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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #842
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    lividduck wrote: »
    What really galls me , what really really gets to me is big Phil the chancer linking paying the tax to patriotism!
    It was insulting to those who paid out of fear , or paid because they felt they had to obey an unjust law, and it was particularly insulting to those who refused to pay on principle , he is one right can of p**s cnut!:mad::mad:

    Hear Hear Lividduck.

    This party are nothing more that fcuking dictators. The estate I live in the builder went bust 2 weeks ago. We did everything about this, only to ber told, pay up this year and it will be reviewed next year.

    BULL****..I didn't pay, and nor will I!! Why? Because I'm not (quote oul phil) 'not happy with the service.


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    #843
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    lugha wrote: »
    So pay for something even if you honestly don't think you are obliged to? Well, I simply disagree.
    BTW, would you include in that principled stance the idea of Ireland paying for the failed banks (though most of us think we shouldn't) because our European "friends" think we should?:pac:

    No way. I've been consistent in my denouncing of what is, essentially, financial treason. Phil has been caught out. And if he had any backbone would resign immediately.


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    #844
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    MagicSean wrote: »
    It's easy to fing hypocrisy if you just make **** up.

    So the holiday home non-payment is made up then?:rolleyes:


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    #845
    Royal Legend
    Registered Users Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    lugha wrote: »
    Not quite. The link between this Hogan story and the household charge is simply spurious. While the government have played the card that this charge is to fund local services, the arrangements for paying taxes or charges is not the same as paying for privately agreed charges.

    If my takeaway does not deliver what I order, or my window cleaner does not clean my windows properly or any other private arrangement does not deliver the goods or services to my satisfaction then I will take the provider to task. Most of the time these things get sorted amiably but either they or I can resort to the courts if we do not get satisfaction in any other way. There is no difference between big Phil and me, or any of you (assuming as I do that you are not chumps :) )

    Your public obligation under a charge or tax is not the same. You do not in general have the right to withhold or modify the charge in light of poor service (perhaps you should have, but I recall no precedence where you do).

    I cannot adjust the amount I pay for TV licence to take account for the amount of Irish TV I watch. I cannot adjust my motor tax payment to take account of the quality or extent of the roads I use. I cannot adjust my general tax contributions to take account of the quality of the services I should be getting from the state. Etc. etc.

    If Phil had reneged on the equivalent of the house charge in Portugal you would have something. If he had lost a court challenge on the issue and not paid up you would have something. But on what we know about the story so far you have nothing.

    Which of course is not to say you won’t get a bit of mileage out of it and cause Phil a little embarrassment. But I think you the no side will need more ammunition that this if they are going to win the day. ;)

    The NO side won the day, more than half the people that were supposed to pay, did not. which means the NO vote won :rolleyes:


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    #846
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm not defending Phil Hogan. Maybe he should have paid his service, charge, maybe he shouldn't - I've no idea - nor do you. What is clear is that the issue has nothing to do with evading taxes.

    Bollocks. And you know it.


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    #847
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    Hear Hear Lividduck.

    This party are nothing more that fcuking dictators. The estate I live in the builder went bust 2 weeks ago. We did everything about this, only to ber told, pay up this year and it will be reviewed next year.

    BULL****..I didn't pay, and nor will I!! Why? Because I'm not (quote oul phil) 'not happy with the service.

    So you aren't happy with the dodgy builder you got involved with and will show this by not paying a government levy? Makes sense. Taxi man overcharged me last week so I've stopped paying my car tax.


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    #848
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    Maybe they can determine the distinction between a private contract dispute and tax evasion?

    Or define sheer hypocrisy?


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    #849
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    It's a tax. Don't know how many times this nonsense has been wheeled out.

    If it's a tax why is every household not liable?


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    #850
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    No way. I've been consistent in my denouncing of what is, essentially, financial treason.
    Yes I know you have. I am just wondering how you square this with your principles that if someone says you should pay up, you do so without question. Maybe that's where Cowen went wrong? Too principled! :)


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    #851
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    So the holiday home non-payment is made up then?:rolleyes:

    It's not a government levy. It's a contractual matter. Your suggesting that it would be prefectly legitimate for you to go into your local Spar and refuse to pay vat because you found out that the manager hasn't paid his carpenter for some shoddy work he did.


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    #852
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Do you think that an Irish minister for the environment being in front of a portuguese court for non-payment of service charges is appropriate?

    Well said Gerry. The essence of the issue at hand.


