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Extra services for Nenagh branch!

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245

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    #32
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,832 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    dhaslam wrote: »
    If the line costs €20,000 per day to run, as per the Irish Independent today, and there are only 73 passengers and there is a good road running paralell it would be more efficient and cheaper to use individual taxis.
    itd even be cheaper to give the 73 people a brand new car EACH TO KEEP and you'd be saving money after less than 3 months.


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    #33
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The 20,000/day figure is disputed - certainly that that figure can't be ascribed to the EXTRA trains, whatever about the entire cost of the line.

    Thread on that article is here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056561143


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    #34
    tangowhiskey
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭tangowhiskey


    dowlingm wrote: »

    For example - it was picked up on the equivalent RUI thread by doherty_jack (who seems to be connected to the local rail partnership) that Roscrea (not served by the 1705 Limerick-Ballybrophy) could be served on Saturdays because the crossing train which occupies the platform is Mon-Fri only. The laugh is that the train probably will stop on Saturdays and the doors will open but IE will just keep it on the downlow because people might use it and then where would we be.

    Timetable now up stating that it will serve Roscrea on Saturdays only.
    Link: http://www.irishrail.ie/media/DublinLimerickviaNenagh121.pdf


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    #35
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    any word on day 1 loads for the direct service?


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    #36
    Hungerford
    Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    IRN are reporting that 19 people braved the leg between Limerick and Ballybrophy on the first service. The train filled up with commuters once it hit the mainline.


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    #37
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    I suppose the marketing locally is up to the usual high standards of Iarnrod Eireann? :rolleyes:


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    #38
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I have not read all of this thread, but in case it hasnt been said already I will say it: The key to this whole line is the track alignment at Ballybrophy.

    Last time I used the route, the train leaving Ballybrophy had to go in the opposite direction to the train from Dublin. That means that a train to or from Dublin via Nenagh has to reverse at Ballybrophy, and if it is loco-hauled then the loco must change ends. It makes the service seem primitive and unprofessional to any modern rail traveller.

    This could be remedied by some modest track realignment work. If they are going to invest in the service then this has to be done. Otherwise, don't bother developing the service at all.


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    #39
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I have not read all of this thread, but in case it hasnt been said already I will say it: The key to this whole line is the track alignment at Ballybrophy.

    Last time I used the route, the train leaving Ballybrophy had to go in the opposite direction to the train from Dublin. That means that a train to or from Dublin via Nenagh has to reverse at Ballybrophy, and if it is loco-hauled then the loco must change ends. It makes the service seem primitive and unprofessional to any modern rail traveller.

    This could be remedied by some modest track realignment work. If they are going to invest in the service then this has to be done. Otherwise, don't bother developing the service at all.

    I have been banging on about a direct curve, facing the Dublin direction, at Ballybrophy for decades. I have written to numerous politicians, ministers etc. but you might as well talk to the wall. Decisions such as whether or not direct curves etc are installed should not be an 'operational matter' for CIE/IE - they are far too important to be left to people who muddle along from day to day, year to year and decade to decade.


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    #40
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,832 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I have not read all of this thread, but in case it hasnt been said already I will say it: The key to this whole line is the track alignment at Ballybrophy.

    Last time I used the route, the train leaving Ballybrophy had to go in the opposite direction to the train from Dublin. That means that a train to or from Dublin via Nenagh has to reverse at Ballybrophy, and if it is loco-hauled then the loco must change ends. It makes the service seem primitive and unprofessional to any modern rail traveller.

    This could be remedied by some modest track realignment work. If they are going to invest in the service then this has to be done. Otherwise, don't bother developing the service at all.
    yes
    but there are less and less loco hauled trains. Only Dublin to Cork and Dublin left and even those have driver cabs that negate the need to switch the loco.

    if a train is calling to a station anyhow then the driver walking the 50m from one end of the train to the other to change direction isnt a massive logistical issue.


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    #41
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The switch of ends for the train from Limerick to Dublin adds 2 minutes to the stop at Ballybrophy - hardly material in the greater scheme of things. This service will never be loco hauled.

    The real problem is going in the opposite direction - a direct service from Dublin to Limerick via Nenagh is frankly a non-starter given the track layout as no less than 3 reversals would have to take place. Hence the two evening trains are connecting services.


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    #42
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    lxflyer, no reversals at all would have to take place if the track towards Roscrea were aligned with the mainline. The train from Dublin could then do a gentle U around towards Roscrea, and the up-train could do the equivalent.


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    #43
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I'm aware of that - just making the point that it doesn't add as much time as you might imagine going towards Dublin.


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    #44
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,832 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The switch of ends for the train from Limerick to Dublin adds 2 minutes to the stop at Ballybrophy - hardly material in the greater scheme of things. This service will never be loco hauled.

    The real problem is going in the opposite direction - a direct service from Dublin to Limerick via Nenagh is frankly a non-starter given the track layout as no less than 3 reversals would have to take place. Hence the two evening trains are connecting services.
    slight tangent
    is there any website with schematics of junction layouts in Ireland? (like that in Ballybrophy or Limerick junction)

    maybe something along the lines of this for the tram lines in Munich:
    http://www.tram-muenchen.de/netzplaene/images/gleisplan-tram-m.pdf


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    #45
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    A single facing crossover is all that is needed (+updating the signalling system to take account of it, maybe just a single shunt signal or a route indicator feather) to eliminate the three shunting movements.

