8th Amendment

Gael23 · 24-05-2015 6:45pm #1

Will we ever see a referendum to repeal this?

Black Menorca · 24-05-2015 8:32pm

I sincerely hope not. A lot will depend on the make up of the next government. If we have an FF/FG coalition we'll be safe.

But given the success of the marriage referendum, I can see it coming in a few years time if Labour and or SF are part of the executive.

One of the big questions for me will be what proponents of the 8th's removal will replace it with?

Gael23 · 24-05-2015 8:43pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

But given the success of the marriage referendum, I can see it coming in a few years time if Labour and or SF are part of the executive.

Thats inevitable that one or both will be. Labour are going to get an almighty hammering but it really hinges on the performance of SF and FF as to weather or not Labour will have a place in it.
The next coalition won't last long as it will involve either 3 parties or 2 parties backed by INDs so there may not be time to put it through.
I sont know what the 8th would be replaced with

Black Menorca · 24-05-2015 8:47pm

I think Labour will lose seats but might not be wiped out.

To avoid SF getting into power we could well see FG/FF going in together with a majority.

P_1 · 24-05-2015 9:12pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

I sincerely hope not. A lot will depend on the make up of the next government. If we have an FF/FG coalition we'll be safe.

But given the success of the marriage referendum, I can see it coming in a few years time if Labour and or SF are part of the executive.

One of the big questions for me will be what proponents of the 8th's removal will replace it with?

Nobody of child bearing age had the right to vote on this. For issues like this we really should be having a referendum each generation

Black Menorca · 24-05-2015 9:17pm

P_1 wrote: »

Nobody of child bearing age had the right to vote on this. For issues like this we really should be having a referendum each generation

Should we re-visit the divorce decision every 20 years also? Lisbon, Childrens' rights, the Right to Travel etc?

P_1 · 24-05-2015 9:21pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Should we re-visit the divorce decision every 20 years also? Lisbon, Childrens' rights, the Right to Travel etc?

Wouldn't do any harm to be honest, always good to reaffirm what we want in our society each generation or so

Black Menorca · 24-05-2015 9:23pm

P_1 wrote: »

Wouldn't do any harm to be honest, always good to reaffirm what we want in our society each generation or so

I'm not knocking your idea by the way. I just wonder how practical it would be and where the cut off point would be.

Could you imagine the Liberal elites putting Divorce back on a referendum ballot paper?

P_1 · 24-05-2015 9:27pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

I'm not knocking your idea by the way. I just wonder how practical it would be and where the cut off point would be.

Could you imagine the Liberal elites putting Divorce back on a referendum ballot paper?

I'd suggest the vote not to be a simple yes/no poll rather a keep as it is/revisit poll.

It'll make our democracy a bit more healthy, rather relying on charlatans who will basically say anything to get their 5 year terms.

Glenman · 25-05-2015 9:12am

Labour say they will push for it if they are part of the next Government. Vote Pro Life.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 9:20am

Glenman wrote: »

Labour say they will push for it if they are part of the next Government. Vote Pro Life.

I will be voting Labour in the next GE, but will be fighting them tooth and nail on any change to the 8th that could liberalise abortion.

Labour have lots of qualities on economic and many social issues.

There is no dichotomy in supporting them in a GE for their overall policy make up and opposing them vigorously on certain issues.

I am passionately pro-life and will remain so for as long as I'm on this planet.

Thankfully on the 8th, FF have said they will not make repealing the 8th a priority and I can't see FG doing so either.

The real abortion industry would need a majority Left administration to have any hope. But I may be wrong.

galljga1 · 25-05-2015 9:30am

Gael23 wrote: »

Thats inevitable that one or both will be. Labour are going to get an almighty hammering but it really hinges on the performance of SF and FF as to weather or not Labour will have a place in it.
The next coalition won't last long as it will involve either 3 parties or 2 parties backed by INDs so there may not be time to put it through.
I sont know what the 8th would be replaced with

Legislation.

fits · 25-05-2015 9:45am

I will vote labour if they make this referendum happen.
A personal contact had to travel to abort a much wanted but fatally abnormal foetus. There is no way she could have carried to term. They brought foetus home in boot of car to bury. Current system is absolutely cruel and heartless.
These decisions should be between woman, partner and doctors and noone else.

seamus · 25-05-2015 10:01am

P_1 wrote: »

I'd suggest the vote not to be a simple yes/no poll rather a keep as it is/revisit poll.

