Israel - Palestine History

RiteofPassage · 18-07-2014 9:30pm

No they didn't collectively help Britain. But Israel was created as a home for the "Jewish People" collectively, thanks to the influence of certain Jewish lobbyists and bankers.

Lets stick to the facts here.

One of the key principle of the Jewish religion is to help other members of the community in whatever way possible.

Zionists put their religion before any state nationality, and Zionists established Israel.

masculinist · 26-04-2018 3:24pm

RiteofPassage wrote: »

One of the key principle of the Jewish Muslim religion is to help other members of the community in whatever way possible.

That works too considering Mosques containing their own coffee shops , community centres, hair salons etc enable parallel societies to spring up

About the only suckers living in a post modern nihilistic hell are ordinary Irish. I think it gives us some objectivity.

*I'd like to continue the discussion but am not sure how old a thread has to be to be closed. I dont think its that old and its perennial topic.

James Brown · 26-04-2018 3:54pm

iMrApex wrote: »

Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians.

Mandatory Palestine was an entity under British administration, carved out of Ottoman Southern Syria after World War I. British civil administration in Palestine operated from 1920 until 1948. In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of Mandatory Palestine and formed Transjordan. Both were under British rule.
............

The same could be said about Ireland.
So unless a western recognised 'authority' deems a peoples land a state or country, the indigenous population have no human rights?
The people of that region where mostly nomadic, just because that doesn't fit into the take/own nature of the west doesn't mean they are landless or should be butchered.

iMrApex wrote: »

I'm trying to get across the point that Palestine was basically "created", it was never there. For example, France had West Francia, Germany had East Francia, Turkey had the Byzantine Empire, etc.
....

As regards Israel; it's a plantation 'state'. The only justification for it existing seems to be there use to be an Israel.
So if I say, take over parts of Iraq/Kuwait and Syria claiming I'm descended from Mesopotamians and I set up a Mesopotamian state, that would be cool?

All the western created 'legality' and red tape aside, stealing occupied land and constantly encroaching on the occupied land of others, with very questionable force, cannot be justified one bit. Israel is the aggressor in this scenario.

Gobble deGook · 06-05-2018 8:55pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The same could be said about Ireland.
So unless a western recognised 'authority' deems a peoples land a state or country, the indigenous population have no human rights?
The people of that region where mostly nomadic, just because that doesn't fit into the take/own nature of the west doesn't mean they are landless or should be butchered.

As regards Israel; it's a plantation 'state'. The only justification for it existing seems to be there use to be an Israel.
So if I say, take over parts of Iraq/Kuwait and Syria claiming I'm descended from Mesopotamians and I set up a Mesopotamian state, that would be cool?

All the western created 'legality' and red tape aside, stealing occupied land and constantly encroaching on the occupied land of others, with very questionable force, cannot be justified one bit. Israel is the aggressor in this scenario.

But in fairness there were Jews living in that land for millennia - and Arabs too of course
But as Jews were migrated from lands in Europe and the ME that they were dispossessed of, Arabs came to what is now Israel to take up jobs there.
So both populations increased as Jews migrated to what is now Israel.

feargale · 06-05-2018 9:03pm

Gobble deGook wrote: »

But in fairness there were Jews living in that land for millennia - and Arabs too of course
But as Jews were migrated from lands in Europe and the ME that they were dispossessed of, Arabs came to what is now Israel to take up jobs there.
So both populations increased as Jews migrated to what is now Israel.

Could you give us a historical timeline on this? Also some DNA evidence might be helpful. Because I have yet to see any evidence to show that a great many of the Muslims in Israel/Palestine are not descended from Jews who converted

Gobble deGook · 06-05-2018 9:16pm

feargale wrote: »

Could you give us a historical timeline on this? Also some DNA evidence might be helpful. Because I have yet to see any evidence to show that a great many of the Muslims in Israel/Palestine are descended from Jews who converted

I wouldn't have time to write a book about it but there is a fair amount of evidence to show that Arabs migrated to Israel as job opportunities arose from Jewish enterprise.
A lot of the issues come up here
jpost.com/Blogs/Why-World-Opinion-Matters/Are-Arabs-the-indigenous-people-of-Palestine-402785

James Brown · 07-05-2018 4:59pm

Gobble deGook wrote: »

But in fairness there were Jews living in that land for millennia - and Arabs too of course
But as Jews were migrated from lands in Europe and the ME that they were dispossessed of, Arabs came to what is now Israel to take up jobs there.
So both populations increased as Jews migrated to what is now Israel.

