Government agreement: Free-To-Air RTE in NI, BBC in RoI on DTT platform

Moriarty · 01-02-2010 5:42pm #1

Interesting memorandum of understanding has just been signed between the UK and Irish governments:

http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/MoU-DCMS-DCENR.pdf

...

Co-operation

In light of this, the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Government of Ireland will cooperate to help ensure:

a)A smooth transition to digital terrestrial television and the switch-off of analogue services on the island of Ireland.

b)The widespread availability on the DTT platform of TG4 in Northern Ireland.

c)That arrangements are made to facilitate the widespread availability on the DTT platforms of BBC services in Ireland and of RTE services in Northern Ireland.

d)That public information campaigns about digital transition in both jurisdictions are coordinated in both delivery and content where it is mutually decided that suitable overlaps and sharing of information will assist the viewers. These campaigns should include information on the changes in overspill services in Ireland once the analogue signal is switched off.

e)Arrangements are put in place to facilitate information sharing to allow for the development of digital terrestrial reception equipment which is compatible with the technical standards

f)That the possibilities are explored regarding the reciprocal sharing in both jurisdictions of public service broadcasting digital radio services. applied in both jurisdictions.

...

So, BBC will be available free-to-air over the DTT platform once it's deployed down here in the republic, with reciprocal arrangements for RTE in the north. Interesting, interesting, interesting..

coylemj · 01-02-2010 5:57pm

Fintan Drury will get a shock when he reads that!

coylemj · 01-02-2010 6:03pm

Did they actually say 'free' though - isn't there lot's of Sir Humphrey vagueness like talking about making things available without directly addressing the issue of whether it will need to be paid for or not?

mike65 · 01-02-2010 6:03pm

I think I know who is getting the better part of that deal.

lucernarian · 01-02-2010 6:07pm

mike65 wrote: »

I think I know who is getting the better part of that deal.

I'm not so sure what the BBC have to gain out of the matter, which I assume is what you mean as RTE have much greater coverage in NI than the other way around. If the beeb have to pay RTÉNL carriage costs, then I think it's another customer to pay off the DTT rollout bill. I expect the consequences of this will be more convoluted than my thoughts suggest however:)

Edit: the wording of the agreement does seem to indicate that the broadcasts would be free, as the only financial matters in the MoU do seem to be direct transfer payments for broadcasting such channels. The fact that the agreement specifically mentions space being reserved on PSB muxes on both sides of the border would make me hopeful of this.

Still, there's no explicit declaration that it will be free to air. I don't know how such a PSB mux can be arranged in NI however... It would take a lot of creative multiplex bookeeping and things like the Sheriff's Mountain/Holywell Hill transmitters not broadcasting the same channels twice etc. etc.

Elmo · 01-02-2010 6:14pm

If BBC 1 and 2 NI are available on pay TV in ROI, then we should assume that One Vision will pay carriage cost for BBC, while RTÉ and TG4 will pay for their carriage in the north. If the BBC own the NI network then the BBC will possible gain more out of this than RTÉ. Unless they plan to put BBC on SaorView.

If they do end up on SaorView many people in ROI won't be going to sign up for One Vision anytime soon, I know I would be happy with just RTÉ 1, 2, TV3, TG4, BBC 1 and 2.

craoltoir · 01-02-2010 6:21pm

The wording of the statement indicates that the provision of public service television in each jurisdiction will be provided on a FTA basis in the other.

lucernarian · 01-02-2010 6:25pm

Indicated, but not explicitly said, by my reading of it. I'd love to be corrected though:D

Elmo · 01-02-2010 6:28pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Indicated, but not explicitly said, by my reading of it. I'd love to be corrected though:D

I agree it doesn't explicitly state it.

That arrangements are made to facilitate the widespread availability on the DTT platforms of BBC services in Ireland and of RTE services in Northern Ireland.

They could be happy with Pay TV provisions on both sides of the boarder.

I give it about 5 years, 2 years for One Vision to begin and 3 years to see them close their pay tv operation.

MarkK · 01-02-2010 6:56pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Indicated, but not explicitly said, by my reading of it. I'd love to be corrected though:D

Maybe not explicit in the document, but that seems to be the UK & Irish Governments understanding of it.

http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/media_releases/6613.aspx

"The Memorandum commits the two Governments to facilitating the widespread availability of RTE services in Northern Ireland and BBC services in Ireland on a free-to-air basis."