It'll make our democracy a bit more healthy, rather relying on charlatans who will basically say anything to get their 5 year terms.

A keep/revisit poll seems like a lot of effort considering that then you need to draft a new amendment and vote on it...again.

I think a citizen's initiative scheme would be a far better idea. While the constitutional convention was a nice idea, at the end of the day the population had no say on what would and wouldn't be up for referendum.

Something whereby you "register" an initiative with an independent body (like RefCom), and then you have 6 months to gather 500,000 signatures (plucking figures from the air here). Succeed in that, and the government is required to put it to referendum within the next 2 years.

I would limit it specifically to constitutional matters - adding/amending/removing articles - rather than any old initiative like, "Legalise marijuana".

Likewise for me, if Labour put repealing the 8th high on their agenda for the next government, that'll bump them up my list a good bit.

Godge · 25-05-2015 10:45am

galljga1 wrote: »

Legislation.

I absolutely 100% agree.

Family, marriage, abortion etc. should be left out of the Constitution.

It should be pared back to basics.

A new Constitution for Ireland should set out the respective roles of the judiciary, the legislature, the Executive and the President. Separation of powers being the important consideration.

Beyond that, it should be pared back, containing aspirations rather than prescriptions as we have seen the damage a poorly worded 8th amendment can do.

P_1 · 25-05-2015 11:10am

seamus wrote: »

A keep/revisit poll seems like a lot of effort considering that then you need to draft a new amendment and vote on it...again.

I think a citizen's initiative scheme would be a far better idea. While the constitutional convention was a nice idea, at the end of the day the population had no say on what would and wouldn't be up for referendum.

Something whereby you "register" an initiative with an independent body (like RefCom), and then you have 6 months to gather 500,000 signatures (plucking figures from the air here). Succeed in that, and the government is required to put it to referendum within the next 2 years.

I would limit it specifically to constitutional matters - adding/amending/removing articles - rather than any old initiative like, "Legalise marijuana".

Likewise for me, if Labour put repealing the 8th high on their agenda for the next government, that'll bump them up my list a good bit.

True it might be a tad unwieldy but ultimately I'd consider it a fairer system of democracy than the watered down version we have where it is led from whoever happens to be in power.

Glenman · 25-05-2015 11:18am

fits wrote: »

I will vote labour if they make this referendum happen.
A personal contact had to travel to abort a much wanted but fatally abnormal foetus. There is no way she could have carried to term. They brought foetus home in boot of car to bury. Current system is absolutely cruel and heartless.
These decisions should be between woman, partner and doctors and noone else.

This will be like the SSM, everyone has a different opinion, I believe that God gave life and only he should take it away.

fits · 25-05-2015 11:23am

Glenman wrote: »

This will be like the SSM, everyone has a different opinion, I believe that God gave life and only he should take it away.

Can you try to imagine yourself in my friends position? I mean really try. Going to work every day with a growing bump, with a foetus that cannot survive outside the womb. Can you imagine answering all the questions about when you are due etc. Telling all your friends and family again and again and again? You are already forty and each month that passes goes against your chances of a successful pregnancy. Life is not black and white.

Glenman · 25-05-2015 11:56am

fits wrote: »

Can you try to imagine yourself in my friends position? I mean really try. Going to work every day with a growing bump, with a foetus that cannot survive outside the womb. Can you imagine answering all the questions about when you are due etc. Telling all your friends and family again and again and again? You are already forty and each month that passes goes against your chances of a successful pregnancy. Life is not black and white.

Yes, I agree, it's easy for me to make judgments when I am not in the situation.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 3:04pm

galljga1 wrote: »

Legislation.

