Dublin Bus workers threaten strike

spareman · 11-11-2007 3:09pm

If a driver gets suspended for refusing to operate the new roster's, The other drivers in harristown will strike in support, Whenever this happens there will be no buses out of harristown, then within a few hours all buses will be parked up, If this happens in the morning people will have a bus service on other route's in the AM and no way of getting home in the pm.
I would advise all passengers to make alternative arrangements tomorrow, We dont want to be leaving passengers stranded anywhere.

dub_commuter · 11-11-2007 3:11pm

Press Release:

Dublin Bus has said that the planned introduction of the new Routes 4a, (Ballymun to Stradbrook) and 128, (Clongriffin Park and Ride to Rathmines) will proceed on Monday 12th November in line with the Labour Court Recommendation of October 22nd 2007.

Trade Unions have indicated to the company that in the event of these routes being introduced there will be disruption to bus services operating out of Harristown Garage.

The Company regrets that the Trade Unions intend to engage in this disruption, which will affect up to 12% of our daily customers.

Did they change the routing of 4a at the last minute to not serve Harristown? I'd say that didn't do them any favours with the Unions. From what the above says it seems that they will be suspending people?

spareman · 11-11-2007 3:18pm

I will be gone for the rest of today, have to do a bit of work myself, hopefully management will cancel plans to introduce the new roster's and return to negotiations, Strike is a no win situation.

evad_lhorg · 11-11-2007 3:43pm

so all the southside routes arent effected?

RuggieBear · 11-11-2007 3:47pm

bollix.

me not getting to work tomorrow handily. I usually use the 4 and 40D.

Suppose i'll have to get a 7 and i believe there is a free shuttle bus to the business park i work in.

MiniD · 11-11-2007 3:50pm

dub_commuter wrote: »

Exactly and thats not acceptable, a good comparison is you start at work at 9am and before you go to work every morning you must go to head office which is ages away to pick up one little piece of paper, only then can you head to work even if it means double backing on yourself. You end up leaving earlier than you need to if you went to work directly.

Then in the evening when you finish work at 5pm, you have to drop this thing into head office again before you can go home, which means you may have to double back again, which means you have to head to head office every day before and after work before you can go home, so whilst you finish at 5, you may not start heading home until six.

DubCommuter, can I ask what alternative you would offer in this situation. Do you suggest pulling a bus out of service at peak hours to drive it empty to Harristown so it can change driver?
In the example you gave, there is no reason for a driver to go to Harristown at all. They could travel directly into town from home, using public transport, and start their day there. Likewise, at 5pm, they could simply clock out in the city centre and head home.
The only reason a driver would need to travel to Harristown is if they had a car parked there. Remember, they would be paid to travel back to Harristown to collect their car, so there is no financial loss there.

What is the difference of a Donnybrook driver starting a duty in the City Centre to a Harristown drivers starting their duty in the city?

Again, I would love someone to explain how Dublin Bus could operate this new cross city 128 route without having drivers change in the city centre. Surely a bus is better in service that running empty to a garage to change driver shifts?

is_that_so · 11-11-2007 3:55pm

spareman wrote: »

I will be gone for the rest of today, have to do a bit of work myself, hopefully management will cancel plans to introduce the new roster's and return to negotiations, Strike is a no win situation.

Perhaps you can explain this "lifestyle" comment on it.

The unions said that since its opening, drivers had developed a lifestyle that had evolved around the Harristown depot, as its location near the M50 and M1 allowed them to easily calculate the time needed to arrive and start at the garage.
-The Irish Times 8/11/07

Full Story

Strikes are an indication of failure. IMO it represents an inability to address core issues. "Management" are not the ones that call strikes. Blaming the other side is not the way to get things resolved. IMO CIE unions have always abused the power they have over the general public. Were it a minor dispute in a small factory somewhere you would still be negotiating.

The Labour Court has already found in favour of "Management" proposals.
IALPA managed to come to a deal with Aer Lingus over their new base. Why are the CIE unions incapable of resolving problems?

Hagar · 11-11-2007 3:59pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Why are the CIE unions incapable of resolving problems?

Because they can hold a city, and if necessary, a whole country to ransom, with support from their buddies in the old CIE club.
Why negotiate when you can demand?

dub_commuter · 11-11-2007 4:03pm

MiniD - I'm not prepared to get into an argument, but at the end of the day it boils down to what gives the passengers a better standard of service, I know some locations which is covered by Harristown and another garage, Harristown break, start and finish at the depot, the other route does so in the City Centre. The Harristown route is much more reliable and for that reason I back what they are doing.