The same statement is also on the Department of Communications Web site.
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Boost+for+Irish+Language+Broadcasting.htm

mrdtv2010 · 01-02-2010 7:24pm

Warm words but a) how's it going to be paid for b) UTV will object in the courts b) where's the spectrum coming from and d) they'll have to use T2 in Northern Ireland with new spectrum. I mentioned this in the other thread and the Arqiva report on NI spectrum availability. An incoming Conservative Government in the UK will probably slash vanity public service project like this proposal. This is going to get interesting...

BBC take:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8492102.stm

MarkK · 01-02-2010 7:37pm

Indeed, there could be a single "RTE North" channel with a mix of RTE1 and RTE2.

Apogee · 01-02-2010 8:03pm

RT&#201 wrote: »

Ryan signs TG4 agreement with Britsh govt

Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan has signed an agreement with the British government to ensure the continuing widespread availability of TG4 in Northern Ireland following the switchover from analogue to digital TV services, which is planned there for 2012.

The agreement commits the two governments to facilitating RTÉ services in Northern Ireland and BBC services in the Republic of Ireland on a free-to-air basis.

The minister said the agreement provided for an all-island approach to the development of digital television services in Ireland.

He said: 'At a time when there's a lot of attention on North-South negotiations, it's important for people to be able to access culture, sports, news and know what's happening North and South.'

'Having the BBC available in the South gives us a clear link with what politicians in the North are doing.

'Having TG4 and RTÉ available in the North is equally important so we have a common understanding on the island of what we have as a common culture.'

Northern Ireland Secretary Shaun Woodward said it underlined the British government's commitment to the development of the Irish language in Northern Ireland.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0201/communications.html

Digifriendly · 01-02-2010 8:24pm

MarkK wrote: »

Indeed, there could be a single "RTE North" channel with a mix of RTE1 and RTE2.

I certainly wouldn't want a mix of both as you would lose out. Better to have both separately with full content as most people in NI have at present. What's the problem with RTE1and 2 on DTT in NI apart from lack of space on transmitters?

Elmo · 01-02-2010 8:34pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't want a mix of both as you would lose out. Better to have both separately with full content as most people in NI have at present. What's the problem with RTE1and 2 on DTT in NI apart from lack of space on transmitters?

Rights issues.

UTV would worry that advertising revenue would end up in the hands of RTÉ remember for many years UTV had good revenues coming from the South, they wouldn't like it working the other way.

However the rights issues could be sorted out by blocking content or replacing content. (However UTV would still have an issue with Ad Rev)

E.G. When EastEnders goes out on RTÉ they could replace it with RTÉ Ulster News or BBC Newsline and in the Republic the BBC could replace it with RTÉ News or BBC Newsline ROI.

Note that neither UTV or TV3 where mentioned.

scath · 01-02-2010 11:43pm

That sounds promising. Seems like I could send of an email to Minister Ryan congratulating him on implementing a tract of Green Policy. Seems like this might be an indicator that DTT is gathering steam now

Digifriendly · 02-02-2010 12:23am

Elmo wrote: »

Rights issues.

UTV would worry that advertising revenue would end up in the hands of RTÉ remember for many years UTV had good revenues coming from the South, they wouldn't like it working the other way.

However the rights issues could be sorted out by blocking content or replacing content. (However UTV would still have an issue with Ad Rev)

E.G. When EastEnders goes out on RTÉ they could replace it with RTÉ Ulster News or BBC Newsline and in the Republic the BBC could replace it with RTÉ News or BBC Newsline ROI.

Note that neither UTV or TV3 where mentioned.

Answer then is for strong high gain aerials to pick up signals from across the border and purchase MPEG 4 set top boxes or TV's with MPEG4 and MPEG 2. I detest the way some content on RTE via Sky is blocked out due to rights issues. Even 'Dukes of Hazzard' is blocked out on TG4. AFAIK this also happens on cable here in NI. So glad I receive RTE via an aerial. Any idea if ROI DTT signal will be juiced up when its fully operational?

marclt · 02-02-2010 12:40am

I guess by not having UTV and TV3 mentioned, it shows that as far as most are concerned these channels hold no real public service value. Eventhough UTV produces more local programmes than the rest of the network, it is essentially a commercial broadcaster.