So that justifies a mainly European influx of foreign nationals, to set up a state and steal land from the people living there? The narrative you describe is a fairytale. Must be tough to speak of Israel as a finite entity, as it continues to illegally expand leaving bodies in its wake.

feargale · 07-05-2018 6:46pm

Gobble deGook wrote: »

I wouldn't have time to write a book about it but there is a fair amount of evidence to show that Arabs migrated to Israel as job opportunities arose from Jewish enterprise.
A lot of the issues come up here
jpost.com/Blogs/Why-World-Opinion-Matters/Are-Arabs-the-indigenous-people-of-Palestine-402785

You mean just like Australian aborigines, Zulus and indigenous North Americans came into town to work on land that was stolen from their kind?

Since this is supposed to have happened in Israel/Palestine almost within living memory, surely figures and historical corroboration exists?

ShowMeTheCash · 11-05-2018 11:29am

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So that justifies a mainly European influx of foreign nationals, to set up a state and steal land from the people living there? The narrative you describe is a fairytale. Must be tough to speak of Israel as a finite entity, as it continues to illegally expand leaving bodies in its wake.

Just to second this.
The idea that American Jews, UK Jews, Jews living in Europe who have lived there for generations many and most have never even been to the middle-east have some right to go back to the "promise" land because they seem to think they have a direct link to people who where displaced 1700 years ago is crazy!

I was watching the UK question time a few weeks back.
And I have to agree with something that was said and this goes to the heart of this anti-Semite scandal in the labor party in the UK.

Any criticism of the actions of the Israeli government becomes a conversation about antisemitism... Why?

It seems that conversation about Israel cannot be had

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 11-05-2018 11:22pm

Great conference over the next two days in Dublin with knowledgeable speakers. Worth checking out
https://palestinianfreedom.wordpress.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC6dWSmpqQs

masculinist · 12-05-2018 3:31pm

I've seen figures which indicate more Jews were expelled from neighbouring Arab countries who fled into Israel than there are Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza. Those Jews and their descendants now live in Israel . They are legitimately from that region. So this notion that the Jews should somehow ''return'' to Europe is ridiculous. Muslims are giving troubles all over Europe yet none of the 'death to Israel' crowd are suggesting Arabs return to Arabia.
Now on the other hand , I've seen many clips of Palestinians wanting to murder every man , woman and child in Israel if they drop their weapons and tear down their walls. And Hamas attacks are aimed at civilians and Israeli kindergardens, either blowing up all the Israeli kids or knifing all the Israeli kids. If that doesnt turn your stomach I dont know what would ...
From a purely Humanitarian position, all these Irish BDS idiots need to stop enabling stupidity and attacks against Israeli civilians and -the Palestinians need to get rid of Hamas, recognize Israel and get on with their lives. Instead they're deliberately using their children as human shields to launch attacks from behind them. If someone launches a rocket from a location they can fully expect a rocket being returned to them because thats how wars work. War is disgusting and horrible and should be avoided however ... it is what it is . Is Paddy dopey or what in supporting children being used as a human shields ? Ive yet to see any form of solution from the BDS crowd apart from death to Israel. Like thats going to be the basis for any sort of peace. If Irish people held onto their grudges over the North , thered still be unending war up there. And even for the likes of me who had no connection with the North , I still felt annoyed at giving up articles 2 and 3 but took it on the chin for the greater good. The BDS crowd need to learn a lesson from the Irish peace process. There needs to be a set of ''mitchell principles'' . The Palestinians had a deal offered in the 90s and rejected it in favor of hate. They choose war. Thats what I see. And when you choose war you dont expect your enemy to lie down.

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 12-05-2018 6:25pm

The BDS movement is modeled on the other well know apartheid regime of South Africa where it was very successful. BDS has been endorsed by the majority of trade unions in Ireland. The apartheid state of Israel spends millions trying to combat BDS so it must be doing something right

Day two of conference on tomorrow, some great speakers lined up
https://palestinianfreedom.wordpress.com

masculinist · 12-05-2018 8:19pm

Genesis Ancient Stipend wrote: »

The BDS movement is modeled on the other well know apartheid regime of South Africa where it was very successful.

South Africa today as a case study is interesting with uncountable rapes and murders of white South Africans. Their black government politicians openly singing songs about genocide of the whites and their land being stolen from them, land which they cleared , tilled and settled where no black people had ever been since the dawn of time. So much for truth and reconciliation.

BDS is nothing else but a cover for genocide of Jewish people. Meanwhile ....