I also used a route that was operated by Phibsborough before the Harristown garage opened, the performance of it has increased 200% nearly overnight with a very similar timetable, the only difference was where the breaks were and the shifts started and finished. To a customer they only care that their bus turns up on time every day, none of the politics.

is_that_so - I agree with what you are saying, they should be still negotiating but from what I have read and heard it seems that Dublin Bus are the ones who do not want to negotiate, not the garage. I also agree that CIE Unions have too much power, but in this case I feel they are correct.

MiniD · 11-11-2007 4:17pm

DubCommuter, I certainly don't wish to argue either. You say you don't agree with the plans approved by Dublin Bus and The Labour Court, but you don't explain how you expect this new 128 bus route to run without drivers changing in the city centre?

markf909 · 11-11-2007 6:54pm

Have to say Dublin Bus management have made a right balls up over this, I don't know too many people who would fancy being required ( i know they are being paid for it) to do an extra 90 mins on top of their daily shift.

Will IE be on strike within a day or two in 'sympathy' with their DB colleagues?

meanmachine3 · 11-11-2007 7:01pm

part of the problem is this. drivers who start early drive their cars into the garage to pick up a bus, with the new introduction of the new services any driver finishing in town will have to travel 11km or there abouts to pick up his car and drive home and probably wont get paid for going back to the garage.
so now this driver has to make 2 journeys.
lay mans terms.
driver travels in from say bray to start at 6am. has to use his own car as theres no buses.
finishes in town at say 3pm
has to make own way out to back of airport to collect car.
then probably has to drive back through town to get back to bray as M50 would be car park.
up until today all routes in harristown probably with the exception of the 237/38/39/70 all had their breaks in the staff canteen in harristown garage.
AT PRESENT THERE ARE NO ROUTES FROM HARRISTOWN GARAGE THAT BREAK OR FINISH IN THE CITY CENTRE.
this garage has been up an running a number of years now. i did the caps the let you know what your not being told

jimmycrackcorm · 11-11-2007 7:04pm

spareman wrote: »

From what I know Harristown members will send union members to all Dublin Bus properties tomorrow morning, so disregard the Dublin bus statement and make alternative arrangements. I cant see any routes operating tomorrow unless this is resolved tonight.

Now why would they want to do such a thing, why can't they simply stick to picketing Harristown?

Shamanic · 11-11-2007 7:05pm

so as it stands we all have no way into or back from work tomorrow?

Heart · 11-11-2007 7:09pm

AT PRESENT THERE ARE NO ROUTES FROM HARRISTOWN GARAGE THAT BREAK OR FINISH IN THE CITY CENTRE.

What about the 40/A/B/C/D do they not break in the city centre?

H

dub_commuter · 11-11-2007 7:09pm

MiniD - Yes that is a difficult one I totally see where you are coming from, but the big fear is if they accept this they will do the same for all the routes which will lead to a reduction in punctuality and reliability and nobody wants to see that. However breaking starting and finishing the 4/4A in the City Centre when it's terminus is Harristown IS stupid.

markf909 - Exactly, the thing that these people saying wow, so they have to travel to work like me and you don't understand is these drivers can't even start going home as they have to head back to the garage before they go home after their shif thas finished.

meanmachine3 - You are a sensible guy from the sound of things and you speak a lot of sense about what is going on. I don't see why they should mess with things at Harristown, the garage is performing very well, why would they want to start changing that?

jimmycrackcorm - Because the fact is that Dublin Bus workers stand up for each other. It's called support.

dub_commuter · 11-11-2007 7:12pm

Shamanic wrote: »

so as it stands we all have no way into or back from work tomorrow?

A driver on the 13 advised anyone near the airport to get a taxi there and to get an aircoach to South Dublin if you need to get to the southside. If you need to get to Castleknock and are in the Swords area you also have urbus.

trellheim · 11-11-2007 7:15pm

Here is the Labour Court Recommendation [ link might not work ], if not go to their website and have a search

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/185190278967d05380256a01005bb35e/80256a770034a2ab802573780032407f?OpenDocument

meanmachine3 · 11-11-2007 7:18pm

as far as i'm aware the 40's dont break in town.i'm 99% sure of this

MiniD · 11-11-2007 7:23pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

with the new introduction of the new services any driver finishing in town will have to travel 11km or there abouts to pick up his car and drive home and probably wont get paid for going back to the garage.

As stated already in this thread, the driver does get paid for traveling back to the depot, and this 45 minutes is built into their daily duty. The only difference here is that the driver will not be driving an empty bus back to he depot, and will instead travel on another bus to take them there. The journey time on Dublin Bus timetables to Harristown is 35 minutes from the City Centre.

