If I was very junior, there would most definitely be a quiet word from my senior. It happened to a guy in work last week.

Doctors and nurses just tend to be friendlier to people. Some are not frinedly to, say, the junkies. I hate that, but I accept it's a problem.

But look at the people who are not rude or aggressive. Normal everyday punters. Normal everyday punters tend to have a good opinon of their healthcare workers, whether things go right or wrong (with many exceptions of course).
But when normal everyday people have an experience with the gardai (ie when the gardai aren't arresting them or investigating them) they seem to come away with negative feelings a LOT.

I don't buy the generalisations that get made about a lot of professions. BUt too many people I know have had bad experiences with the gardai. Too many good people. I, myself, have had too many bad experiences with the gardai.

I'm not an authority on the gardai, but I do wonder why so many people have a negative opinion of them, when compared with other professions.

Simple put, Doctors make people better, firemen put out fires, gardai give tickets.

As for the original, I was merely pointing out that Gardai DO tackle serious crime therefore the posters opinion that we ONLY deal with minor things was incorrect and following on from that, his view of zero tolerance at work.

In regards doctors dealing with people, doctors get complaints, they act out of line, commit crimes, negligence and are commonly refered to as some of the most arrogant, abnoxious people known so please, off the high horse.

Now personally, I like my local GP and the docs that have treated me in hospital have been very nice as well but I did have to look around before I found a GP I felt comfortable with and liked. I have also had negative dealings with medical staff while escorting a prisoner.

I have been left sitting for hours with someone that was trying to kill himself, sitting for hours with someone that wasnt a prisoner but I had kindly escorted at the request of the ambulance crew and lo and behold, when I announced I was now leaving, suddenly hes next up.

On another occasion we were put in a room, left there with a screaming prisoner who had attacked a dfb ambo man. I went to close the door because I figured his antics were annoying and distressing other patients, guess what the nurse said? "Dont want anyone to see you beating him again just hear the screams?" Now, how do you think that made me feel? The other side is a doctor came in, saw us trying to hold the guy down (while he spat blood at us) and apologised that we had been left there. He then fixed the guy up and let us get the guy back to a cell.

So please, we could vent at your profession. We could allow murmers and whispers to become truth about doctors but we dont. We go by evidence, facts and above all, understanding of the job and what you deal with.

Also, small matter but when someone is abusive to you, you dont have to be aggressive, you call us to do it for you as per my signature.

Odysseus,
I will PM you with that one as I dont want to go off topic

tallaght01 · 09-11-2008 6:05pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Simple put, Doctors make people better, firemen put out fires, gardai give tickets.

As for the original, I was merely pointing out that Gardai DO tackle serious crime therefore the posters opinion that we ONLY deal with minor things was incorrect and following on from that, his view of zero tolerance at work.

In regards doctors dealing with people, doctors get complaints, they act out of line, commit crimes, negligence and are commonly refered to as some of the most arrogant, abnoxious people known so please, off the high horse.

Now personally, I like my local GP and the docs that have treated me in hospital have been very nice as well but I did have to look around before I found a GP I felt comfortable with and liked. I have also had negative dealings with medical staff while escorting a prisoner.

I have been left sitting for hours with someone that was trying to kill himself, sitting for hours with someone that wasnt a prisoner but I had kindly escorted at the request of the ambulance crew and lo and behold, when I announced I was now leaving, suddenly hes next up.

On another occasion we were put in a room, left there with a screaming prisoner who had attacked a dfb ambo man. I went to close the door because I figured his antics were annoying and distressing other patients, guess what the nurse said? "Dont want anyone to see you beating him again just hear the screams?" Now, how do you think that made me feel? The other side is a doctor came in, saw us trying to hold the guy down (while he spat blood at us) and apologised that we had been left there. He then fixed the guy up and let us get the guy back to a cell.

So please, we could vent at your profession. We could allow murmers and whispers to become truth about doctors but we dont. We go by evidence, facts and above all, understanding of the job and what you deal with.

Also, small matter but when someone is abusive to you, you dont have to be aggressive, you call us to do it for you as per my signature.

I don't know what kind of response times you have, but I have never once in my career called a copper. I've used in-house security a few times. But we just get on with it.

The point it, some people don't like doctors and nurses. That's fine. Of coursethat's true. There are some tools in every job.