What form of legislation?

Gael23 · 25-05-2015 3:07pm

I would back legislation but wouldn't there still have to be a referendum to repeal the 8th?

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 3:09pm

Any move to liberalise Abortion in this country will be met with an avalanche of opposition.

FreudianSlippers · 25-05-2015 3:17pm

I'm not necessarily sure we need to repeal the 8th - it's so vague and aspirational that most legislation could work within it.

I particularly find the law in England & Wales well worded:

Section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967

Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -

(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

Zubeneschamali · 25-05-2015 3:28pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Any move to liberalise Abortion in this country will be met with an avalanche of opposition.

Given the fact that our Constitution guarantees abortion on demand for the price of a city break in the UK, I can't see many people taking on that avalanche of insanity just to make abortion available on an equal basis to immigrants, institutionalized women and the very poor.

No Voter And Proud · 25-05-2015 4:25pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

I sincerely hope not. A lot will depend on the make up of the next government. If we have an FF/FG coalition we'll be safe.

But given the success of the marriage referendum, I can see it coming in a few years time if Labour and or SF are part of the executive.

One of the big questions for me will be what proponents of the 8th's removal will replace it with?

I agree, unfortunately it seems the way things are going.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:16pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm not necessarily sure we need to repeal the 8th - it's so vague and aspirational that most legislation could work within it.

I particularly find the law in England & Wales well worded:

Section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967

Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -

(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

The same UK law that allows 200,000 abortions a year? No thanks.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:18pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Given the fact that our Constitution guarantees abortion on demand for the price of a city break in the UK, I can't see many people taking on that avalanche of insanity just to make abortion available on an equal basis to immigrants, institutionalized women and the very poor.

Just as Ireland is a beacon of hope for Gay people around the world, so to is Ireland a beacon of hope for advocates of Life.

The 8th Amendment, combined with the X Case legislation is a wonderful bullwark against the evils of the abortion industry.

Penny Tration · 25-05-2015 5:20pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

The same UK law that allows 200,000 abortions a year? No thanks.

Yes please.

If Labour are going to push to repeal the 8th amendment, I'll more than likely give them my vote instead of spoiling my vote.

No Voter And Proud · 25-05-2015 5:21pm

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

Yes please.

If Labour are going to push to repeal the 8th amendment, I'll more than likely give them my vote instead of spoiling my vote.

Thankfully there are enough sensible people in the country that abortion on demand like in the UK will never happen - not in our lifetimes anyway - here.

So go vote in the lefties all you want, won't matter.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:21pm

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I agree, unfortunately it seems the way things are going.

Micháel Martin has assued us that it won't be part of an FF programme for Government, I can't see Enda prioritising it either.

Now an SF or Labour would insist on it as part of a coalition deal so we may well have to face up to an attack on unborn life in the coming years.

But an FF/FG arrangement would secure things for now..

But a referendum is more likely than not.

In that circumstance, a defeat of said proposal would wrap it up for another 20 years.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:23pm

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

Yes please.

If Labour are going to push to repeal the 8th amendment, I'll more than likely give them my vote instead of spoiling my vote.

I will be voting Labour so happy days. Labour in Government is the best bet for the working class in this country.

But I'll be fighting a repeal of the 8th for the time of the campaign, if it comes to pass.

Penny Tration · 25-05-2015 5:23pm

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Thankfully there are enough sensible people in the country that abortion on demand like in the UK will never happen - not in our lifetimes anyway - here.

So go vote in the lefties all you want, won't matter.

You think there is. You don't know it.

Abortion on demand isn't available in the UK, btw.

No Voter And Proud · 25-05-2015 5:25pm

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

You think there is. You don't know it.

Abortion on demand isn't available in the UK, btw.

Abortion on demand is available in the UK.
You can't just say something doesnt exist when it does.

You call up, ask ("demand") an abortion, and one is supplied. Often times it's free in the NHS.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:27pm

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

You think there is. You don't know it.

Abortion on demand isn't available in the UK, btw.