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    #853
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    MagicSean wrote: »
    So you aren't happy with the dodgy builder you got involved with and will show this by not paying a government levy? Makes sense. Taxi man overcharged me last week so I've stopped paying my car tax.

    What a load of sh1te. I;m not happy because we were informed that ghost estates were EXEMPT. When we enquired we were told too late*, pay up and apply for a review next year.

    *: I personally emailed the 3 TD's in my constituency the day after the budget to ask for a definition of 'ghost estate'. I only got my response last week, when enquiring about why we weren't listed on the website.


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    #854
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Royal Legend wrote: »
    The NO side won the day, more than half the people that were supposed to pay, did not. which means the NO vote won :rolleyes:
    Who did or did not win the day is in dispute. And in any case, the battle won't be decided by who "won the day" on Saturday. And in any, any case, that has nothing to do with the Phil Hogan story.

    I don't think the game is quite up for the no side but the few days leading up to the deadline were very bad for them. Personally I thought the numbers that would pay up would struggle to get over 35%.


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    #855
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    MagicSean wrote: »
    It's not a government levy. It's a contractual matter. Your suggesting that it would be prefectly legitimate for you to go into your local Spar and refuse to pay vat because you found out that the manager hasn't paid his carpenter for some shoddy work he did.

    Would this be the spar where they force you to buy mars bars........... plus make you pay for the ones given out for free to those from local authority housing?


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    #856
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    What a load of sh1te. I;m not happy because we were informed that ghost estates were EXEMPT. When we enquired we were told too late*, pay up and apply for a review next year.

    *: I personally emailed the 3 TD's in my constituency the day after the budget to ask for a definition of 'ghost estate'. I only got my response last week, when enquiring about why we weren't listed on the website.

    I'm in the same situation as you. Because my developer was still trading at the time the list was made up my estate was not eligible for the waiver. The council will be taking him to court in the next few months to have the estate completed and if they don't I will cancel my direct debit to them. The list is a statutory document signed on a particular date. It can only be changed annually. By next year you will either have a finsihed estate or a waiver from the charges, which I am assured by someone on this thread will be much higher.


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    #857
    Royal Legend
    Registered Users Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    MagicSean wrote: »
    So you aren't happy with the dodgy builder you got involved with and will show this by not paying a government levy? Makes sense. Taxi man overcharged me last week so I've stopped paying my car tax.

    Why did you get a taxi when you own a car?

    Were you drinking?

    Are you drinking now?

    If yes to the last two questions, It would explain a lot :cool:


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    #858
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    Hear Hear Lividduck.

    This party are nothing more that fcuking dictators. The estate I live in the builder went bust 2 weeks ago. We did everything about this, only to ber told, pay up this year and it will be reviewed next year.

    BULL****..I didn't pay, and nor will I!! Why? Because I'm not (quote oul phil) 'not happy with the service.

    I and my fellow residents are in the same state.
    (I'm chairman of the residency association)

    For 16 years our estate was not officially finished.
    NOW suddenly because they are looking for money - we ARE officially finished - even thought it is still not!

    Will PM you with our estate website address.


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    #859
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    mikom wrote: »
    Would this be the spar where they force you to buy mars bars........... plus make you pay for the ones given out for free to those from local authority housing?

    The levy is on home owners. Council houses are owned by the council. The whole point of council housing is to supply a house to people who can't afford their own. By what logic should the household charge apply to them?

    I don't get your point about Mars bars. i like Mars bars.


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    #860
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    mod:
    roverek banned.


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    #861
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,591 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    lugha wrote: »
    Who did or did not win the day is in dispute. And in any case, the battle won't be decided by who "won the day" on Saturday. And in any, any case, that has nothing to do with the Phil Hogan story.

    I don't think the game is quite up for the no side but the few days leading up to the deadline were very bad for them. Personally I thought the numbers that would pay up would struggle to get over 35%.

    I thought that with the threats made by Hogan etc the numbers paying would be far higher.
    I am delighted at a million have refused to pay this unjust tax and that they have refused to back down to pressure. Many may pay in time but the protest has been an outstanding success at deadline time.


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    #862
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Royal Legend wrote: »
    Why did you get a taxi when you own a car?

    Were you drinking?

    Are you drinking now?

    If yes to the last two questions, It would explain a lot :cool:

    That's the best you can do?


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    #863
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    MagicSean wrote: »
    The levy is on home owners. Council houses are owned by the council. The whole point of council housing is to supply a house to people who can't afford their own. By what logic should the household charge apply to them?