But if you look at public surveys, healthcare professionals come out top in a lot of them with regard to public trust.

But too many people I know don't trust the gardai. These are not people getting tickets. These are people who have more mundane experiences with the gardai. These are my very quiet shy sister who was kindly driving me into town, when some copper pulled us over and absoloutely roasted her for ignoring some sign. When she timidly pointed out in her shocked voice that the sign was no longer there, he just said "ah go on with you, then", still being pretty rude.

It's my best mate who was driving me home from a mate's house one night when we were randomly pulled over. He was told to get out of the car,a nd questioned aggressively "how much were you drinking tonight?". When he denied drinking they were all "ahh come on, just tell us". Aggression aggression aggression. These are 2 random examples. I gave more in an earlier thread. Both really sensible drivers. Both never been in trouble before with anyone.

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but when these things happen again and again it just makes you think.

eroo · 09-11-2008 7:29pm

After work last night, could I just make a suggestion for any Gardai here doing public order at matches? SMILE, please!! The older Gardai are sound and approachable, and are chatty. But some of the younger Gardai looked like they had just been told off and were sulking!! Maybe they were GAA heads who didn't want to be at a rugby match!

IRISH RAIL · 09-11-2008 8:35pm

I just wanted to mention most people here will have had both good and bad views of the gardai, while people will always remember the bad and forget the good.
I voted no because of the images from corrib of a gaurd pushing a guy into a ditch way out of line. on the other hand I know how tied up they can get three squad cars were called to a shop yesterday after the panic alarm was set off turned out it was a guy who was barred from the shop the security gaurd didnt even do anything. a simple call to the station would have been a lot more useful. I think a lot of people dont know the enormous amount of stupid calls the gaurds still get now I have occasionaly listened to the gaurds radios and i find it amazing that they still get called for kids playing football on the street. I dont blame the individuals for my lack of trust I blame the management.
what happened to the donegal gaurds who planted a bomb to make themselves look good ?
what would happen to me if I did it ?

deadwood · 10-11-2008 1:30am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

what happened to the donegal gaurds who planted a bomb to make themselves look good ?
what would happen to me if I did it ?

Well, if your username reflects your occupation, it wouldn't have gone off in time!

deadwood · 10-11-2008 3:02am

Ooops. Wrong meeting. Sorry!:D

Terrontress · 10-11-2008 12:34pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I went to close the door because I figured his antics were annoying and distressing other patients, guess what the nurse said? "Dont want anyone to see you beating him again just hear the screams?"

You repeatedly miss the point. The topic is not called "Do the Gardai do a good job?" or "Are the Gardai unnecessarily aggressive". It's about whether people have faith in the Gardai. You are repeatedly supporting the argument that the public have little or no faith. The healthcare professional in question obviously didn't. This is someone who one would expect to be educated and professional yet she still behaved that way to someone who was trying to do their best in a difficult situation. The lack of trust is widespread. Everyone deserves a police service that they can trust, including habitual criminals. The serving members here have pointed to reasons why this trust is absent. It's a mistrust of the force as a whole. Not the individuals in it.

TheNog · 10-11-2008 1:15pm

First things first HOORRRAAAHHHH this is now the highest posted thread in the ES forum :pac::D;):rolleyes

:eek::cool::P:(:mad::o:p:)

Now for serious business.

We can all agree that there are people out there who distrust us in general through bad experiences they have had. Fair enough. Some people have genuine and direct reasons or involvement, some have heard from a friend of a friend, some have heard stories in pubs and being unable to make up their own minds, follow the opinions of others and lastly there are people who have been prosecuted etc etc and feel hard done by.

So the question is: going forward how do those who don't trust us believe we can overcome this?
Also what avenue would you prefer to take in combatting these bad experiences?

Discourteousy (sp??) is one aspect we need to tackle.

What else is there?

Terrontress · 10-11-2008 1:45pm

The "closed shop" mindset. In another thread, someone asked where the camera control centre is and got the response "that's for us to know, not you". The centre which I am familiar with is on O'Connell Street and has a big glass window so people can get to see that work is being done in there to keep them safe.

Also, I think that peoples' concerns need to be taken more seriously. Budget constraints permitting, if someone wants a guard to come out to them, regardless of how minor the guard thinks the crime is then someone should come out.

