Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

ted1 · 06-01-2015 1:53pm

How about they allow camera footage be used for issuing fines etc, we could drop up the station on Fridays and show them a weeks worth of fine material. Running lights, talking on phones, driving in bus lanes etc parking in cycle paths

Chips Lovell · 06-01-2015 1:55pm

Falcon L wrote: »

I would consider it the responsibility of any road user to make themselves as visible as possible.

...

Maybe it's just me.

It's not just you. There's plenty who take the victim blaming approach.

If I'm driving in daylight and I fail to spot another road user, be it a car, bicycle or pedestrian, then I'm either not paying attention or I'm driving too fast for the road conditions.

My car is black BTW. Nobody has ever told me I'm being irresponsible.

ROK ON · 06-01-2015 1:56pm

Where can I buy te hi-viz cufflinks that Seamus referred to.

Also from now on my kids will be tied down with bailing twine - might just prevent all of the fights that currently take place in the back seat of our car.

Jabel · 06-01-2015 1:58pm

Well Holy God…I turn my back for 5 minutes and there's a lights/hi-vis/pedestrians/rules/laws/enforcement/no I'm right, you're wrong/well if that's the way you're gonna type I'll.../I didn't say that, I said this/what? he wore black on a bike? tut tut..
debate going on… it must be 2015!
Happy new year folks

seamus · 06-01-2015 1:59pm

Falcon L wrote: »

I would consider it the responsibility of any road user to make themselves as visible as possible. I would consider myself irresponsible if I walked on the side of a road dressed entirely in black, especially on a day with poor visibility.

When I drive my car on a dull day, I feel it is my responsibility to have it as visible as possible, with headlights on etc.

Maybe it's just me.

What colour is your car, as a matter of interest?

Falcon L · 06-01-2015 1:59pm

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

It's not just you. There's plenty who take the victim blaming approach.

If I'm driving in daylight and I fail to spot another road user, be it a car, bicycle or pedestrian, then I'm either not paying attention or I'm driving too fast for the road conditions.

My car is black BTW. Nobody has ever told me I'm being irresponsible.

I'm not blaming anybody for anything. I didn't mention victims at all. I was merely making an observation. I'll bow out here, as I seem to be rising hackles. Not my intention, I assure you.

Falcon L · 06-01-2015 2:00pm

seamus wrote: »

What colour is your car, as a matter of interest?

Silver. Not the best colour for visibility, I know. But during winter, I keep it well lit.

check_six · 06-01-2015 2:01pm

ted1 wrote: »

How about they allow camera footage be used for issuing fines etc, we could drop up the station on Fridays and show them a weeks worth of fine material. Running lights, talking on phones, driving in bus lanes etc parking in cycle paths

My favourite variation on this theme was a Council CCTV camera mounted near a newly installed bus lane in the UK. There was a business premises that had its employee car park off the road beside the bus lane. The employees would have to drive cross the bus lane to get into the car park every day. As there was no dashed lines installed to allow them to legally cross the bus lane, the council sent them a fine for every car for every day. Not a great use of the system.

tunney · 06-01-2015 2:01pm

PaddyFagan wrote: »

For me - it is all about that 100kg @ 20kph and the risk they pose to a pedestrian/child.

Depending on the time, I'm a motorist, a cyclist and a pedestrian all in the same day. For me road safety is all about me acting safely (for myself and others) in each role. Each role has a different risk profile for me, and I pose different risks to other road users - but at no point can I put my desire to make progress ahead of the safety of other (more vulnerable) road users.

Paddy

Bet as a motorist you complain about "cyclists not using the bike lanes". you know the ones that are on shared footpaths? that vunerable, less aware, pedestrians are on?

The whole crack down on cyclists is populist bull. An attempt to soothe the anger of the motorists, to distract them from the fact the roads are clogged, and that they waste huge proportions of their lifes in cars, they their commute is never ever going to get any better and to pretend that the problem with the roads is someone other than the planners.

tunney · 06-01-2015 2:02pm

Falcon L wrote: »

Just on the clothing issue: I came across 2 cyclists in Dublin the other day. They were dressed entirely in black from their helmets to their shoes. Even their bikes were entirely black. Now, these guys were probably part of a club or something as they were identical.

Are there clubs that have entirely black garb? If so, isn't this being irresponsible?

While it was daytime, it was a very dull day and visibility was poor.

