Miss Universe has a little secret...

Pherekydes · 10-04-2012 6:14pm

genericguy wrote: »

to be fair, the electro option is far less expensive than the other option some of these gay men who want to be women are constantly trying to get the government to pay for.

And this guy wants reasoned debate with your ilk:

Eramen wrote: »

'Transphobic', what a nice word.. You don't like a persons opinion so now you're trying to intimidate and de-legitimise because you don't want to engage in reasoned debate with them.

If you have to resort to name-calling and a cultural-marxist ideological framework you really have nothing to back up an opinion with.

hondasam · 10-04-2012 6:16pm

genericguy wrote: »

Yep, I did, however I can scribble on mine that I'm Ballabriggs but that doesn't mean I have a right to run in the fking grand national now, does it?

LOL are you a horse?

krudler · 10-04-2012 6:19pm

Gummy Panda wrote: »

They can get birth certs changed

I dont think they can in Ireland yet, they can in the UK though, open to correction on that

genericguy · 10-04-2012 6:25pm

hondasam wrote: »

LOL are you a horse?

Fúck it sure, if random men can call themselves women after swallowing a few tablets, then tonight matthew, i'm going to be a horsie.

The King of Moo · 10-04-2012 6:27pm

genericguy wrote: »

Fúck it sure, if random men can call themselves women after swallowing a few tablets, then tonight matthew, i'm going to be a horsie.

You know there's more involved than that.

Paulie Gualtieri · 10-04-2012 6:27pm

hooradiation wrote: »

I'll turn that question on it's head - what reason can you give as to why a transgendered person should not be be allowed to enter Miss Universe? Would they be gifted an unfair advantage? Or would there be aspects of the pageant they'd be incapable of performing?

If we accept it's a beauty contest and as such is simply about outward appearances then what's the issue?

you accept it as that , I dont , its a competition for real women , cant keep repeating that , when I have children id like them to know whats what in the world , not men who are women and women who are men , and the more mainstream that becomes the fcuked up this world will be . by all means let people have a transgender miss universe which there probably already is , and lets call a spade a spade.

hooradiation · 10-04-2012 6:32pm

Paulie Gualtieri wrote: »

you accept it as that , I dont ,

if it's not a beauty contest then what is it?

Paulie Gualtieri wrote: »

its a competition for real women , cant keep repeating that , when I have children id like them to know whats what in the world , not men who are women and women who are men , and the more mainstream that becomes the fcuked up this world will be . by all means let people have a transgender miss universe which there probably already is , and lets call a spade a spade.

So, you accept there is no difference between a "real woman" and a transgendered contestant?
Because unless there is some kind of advantage or disadvantage conferred on the transgenedered contestant by the virtue of their status as transgendered, then there is no compelling argument to keep them out of the competition.

Your worldview, fears for children as yet unborn and slippery slope fallacies don't matter.

hondasam · 10-04-2012 6:33pm

genericguy wrote: »

Fúck it sure, if random men can call themselves women after swallowing a few tablets, then tonight matthew, i'm going to be a horsie.

I will be honest here and say there was a time I would have had the same opinion as some posters on here. It was someone on boards who helped change my mind and educate me about what it's like to be transgender.
I had not given it much thought until I got friendly with this person and she gave me stuff to read up on. It's not as simple as swallowing a few tablets and I guess you know that.

Eramen · 10-04-2012 6:34pm

I think the real reason why people are attempting to describe transgender people as being female is simply a result of societal conditioning and popular icons that people in most western countries absorb on a day-to-day basis, nothing more. It's not factual or scientific in the sense of us being absolutely certain they are women with the necessary proof. Indeed this will never be the case.

If a transgendered person were indeed a female we would call them a 'female', but we do not call them this since it is recognized that they are transgender, because that do not have the biology traits of a woman nor the hormonal etc, thus the generally accepted description contains this information "transgender".

