"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Bumblebee Man · 01-06-2014 10:00am

I just emailed them there yeah

Greenmachine · 01-06-2014 4:40pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Company decided for some reason to remove ALL Stage Identification marks many years ago.

Once that decision was made and implimented,the operation of a Fare-Stage system immediately became impossible,and I contend that remains the case today.

If you really wish to be certain as to the correct fare then use the "Fare Calculator" app of the Dublin Bus website.
This allows a customer to identify the correct fare for a journey between ANY two stops on the BAC system
It also allows those interested to cross reference the Stage Number with the actual Bus-Stop Number thereby removing any doubt...yes ?
Well....kinda....because in some cases the Net Based Stage location does not coincide with the Stage Location as identified(usually ambiguously) on the printed timetable sheet.

Reinstate the On Street Stage Markings and the problem is 100% resolved for Customer and Staff alike.

Mind you,It would be of enormous help if it had not been allowed to happen in the first place...:o

That's exactly how I identified the correct fare actually.

01-06-2014 4:46pm

Even without leap the stage calculation is a joke. Once out of the last 10 or so return trips I've made on Dublin Bus was I charged the same amount each way.

punisher5112 · 01-06-2014 4:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Even without leap the stage calculation is a joke. Once out of the last 10 or so return trips I've made on Dublin Bus was I charged the same amount each way.

While boarding state destination and also state fare the 2 together helps a lot.

01-06-2014 4:56pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

While boarding state destination and also state fare the 2 together helps a lot.

I'm not from Dublin and recently haven't been making the exact same journey twice very often. Yes I could research exactly which stop I'm getting on and off beforehand but it's not exactly convenient to do so and one would think that a ticket with my stated destination would automatically be calculated correctly. I'm not suggesting I'm getting overcharged each time, just as likely I'm getting undercharged.

punisher5112 · 01-06-2014 5:03pm

If you travel a lot loading a rambler on may suit or if you know your going to use €6.90 or more then just use the smart card reader at the right side of door.

Aard · 01-06-2014 5:19pm

It's unreasonable to assume that somebody will know the exact fare (whether cash or leap) to their destination. They should be able to be confident that once they state their destination that the correct fare will be requested (or applied to the leapcard) every single time. Anything less constitutes a lack of transparency, which casts public transport in a terrible light.

Whether they like it or not, bus drivers must be entirely au fait with the fare structure. I understand what Alek says about stage markings having been removed from the bus stops, but imo that's no excuse. Familiarity with the route and the city should be a prerequisite for any driver. I don't see why it's so hard to remember exactly when to adjust the stages on the ticket machine.

punisher5112 · 01-06-2014 5:26pm

Aard wrote: »

It's unreasonable to assume that somebody will know the exact fare (whether cash or leap) to their destination. They should be able to be confident that once they state their destination that the correct fare will be requested (or applied to the leapcard) every single time. Anything less constitutes a lack of transparency, which casts public transport in a terrible light.

Whether they like it or not, bus drivers must be entirely au fait with the fare structure. I understand what Alek says about stage markings having been removed from the bus stops, but imo that's no excuse. Familiarity with the route and the city should be a prerequisite for any driver. I don't see why it's so hard to remember exactly when to adjust the stages on the ticket machine.

The problem I find is 80% or more don't state their destination and can actually become verbally abusive and on a few occasions spat at and stuff thrown at me as these fools get off.

Sometimes the driver may be behind a stage or 2 this can happen especially when quiet as you forget to move up a stage, this should be linked through the GPS system which would cut this out and also as I have said before the cards should be tag on/off.

LXFlyer · 01-06-2014 5:46pm

Aard wrote: »

It's unreasonable to assume that somebody will know the exact fare (whether cash or leap) to their destination. They should be able to be confident that once they state their destination that the correct fare will be requested (or applied to the leapcard) every single time. Anything less constitutes a lack of transparency, which casts public transport in a terrible light.

Whether they like it or not, bus drivers must be entirely au fait with the fare structure. I understand what Alek says about stage markings having been removed from the bus stops, but imo that's no excuse. Familiarity with the route and the city should be a prerequisite for any driver. I don't see why it's so hard to remember exactly when to adjust the stages on the ticket machine.

Bear in mind that unless the driver is "marked in" (i.e. permanently rostered) to a certain route, they can work every single route in the garage.

That's a lot of routes to remember!!

That can be up to 15 routes and without markings people are bound to make the odd mistake.

loyatemu · 01-06-2014 9:55pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

The problem I find is 80% or more don't state their destination and can actually become verbally abusive and on a few occasions spat at and stuff thrown at me as these fools get off.

Sometimes the driver may be behind a stage or 2 this can happen especially when quiet as you forget to move up a stage, this should be linked through the GPS system which would cut this out and also as I have said before the cards should be tag on/off.

seriously? the machine doesn't know where the bus is? that's a farce.