1) Palestinians are being used as pawns by Hamas,
2)Palestinians are being used as pawns by the Arab states who declared war on Israel on their behalf yet lay all the consequences onto Palestinians themselves through Apartheid systems against Palestinians
3) Palestinians are being used as pawns by Western Marxists who support Hamas the same way they have supported the failed dictatorship of Venezuela where Venezuelans cant buy toilet paper and resort to cannibalism for survive.

Irish Unions are morons. None of the above care for the Palestinian people or their children who are used as human shields and human bombs when a peaceful alternative which they reject is available. And while this nonsense continues, the way wars work is the aggressor gets thrown out. So the settlements will continue . Why wouldnt they continue ? Thats how Arabs intended to behave when all the Arab countries tried to invade Israel and destroy it. The only way settlements can be stopped or reversed is to sit down at the negotiating table and this has to be done before its too late.

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 12-05-2018 9:05pm

Ireland is one of the leading European countries when it comes to solidarity with the Palestinian cause, hopefully they can get some basic human rights and build from there. No doubt the Irish people see the parallels with our own history of the plantation and subjugation etc

masculinist · 12-05-2018 10:48pm

Genesis Ancient Stipend wrote: »

Ireland is one of the leading European countries when it comes to solidarity with the Palestinian cause, hopefully they can get some basic human rights and build from there. No doubt the Irish people see the parallels with our own history of the plantation and subjugation etc

The Palestinians led by Hamas are attacking civilians and kindergardens with rockets and knifing children in Israel. They want a second holocaust. A real genocide. How is there any parallel with Irish people there ? The IRA made many huge mistakes but its focus was on military targets.
The Palestinians are using their children as shields for rocket attacks on Israeli kindergardens and civilians . Since when was that an Irish trait ?
The Irish have been duped, As an Irishman I am willing to lend my support to a strategy which introduces the ballot box and the negotiating table but as a citizen of a neutral country I am horrified by paddys ignorance in taking sides in a horrific war. If Paddy takes sides he should at least take the side of negotiations. Hamas refuses to negotiate anything. Not a thing. So Paddy is supporting a war mongering fascist organization. And I believe that when I take sides against Hamas I am taking sides with the Palestinian people because they are losing their war badly. No amount of force will ever dislodge Israel. Israel has nukes. They wont introduce them first but they wont leave an Israel behind for anyone who genocides them from it .

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 12-05-2018 11:39pm

Amnesty International has some great reports on the situation in the apartheid state, well worth reading.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

since Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian Territories and the start of the 11th year of its illegal blockade of the Gaza Strip, subjecting approximately 2 million inhabitants to collective punishment and a growing humanitarian crisis. The Israeli authorities intensified expansion of settlements and related infrastructure across the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and severely restricted the freedom of movement of Palestinians. Israeli forces unlawfully killed Palestinian civilians, including children, and unlawfully detained within Israel thousands of Palestinians from the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), holding hundreds in administrative detention without charge or trial. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees, including children, remained pervasive and was committed with impunity. Israel continued to demolish Palestinian homes in the West Bank and in Palestinian villages inside Israel, forcibly evicting residents. Conscientious objectors to military service were imprisoned. Thousands of African asylum-seekers were threatened with deportation.

masculinist · 13-05-2018 12:12am

Genesis Ancient Stipend wrote: »

Amnesty International has some great reports on the situation in the apartheid state, well worth reading.

Blockade my arse. Anyone would put up a huge wall if their kids were being stabbed and their kindergardens blown up with rockets. Thats why Israel has a border. Because not to have a border would be suicide. But theres no blockade. A blockade would imply that Israel controlled the Egyptian border. Israel offered to give Gaza to Egypt along with the Sinai peninsula and Egypt wouldn't take them despite having started a war for them. You do realise that Gaza had a border with Egypt right ????

I'm ashamed to say this about my fellow Irishman but BDS virtue signalling Paddy apparently knows nothing about geography. How in the name of all thats holy could Israel blockade a border which it doesnt even touch with its own territory ?
Why do the Egyptians blockade Gaza ? Why do Egyptians blockade their fellow Arabs in Gaza ? Egypt has a huge border with Gaza.
Why did Egyptians not even give citizenship to Palestinians who had a Egyptian mother ? Why is the whole Arab world practicing apartheid against Palestinians ?

Amnesty international is a ridiculous organization with nothing to say about the biggest human rights abusers in the world , all of whom are Israels neighbours.