I think a referndum to remove the right to life of unborn babies and to be replaced with legislation to liberalise abortion would be defeated 60-40.

However the pro liberalisation side will use the tragic cases of FFA as the thin end of the wedge.

Once abortion is sanctions in these circumstances, its only a matter of time until more and more reasons will be condoned.

That will be a core arguement of the Life side. Once is, we can never take it back.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:28pm

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

You think there is. You don't know it.

Abortion on demand isn't available in the UK, btw.

In fairness, lets be honest on both sides here. Abortion is available widely in the UK.

Zubeneschamali · 25-05-2015 5:39pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

The 8th Amendment, combined with the X Case legislation is a wonderful bullwark against the evils of the abortion industry.

The 8th amendment actually legalized abortion in this country, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:42pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The 8th amendment actually legalized abortion in this country, so I'm not sure what your point is.

The 8th enshrines the equal right to life of mother and unborn baby, while X confirms the intentional taking of unborn life as a serious crime.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating to be honest. How many cases of intentional taking of unborn life have occurred on Irish soil since X was legislated for?

I don't know of one case.

desertcircus · 25-05-2015 5:43pm

Referenda in Ireland that split opinion between a basically conservative position and a basically liberal one have historically tended to be fairly tight. After Saturday, though, the assumption that another abortion referendum would be a 51-49 affair is dead in the water. The numbers voting No to gay marriage were almost identical to the numbers who voted No to divorce, but population growth in the intervening two decades fell almost entirely on the liberal side of the spectrum. Abortion and gay rights aren't issues with perfect overlap, and it's possible that the Eighth could survive a referendum, but at the moment I'd say a repeal would probably pass.

Zubeneschamali · 25-05-2015 5:44pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

How many cases of intentional taking of unborn life have occurred on Irish soil since X was legislated for?

I don't know of one case.

I wasn't aware they had to put a notice in the paper.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:45pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Referenda in Ireland that split opinion between a basically conservative position and a basically liberal one have historically tended to be fairly tight. After Saturday, though, the assumption that another abortion referendum would be a 51-49 affair is dead in the water. The numbers voting No to gay marriage were almost identical to the numbers who voted No to divorce, but population growth in the intervening two decades fell almost entirely on the liberal side of the spectrum. Abortion and gay rights aren't issues with perfect overlap, and it's possible that the Eighth could survive a referendum, but at the moment I'd say a repeal would probably pass.

As you say, it would be hard to make a direct correlation between the Yes last week to a Yes for more liberal abortion.

At least I sincerely hope so.

There will also be a lot more support for the 8th in Public life.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:46pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I wasn't aware they had to put a notice in the paper.

Thats true of course, but there doesn't seems to be many actual cases as of yet, over a year since X was passed in the Dáil.

Zubeneschamali · 25-05-2015 5:47pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Thats true of course, but there doesn't seems to be many actual cases as of yet, over a year since X was passed in the Dáil.

How do you know?

seamus · 25-05-2015 5:48pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Referenda in Ireland that split opinion between a basically conservative position and a basically liberal one have historically tended to be fairly tight. After Saturday, though, the assumption that another abortion referendum would be a 51-49 affair is dead in the water. The numbers voting No to gay marriage were almost identical to the numbers who voted No to divorce, but population growth in the intervening two decades fell almost entirely on the liberal side of the spectrum. Abortion and gay rights aren't issues with perfect overlap, and it's possible that the Eighth could survive a referendum, but at the moment I'd say a repeal would probably pass.

I'm not sure. I know plenty of people who would have fought tooth and nail campaigning for SSM who would be a strong "No" on anything abortion related.

It's a very complicated issue, legally and socially, so all the "No" side would have to do is claim that repealing the eighth will instantly lead to one-hour abortion clinics and mass graves of dead babies, and a lot of people won't look past the issues to see why the 8th is such an horrendous amendment.

Hell, there's already one poster in this thread banging on about abortion on demand. Imagine that, but times 10,000.

Penny Tration · 25-05-2015 5:48pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

In fairness, lets be honest on both sides here. Abortion is available widely in the UK.