Unfortunately with operating a bus service, there needs to be flexibility. While it may have been the case for years that no Harristown driver duty started/ended in the city centre, it needs to be accepted that operating some routes, such as the 128, will operate more efficiently by drivers breaking or finishing at different locations. Harristown seems to be unique in that many of it's routes either terminate or break at the depot. Most other Dublin Bus drivers don't have that luxury, but accept that it's part of their job to operate certain routes or buses from various locations. It is worth mentioning, there are full subsidised canteen facilities for Dublin Bus drivers just off O'Connell Street.

If every driver on the 128 was to drive back to Harristown to start, break or end their shift, the timetable would be a mess and the current 10 minute frequency would not be possible.

dub_commuter · 11-11-2007 7:27pm

From what I have heard at the moment is the travel time is worked into all Harristown routes. After the changes It will not be though, they will finish at their finish time and only earlier if their last timetabled services ends before then. DB are now trying to schedule buses so their last service reaches it's terminus at their exact finish time with now bedding period to travel back to the depot.

Shamanic · 11-11-2007 7:35pm

how long is the strike for? One day two days? And is it going ahead?

meanmachine3 · 11-11-2007 7:37pm

yes there is a canteen but what you may not be aware of is that some of the scum we deal with as drivers use that same canteen.i haven't seen the schedule for any of the new routes so therefore cannot comment of how much travelling time is given if there is any.
harristown was built to get the buses out of the city ,ALL routes possibly with the exception of the ones i already mentioned that went up there had their schedules CHANGED so that the drivers could start/break and finish in the garage.
the journey time on a particular route in dublin (not mentioning the route)is given as 80/85 mins in reality it can take upto 150 mins for the same journey and the same route.running times on most dublin bus route are way out dated and way of the real times.

MiniD · 11-11-2007 7:51pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

yes there is a canteen but what you may not be aware of is that some of the scum we deal with as drivers use that same canteen.

Isn't this a Dublin Bus canteen, behind Clerys, for Dublin Bus drivers?

harristown was built to get the buses out of the city ,ALL routes possibly with the exception of the ones i already mentioned that went up there had their schedules CHANGED so that the drivers could start/break and finish in the garage.

Harristown was build to house the extra buses in the Dublin Bus fleet, a lot of which are Euro duties. This new 128 route, which from what I gather is what this dispute is all about, is a brand new route, so these schedules are starting from scratch. It's different from the other routes in the depot, whereby it's an all day cross-city route, which doesn't pass the garage, so the option for drivers to change at the garage simply isn't there.
With this in mind, how do you suggest drivers should end or start their shifts, keeping the buses running to the timetable?

artcrit · 11-11-2007 8:06pm

As a commuter on the 27b route I will be put out tomorrow. However I can understand where the drivers are coming from. If a driver finishes work in town spends time making his way to Eden Quay waits at least 10 minutes on the 27b going back to Harristown with a running time of anything up to 1 hour and 10 minutes all going well , and gets paid for 45 minutes, it does not add up. A worker would need to be dense to accept that deal!

aliveandkicking · 11-11-2007 8:25pm

I must say I am on the drivers side in this dispute. They are undoubtedly being sold a pup by management and are right not to accept it.

However two things I don't agree with.
1) Going out on strike and giving thousands of commuters a torrid time will not win any friends. Why not just refuse to take fares for the first few days and see how that goes?

2) Placing pickets on the other garages and therefore depriving Dublin of any kind of bus services. They should keep it local at first then if needs be (after a few days) place a picket on other garages but again maybe just instruct the drivers not to take fares.

For a change I support the unions on this but why must they alienate themselves from the general public by going on all out strike?

No doubt the privately operated Luas and private bus services will continue to operate thus giving weight to the argument that Dublin Bus services should be privatised. The unions should tread carefully on this, they have a lot to lose.

mickoneill30 · 11-11-2007 8:27pm

What times do the drivers shifts normally end? I'm presuming they won't be ending in the middle of rush hour traffic.

Is the current system that a driver finishes up and then drives back to the depot?
The new system is that the driver finishes up and gets a bus back to the depot? Are they not pretty much the same thing? Without wasting a bus.
For the 46 minutes each way do they come out of their 8 hour day or are they on top of it? So = 9hours 32 mins.

dub_commuter · 11-11-2007 8:32pm

mickoneill30 wrote: »

For the 46 minutes each way do they come out of their 8 hour day or are they on top of it? So = 9hours 32 mins.