Yet you saw them..................

tunney · 06-01-2015 2:03pm

check_six wrote: »

The plan with the on the spot fines is not to create or fix laws. The fines will be for breaches of existing laws.

Currently, the format is as follows:
- You are stopped for some transgression.
- The guard may or may not send you a summons. This could take many months. You won't know it's coming till it comes into your letterbox.
- Day in court. Day off work. Guard has day off the street.
- €200-€300 fine depending on the mood of the judge.

New format:
- You are stopped for the same transgression as above.
- Guard fines you.
- €50 fine. End of story.

Much neater. And you get much better value for money on your rampage!

This to me would *promote* red light jumping. The time I would save jumping lights. Assuming caught once a month its probably worth the €50.

seamus · 06-01-2015 2:04pm

Falcon L wrote: »

Silver. Not the best colour for visibility, I know. But during winter, I keep it well lit.

And my bike and most of my cycling clothes are black, but likewise I keep myself well lit.

The point here is that saying that cyclists who wear black are being irresponsible is exactly like saying that people who buy black (or silver, grey, red or blue, apparently) cars are being irresponsible.

Intellectual honesty would dictate that if high-vis were to be required for cyclists, then only white, yellow, or gold cars should be legally allowed on the roads.

daragh_ · 06-01-2015 2:05pm

Falcon L wrote: »

Just on the clothing issue: I came across 2 cyclists in Dublin the other day. They were dressed entirely in black from their helmets to their shoes. Even their bikes were entirely black. Now, these guys were probably part of a club or something as they were identical.

Are there clubs that have entirely black garb? If so, isn't this being irresponsible?

While it was daytime, it was a very dull day and visibility was poor.

And yet you managed to see them, look at them from head to toe and judge that they were wearing the same gear. Just out of interest, were you driving?

OldMrBrennan83 · 06-01-2015 2:05pm

This post has been deleted.

07Lapierre · 06-01-2015 2:07pm

Falcon L wrote: »

Just on the clothing issue: I came across 2 cyclists in Dublin the other day. They were dressed entirely in black from their helmets to their shoes. Even their bikes were entirely black. Now, these guys were probably part of a club or something as they were identical.

Are there clubs that have entirely black garb? If so, isn't this being irresponsible?

While it was daytime, it was a very dull day and visibility was poor.

No its not irresponsible. My car is Black, the seats are Black, the carpets are black. So at night..I turn on the Lights, Simple.

PaddyFagan · 06-01-2015 2:09pm

tunney wrote: »

Bet as a motorist you complain about "cyclists not using the bike lanes". you know the ones that are on shared footpaths? that vunerable, less aware, pedestrians are on?

As it happens I don't - I do however complain about the short sighted answers that planners/councils came up with that give us all useless cycle lanes that don't actually help anyone.

Critically, for me it comes back to the point that each of us has a role in road safety and that comes down to understanding the impact you can have on more vulnerable road users - and at no point can we let our desire to make progress override that.

Paddy

Zyzz · 06-01-2015 2:15pm

Jabel wrote: »

Well Holy God…I turn my back for 5 minutes and there's a lights/hi-vis/pedestrians/rules/laws/enforcement/no I'm right, you're wrong/well if that's the way you're gonna type I'll.../I didn't say that, I said this/what? he wore black on a bike? tut tut..
debate going on… it must be 2015!
Happy new year folks

Wouldn't have happened if we were wearing helmets and high vis while browsing boards..

Macy0161 · 06-01-2015 2:16pm

tunney wrote: »

This to me would *promote* red light jumping. The time I would save jumping lights. Assuming caught once a month its probably worth the €50.

Only if the level of enforcement remains the same. There'll be blitz initially (if it ever comes in), but after that I'd expect more enforcement as it won't waste as much of the cops time to process cases as it does now.

The cost to cyclists, and the costs to the state, is totally disproportionate as things stand, compared to motorised vehicles.

Pinch Flat · 06-01-2015 2:18pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

Fines on Spot for cyclists

From Today's Irish Indo.
Finian will be pleased

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/rogue-cyclists-set-to-face-onthespot-fines-30884855.html

As is expected in such a rage drenched car dependent culture, a lot of the posters on the comments section coming up with some innovative road safety ideas like vrt for bikes, "road tax" for cyclists, mandatory insurance and flat fees and even chipping cyclists like dogs (have to say a first for me hearing ths one).