    I can name ten families in Co. council housing pulling in good wages in the current climate.
    Far more than some of the poor homeowning saps that have to pay this tax.

    As with most things in Ireland........ it's unfair.
    And as such causes disrespect for authority to fester.


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    #864
    Royal Legend
    Registered Users Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    MagicSean wrote: »
    That's the best you can do?

    Would you rather try to reply to your inane insights?

    Its like tage team Wumming, Alistar and DV are gone, now you turn up to spurte utter sh ite.


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    #865
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I thought that with the threats made by Hogan etc the numbers paying would be far higher.
    Well I don’t think he made threats. Of course some spun what he said to make them sound like threats but that is not quite the same thing.
    tayto lover wrote: »
    I am delighted at a million have refused to pay this unjust tax and that they have refused to back down to pressure. Many may pay in time but the protest has been an outstanding success at deadline time.
    Well I suppose if the no side are happy then we are all happy! :) (Also, 800K or so, not a million)


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    #866
    ShaneMc2012
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭ShaneMc2012


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/phil-hogan-refuses-to-pay-4k-service-charges-on-his-portugal-holiday-penthouse-3067684.html
    Phil Hogan refuses to pay €4k service charges on his Portugal holiday penthouse

    "Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?" he asked... Im unhappy with the government so I didnt pay. Bring me to court over that now so!
    Glad I didnt pay it now! The dirty hypocrite! Unless its an April Fools prank.. Unlikely though


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    #867
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    mikom wrote: »
    I can name ten families in Co. council housing pulling in good wages in the current climate.
    Far mare than some of the poor homeowning saps that have to pay this tax.

    As with most things in Ireland........ it's unfair.
    And as such causes disrespect for authority to fester.

    I don't disagree with you there. It's a different issue though. Your issue is with the way council housing is managed.
    Royal Legend wrote: »
    Would you rather try to reply to your inane insights?

    Its like tage team Wumming, Alistar and DV are gone, now you turn up to spurte utter sh ite.

    You can keep throwing out insults if you like.


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    #868
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,067 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Nothing may come of this but - http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-councillors-to-debate-motion-on-abolition-of-household-charge-403614-Apr2012/
    Dublin councillors to debate motion on abolition of Household Charge

    DUBLIN CITY COUNCIL will tomorrow evening debate an emergency motion calling for the repeal of the Household Charge and the introduction of an emergency government budget for local councils.

    The motion is being tabled by Sinn Féin, which this afternoon accused environment minister Phil Hogan of “monumental hypocrisy” in his stance on the €100 charge, while also reportedly refusing to pay a bill for service charges on a holiday home.

    While the motion will not be binding upon the council or government, the move could see Dublin City Council become the first local authority in the country to adopt a formal policy of opposing the charge, which is being introduced to proceed property taxes and water charges in the coming years.

    Will be interesting to see if it has support amongst other councillors. I'm sure they don't want to be used as pawns by the government by being made to ensure that payments are made.. they know how important public support is, even if those in power massively underestimate it. Hmm.. imagine councils striking in defiance to the government.. we can dream!


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    #869
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    MagicSean wrote: »
    I don't disagree with you there. It's a different issue though. Your issue is with the way council housing is managed.



    But that's what we've been screaming from the start.

    "Sort the thing out...............before putting the hand out"
    I will no longer perpetuate this shambles.
    Even the household charge push was a shambles, and on it goes.


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    #870
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    lugha wrote: »
    Well I don’t think he made threats. Of course some spun what he said to make them sound like threats but that is not quite the same thing.

    This is something which really annoyed me. Nobody said anything about the council going door to door to collect money. The Irish Independent "learned" it somewhere and reported it. Then it caught on and the criminals started using it as an excuse to get onto properties. The no-pay camp then tried to use this to attack the government. It was such a ridiculous situation.


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    #871
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    ShaneMc2012 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/phil-hogan-refuses-to-pay-4k-service-charges-on-his-portugal-holiday-penthouse-3067684.html
    Phil Hogan refuses to pay €4k service charges on his Portugal holiday penthouse

    "Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?" he asked... Im unhappy with the government so I didnt pay. Bring me to court over that now so!
    Glad I didnt pay it now! The dirty hypocrite! Unless its an April Fools prank.. Unlikely though

    A number of papers reported the same thing and radio stations.
    - Well all except RTE on air (no surprise there to be honest).


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