They are on top of it if the new proposals go ahead. Currently they are included.

Hagar · 11-11-2007 8:49pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

the journey time on a particular route in dublin (not mentioning the route)is given as 80/85 mins in reality it can take upto 150 mins for the same journey and the same route.running times on most dublin bus route are way out dated and way of the real times.

The people of Dublin are putting up with that for years, maybe if the DB employees had to put up with it for while something might be done about it.

meanmachine3 · 11-11-2007 8:52pm

thats the same canteen, i've seen the local whineo's eating in there amongst others. alot of routes were moved out of their garages due to health and safety reasons i.e. buses were parked to close together. there now has to be so much space between each bus( supposedly). routes that dont pass the garage but start/ break and finish i harristown include 17A and the 102 amongst others.
to be honest this is getting a bit tedious. i'm a bus driver on one of the busiest routes in the city .i know more about the workings, ins and outs of dublin bus than most people. unless your an employee of dublin bus then i'll have have an answer to almost everything that is posted.
to cut a long story short and to be quite blunt if the strike goes ahead aint nothing can be done. if it's called of count your lucky stars you can get a bus tomorrow.

it doesn't matter who goes on strike these days, be it nurses,taxi men, bin men etc. the public will always complain.
the average working week in this country is actually 39 hours. so thats an extra 12 mintues at least on top of what you've already said.
some shifts finish early while others finish between 4-6pm ,so yes alot of shifts do finish during rush hour.

i as a bus driver am sick to death of asking for a new schedule for the route i'm on and all i get is some cock and bull excuse.

MiniD · 11-11-2007 9:17pm

Am I right in saying, if the 128 was due to be operated by any other bus garage, then we wouldn't be facing a bus strike tomorrow?

Every other bus garage have routes which start, break and end in the city centre and those drivers have no problem. Perhaps a suggestion would be to transfer route 128 to another garage and operate it from there without any problem.

meanmachine3 · 11-11-2007 9:35pm

in normal circumstances this would be a great idea but all the garages are full up. harristown is only at half capacity. in order to move the 128 to another garage you would have to move another large route out of there. again harristown is unique in everyway. it's routes,facilities and so on.
other garages should not be affected by this action unless drivers from harristown are suspended.
all this is now in the court of dublin bus senior management.
if the action does escalate senior management are solely to blame.

final thought for tonight.
once we as bus drivers are out of uniform we are exactly the same as every other commuter. we rely on buses to get us from A to B as well. we also have family and friends who also rely heavily on public transport so we are just as put out by the strike as every other commuter.

trellheim · 11-11-2007 10:16pm

You may be asked this tomorrow, so I'll ask it now.

Given that the Labour Court has sided with the company in this case [ see my earlier post for the recommendation ], why did you not accept the LCR recommendation ?

i.e the one that said "try it for 6 months and if it's causing hassle we'll look at it again"

Hagar · 11-11-2007 10:27pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

we are just as put out by the strike as every other commuter.

No you are not because you are not trying to get to work during the strike.:mad:

jimmycrackcorm · 11-11-2007 10:34pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

final thought for tonight.
once we as bus drivers are out of uniform we are exactly the same as every other commuter. we rely on buses to get us from A to B as well. we also have family and friends who also rely heavily on public transport so we are just as put out by the strike as every other commuter.

But then the bus drivers won't be commuting. As a private sector employee I realise that sometimes working conditions have to change to suit and while I might not like it I either accept it or move to another job. The sooner that privatisation is introduced, the better the service we'll all get.

armada104 · 11-11-2007 11:57pm

What's the situation at other bus depots? Is the trip back to the depot included in an 8-hour shift or is it on top of the 8 hours?

Drongo · 12-11-2007 12:49am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The sooner that privatisation is introduced, the better the service we'll all get.

Tell that to train commuters in England.

andrew163 · 12-11-2007 1:33am

Excuse my ignorance, but why are the 37/38/39/70 (and other buses that are nothing to do with Harristown) affected by this?

spareman · 12-11-2007 1:52am

Hagar wrote: »

The people of Dublin are putting up with that for years, maybe if the DB employees had to put up with it for while something might be done about it.

What are you talking about? Or do you even know?
Who drives the bus? DB employee's, We have to put up with these ridiculas journey times for 8/12 hours a day 5 days a week, We are the miricle worker's who are supposed to stick to these journey time's, Why do you think so many buses leave late or simply dont arrive, can you feel the pressure yet?

spareman · 12-11-2007 1:57am

andrew163 wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but why are the 37/38/39/70 (and other buses that are nothing to do with Harristown) affected by this?