RTE are already sellingt their advertising on the basis that they are available terrestrially, via cable and digital sat (as part of a subscription) anyway.

A significant move here, which will damage any potential pay dtt operation. The whole saorview package seems to be coming together..

I'd guess BBC1/2 could easily be put onto the RTE NL mux. With spare capacity (using digital dividend frequencies) on the main sites in NI for RTE.

Souriau · 02-02-2010 2:56am

MarkK wrote: »

Indeed, there could be a single "RTE North" channel with a mix of RTE1 and RTE2.

Maybe there will be BBC Ireland as sometime some program rights maybe for UK only and Eire could get a blank screen like how RTE on Sky for viewers in NI get blank screen when a right to show in NI is not allow...

Minstrel27 · 02-02-2010 8:58am

Digifriendly wrote: »

Answer then is for strong high gain aerials to pick up signals from across the border and purchase MPEG 4 set top boxes or TV's with MPEG4 and MPEG 2. I detest the way some content on RTE via Sky is blocked out due to rights issues. Even 'Dukes of Hazzard' is blocked out on TG4. AFAIK this also happens on cable here in NI. So glad I receive RTE via an aerial. Any idea if ROI DTT signal will be juiced up when its fully operational?

Detest all you want but that's the reality of programme rights. Programmes from the UK are blocked here too.

The Cush · 02-02-2010 9:32am

RTÉ Six-One News report of the signing of the agreement.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0201/6news_av.html?2692549,null,230

Sam Russell · 02-02-2010 11:19am

Elmo wrote: »

Rights issues.

E.G. When EastEnders goes out on RTÉ they could replace it with RTÉ Ulster News or BBC Newsline and in the Republic the BBC could replace it with RTÉ News or BBC Newsline ROI.

Note that neither UTV or TV3 where mentioned.

If BBC is available in Ireland FTA which is clearly what is meant, then RTE would cease to take Eastenders, and other BBC programmes for simultaneous broadcast. They would have to replace it with their own or other bought in programmes. If RTE had an HD channel, they could broadcast HD versions (if available) of BBC programmes, perhaps. Rights issues would not apply, since BBC do not pay seperate rights for Wales or Scotland, or even NI.

Great news:), sounds like DTT is ready to go, with ASO in 2012, as pointed to already.

Where are OneVision?

slegs · 02-02-2010 11:32am

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Warm words but a) how's it going to be paid for b) UTV will object in the courts b) where's the spectrum coming from and d) they'll have to use T2 in Northern Ireland with new spectrum. I mentioned this in the other thread and the Arqiva report on NI spectrum availability. An incoming Conservative Government in the UK will probably slash vanity public service project like this proposal. This is going to get interesting...

BBC take:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8492102.stm

What has DVB-T2 got to do with this? BBC will be available on Saorview according to my reading of this.

galtee boy · 02-02-2010 11:47am

slegs wrote: »

What has DVB-T2 got to do with this? BBC will be available on Saorview according to my reading of this.

Agreed Slegs, to any "man in the street" reading what both ministers said yesterday, we will see BBC 1 NI, BBC2 NI definitely on FTA DTT mux in ROI, and possibly BBC 3, BBC4 and BBC News aswell, with RTE1,RTE2 and TG4 on FTA mux in NI. Also, they even mentioned that we could well see BBC Radio's 1-4,( BBC Radio Five Live could be a problem due to sports rights ) and BBC Radio Ulster on DAB in ROI with the Rte/RnaG/Lyric etc being on DAB in NI. It's looks like TV3/UTV/Channel4 etc will have to fight it out in the commercial world ( Onevision come in please ? )
However, what "the man in the street" reads and what the complicated world of broadcasting and politics actually produces may well be something else entirely, but it does look good at the moment.
A fta mux here, carrying RTE1,RTE2,TV3,TG4,3E,BBC1,BBC2,RTE News and possibly some more, in crystal clear digital, widescreen etc would help get DTT off to a flying start in ROI.:)

mrdtv2010 · 02-02-2010 12:07pm

slegs wrote: »

What has DVB-T2 got to do with this? BBC will be available on Saorview according to my reading of this.

I do wish you would read the post: I was referring to NI as is explicitly clear.