Miss Universe is a competition for females, and the fact that people who simply 'identify with females' can enjoy the same privileges as a genuine female is just a pushing of this aforementioned social conditioning on the populace. Ultimately it is a cultivation of the ideology of the day (promoted in hollywood, lobby groups, social-think tanks etc) in the masses, it's nothing to do with the journey of self-discovery of the transgendered person - they are just a pawn in a much larger game - and this nothing more than a cruelty to them.

Anyone worth their salt knows this, and the larger forces at play, of false-altruism and an impossible egalitarianism at all costs - even if it means ripping functional society as we know it apart..

Note: I've no problem with trangendered people, as long as they aren't part of a political lobby group reflecting a particular group sexual identity, because this kind of politics is based on lobbying which implies a special interest and is adverse to common interest of all.

The King of Moo · 10-04-2012 6:36pm

Paulie Gualtieri wrote: »

you accept it as that , I dont , its a competition for real women , cant keep repeating that , when I have children id like them to know whats what in the world , not men who are women and women who are men , and the more mainstream that becomes the fcuked up this world will be . by all means let people have a transgender miss universe which there probably already is , and lets call a spade a spade.

But if you want them to know how things are in the world, you'd do well to let them know that gender identities are more complex than a simple binary opposition between masculinity and femininity, because that's how things are in the world.
The average Joe/sephine has a combination of stereotypically masculine and feminine traits, even if one side dominates.
And it's simply a fact that people are born who identify themselves as a particular gender different from their biological identity.
Even if you don't agree with such people having sex changes or think they have psychological problems, if you want your children to know how the world is, then you'll need to let them know about such people.

hooradiation · 10-04-2012 6:37pm

Eramen wrote: »

Note: I've no problem with trangendered people, as long as they aren't part of a political lobby group reflecting a particular group sexual identity, because this kind of politics is based on lobbying which implies a special interest, and not a common interest.

"I'm fine with them as long as they don't cause a fuss by trying to change anything."

hondasam · 10-04-2012 6:40pm

Paulie Gualtieri wrote: »

you accept it as that , I dont , its a competition for real women , cant keep repeating that , when I have children id like them to know whats what in the world , not men who are women and women who are men , and the more mainstream that becomes the fcuked up this world will be . by all means let people have a transgender miss universe which there probably already is , and lets call a spade a spade.

No one knows what life has in store for them.
These kids you hope to have, what if one of them is transgender? This conversation could resurface in your life in 10/20 yrs time. It's hard to say if you would be bothered or not, most people say they would not be bothered until faced with the reality.

genericguy · 10-04-2012 6:40pm

hooradiation wrote: »

So, you accept there is no difference between a "real woman" and a transgendered contestant?

there's a huge difference - one is a real woman,and the other is a transgendered contestant.

gypsy_rose · 10-04-2012 6:41pm

For all you budding biologists stating so knowingly that a man is born with an X and a Y chromosome and a women is born with two X chromosomes, may I refer you to these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

The beauty of nature is that it is never clear cut or black and white. I think God just loves ****ing with us.

hooradiation · 10-04-2012 6:42pm

genericguy wrote: »

there's a huge difference - one is a real woman,and the other is a transgendered contestant.

Fine then, maybe you'd like to point out what part of the competition they'd have an advantage or disadvantage in by virtue of being transgendered.

I'll wait, take your time.

Eramen · 10-04-2012 6:43pm

hooradiation wrote: »

"I'm fine with them as long as they don't cause a fuss by trying to change anything."

You misunderstand, authentic society is based on individual rights, not group rights which are simply a tool to exploit the rest of society for a special interest group.

You would rather further your own misguided ideology than the common interest of all.

Immaculate Pasta · 10-04-2012 6:45pm

If ladyboys are allowed, would lesbians who dress like blokes be eligible to enter Miss Universe?

hooradiation · 10-04-2012 6:46pm

Eramen wrote: »

You misunderstand, authentic society is based on individual rights, not group rights which are simply a tool to exploit the rest of society of a special interest group.