Fred Swanson · 01-06-2014 10:07pm

This post has been deleted.

AndrewJD · 01-06-2014 11:31pm

I've had it a few times where I've stated the correct fare, yet the passenger facing machine displays the stop before it. If I was ticket inspected (a highly unlikely put still possible event) between those stops, presumably I would be liable for a fine? This would be especially annoying as the screens are hard to read in the push and pull of getting on at a busy stop, and in the case of today the screen is sometimes entirely broken. After realising this I switched to stating a destination, but I've been undercharged for that too. I don't mind saving money, but if I was called up for it, would the bus driver back me up?

punisher5112 · 02-06-2014 1:33am

AndrewJD wrote: »

I've had it a few times where I've stated the correct fare, yet the passenger facing machine displays the stop before it. If I was ticket inspected (a highly unlikely put still possible event) between those stops, presumably I would be liable for a fine? This would be especially annoying as the screens are hard to read in the push and pull of getting on at a busy stop, and in the case of today the screen is sometimes entirely broken. After realising this I switched to stating a destination, but I've been undercharged for that too. I don't mind saving money, but if I was called up for it, would the bus driver back me up?

Hi this can happen and I have mistakingly pressed the wrong button/price from time to time but correct it or if lower amount it is ok.

If the checkers get on the time will show on ticket anyway and very unlikely scenario but they won't do you for 1 or 2 stages out and if you are honest about things.

They aren't completely out there just to fine its also good to show a little lee way and educate not just fine for everything.

AlekSmart · 02-06-2014 2:13am

Aard wrote: »

It's unreasonable to assume that somebody will know the exact fare (whether cash or leap) to their destination. They should be able to be confident that once they state their destination that the correct fare will be requested (or applied to the leapcard) every single time. Anything less constitutes a lack of transparency, which casts public transport in a terrible light.

Whether they like it or not, bus drivers must be entirely au fait with the fare structure. I understand what Alek says about stage markings having been removed from the bus stops, but imo that's no excuse. Familiarity with the route and the city should be a prerequisite for any driver. I don't see why it's so hard to remember exactly when to adjust the stages on the ticket machine.

100% + Agree on the transparency issue....I cannot begin to fathom WHY a Public Transport Operator would embark on such a thorough programme to remove EVERY on street Stage Identifier from it's system.

BAC drivers ARE totally au-fait with the Fare STRUCTURE,however under the present arrangements NOBODY can say the same about the Stage Locations....take a look through the timetable sheet locations for any given route then compare these to the Fare Calculator locations.

Clearly identifying the actual Fare Stage,on street,is THE most basic element of a Stage Based Fare System,which BAC puports to operate and,at a stroke,removes all ambiguity and attendant risk of unpleasantness

Hotblack Desiato · 02-06-2014 3:10am

Flat fares, or at the very most 2 levels of fare, are urgently needed and should be set at a level to greatly disincentivise cash.

LXFlyer · 02-06-2014 7:09am

ninja900 wrote: »

Flat fares, or at the very most 2 levels of fare, are urgently needed and should be set at a level to greatly disincentivise cash.

Good luck in finding that level that maintains fare box revenue at current levels, especially since there is going to be a further shortfall in revenue now 16-18 year olds will pay child fares.

loyatemu · 02-06-2014 12:20pm

a zone system that is the same for bus/dart/luas is the obvious answer - Luas already has it, the Dart and DB's Xpress services have a basic zonal system too.

Is this NTA policy? - if it isn't it should be.

AlekSmart · 02-06-2014 1:06pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

The problem I find is 80% or more don't state their destination and can actually become verbally abusive and on a few occasions spat at and stuff thrown at me as these fools get off.

Yes indeed Punisher,this reflects our national attitude to almost everything.

When asked for a specific destination,many folks get suddenly vague...."Down the road"......Just beside ,y'know,near the "..or my favorite...."3 stops"....Inevitably, when I pull up at that 3rd Stop and glance in the mirror I'll get..."Sorry,I meant the next one...a process which can then continue well into double digit territory"

As a people we simply do not like being pinned down to specifics...."approximates" do us fine thank you very much.

ANY Stage Based Fare System depends upon a single element for trouble free operation....STAGE POINTS,individually identified for ALL to see.

Fare Stages are individual POINTS...not Zones or Areas,but definite Clearly identifiable POINTS from which the respective charge is applied.

Attempting to proceed with this pre-requisite absent is doomed to failure...Full-Stop.

Anybody attempting to suggest otherwise is deluded or wrong,or possibly both...:)

AlekSmart · 02-06-2014 1:12pm

loyatemu wrote: »

a zone system that is the same for bus/dart/luas is the obvious answer - Luas already has it, the Dart and DB's Xpress services have a basic zonal system too.

Is this NTA policy? - if it isn't it should be.