SRB · 02-02-2010 12:17pm

galtee boy wrote: »

Agreed Slegs, to any "man in the street" reading what both ministers said yesterday, we will see BBC 1 NI, BBC2 NI definitely on FTA DTT mux in ROI, and possibly BBC 3, BBC4 and BBC News aswell, with RTE1,RTE2 and TG4 on FTA mux in NI. Also, they even mentioned that we could well see BBC Radio's 1-4,( BBC Radio Five Live could be a problem due to sports rights ) and BBC Radio Ulster on DAB in ROI with the Rte/RnaG/Lyric etc being on DAB in NI. It's looks like TV3/UTV/Channel4 etc will have to fight it out in the commercial world ( Onevision come in please ? )
However, what "the man in the street" reads and what the complicated world of broadcasting and politics actually produces may well be something else entirely, but it does look good at the moment.
A fta mux here, carrying RTE1,RTE2,TV3,TG4,3E,BBC1,BBC2,RTE News and possibly some more, in crystal clear digital, widescreen etc would help get DTT off to a flying start in ROI.:)

The agreement for BBC1 and BBC2 NI to be carried on DTT in the ROI would be with BBC Worldwide, so I doubt any other channels would be included, though yes, it's a nice thought. I see BBC1 and BBC2 NI are now listed further up the listings on RTE's DTT Text Service too.

Elmo · 02-02-2010 12:19pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If BBC is available in Ireland FTA which is clearly what is meant, then RTE would cease to take Eastenders, and other BBC programmes for simultaneous broadcast. They would have to replace it with their own or other bought in programmes. If RTE had an HD channel, they could broadcast HD versions (if available) of BBC programmes, perhaps. Rights issues would not apply, since BBC do not pay seperate rights for Wales or Scotland, or even NI.

Why would RTÉ want to get rid of one of its biggest draws?

SRB wrote: »

I see BBC1 and BBC2 NI are now listed further up the listings on RTE's DTT Text Service too.

How do you mean?

slegs · 02-02-2010 1:01pm

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

I do wish you would read the post: I was referring to NI as is explicitly clear.

I did read it and still cant see any relevance to the topic.

Sam Russell · 02-02-2010 1:18pm

Elmo wrote: »

Why would RTÉ want to get rid of one of its biggest draws? [ Eastenders ]

Not a lot of point broadcasting it with adverts in competition with the same thing on a different channel at the same time without adverts. They could show it at a different time I suppose, but not much point of that either.

Would BBC News be included?

Sam Russell · 02-02-2010 1:21pm

slegs wrote: »

What has DVB-T2 got to do with this? BBC will be available on Saorview according to my reading of this.

The memorandum includes the point that STB would have to be compatible, which can only mean DVD-T2 and MPEG4. So if we have to have T2 boxes, we may as well use the T2 transmitters. [This for after ASO in 2012]

SIZE=1][I]My reading[/I][/SIZE

slegs · 02-02-2010 1:33pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The memorandum includes the point that STB would have to be compatible, which can only mean DVD-T2 and MPEG4. So if we have to have T2 boxes, we may as well use the T2 transmitters. [This for after ASO in 2012]

SIZE=1][I]My reading[/I][/SIZE

Will that definitely be the case in NI. Are all Freeview channels in the north going DVB-T2? Would be nothing technically stopping Freeview in the north retransmitting in MPEG2.

dfdream · 02-02-2010 1:44pm

All,

Ye are loosing the run of yourselves.

Its a cheap shot of irish politicians taking praise for a cop out in providing a digital tv service thats standard in other countries.

We dont have digital and other countries have HD and looking at terestrial Super HD.

Trying to get a free deal on bbc channels to make it look like the digital revolution is happening in ireland.

Wow we might have 2 extra channels in standard def.

It would be more in their line to put irish channels FTA on satellite now and deal with the digital terestrial in its own time.

At least then people could get lidl/aldi/maplin receivers and have digital irish channels FTA.

Its always the same with them they dont want to give the small guy anything but dont think twice about giving €100s of millions of natural resources.

I think we should park this one and come back to it in 10 years time.

Freesat type setup with irish channels is the utopia for FTA and it would cost the irish gov nothing.

Its like the broadband debate all over again.

Sam Russell · 02-02-2010 1:51pm

slegs wrote: »

Will that definitely be the case in NI. Are all Freeview channels in the north going DVB-T2? Would be nothing technically stopping Freeview in the north retransmitting in MPEG2.