    Having said that, I wouldn't build it, there's no point giving the unviabilityof the line, I'd have closed everything but the Cork, Limerick and Galway mainlines by now. I'm just surprised that that one single bit of track has never been added in the decades it could have been or when the line was more important.


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    #46
    Hungerford
    Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    Jehuty42 wrote: »
    I'm just surprised that that one single bit of track has never been added in the decades it could have been or when the line was more important.

    The piece of track was there once but Irish Rail removed it because it was apparently unsafe to have a crossover there. I could comment on that statement but I won't.


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    #47
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    slight tangent
    is there any website with schematics of junction layouts in Ireland? (like that in Ballybrophy or Limerick junction)

    maybe something along the lines of this for the tram lines in Munich:
    http://www.tram-muenchen.de/netzplaene/images/gleisplan-tram-m.pdf

    Not that I know of - there is the Quail map diagram book, but that's a bit out of date now.

    Otherwise have a look at Google maps and use the satellite image.


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    #48
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    If small-scale work on the line is enough to eliminate reversing or shunting, and if a decision has been made to improve services, it seems to me a no-brainer to do those works. If the line is not worth that degree of effort, then yes, shut it down.


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    #49
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    If small-scale work on the line is enough to eliminate reversing or shunting, and if a decision has been made to improve services, it seems to me a no-brainer to do those works. If the line is not worth that degree of effort, then yes, shut it down.

    Well the problem is would necessitate closing the Cork line at Ballybrophy in both directions for a weekend I'd say, to get it all done. Then there would have to be a speed restriction for a few weeks afterwards as the work beds in. The expense of that is the problem, in terms of lost revenue and bustitutions.

    And frankly, the decision was made by Alan Kelly TD. IE has no interest in enabling him any more than they have to.


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    #50
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,965 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Hungerford wrote: »
    The piece of track was there once but Irish Rail removed it because it was apparently unsafe to have a crossover there. I could comment on that statement but I won't.

    Maybe you should comment on it or at least show us a source for your claim.


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    #51
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    To install a facing crossover along with all the associated signalling and interlocking you are looking at a cost of roughly EUR 3M. That is hardly small scale.

    Realistically that is not going to happen, unless this initiative produces results, and things improve economically. The trains have been provided at a minimal marginal cost - I think we need to see how the marginal revenue performs before making capital investment decisions of that magnitude.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I was watching Swiss Railway Journeys yesterday and one of their electric lines had a Kilkenny-style system which required changing ends. With a railcar it's not much of an issue anymore.

    I'm not 100% aware of the ex Dublin track layout at Ballybrophy though, think I'll have to fire up Train Simulator 2012 and test it. :D


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    #53
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    I wasn't aware there was an Irish route for TS2012- do tell!


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    #54
    flyingsnail
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭flyingsnail


    Jehuty42 wrote: »
    I wasn't aware there was an Irish route for TS2012- do tell!

    here you go
    http://www.uktrainsim.com/filelib-info.php?form_fileid=25225


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    #55
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Karsini wrote: »
    I was watching Swiss Railway Journeys yesterday and one of their electric lines had a Kilkenny-style system which required changing ends. With a railcar it's not much of an issue anymore.

    I'm not 100% aware of the ex Dublin track layout at Ballybrophy though, think I'll have to fire up Train Simulator 2012 and test it. :D

    Ex Dublin, a train arrives either into the down platform or the loop platform. Driver switches ends.

    Train then reverses over trailing crossover onto the up line until it has cleared the connection from the Nenagh bay platform. Driver switches ends again.

    Train then reverses a second time and proceeds into Nenagh bay platform. Driver switches ends again.

    Train then proceeds onto Nenagh branch. Add to that contacting CTC several times during the whole manoeuvre.


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    #56
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    flyingsnail wrote: »
    here you go
    http://www.uktrainsim.com/filelib-info.php?form_fileid=25225

    Oh yeah, I'd seen that before, but got turned off by having to download about 50 different things through a portal that puts you in a download queue and then having to work out dependencies and all sorts of messing about.


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    #57
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    It is a rather complex procedure (having witnessed it many times) that can take some time to complete.


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    #58
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Ex Dublin, a train arrives either into the down platform or the loop platform. Driver switches ends.

    Train then reverses over trailing crossover onto the up line until it has cleared the connection from the Nenagh bay platform. Driver switches ends again.

    Train then reverses a second time and proceeds into Nenagh bay platform. Driver switches ends again.

    Train then proceeds onto Nenagh branch. Add to that contacting CTC several times during the whole manoeuvre.
    Thanks for that, just tried it in the game there. Needlessly complicated.


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    #59
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    It also needs the co-operation of the signalman in Roscrea to release the ETS in Ballybrophy.


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    #60
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Correct.


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    #61
    Hungerford
    Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Maybe you should comment on it or at least show us a source for your claim.

    Okay, after a bit of research. The original track layout at Ballybrophy appears to have allowed trains from any platform bar what is now the Nenagh branch bay to access both the mainline and the branch. These connections were apparently severed by Irish Rail in the 1980s.

    More recently, there appears to have been a crossover allowing trains to move from the Cork-bound line onto the Dublin-bound one and then via another crossover onto the branch.

    According to Jack Doherty, a poster on the Rail Users Ireland who appears to be involved in the community rail partnership for the branch, these were removed because
    "it was a danger becuase the cross over from the down line to the up line for access to the NEnagh line ,the crossovers were both facing points!"


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