On the light jumping and no lights at night, I'm with it 100% but I'm sure it won't be enforced - was travelling the quays early this morning when a garda jeep in the bus lane ignored motor cyclists in the bus lane and the odd car slipping through a red light. Similarly, cars travelling in the dark with fog lights or partially working head lamps were ignored.

There'll be a blitz every now and again to tweak the statistics, but other than that business as usual.

Keep_Her_Lit · 06-01-2015 2:47pm

logically wrote: »

Hopefully all kids with bikes will be chipped so that their owners can be traced and the owner of the kid can then be fined for the errant behaviour.

FYI, children have parents or guardians, not owners.

Viper_JB · 06-01-2015 2:52pm

tunney wrote: »

This to me would *promote* red light jumping. The time I would save jumping lights. Assuming caught once a month its probably worth the €50.

Ya....but assuming if you're breaking every red light the odds of you getting run over by a car are pretty high, so getting hit by a car once in a life time maybe enough to negate any time you've saved up until that point by breaking the lights...might be worth the 50 euro but probably not worth a life.

Danjamin1 · 06-01-2015 3:07pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

I wear this Jacket: http://store.bicycle-line.com/eng/catalog-long_sleeve_jersey_impeto_blue-c1638.html

It has reflective strips which IMO is more than adequate, as long as you have descent (working) lights on your bike.

Definitely no need for This: http://www.hivis.net/20/High-Visibility/Hi-Vis-Vest/

Although a lot of people seem to think that wearing a hi viz vest is a suitable alternative to lights! I think those people should be fined.

I have the same jacket in red, my only complaint is that it doesn't have the headphone access to the rear zip pocket the older version had. Perfectly adequate cycling attire mind you.

Deedsie · 06-01-2015 3:09pm

I am all for it, hope it is enforced and harshly. Start on the N11 please Garda. Cycling on footpaths should definitely be hammered.

Ole Rodrigo · 06-01-2015 3:10pm

I hear there's a 1000 euro fine for breaking a red whilst commuter racing. About time this heinous act of civil disregard is addressed.

ted1 · 06-01-2015 3:11pm

Deedsie wrote: »

I am all for it, hope it is enforced and harshly. Start on the N11 please Garda. Cycling on footpaths should definitely be hammered.

The foot path is the cycle lane. Seriously where do cyclists cycle on the footpath on the N11. I use it twice s day and have never seen a cyclists on the path outside the cycle lane

bazermc · 06-01-2015 3:14pm

Deedsie wrote: »

I am all for it, hope it is enforced and harshly. Start on the N11 please Garda. Walking in the cyclelane should definitely be hammered.

FYP

07Lapierre · 06-01-2015 3:19pm

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I have the same jacket in red, my only complaint is that it doesn't have the headphone access to the rear zip pocket the older version had. Perfectly adequate cycling attire mind you.

Actually its not the exact same as mine. Mine has a pocket specifically for an iPod which I use for listening to headphone while cycling*

* but that's a subject for another thread!

Jawgap · 06-01-2015 3:19pm

Falcon L wrote: »

I would consider it the responsibility of any road user to make themselves as visible as possible. I would consider myself irresponsible if I walked on the side of a road dressed entirely in black, especially on a day with poor visibility.

When I drive my car on a dull day, I feel it is my responsibility to have it as visible as possible, with headlights on etc.

Maybe it's just me.

Well there's a difference between being a pedestrian on an unlit country road and in a well lit urban area.

Plus if you are unfortunate enough to clip someone while driving a car try the "they should've been more visible" defence with the judge and see how far you get.

tampopo · 06-01-2015 3:21pm

Falcon L wrote: »

I would consider it the responsibility of any road user to make themselves as visible as possible. I would consider myself irresponsible if I walked on the side of a road dressed entirely in black, especially on a day with poor visibility.

When I drive my car on a dull day, I feel it is my responsibility to have it as visible as possible, with headlights on etc.

Maybe it's just me.

Is your car a yellow car?

Pinch Flat · 06-01-2015 3:21pm

Deedsie wrote: »

I am all for it, hope it is enforced and harshly. Start on the N11 please Garda. Cycling on footpaths should definitely be hammered.

Yeah while there at it cars parking on footpaths, disabled spaces, yellow lines and cycle lanes. The list goes on.

All joking aside I cannot condone cycling on footpaths - it's illegal and dangerous. Although I can see places around where I live where it's almost unavoidable - like at castleknock college, where the traffic can be backer up for around 500 metres at the lights. Or cycling up near Christchurch in the city centre - 2 lanes of traffic and no space for bikes. The road is so narrow that there's no space to pass on a bike. It's the lesser of two evils cycling along the path which some do.