Hmmmm careful what you wish for...;)

I can't speak for the Rail based systems,but it has to be borne in mind that BAC's Zonal Fares operate on their NON-PSO services...commercial services charging a commercial fare....IF we abandon the long standing,well proven and highly flexible Fare Stage system,then it's far less flexible replacement will require substantial subvention.

Thus it only becomes viable IF a substantial increase in Customer numbers can be provided by that Authority.

There is very little wrong in the Fare-Stage System...Nothing wrong,in fact...IF the damn Stages are CLEARLY identified by the simplest,lowest tech (and Cheapest) means imaginable...Letraset Figures & Numbers !

There is No Need to reinvent the wheel here......:eek:

L1011 · 02-06-2014 10:22pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Good luck in finding that level that maintains fare box revenue at current levels, especially since there is going to be a further shortfall in revenue now 16-18 year olds will pay child fares.

Removing the existing byzantine and rarely actually applied properly zones is likely to actually encourage more usage though.

T-wolf · 03-06-2014 7:39am

T-wolf wrote: »

Possibly. Sit back and wait until Tuesday and see what happens I guess.
It's annoying, it's a DB+Luas ticket, so you should be able to collect it on the Luas TVM.. You'd think!
Somehow it is not a surprise to know DB have to be different... :-)

Well, it's official. Just boarded the bus, and was I glad to have added a tenner cash to the leap card in advance. No sight or sign of the months bus+luas taxsaver ticket on the card.
Guess I can add a phone call to leap card support to today's to do list... :-(

LXFlyer · 03-06-2014 7:45am

MYOB wrote: »

Removing the existing byzantine and rarely actually applied properly zones is likely to actually encourage more usage though.

I'm not sure you take that risk when the company's finances are in a perilous position though.

AngryLips · 03-06-2014 8:23am

Are there any plans to make leap the only way to pay on DB? Ie remove cash fares

LXFlyer · 03-06-2014 8:27am

No - I can't see that happening here for some time.

AlekSmart · 03-06-2014 8:51am

T-wolf wrote: »

Well, it's official. Just boarded the bus, and was I glad to have added a tenner cash to the leap card in advance. No sight or sign of the months bus+luas taxsaver ticket on the card.
Guess I can add a phone call to leap card support to today's to do list... :-(

T-Wolf,did your driver search the Card ?

Only asking as I have had situations where the Leapcard did NOT default to the valid Rambler,but instead displayed the last Outdated one....try it again on your return journey,ask the driver to double-check.

Dont't forget to INSIST on those Purse Fares being reimbursed ! :eek:

T-wolf · 03-06-2014 9:08am

AlekSmart wrote: »

T-Wolf,did your driver search the Card ?

Only asking as I have had situations where the Leapcard did NOT default to the valid Rambler,but instead displayed the last Outdated one....try it again on your return journey,ask the driver to double-check.

Dont't forget to INSIST on those Purse Fares being reimbursed ! :eek:

Didn't even think of it actually - plus there's the problem that even if the DB driver can search the card, the Luas validator poles don't have that option.

And don't worry - I'm keeping a track of the fares and they'll be reimbursed..

loyatemu · 03-06-2014 10:09am

AlekSmart wrote: »

There is very little wrong in the Fare-Stage System...Nothing wrong,in fact...IF the damn Stages are CLEARLY identified by the simplest,lowest tech (and Cheapest) means imaginable...Letraset Figures & Numbers

the main problem is it is too complex, even the drivers don't understand it. it is inconsistently applied across different routes.

Tag-on/tag-off would alleviate some of this, but cash fares would still be a problem.

A zone based system, combined with a Travel90 style time limit for a single journey on all services seems both simple and fair.

n97 mini · 03-06-2014 10:27am

AngryLips wrote: »

Are there any plans to make leap the only way to pay on DB? Ie remove cash fares

Co-incidence. Just got an email today from TfL

Dear n97 mini,

I am writing to let you know that from Sunday 6 July, all our buses are going cash free so you will no longer be able to use cash to pay for your bus fare.

Instead of cash, you can use an Oyster or contactless payment card to pay as you go, or a Travelcard. A single adult bus fare is £1.45 with Oyster or a contactless payment card. Only touch the card you want to use on the yellow card reader.

loyatemu · 03-06-2014 10:35am

loyatemu wrote: »

a Travel90 style time limit for a single journey on all services

looks like this is on the way in the autumn:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fares-to-rise-to-help-bail-out-transport-companies-30323453.html

Some NTA dude wrote:

"This autumn, if you use a second mode of public transport within 90 minutes you will get a steep discount," he said. "For example, you could pay the fare and get the train in from Malahide. You get on the bus, and you might get €1 off.

LXFlyer · 03-06-2014 10:36am

With reference to London Buses going cashless, there is a significant difference in the numbers of non-cash and cash transactions between TfL and Dublin Bus. In London very few people pay by cash, which isn't the case yet in Dublin.

That's going to take time to change behaviour. Personally I think that they should be making the differential between cash and non-cash fares even greater

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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