And shamefully nobody is arguing for the best interests of the Palestinians which is to stop using their children as human shields and raise them properly with the help of the massive international aid which has flown into those territories and been siphoned off for terrorism.

vicwatson · 13-05-2018 12:18am

masculinist wrote: »

Blockade my arse. Anyone would put up a huge wall if their kids were being stabbed and their kindergardens blown up with rockets. Thats why Israel has a border. Because not to have a border would be suicide. But theres no blockade. A blockade would imply that Israel controlled the Egyptian border. Israel offered to give Gaza to Egypt along with the Sinai peninsula and Egypt wouldn't take them despite having started a war for them. You do realise that Gaza had a border with Egypt right ????

I'm ashamed to say this about my fellow Irishman but BDS virtue signalling Paddy apparently knows nothing about geography. How in the name of all thats holy could Israel blockade a border which it doesnt even touch with its own territory ?
Why do the Egyptians blockade Gaza ? Why do Egyptians blockade their fellow Arabs in Gaza ? Egypt has a huge border with Gaza.
Why did Egyptians not even give citizenship to Palestinians who had a Egyptian mother ? Why is the whole Arab world practicing apartheid against Palestinians ?

Amnesty international is a ridiculous organization with nothing to say about the biggest human rights abusers in the world , all of whom are Israels neighbours.

And shamefully nobody is arguing for the best interests of the Palestinians which is to stop using their children as human shields and raise them properly with the help of the massive international aid which has flown into those territories and been siphoned off for terrorism.

Have a beer and chill out, yis won the Eurovision, chill

vicwatson · 13-05-2018 12:19am

Ooh you edited before I replied

masculinist · 13-05-2018 12:23am

vicwatson wrote: »

Have a beer and chill out, yis won the Eurovision, chill

whos yis ?

I started researching this situation and thats what I concluded. Now Im out and about to see if anyone can change my mind about this topic.

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-05-2018 12:32am

masculinist wrote: »

The Palestinians led by Hamas are attacking civilians and kindergardens with rockets and knifing children in Israel. They want a second holocaust. A real genocide. How is there any parallel with Irish people there ? The IRA made many huge mistakes but its focus was on military targets.
The Palestinians are using their children as shields for rocket attacks on Israeli kindergardens and civilians . Since when was that an Irish trait ?
The Irish have been duped, As an Irishman I am willing to lend my support to a strategy which introduces the ballot box and the negotiating table but as a citizen of a neutral country I am horrified by paddys ignorance in taking sides in a horrific war. If Paddy takes sides he should at least take the side of negotiations. Hamas refuses to negotiate anything. Not a thing. So Paddy is supporting a war mongering fascist organization. And I believe that when I take sides against Hamas I am taking sides with the Palestinian people because they are losing their war badly. No amount of force will ever dislodge Israel. Israel has nukes. They wont introduce them first but they wont leave an Israel behind for anyone who genocides them from it .

Something tells me that you are not Irish, I just can't put my finger on it

:rolleyes:

masculinist · 13-05-2018 12:35am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Something tells me that you are not Irish, I just can't put my finger on it :rolleyes:

ridiculous . Thats why I'm calling out the thicks . Address my points . I went to the trouble of looking this conflict up . Paddy is either an insult to be ashamed of or a badge of pride. It depends how you wear it .

RustyNut · 13-05-2018 1:03am

masculinist wrote: »

The Palestinians led by Hamas are attacking civilians and kindergardens with rockets and knifing children in Israel.

Meanwhile the zionist terrorists murder children as and when it suits them

JERUSALEM -- On the morning of Oct. 5, Iman Hams, a slight girl of 13 wearing a school uniform and toting a backpack crammed with books, wandered past an Israeli military outpost on the Gaza Strip's southern border with Egypt.

The Israeli captain on duty alerted his troops to reports of a suspicious figure about 100 yards from the outpost. Soldiers fired into the air, according to radio transmissions, military court documents and witnesses.

Iman Hams's relatives mourn at the family house during her funeral last month in the Rafah refugee camp. She had been shot at least 20 times. (Khalil Hamra -- AP)

"It's a little girl," a soldier watching from a nearby Israeli observation post cautioned over the military radio. "She's running defensively eastward. . . . A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

Four minutes later, Israeli troops opened fire on the girl with machine guns and rifles, the radio transmissions indicated. The captain walked to the spot where the girl "was lying down" and fired two bullets from his M-16 assault rifle into her head, according to an indictment against the officer. He started to walk away, but pivoted, set his rifle on automatic and emptied his magazine into the girl's prone body, the indictment alleged.

"This is Commander," the captain said into the radio when he was finished. "Whoever dares to move in the area, even if it's a 3-year-old -- you have to kill him. Over."