The image of the Gardai is taking a terrible knock by having speed checks on roads where few accidents occur and where road speed limits are too low. Shooting fish in a barrel. If they are being that underhand in speed checks then this lack of trustworthyness probably carries through to other areas.

TheNog · 10-11-2008 2:06pm

Terrontress wrote: »

The "closed shop" mindset. In another thread, someone asked where the camera control centre is and got the response "that's for us to know, not you". The centre which I am familiar with is on O'Connell Street and has a big glass window so people can get to see that work is being done in there to keep them safe.

Ok so we are going for Accountability and Transparency (to a certain extent). Big buzzword around the AGS for the past year or so but if I'm honest will take awhile to implement properly. Tbh I don't think management have a full idea of how accountable we need to be yet but we will get there. Garda Inspectorate are pushing it along with the Mahon Report too.

Kudos to the Inspectorate. They have done more for the AGS in the last 2-3 years than the AGS has done for itself in 10 years.

Terrontress wrote: »

Also, I think that peoples' concerns need to be taken more seriously. Budget constraints permitting, if someone wants a guard to come out to them, regardless of how minor the guard thinks the crime is then someone should come out.

I have seen this happen before in my 1yr service but honestly it happened maybe twice. Mix up more than anything else but those calls were received with fullest apologises and attended to straight away.

Terrontress wrote: »

The image of the Gardai is taking a terrible knock by having speed checks on roads where few accidents occur and where road speed limits are too low. Shooting fish in a barrel. If they are being that underhand in speed checks then this lack of trustworthyness probably carries through to other areas.

NNNNNNOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

There was me having respect for you, maybe even liking you a bit. Until now. I truly hate that comment above because it shows people contradict themselves. You say don't do speed checks on roads where there is a low speed limit or no accidents but when there is an accident you will ask where were the Gardai and why weren't they conducting speed checks there.

This is called Proactive Policing.

Even though there may have never been an accident on a particular road, we would like to keep it that way. Also we do get residents calling us due to speeding cars by their house and of course there are accidents on roads but most people don't see these accidents even if it happens outside their house.

I can also dispel the myth that Gardai are revenue generators. If you ask you will find out that most Gardai don't give a continental f00k if the government get money out of it or not. When I prosecute someone for speeding I am hoping that person will slow down to an acceptable level so as not to be a cause of a RTC.
Simple as, no conspiracy here.

deadwood · 10-11-2008 3:30pm

TheNog wrote: »

Now for serious business.

So the question is: going forward....

What else is there?

Stop using phrases like "going forward":D.
Good thread. Well done on not letting it descend into a bashing.

TheNog · 10-11-2008 3:37pm

deadwood wrote: »

Stop using phrases like "going forward":D.
Good thread. Well done on not letting it descend into a bashing.

stop moving the goal posts :pac:

metman · 10-11-2008 3:49pm

Terrontress wrote: »

Also, I think that peoples' concerns need to be taken more seriously. Budget constraints permitting, if someone wants a guard to come out to them, regardless of how minor the guard thinks the crime is then someone should come out.

In some jurisdictions police officers are already in agreement with you on this idea, and I don't think its a bad thing personally.

andrewh5 · 10-11-2008 4:05pm

TheNog wrote: »

I can also dispel the myth that Gardai are revenue generators. If you ask you will find out that most Gardai don't give a continental f00k if the government get money out of it or not. When I prosecute someone for speeding I am hoping that person will slow down to an acceptable level so as not to be a cause of a RTC.
Simple as, no conspiracy here.

So explain then why the speed traps in Stepaside are ALWAYS on the way OUT of the village NOT the way IN? If that isn't geared up to revenue generating then I am a dutchman. Furthermore speed per-se does NOT cause accidents. Inappropriate speed does however and that can mean driving at the legal limit past a school as the kids come out.

BTW, when are the Gardaí going to clamp down on illegal use of front fog lights and unaccompanied L drivers? I have seen no evidence of either.

angelfire9 · 10-11-2008 4:51pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

Furthermore speed per-se does NOT cause accidents.