Nothing is definite. The mention that the STB will have to be taken into account.

i)Sharing information in the context of digital transition information campaigns and on digital transition generally
ii)Facilitating the ongoing spectrum coordination
iii)Facilitating the actions set out above in relation to all-island availability of Television Services
iv)Facilitating the sharing of information around set top box standards and other technology
v)Exploring options in relation to the reciprocal sharing of digital radio services.

I take this as meaning that STB will have to be compatible. Given they are going to go T2/MPEG4 in 2012 on at least one mux, they could decide to go on more that one mux. That would be small problem but not the end of the world.

mrdtv2010 · 02-02-2010 1:56pm

slegs wrote: »

Will that definitely be the case in NI. Are all Freeview channels in the north going DVB-T2? Would be nothing technically stopping Freeview in the north retransmitting in MPEG2.

The compatibility issue is mentioned in the footnote of the MoU. Note that at DSO NI main transmitters will radiate five MPEG2 Freeview muxes and one MPEG4 DVB-T2 mux, just like every other UK main station. This is the configuration which will start rolling out on the Welsh stations this year beginning with Blaen-Plwyf on 24 March. There is increasing speculation that the UK COM operators will want to switch to T2 because it gives you 40Mb/s instead of 24Mb/s in an 8Mhz UHF channel. It is also possible when the Ofcom pay-tv determination is issued in March that the Sky Picnic pay service may be licensed,subject to commercial and technical conditions. A higher capacity pay service offer can afford to bankroll more expensive receivers and, of course, offer more SDTV channels than an MPEG2 or MPEG4 T1 proposition. The spring is going to be very interesting...

Elmo · 02-02-2010 1:57pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not a lot of point broadcasting it with adverts in competition with the same thing on a different channel at the same time without adverts. They could show it at a different time I suppose, but not much point of that either.

Not a lot of point broadcasting it atm. For 18 years no channel this side of the boarder carried it. There are better BBC shows.

sesswhat · 02-02-2010 3:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

iv)Facilitating the sharing of information around set top box standards and other technology

Could this simply be referring to those currently receiving anologue through spillover? They will need to know what equipment to get if they are to continue doing so with DTT.

Sam Russell · 02-02-2010 3:59pm

sesswhat wrote: »

Could this simply be referring to those currently receiving anologue through spillover? They will need to know what equipment to get if they are to continue doing so with DTT.

I would think it is much more. Why bother with the spillover, you do not get a document like this over spillover. I think it means a bit of a rethink on STBs. RTENL have been very quiet for a long time on STBs, only recently appointing a testing lab. All along they have been saying 'No equipment should be purchased until launch'. Well, I wonder why!

If they specify the same box as Freeview HD, then the second Irish PSB could be T2, and NI could also put a second PSB to T2 to carry the RTE/TG4 and BBC HD signals, and allow extra capacity.

It is also possible, but unlikely, the STBs would be subsidised.:rolleyes:

slegs · 02-02-2010 4:14pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think it is much more. Why bother with the spillover, you do not get a document like this over spillover. I think it means a bit of a rethink on STBs. RTENL have been very quiet for a long time on STBs, only recently appointing a testing lab. All along they have been saying 'No equipment should be purchased until launch'. Well, I wonder why!

If they specify the same box as Freeview HD, then the second Irish PSB could be T2, and NI could also put a second PSB to T2 to carry the RTE/TG4 and BBC HD signals, and allow extra capacity.

It is also possible, but unlikely, the STBs would be subsidised.:rolleyes:

Very unlikely in the extreme that there will be any Irish DTT DVB-T2 mux within 3-5 years. Also I would think RTE will be on a DVB-T/MPEG2 mux in the north for maximum exposure. Freeview HD will be niche for a couple of years yet and DVB-T2 will be used for HD only as far as i can see..

I just dont see the correlation between RTE having to be on a DVB-T2 mux in the north because its MPEG4 in the south. They are different systems and there is no technical restriction on the north to use MPEG4 because its being broadcast that way in the south.

DVB-T2 is in its infancy for the UK and not even on the radar medium term for Ireland. This stuff is confusing enough for most people without DVB-T2 constantly being dragged in as an apparent red herring.

iv)Facilitating the sharing of information around set top box standards and other technology

This is about sharing of information and does not imply anywhere a move to new standards or common technology.