The girl's body was peppered with at least 20 bullets, including seven in her head, said Ali Mousa, a physician who is director of the Rafah hospital where her corpse was examined.

masculinist wrote: »

The Palestinians are using their children as shields for rocket attacks on Israeli kindergardens and civilians .

Meanwhile the terrorist idf use Palestinian children as human shields.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRQcTPIaETE

masculinist wrote: »

No amount of force will ever dislodge Israel. Israel has nukes. They wont introduce them first but they wont leave an Israel behind for anyone who genocides them from it .

Meanwhile the zionists carry on committing their reprehensible war crimes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO7Am6sapxY

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 13-05-2018 8:25am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Something tells me that you are not Irish, I just can't put my finger on it :rolleyes:

It's well known that Israel pays an army of online hasbara trolls, it's not worth debating them.

http://www.thejournal.ie/israel-pro-israel-messages-social-media-1036815-Aug2013/

http://left.wikia.com/wiki/Hasbara_troll

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/The-Goyim-Guide-to-Hasbara-Trolls-from-Jonathon-Blakeley22nov11.shtml

masculinist · 13-05-2018 9:34am

I have had this account for years and years and dont remember ever touching upon this subject before. To accuse others of trolling because you dislike their facts is in itself the definition of trolling.

Genesis Ancient Stipend wrote: »

It's well known that Israel pays an army of online hasbara trolls, it's not worth debating them.

I heard about this many times. Theres an online presence for every group in the world. However its useless information if you're using it to avoid accountability for your actions which is something I believe you're doing when you accuse others of being trolls.
The very essence of what youre doing above is trying to drag Irish people into wars which are none of their business using selectively edited propaganda videos therefore you could be accused of not only not being Irish but of being a foreign agent or an agent of a foreign agent. I have taken the superior humanitarian position. I have seen the videos and stories already which you posted . Hamas sends children with backpacks full of explosives towards Israeli civilians. Then they blame Israel for trying to keep a wall between them. Or they blame Israel for demanding Palestinians keep their children out of a firing range when its 100% possible for Palestinians to be completely safe by staying out of a firing range . Thats the context. No sane Irish person would send their kids onto the army lands in the curragh because of the firing range and large warnings signs everywhere. And if they did , the public wouldnt be blaming the army. Theyd be blaming the psychopathic parents.

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 13-05-2018 10:55am

Some select info from human rights watch

The Israeli government continued to enforce severe and discriminatory restrictions on Palestinians’ human rights; restrict the movement of people and goods into and out of the Gaza Strip; and facilitate the unlawful transfer of Israeli citizens to settlements in the occupied West Bank.

In February, the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, passed the Regularization Law, which allows Israel to retroactively expropriate private Palestinian land on which settlements have been built

Israel operates a two-tiered system in the West Bank that provides preferential treatment to Israeli settlers while imposing harsh conditions on Palestinians.

Israeli authorities destroyed 381 homes and other property, forcibly displacing 588 people as of November 6, in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as part of discriminatory practices

Human rights watch is a good read which gives a look at the situation on the ground from a humanitarian perspective. No doubt the hasbara troll will slander this org like amnesty and any other org that doesn't agree with the apartheid regimes atrocities.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/israel/palestine

ancapailldorcha · 13-05-2018 3:10pm

Post deleted. This forum is not a repository for Youtube videos.

Odhinn · 13-05-2018 3:30pm

masculinist wrote: »

South Africa today as a case study is interesting with uncountable rapes and murders of white South Africans. Their black government politicians openly singing songs about genocide of the whites and their land being stolen from them, land which they cleared , tilled and settled where no black people had ever been since the dawn of time. So much for truth and reconciliation.

There's little point engaging with white supremacist nonsense.

masculinist wrote: »

1) Palestinians are being used as pawns by Hamas,

.

Hamas is a faction that controls Gaza. The majority of palestinians neither live in Gaza or support Hamas.

masculinist wrote: »

None of the above care for the Palestinian people or their children who are used as human shields and human bombs when a peaceful alternative which they reject is available. .

Whaqt is the "peaceful alternative" that's available?

Odhinn · 13-05-2018 3:38pm

masculinist wrote: »

whos yis ?

I started researching this situation and thats what I concluded. Now Im out and about to see if anyone can change my mind about this topic.

I'd suggest more research is called for. To whit -
https://www.btselem.org/topic/settlements

https://www.btselem.org/topic/accountability

http://rhr.org.il/eng/about-legal-department-2/

You might get back to me on israeli expansionism and the settler movement.

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 14-05-2018 1:45pm

Another massacre today by the apartheid state of Israel, 40 people so far, women and children included. Many more injured

Israel - Palestine History

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