You're kidding right?
Speed does not cause accidents?
Of course it does, driving too fast for road conditions (whether it be a bad road surface or bad weather) causes accidents
Flying down a bad road at 120km per hour and a dog runs across the road in front of you you swerve to avoid and hit the ditch... that's an accident caused by speeding, if speeding doesn't cause accidents why do the RSA and AGS spend so much time trying to reduce speed on our roads

Certainly there are other factors that cause accidents including driver fatigue, driving under the influence, careless driving but speed is a massive factor in RTA's in ireland

TheNog · 10-11-2008 5:15pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

So explain then why the speed traps in Stepaside are ALWAYS on the way OUT of the village NOT the way IN? If that isn't geared up to revenue generating then I am a dutchman. Furthermore speed per-se does NOT cause accidents. Inappropriate speed does however and that can mean driving at the legal limit past a school as the kids come out.

BTW, when are the Gardaí going to clamp down on illegal use of front fog lights and unaccompanied L drivers? I have seen no evidence of either.

Andrew this has been done to death on the Motors forum and if I remember correctly you contributed to those discussions but seemingly not learned from I have said in those discussions about safety of the guard and other road users, knowing the collision hotspots etc. If you want a reasonable answer then you are going to have to understand the reasons why checks are done where they are.

Tbh I don't know Stepaside at all so I cannot comment on why speed checks are done where they are and your post does not give me anything to work with.

Lastly I agree with ye that inappropriate speed is one of the biggest killer but inappropriate speed for a bad driver may not be inappropriate for a good driver. But how are Gardai supposed to know the bad drivers from the good drivers?

As with foglights - they are one of my pet hates but I can't imagine many judges putting up with Gardai bringing people to court over its use. If it was classed as a fixed penalty offence then happy days.

angelfire9 wrote: »

You're kidding right?
Speed does not cause accidents?
Of course it does, driving too fast for road conditions (whether it be a bad road surface or bad weather) causes accidents
Flying down a bad road at 120km per hour and a dog runs across the road in front of you you swerve to avoid and hit the ditch... that's an accident caused by speeding, if speeding doesn't cause accidents why do the RSA and AGS spend so much time trying to reduce speed on our roads

Certainly there are other factors that cause accidents including driver fatigue, driving under the influence, careless driving but speed is a massive factor in RTA's in ireland

+1

No need for people to be "Government Donators".

deadwood · 10-11-2008 5:28pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

So explain then why the speed traps in Stepaside are ALWAYS on the way OUT of the village NOT the way IN? If that isn't geared up to revenue generating then I am a dutchman. Furthermore speed per-se does NOT cause accidents. Inappropriate speed does however and that can mean driving at the legal limit past a school as the kids come out.

Goede middag.
Flogged to death on motors threads.

A Garda stopped a driver for speeding. The disgruntled driver complained about the Garda singling him out while other drivers were zooming past.

"Ever gone fishing?" asked the guard.

"A few times, why?" replied the driver.

"Ever caught all the fish?"

eroo · 10-11-2008 7:22pm

How can views be changed? Imo, make it so that Community Gardai don't just work mostly in 'trouble spots'. If they get involved with everyone, they can change views. I've seen Community Gardai bringing busloads of kids to 'fun camps' etc. Why not do this across the board, rather than for kids just in 'disadvantaged' areas?

metman · 10-11-2008 7:31pm

eroo wrote: »

How can views be changed? Imo, make it so that Community Gardai don't just work mostly in 'trouble spots'. If they get involved with everyone, they can change views. I've seen Community Gardai bringing busloads of kids to 'fun camps' etc. Why not do this across the board, rather than for kids just in 'disadvantaged' areas?

I work as a local officer, my remit, aside from regular 999 response, is to address local issues and be accountable to the people living in the area I look after. I don't take kids to fun camps, and I don't know any officers who do. As far as I'm concerned that has nothing to do with police work, and if there are cops doing that, then maybe they need to take a closer look at their role and the services available to them.

As a 'community officer' police officers should be looking at crime reduction strategy, often this means getting locals engaged, and more often than not this means engaging local youths. As a community copper the role is to facilitate this, i.e utilise local services to do so. It is not the role of the police to personally entertain local kids....well not where I am anyways.

daveharnett · 10-11-2008 7:32pm

Since the traffic enforcement can of worms has been opened, I'd like to weigh in with my gripe. There is a whole slew of illegal (or just bad) behaviour which is essentially undetectable for a static checkpoint or a marked traffic corps car. While the situation may be better in Dublin than in Limerick, I have never seen (or heard of) an unmarked car pulling somebody over for acting the tw*t.