Bunnyhopper · 06-01-2015 3:28pm

The bit about "not wearing appropriate safety gear that identifies a cyclist in the dark" is the most worrying aspect of this. Will you be getting a €50 fine because your pedals don't have reflectors on them (even if your shoes and leggings do)?

The real problem with the obsession with hi-viz and helmets is that it distracts from more effective (but more difficult, more expensive, less populist) safety measures. The jurisdictions that have the best safety records for cycling do not enforce hi-viz or helmets. Cyclists in those places tend not to feel any need for them anyway, and are still safer because the more important legislative and infrastructure steps have been taken.

If all this proposal does is improve enforcement of shoddy legislation for cyclists trying to use shoddy infrastructure, then it will only make things worse.

I suspect that Fine Gael will require all cyclists to wear Patriotic Irish Freedom Fighter Lighting Equipment (PIFFLE):

Macy0161 · 06-01-2015 3:44pm

ted1 wrote: »

The foot path is the cycle lane. Seriously where do cyclists cycle on the footpath on the N11. I use it twice s day and have never seen a cyclists on the path outside the cycle lane

I can't think of any section either. There's 100% shared sections around Stillorgan, with not even a line seperating pedestrians and cyclists, but it is definitely shared not footpath. I regularly encounter pedestrians in the cycle lanes though, although probably not as much as parked cars.

lennymc · 06-01-2015 3:49pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

I regularly encounter pedestrians in the cycle lanes though, although probably not as much as parked cars.

I've never encountered pedestrians in parked cars.

Snickers Man · 06-01-2015 3:54pm

Lumen wrote: »

I look forward to seeing cars wearing their mandatory hi-vis vests.

They do. They're called headlights.

Long overdue to make cyclists wear some form of high viz clothing after dark. I always do when I take to the bike in winter. Doesn't have to be a "dorky yellow mac". Just an overall with a reflective strip that you can pop into your pocket or hand bag.

It's not like it's a helmet that you would have to carry round with you all day. I would oppose a move to make helmet wearing mandatory as much as I would warmly welcome compulsory hi-viz after dark.

Actually, I wouldn't even make hi-viz compulsory but I would make a poorly illuminated cyclist who gets hit by another vehicle after dark ineligible to claim against the other party's insurance. Ditto for traffic light jumpers who get hit. Instead of cashing in on their death, if such is the case, their bereaved widow/mother gets the bill for damage to the car's paint.

That would concentrate minds admirably.

magicbastarder · 06-01-2015 3:56pm

so cars need lights but not reflective strips, whereas cyclists need both?

eoz · 06-01-2015 4:05pm

Another money making racket is all this is. Be hard enough for the gardai to enforce though when demanding names and addresses etc. Will cyclists be required to carry ID to prove who they are? Next we will be required to stick number plates on our bikes and pay road tax!!!

tunney · 06-01-2015 4:07pm

eoz wrote: »

Another money making racket is all this is. Be hard enough for the gardai to enforce though when demanding names and addresses etc. Will cyclists be required to carry ID to prove who they are? Next we will be required to stick number plates on our bikes and pay road tax!!!

Ihre Papiere bitte

StereoSound · 06-01-2015 4:17pm

This is just scare mongering I think. It's not gonna be very easy to enforce. €50 fines hmmm. Will we have to carry ID to provide proof of our name and address when this comes in so they will not have John Frank or Mary giving micky mouse addresses to send fines to?

What's the age restriction gonna be? Can they fine a 10 year old on the foot path on his BMX?

No lights at night definitely should be an offence though. Breaking red lights I get that as well but since bikes are not mechanically propelled vehicles they will have to change the rule book to enforce those ones.

I'm quite new to cycling so excuse my ignorance if any.

ford2600 · 06-01-2015 4:19pm

In early days of free state and up to increased car numbers, Gardai, especially in country areas, spent a lot of time and effort enforcing the absence of bike lights(when they were expensive and useless).

A neighbour, now long deceased gave his name and address to Garda on being caught without a light.

The address was Clashavougha(pronounced locally as Clash-a-woka).

After multiple demands to spell it which was countered each time by "your the man with the pen, Clashawoka boy Clashawoka" the guard gave up.