It's available widely, yeah.

It's not available on demand.

If it were, it would be unrestricted.

You cannot get an abortion 'on demand' after 24 weeks.

So nope, not available on demand.

Widely available, yes.

Zubeneschamali · 25-05-2015 5:51pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Rit's possible that the Eighth could survive a referendum, but at the moment I'd say a repeal would probably pass.

No chance. Young voters n general saw no reason why ssm should not be allowed. This is not at all true of abortion.

At one point in this campaign, someone stuck a pro-SSM image up instead of Youth Defence's homepage, and they basically said they didn't care - they had no horse in this one. Very different from their attitude to abortion.

volchitsa · 25-05-2015 5:56pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

The 8th enshrines the equal right to life of mother and unborn baby, while X confirms the intentional taking of unborn life as a serious crime.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating to be honest. How many cases of intentional taking of unborn life have occurred on Irish soil since X was legislated for?

I don't know of one case.

But if you think what matters is preventing Irish babies being aborted, what does it matter where that happens?

While there's a legal right to travel for an abortion, you can't fool anyone that it isn't happening. So you only care about maintaining the fiction, and don't give a hoot about the reality of it.

volchitsa · 25-05-2015 5:58pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Thats true of course, but there doesn't seems to be many actual cases as of yet, over a year since X was passed in the Dáil.

The first report isn't due until the end of June. We'll have a better idea then.

Anyway, if you think abortion is murder, what difference does it make where Irish women have these abortions?

If I killed you on holiday in the UK, you'd still be dead, no?

desertcircus · 25-05-2015 6:23pm

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure. I know plenty of people who would have fought tooth and nail campaigning for SSM who would be a strong "No" on anything abortion related.

It's a very complicated issue, legally and socially, so all the "No" side would have to do is claim that repealing the eighth will instantly lead to one-hour abortion clinics and mass graves of dead babies, and a lot of people won't look past the issues to see why the 8th is such an horrendous amendment.

Hell, there's already one poster in this thread banging on about abortion on demand. Imagine that, but times 10,000.

I know abortion would be a lot more contentious, but gay marriage passed by 300,000 votes. If we treat "liberalising marriage law" as a rough category to cover divorce and gay marriage, then the liberal side of the argument captured pretty much 100% of population growth over the past twenty years - I doubt that attitudes to abortion have followed the same trajectory, but we'd need a more or less 50/50 split in attitudes to abortion among those 300,000 extra marriage-liberal voters for a repeal of the 8th to go down to the wire. I'd suspect that the anti-abortion campaign, if it is already gearing up, is operating on the assumption that it's already at a significant disadvantage. Gay rights and abortion don't map perfectly, but I'd bet good money that Saturday's Yes voters are more likely than Saturday's No voters to lean pro-choice.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 6:24pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

How do you know?

There is no evidence of any, for starters.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 6:26pm

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure. I know plenty of people who would have fought tooth and nail campaigning for SSM who would be a strong "No" on anything abortion related.

It's a very complicated issue, legally and socially, so all the "No" side would have to do is claim that repealing the eighth will instantly lead to one-hour abortion clinics and mass graves of dead babies, and a lot of people won't look past the issues to see why the 8th is such an horrendous amendment.

Hell, there's already one poster in this thread banging on about abortion on demand. Imagine that, but times 10,000.

This is very true. A lot of the Renua crew kept schtum on SSM but will be all out against abortion.

A new set of alliances will be set up with people from all parties and walks of life coming down on either side.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 6:30pm

volchitsa wrote: »

But if you think what matters is preventing Irish babies being aborted, what does it matter where that happens?

While there's a legal right to travel for an abortion, you can't fool anyone that it isn't happening. So you only care about maintaining the fiction, and don't give a hoot about the reality of it.

All we can do is legislate for our own nation, no one else's.

Ireland is abortion free and a huge cohort of the population, I suspect, will vote against any attempt to repeal the 8th if and when it is threatened.

8th Amendment

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