In summary, I'd like to see that dangerous driving OTHER than speeding/drinking is being enforced:
-Failure to indicate
-Failure to yield
-Poor Lane Discipline/'Cutting Up'
-Tailgating
-Dangerous Overtaking
-Driving without consideration
etc ad nauseum

metman · 10-11-2008 7:44pm

daveharnett wrote: »

Since the traffic enforcement can of worms has been opened, I'd like to weigh in with my gripe. There is a whole slew of illegal (or just bad) behaviour which is essentially undetectable for a static checkpoint or a marked traffic corps car. While the situation may be better in Dublin than in Limerick, I have never seen (or heard of) an unmarked car pulling somebody over for acting the tw*t.

In summary, I'd like to see that dangerous driving OTHER than speeding/drinking is being enforced:
-Failure to indicate
-Failure to yield
-Poor Lane Discipline/'Cutting Up'
-Tailgating
-Dangerous Overtaking
-Driving without consideration
etc ad nauseum

Dave, every serving copper would agree with you. We all want more dedicated traffic cops on the roads. That's the only way you can tackle the issues you raise. No gatso cam can detect generally sh*t driving or inconsiderate driving. Its a quality of life issue is it not? More than that it can lead to accidents. However the powers that be will pay lip service to the issues you raise, but will they allocate cash for training and equipment? If you feel strongly enough about this I would encourage you to speak to your local TD. This is the only way AGS will be allocated more funding.

TheNog · 10-11-2008 7:44pm

daveharnett wrote: »

Since the traffic enforcement can of worms has been opened, I'd like to weigh in with my gripe. There is a whole slew of illegal (or just bad) behaviour which is essentially undetectable for a static checkpoint or a marked traffic corps car. While the situation may be better in Dublin than in Limerick, I have never seen (or heard of) an unmarked car pulling somebody over for acting the tw*t.

In summary, I'd like to see that dangerous driving OTHER than speeding/drinking is being enforced:
-Failure to indicate
-Failure to yield
-Poor Lane Discipline/'Cutting Up'
-Tailgating
-Dangerous Overtaking
-Driving without consideration
etc ad nauseum

Maybe some sort of phone number which is available to public to ring and report traffic violations that they watch everyday

Traffic Watch Goes Nationwide on Lo-Call 1890 205 805

On Wednesday 18th February 2004, Garda 'Traffic Watch' went Nationwide. Initially established as a pilot scheme in the South Eastern Region in November 2001, it is now extended to cover the whole of the State.

Traffic Watch is an initiative established by An Garda Síochána to empower road users to play a proactive role in the enforcement of traffic legislation.

It allows road users to contact the Gardaí by using a lo-cost telephone number when they witness aberrant behaviour by other road users. It focuses on the traffic offences that are related to road safety such as speeding, dangerous or careless driving and driving while intoxicated.

Since the establishment of the Pilot Scheme, 3,800 calls have been received from the Public. Arising from these and subsequent investigations over 1,000 drivers have been formally cautioned in relation to their behaviour on the roads. There have also been 30 prosecutions in the courts.

The Scheme is supported by the National Roads Authority who have provided traffic Watch signs on all national roads. The signs indicate the Lo-Call telephone number.

Call centres have now been established in Dublin, Thomastown, Tuam, Birr, Mallow and Carrick-on-Shannon.

Callers are requested to make statements to Gardaí at a later stage. If a complainant declines to make a statement the Gardaí may alternatively caution and issue appropriate adice to the driver who is the subject of the complaint.

The Traffic Watch Number is 1890 205 805.

Turner · 10-11-2008 7:44pm

daveharnett wrote: »

Since the traffic enforcement can of worms has been opened, I'd like to weigh in with my gripe. There is a whole slew of illegal (or just bad) behaviour which is essentially undetectable for a static checkpoint or a marked traffic corps car. While the situation may be better in Dublin than in Limerick, I have never seen (or heard of) an unmarked car pulling somebody over for acting the tw*t.

In summary, I'd like to see that dangerous driving OTHER than speeding/drinking is being enforced:
-Failure to indicate
-Failure to yield
-Poor Lane Discipline/'Cutting Up'
-Tailgating
-Dangerous Overtaking
-Driving without consideration
etc ad nauseum

As far as i know alll traffic corps units have unmarked cars. All of the stations i have worked in anyway or visited have unamrked cars.