Elmo · 02-02-2010 4:17pm

slegs wrote: »

DVB-T2 is in its infancy for the UK and not even on the radar medium term for Ireland. This stuff is confusing enough for most people without DVB-T2 constantly being dragged in as an apparent red herring.

MPEG 2 system used in UK
MPEG 4 currently a test system in Ireland

I assume the network in NI can retransmit RTÉ on MPEG2 and RTÉ NL could transmit BBC on MPEG4. I don't see a problem.

Now explain what DVB-T2 is?

slegs · 02-02-2010 4:23pm

Elmo wrote: »

MPEG 2 system used in UK
MPEG 4 currently a test system in Ireland

I assume the network in NI can retransmit RTÉ on MPEG2 and RTÉ NL could transmit BBC on MPEG4. I don't see a problem.

Now explain what DVB-T2 is?

Huh? Presume this is sarcasm although its hard to tell

I was referring to post 37 where DVB-T2 was mentioned as somehow being relevant to this announcment.

Elmo · 02-02-2010 4:28pm

DVB-T2 is HD version of Freeview, in the most basic of terms.

MPEG2 and 4 are codecs.

Now will when DVB-T2 is fully rolled out will people need to upgrade their DVB-T TV sets?

Sam Russell · 02-02-2010 4:44pm

I think that the use of MPEG4 in NI will only be on the new Freeview HD mux. If there is a shortage of space, they may put the extra channels (RTE) on it. The spirit of trhe memorandum would be that it would be MPEG2 on the PSB mux, but what would be displaced? In Ireland, there is plenty of space at the moment and no need to go to DVB-T2, but the mention of common STBs would suggest that they will look at recommending the UK T2/HD boxes, possibly only for boarder areas. [That is what I meant!]

The Cush · 02-02-2010 5:15pm

slegs wrote: »

DVB-T2 is in its infancy for the UK and not even on the radar medium term for Ireland. This stuff is confusing enough for most people without DVB-T2 constantly being dragged in as an apparent red herring.

This is about sharing of information and does not imply anywhere a move to new standards or common technology.

Agree 100% with that.

In Ireland DVB-T2 won't be considered until after ASO, for possible use on the two further multiplexes.

As the 3 channels won't be available until switchover in NI, thats over two and a half years away, if they can't be accomotated on an existing MPEG-2 mux then possibly the new (Digital Dividend interleaved spectrum) 7th mux might carry them in T2 if enough spare spectrum can be found. T2 specification receivers will be ubiquitous in the UK by then.

Alternatively the UK Digital Dividend Channels 31-37 have not been ruled out for DTT and are in the gift of the UK government whereas Channels 61-69 are allocated to mobile services.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that the use of MPEG4 in NI will only be on the new Freeview HD mux. If there is a shortage of space, they may put the extra channels (RTE) on it.

Right now they don't have enough space on the HD Mux for Channel 5 and are awiating improvements in multiplexing technology to carry 4 HD channels.

mrdtv2010 · 02-02-2010 6:09pm

dfdream wrote: »

All,

Ye are loosing the run of yourselves.

Its a cheap shot of irish politicians taking praise for a cop out in providing a digital tv service thats standard in other countries.

We dont have digital and other countries have HD and looking at terestrial Super HD.

Trying to get a free deal on bbc channels to make it look like the digital revolution is happening in ireland.

Wow we might have 2 extra channels in standard def.

It would be more in their line to put irish channels FTA on satellite now and deal with the digital terestrial in its own time.

At least then people could get lidl/aldi/maplin receivers and have digital irish channels FTA.

Its always the same with them they dont want to give the small guy anything but dont think twice about giving €100s of millions of natural resources.

I think we should park this one and come back to it in 10 years time.

Freesat type setup with irish channels is the utopia for FTA and it would cost the irish gov nothing.

Its like the broadband debate all over again.

The cynical view, but sounding a much needed note of economic realism on this reflector? I wonder...

mrdtv2010 · 02-02-2010 6:16pm

The Cush wrote: »

Agree 100% with that.

In Ireland DVB-T2 won't be considered until after ASO, for possible use on the two further multiplexes.