*Humour may be lost on non culchies :-)

ThisRegard · 06-01-2015 4:22pm

Falcon L wrote: »

I would consider it the responsibility of any road user to make themselves as visible as possible. I would consider myself irresponsible if I walked on the side of a road dressed entirely in black, especially on a day with poor visibility.

When I drive my car on a dull day, I feel it is my responsibility to have it as visible as possible, with headlights on etc.

Maybe it's just me.

I had a similar debate in the running forum before Christmas, before being called a troll by some eejits because of my opinions on this.

But there's a feeling by some people that even in cities you should be wearing high viz when out running on a footpath, otherwise you're putting your life at risk if you don't. I just throw back the question that should you wear it if walking to the shop at night ?

There was even the scenario thrown at me that what if someone was driving and something appeared on the road, if you're not wearing high vis the driver is likely to aim for the footpath to avoid it and kill you.

Macy0161 · 06-01-2015 4:24pm

StereoSound wrote: »

This is just scare mongering I think. It's not gonna be very easy to enforce. €50 fines hmmm. Will we have to carry ID to provide proof of our name and address when this comes in so they will not have John Frank or Mary giving micky mouse addresses to send fines to?

What's the age restriction gonna be? Can they fine a 10 year old on the foot path on his BMX?

No lights at night definitely should be an offence though. Breaking red lights I get that as well but since bikes are not mechanically propelled vehicles they will have to change the rule book to enforce those ones.

I'm quite new to cycling so excuse my ignorance if any.

They're already offences, but there's no fixed penalty. So it's a court summons, and a fine (if it goes to court).

If someone is going to commit another offence (giving a false name) to avoid a €50 fine, they'd probably do it to avoid the much more punitive summons and court fine, so no difference and a bit of red herring imo.

Pinch Flat · 06-01-2015 4:24pm

StereoSound wrote: »

Breaking red lights I get that as well but since bikes are not mechanically propelled vehicles they will have to change the rule book to enforce those ones.

I'm quite new to cycling so excuse my ignorance if any.

Incorrect. Bikes are vehicles so breaking a red light is as illegal for a cyclist as it is for a car. The former is not the mechanically propelled - this is immaterial.

dante2015 · 06-01-2015 4:29pm

i agree with Cyclists being fined for things like running a red light, i am sick of crossing the street/road when the green man is showing only to be nearly run down by a cyclist who things the rules of the road dont apply to them, i wouldnt mind if it was once in a while i could deal with that, but it is every day now, or when i am driving i see a cyclist taking up half the road (they are not that big seriously),

its about time they were fined as 80% of them are Dangerous

dante2015 · 06-01-2015 4:30pm

can we fine them for wearing lycra that shows everything

that should be banned

Jawgap · 06-01-2015 4:30pm

It's always been the case that a Guard can seize your bike if he's not satisfied you've given the correct details.

So if you are caught and you don't or can't produce id you could find your trusty steed disappearing down the road in the back of a Garda van to be lumped into a property store somewhere!

Beasty · 06-01-2015 4:31pm

dante2015 wrote: »

its about time they were fined as 80% of them are Dangerous

Source?
Seriously - don't come on here quoting random numbers to try and make a point - it only make you look like a troll

Jawgap · 06-01-2015 4:34pm

dante2015 wrote: »

......

its about time they were fined as 80% of them are Dangerous

07Lapierre · 06-01-2015 4:34pm

dante2015 wrote: »

can we fine them for wearing lycra that shows everything

that should be banned

Agree White Lycra and worn shorts that show the crack of your ass!

Tenzor07 · 06-01-2015 4:34pm

StereoSound wrote: »

This is just scare mongering I think. It's not gonna be very easy to enforce. €50 fines hmmm. Will we have to carry ID to provide proof of our name and address when this comes in so they will not have John Frank or Mary giving micky mouse addresses to send fines to?

Your obliged to give your correct name and address to a Garda, if they suspect you're not telling the truth they can take your bike back to the station until you present proof of identity, and get your bike back then...

CramCycle · 06-01-2015 4:35pm

StereoSound wrote: »

This is just scare mongering I think. It's not gonna be very easy to enforce. €50 fines hmmm. Will we have to carry ID to provide proof of our name and address when this comes in so they will not have John Frank or Mary giving micky mouse addresses to send fines to?

Gardai have the right to seize your bicycle if they do not believe the identity you provide and can hold it until such time as someone with the identity you provided proves it. Hardly worth the effort for a 50euro fine, although hopefully it will make it not worth breaking the law that gets you the fine.

Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

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