Regular gardai also have access to detective branch cars (unmarked).

All of your above points are actually already enforced and come under the remit of the fixed penalty notice. Not "failing to indicate" though.

deadwood · 10-11-2008 7:46pm

metman wrote: »

As a 'community officer' police officers should be looking at crime reduction strategy, often this means getting locals engaged, and more often than not this means engaging local youths. As a community copper the role is to facilitate this, i.e utilise local services to do so. It is not the role of the police to personally entertain local kids....well not where I am anyways.

It's quite common for gardai here to take groups of kids on day trips or to visit them at their schools for a bit of crack with the sirens and cynbins. Student Gardai also do placements where this is common - summer camps, youthreach and others. Enjoyable for all involved.

Eroos' suggestion, above, that kids from all backgrounds be accommodated is a good one.

However, the Ross O'Carroll Kellys and Lorraine "Red Kye-sythe-bynde-rynde-abytes" Keanes of this world aren't too willing to let little Fiachla and Ocras share a bus with children who live in estates rather then own one.

metman · 10-11-2008 7:56pm

deadwood wrote: »

It's quite common for gardai here to take groups of kids on day trips or to visit them at their schools for a bit of crack with the sirens and cynbins. Student Gardai also do placements where this is common - summer camps, youthreach and others. Enjoyable for all involved.

Police here do school visits and do everything from sirens to gun talks from members of armed response.

However I fail to see the point in police officers actually taking kids on day trips. There's a multitude of local services, local authority/civil servants available to do that. IMO not really the job of police to be taking kids on day trips.

As for student placements; again, am all for probationers getting involved, but ultimately they're not training to be youthreach workers, or summer-camp workers.

The public pay us to enforce the law and to tackle crime and criminals. As a community copper, local people want me to tackle crime and as a result I spend my time on uniform patrol, or executing warrants for drugs etc. I doubt people would be too happy were I to start leading school tours to Butlins.

deadwood · 10-11-2008 8:02pm

eroo wrote: »

How can views be changed? Imo, make it so that Community Gardai don't just work mostly in 'trouble spots'. If they get involved with everyone, they can change views. I've seen Community Gardai bringing busloads of kids to 'fun camps' etc. Why not do this across the board, rather than for kids just in 'disadvantaged' areas?

There's a similar train of thought in schools. Principals and teachers spend a huge amount of their time disciplining and controlling a few unruly pupils.
The majority, who are there to learn and get somewhere in life, get little attention. (Let's not go down a corporal punishment debate)

Not fair, but that's democracy.

deadwood · 10-11-2008 8:04pm

metman wrote: »

There's a multitude of local services, local authority/civil servants available to do that.

Yeah, here they're called Guards!:D

metman · 10-11-2008 8:15pm

deadwood wrote: »

Yeah, here they're called Guards!:D

Nonsense. I'm sure you have access to the same limited services we have access to here.

It is not the role of the Police to be taking kiddies on day trips. I doubt any tax payer wants the police to spend their time doing this. Similarly I doubt any police officer joined up to take kids on day trips.

Or maybe I'm a cop that's completely un-pc....:rolleyes:

Ian Beale · 10-11-2008 8:22pm

TheNog wrote: »

Topic of discussion - Do you trust the Gardai to do the job that is necessary to protect the public and investigate crime?

Trust them?Yes, only thing I wish that could be changed is their resources they have a tough job as it is and instead of getting an increase the government cuts their budget,how smart of them.

deadwood · 10-11-2008 8:23pm

I agree with you to a large extent, metman.

Just pointing out what is done here under the "Community Policing" umerella,ella,ella.

Anything that promotes good relations between gardai and young people who can see and talk face to face to a ocal guard is to be encouraged in my view.

The man on the beat covers all this by the very nature of the duty.

I would expect that all the non-member posters here would like to see a uniform guard on foot patrol in their area.

lehanemore · 10-11-2008 8:25pm

metman wrote: »

However I fail to see the point in police officers actually taking kids on day trips./......../. IMO not really the job of police to be taking kids on day trips.