As the 3 channels won't be available until switchover in NI, thats over two and a half years away, if they can't be accomotated on an existing MPEG-2 mux then possibly the new (Digital Dividend interleaved spectrum) 7th mux might carry them in T2 if enough spare spectrum can be found. T2 specification receivers will be ubiquitous in the UK by then.

Alternatively the UK Digital Dividend Channels 31-37 have not been ruled out for DTT and are in the gift of the UK government whereas Channels 61-69 are allocated to mobile services.

Right now they don't have enough space on the HD Mux for Channel 5 and are awiating improvements in multiplexing technology to carry 4 HD channels.

Four HDTV channels are being broadcast in the London & Granada areas on the test transmissions at data rates of 9.5 Mb/s in MPEG4 DVB-T2. Stand by for a commercial announcement this Friday.

slegs · 02-02-2010 6:23pm

mrdtv, is there any chance you could start one thread on DVB-T2 instead of entering every thread with a DVB-T2 slant.

This particular topic has very little if anything to do with T2 and yet here we are

Not being smart but it may make more sense to discuss the merits or not of T2 for Irish DTT on a single new thread.

mrdtv2010 · 02-02-2010 7:19pm

slegs wrote: »

mrdtv, is there any chance you could start one thread on DVB-T2 instead of entering every thread with a DVB-T2 slant.

This particular topic has very little if anything to do with T2 and yet here we are

Not being smart but it may make more sense to discuss the merits or not of T2 for Irish DTT on a single new thread.

Actually the more interesting issue is this: when will Irish DTT ever start? We've been waiting 12 years. If you just wanted FTA simulcast of Irish PSB services as a stopgap measure you could start tomorrow with MPEG4 T1 which replicates the analogue offer with much better QoS. But nobody seems able ever, ever to make that commitment... Sky must be rubbing their hands with glee at every delay while there is no Irish Freesat ever in sight. What a mess!!

marclt · 02-02-2010 7:24pm

I think we need to be realistic about what this might herald. On analogue, all the Good Friday agreement gave viewers in NI was a low powered TG4 frequency aimed at a specific part of Belfast. Not exactly what many might have interpreted in the beginning. RTE's availability in the north has been through high powered analogue signals beamed in....

So this wording tends to suggest a bit more. It will probably mean in practice that RTE will have some space on the 7th multiplex on main transmitters in the North due to a lack of space on existing multiplexes. Space on freeview is a valuable commodity. It may not include any space on relay sites.

There is lots of space down south... there was a plan for two PSB muxes originally... perhaps this will be the case again. I'm sure that if OneVision doesn't come up trumps any time soon, then TV3 will want to have 3e on a PSB mux. Setanta may also want to fill a slot. Newstalk and Today FM won't want to miss out on taking up space either, not if RTE are the only radio stations on saorview.

The Cush · 02-02-2010 7:38pm

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Four HDTV channels are being broadcast in the London & Granada areas on the test transmissions at data rates of 9.5 Mb/s in MPEG4 DVB-T2. Stand by for a commercial announcement this Friday.

OK, originally when 5 were granted the final slot Ofcom didn't expect the space to be available until end of 2010. That considered two SD channels in NI on that mux probably won't be possible.

Souriau · 02-02-2010 10:34pm

When the two goverments agreements stated that the two digital systems to be share and standardise.
Does this mean both NI and Eire will have 1 approval STB format that is suitable in both area?
i.e MPEG4.
I have a feeling that maybe they will have a STB that is suitable for all Ireland, maybe the NI mux will be change to MPEG4 to give extra capacity.
If anyone in the north have Freeview and want to watch RTE, they may have to buy a new STB, Freeview STB at the moment is MPEG2, so could be a Freeview Ireland STB with MPEG4 T1 and Freeview Ireland HD will T2, depend on customer choices.
The sooner they sort out the agree format STB, the better. and the new logo for all Ireland.
Also it would help if the main PSB mux is SFN all over, so coverage to the maximum...
Just a guess...

lawhec · 03-02-2010 12:04am

Interesting memorandum. It makes sense for the switch-over on both sides of the border to be co-operative so that an All-Ireland plan can go smoothly. It's been done before when the FM Radio Band was reorganised in the late 80's on both sides. Obviously the approach has been for a trade-off, while the availability of RTÉ in Northern Ireland has a political element to it, BBC in the Republic has been more about the expansion of channel choice. One doesn't appear to be given on paper without another.