I think some of the Euro duties, peak time buses are operated by harristown.

spareman · 12-11-2007 1:58am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But then the bus drivers won't be commuting. As a private sector employee I realise that sometimes working conditions have to change to suit and while I might not like it I either accept it or move to another job. The sooner that privatisation is introduced, the better the service we'll all get.

I cant wait for privatisation either, just hope you will still be here so I can laugh at you and say I told ya so.

MiniD · 12-11-2007 2:00am

andrew163 wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but why are the 37/38/39/70 (and other buses that are nothing to do with Harristown) affected by this?

Most busy routes require extra buses at peak hours. Some of these are fixed journeys operated by buses called "Euro" buses. A "Euro"duty is a bus which only operates at the peak hours - morning and evening rush. Some of these buses operate from Harristown depot. So while Phibsboro garage operate the 37/38/39 and 70, a lot of the peak time buses on these routes are actually operated by Harristown.
Because of this, a lot of peak time services will be affected on these routes tomorrow.

Nevyn · 12-11-2007 2:11am

Well then if there is a probelm with the security in the canteen that is supplied by dublin bus why hasn't that been sorted ? Why wasn't it dealt with before now ?

spareman · 12-11-2007 2:21am

trellheim wrote: »

You may be asked this tomorrow, so I'll ask it now.

Given that the Labour Court has sided with the company in this case [ see my earlier post for the recommendation ], why did you not accept the LCR recommendation ?

i.e the one that said "try it for 6 months and if it's causing hassle we'll look at it again"

Whenthey said try it for 6 months, they were talking about the travel time payment of 46 mins, it was to be reviewed after 6 months.
Management attemted to get rid of traveling time in Donnybrook Garage last year but failed, This has nothing to do with one or two routes, The company has an agenda to get rid of traveling time on all routes and prolong the working day for driver's who dont want it.

heres an example of a duty,

start donnybrook garage 09.00
take bus to town and operate a route
break 50 mins in city
leave bus in city 16.30 and make your way to donnybrook
finish Donnybrook garage 17.00

company want to change this
to start garage 09.00
finish in city 17.00
make your way to garage for 17.30

this add's 30mins to our working day.
This is a mild example, working 9 to 5 isn't very often for bus drivers.
If a harristown driver starts in the city and finishes in the city thats 92 mins added to his 8 hour day, 5 days a week is an extra 7 hours 40 mins more time at work, So instead of the agreed 39 hour week, we now do 46 hour 40 min.
Surely we should have the right to refuse overtime if we dont want to do it?
That 39 hour week is drive time, in the seat as they say, it does not include breaks, some of which could be up to 4/5 hour breaks.
Actual time away from home could be closer to 55/60 hour week plus travel time to and from garage.
Most people who work 7 to 3, 8 to 4, or 9 to 5, actually have there breaks included in there 8 hour day. we dont so our day is a minimum of 9 hours based on minimum break of 1 hour.

penexpers · 12-11-2007 7:44am

Sounds like it's begun anyway. There's an 83 stop outside my house and I haven't heard a single bus go by this morning.

markpb · 12-11-2007 8:14am

I rang the depot at 7 - nothing going out there

RuggieBear · 12-11-2007 8:21am

markpb wrote: »

I rang the depot at 7 - nothing going out there

rang the dublin bus helpline and was told everything was normal except for harristown...do these guys know wtf is going on?:rolleyes:

gazzer · 12-11-2007 8:44am

Im a bit confused this morning(nothing new there). I was listening to Newstalk to see what the latest was with the bus situation. They had a spokeswoman from DB on who was talking about this 46 minute issue. She said that that issue arrises if the driver starts his/her shift at Harristown Garage BUT they dont have to start from the garage. They can head straight to the city centre from their house and bypass the garage... If this is true what the hell is the problem??

Hagar · 12-11-2007 9:08am

spareman wrote: »

What are you talking about? Or do you even know?

I'm talking about commuters waiting on buses that don't come because of fictitious timetables.

penexpers · 12-11-2007 9:31am

gazzer wrote: »

Im a bit confused this morning(nothing new there). I was listening to Newstalk to see what the latest was with the bus situation. They had a spokeswoman from DB on who was talking about this 46 minute issue. She said that that issue arrises if the driver starts his/her shift at Harristown Garage BUT they dont have to start from the garage. They can head straight to the city centre from their house and bypass the garage... If this is true what the hell is the problem??

Where would they leave their car?

Dublin Bus workers threaten strike

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