I think it's so the kids will get to know a Garda, so that further down the line they have someone they can talk to if they find themselves going in the wrong direction, or report something to someone they feel they can trust.

TheNog · 10-11-2008 8:34pm

Many Community Gardai are involved in the Rapid Programme which is a Garda budgeted nationwide programme. The day to day running of the programme is operated by people with the necessary qualifications but a member (usually Community Garda) sits on the Board of Management. The local Superintendent will overall control of the budget. This programme operates to give youths who have caused trouble a chance to learn new skills such as computers etc and life skills to enable them to turn around their lives. On occasion day or weekend trips are organised and they use the community bus to transport instead of using a hired coach to save on costs.

Youths in the Rapid programme are referred on from the Juvenile Liasion Scheme.

The JLO has had great success since its inception with a something like 90% success rate towards non reoffending. The Rapid programme is another step for those to keep out of a life of crime.

metman · 10-11-2008 8:48pm

lehanemore wrote: »

I think it's so the kids will get to know a Garda, so that further down the line they have someone they can talk to if they find themselves going in the wrong direction, or report something to someone they feel they can trust.

Yeah I get that. Ordinarily most youths that are involved in wrong doing will get to know many police officers on a casual basis, and will be on close terms with the local copper. I still don't see why this would justify a police officer taking kids on a day trip. Sorry, but as a policeman I have better things to do with my time. Mostly this involves tackling crime.

There are plenty of partner agencies that can take problem kids on day trips.

Is this how you want your tax spent? Local police taking kids on day trips? Because it aint what local people want me doing here. Most people in the area I work want me arresting offenders and putting in doors on drugs dealers.

Terrontress · 10-11-2008 9:40pm

metman wrote: »

I work as a local officer, my remit, aside from regular 999 response, is to address local issues and be accountable to the people living in the area I look after. I don't take kids to fun camps, and I don't know any officers who do. As far as I'm concerned that has nothing to do with police work, and if there are cops doing that, then maybe they need to take a closer look at their role and the services available to them.

As a 'community officer' police officers should be looking at crime reduction strategy, often this means getting locals engaged, and more often than not this means engaging local youths. As a community copper the role is to facilitate this, i.e utilise local services to do so. It is not the role of the police to personally entertain local kids....well not where I am anyways.

Are you a PCSO?

metman · 10-11-2008 10:56pm

I wish I was; easy money.

I'm a Police Officer. I currently serve on a response team but am also tasked as a neighbourhood officer (community officer).

eroo · 10-11-2008 11:02pm

metman wrote: »

Sorry, but as a policeman I have better things to do with my time. Mostly this involves tackling crime.

There are plenty of partner agencies that can take problem kids on day trips.

By bringing kids on days out, they get to know, trust and like their local Gardai. This could be the difference between they getting involved in positive activities as a youth, or they being in court several times before their 17th birthday. So, if bringing kids out on day trips diverts some kids from a life of convictions after convictions, then it is not a waste imo.

As regards your second point above; it isn't those partner agencies who deal with local communities and attempt to crack down on criminal activity. The police do this, so crime prevention through Youth Scheme's can only benefit the police/Gardai, as it may divert kids in local communities away from a life of crime.

And as I already said, Community Gardai/officers should be involved with all kids, rather than just problem kids.

Dyr · 11-11-2008 12:02am

Quite frankly, I dont the trust the gardai as an organisation at all. I've seen too many dodgy events and know too many people who have had even worse experiences. And this isnt about issuing speeding tickets or not being polite or such nonsense, this is fundamental issues of integrity.

Hopefully the ombudsman will change that over time.

metman · 11-11-2008 12:31am

Bambi wrote: »

Quite frankly, I dont the trust the gardai as an organisation at all. I've seen too many dodgy events and know too many people who have had even worse experiences. And this isnt about issuing speeding tickets or not being polite or such nonsense, this is fundamental issues of integrity.

Hopefully the ombudsman will change that over time.

I can fully relate to your viewing people that have had bad experiences and that know people who have met with people who have been really badly treated. I fully respect what you're saying. Particularly when I know someone who met someone once that thinks he knew someone many years back that was a Guard, or maybe a lifeguard, but nonetheless he did something that ye should all be ashamed of!

Stop picking on the taxpayer for god sake. That was the lesson.

How do you perceive the overall work of the Gardai

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