Coming in a little late to the thread, I would assume that the retransmissions would be free-to-air. The memorandum is vague, but from the northern end if RTÉ was only going to be made available on a pay basis, there will still be plenty who will put up the ironmongery southwards and still get it FTA where possible. Ditto the reverse.

The domestic BBC channels are only distributed for UK licence-fee payers (at least for terrestrial viewing) so an arrangement with BBC worldwide would need to be put in place if BBC NI domestic services are to be rolled out on DTT in the Republic. It isn't clear wherever this means it is just BBC 1 & 2 NI or if it will replace all of the BBC DTT offering currently broadcasting in Northern Ireland (except maybe Parliament). Obviously the BBC cannot make money out of this via advertisements, one possible way however might include the carriage of BBC World News alongside the domestic services with local advertisements during breaks.

UTV could in theory object, but unlikely in practice. It would be pointed out to them that they (in public at least) did not object to the presence of RTÉ being made available to cable (Virgin) and satellite (Sky) customers in Northern Ireland, therefore the addition of RTÉ services on a free-to-air basis terrestrially would be no effective defence (something about bolting a stable door) and RTÉ's right to broadcast would be protected under the EU Television without Frontiers directive. UTV would also run the risk of being counter-objected by RTÉ (with support from TV3) in the same manner in the Republic which in a worst-case scenario for UTV could see them being removed from cable and MMDS platforms. It would be a case of being careful what you wish for.

An Ofcom commissioned Arqiva document states that there is room for at least one additional multiplex from each of the three main transmitter sites in Northern Ireland (Divis, Limavady & Brougher Mountain). While these are intended for "local", these could be made available for RTÉ to broadcast with approval. It would be unlikely that other than a Divis multiplex there would be any desire for a local-run multiplex the same way they are being advertised in Britain (Is Channel M's multiplex on Winter Hill on air yet?). RTÉ could help pay for this coverage by leasing out spare bandwidth to other broadcasters that don't have carriage on any of the three UK COM multiplexes - the international news channels like DW-TV, France 24 etc. would probably be the most interested for the audience available.

In the Irish Republic there is spare multiplex allocation's available if required for BBC carriage though it may not be available until all analogue services are closed depending if One Vision ever does launch. If only BBC1 & 2 were carried, carriage on the current RTÉNL Multiplex may prove sufficient.

There is a possibility that DVB-T2 could be used in Northern Ireland for a MUX7 but it would only really be needed if the channels were carried as HD channels. If they were just being transmitted as SD then DVB-T MPEG2 would be fine for as long as it remains in tandem with other multiplexes. Current UK DTT broadcasting policy is for DVB-T MPEG2 for SD channels, DVB-T2 MPEG4 for HD. No point blurring lines.

If the Conservatives gain a majority in the next Westminster elections, I would say they have plenty of other things to be worrying about rather than try to cut into an international (and exceptional) agreement involving only a small part of the UK. It's not an effective issue for them as I can see.

I reckon the reason UTV and TV3 are not mentioned is that they are commercial channels with public service missions stipulated in their licences - BBC and RTÉ are fully fledged public service broadcasters though they achieve this in different ways.

Whoever suggested to forget about DTT in the Irish Republic and have RTÉ FTA on satellite - it's been long debated on these forums, RTÉ Free-to-air via satellite is a non runner. Cost of rights for imported programmes shown on RTÉ broadcasting to Northern Ireland is one matter, to cover beyond that into Britain and parts of mainland Europe is not practical, not to mention that some programming for cable and satellite viewers in Northern Ireland is blocked out - on a free-to-air basis, this would affect all viewers. Finally, RTÉ effectively transmits for free on Astra 2D with carriage paid for by Sky, they are at their helm.

My general line of thinking is similar to marclt stated about bringing some realism to potential plans, and I would say that the agreement on technical standards would see both the north and south in the long term converge to having DVB-T2 MPEG4 HD services (with some SD services for legacy broadcasters and interactive services) say at the end of this decade but that current DSO plans at least in Northern Ireland are too far advanced for convergence to be achieved in the short term. Remember that a STB or an IDTV which can decode MPEG4 video can do MPEG2 quite happily too.

Government agreement: Free-To-Air RTE in NI, BBC in RoI on DTT platform

Comments