No, I don't misunderstand.
You were quite clear on exactly what you meant.

The amazing thing is you manage to hold the above 'worldview' and still interact with this one without exploding.
It's quite the feat.

genericguy · 10-04-2012 6:47pm

hooradiation wrote: »

Fine then, maybe you'd like to point out what part of the competition they'd have an advantage or disadvantage in by virtue of being transgendered.

I'll wait, take your time.

advantage or disadvantage is not the issue. the issue is that they are men.

hondasam · 10-04-2012 6:49pm

genericguy wrote: »

advantage or disadvantage is not the issue. the issue is that they are men.

No they were born male but are now female.

hooradiation · 10-04-2012 6:52pm

genericguy wrote: »

advantage or disadvantage is not the issue. the issue is that they are men.

So, you can't offer even one?
How utterly predictable.

Here's some friendly advice, if you can't provide a coherent reason for your opinion, then your opinion is wrong and you should re evaluate it.

Get busy.

Eramen · 10-04-2012 6:57pm

hooradiation wrote: »

So, you can't offer even one?
How utterly predictable.

Here's some friendly advice, if you can't provide a coherent reason for your opinion, then your opinion is wrong and you should re evaluate it.

Get busy.

Cod wallop psychology and 'hollywood normality' is not coherent reasoning it's just plain fanciful.. though you do have a nice high-horse, shame you've saddled it the wrong way.

hondasam · 10-04-2012 6:59pm

hooradiation wrote: »

So, you can't offer even one?
How utterly predictable.

Here's some friendly advice, if you can't provide a coherent reason for your opinion, then your opinion is wrong and you should re evaluate it.

Get busy.

Right or wrong, it's his opinion and he is entitled to it, does not make him wrong.He believes what he believes.

Hunchback · 10-04-2012 7:10pm

dr.bollocko · 10-04-2012 7:34pm

Mod:

Creeping death banned.

L.Jenkins · 10-04-2012 7:39pm

Hamhide wrote: »

its hard not to feed the trolls.they look so hunrgy

Well I have ignored them until now.

angerfist2009 wrote: »

...I could just respond to that by saying well im doing no harm in having my own opinion...

On the internet maybe. But would you man up and say it to someones face, mine even as I'm a male to female transsexual.

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Mod:

Creeping death banned.

You sir are a legand.

woodoo · 10-04-2012 7:42pm

Not a real woman.

Galwayguy35 · 10-04-2012 7:44pm

davet82 wrote: »

The Miss Universe pageant is changing its rules and will allow transgender women to take part in all of its competitions starting in 2013, the organization and gay rights group GLAAD said on Tuesday.

I'm all for equal rights but... well it seems a little odd to me.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/miss-universe-changes-rules-transgender-women-130026879.html

Still looks like a man even with the long hair.

How Soon Is Now · 10-04-2012 7:49pm

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

On the internet maybe. But would you man up and say it to someones face, mine even as I'm a male to female transsexual.

Yes why wouldnt i ?

Should i be afraid to speak my mind or something ?

SugarCoat · 10-04-2012 7:51pm

Just for the sake of stirring the pot...

Transexual or not there is hardly anything natural about women anymore.Think about it,Fake nails,fake hair colour,hair extensions,hair removal,fake boobs,make-up and starvation diets.From that point of view they should be seen as women.

let the storm commence!

L.Jenkins · 10-04-2012 7:53pm

angerfist2009 wrote: »

Yes why wouldnt i ?

Should i be afraid to speak my mind or something ?

Oh you shouldn't buddy. It's much easier for a troll to speak their mind on the internet than in real life in the exact same way, which can be hazardous to ones health.

Doc Ruby · 10-04-2012 7:53pm

I can't fathom why anyone would care to be honest. I've loads of gay/lesbian/trans/whatever friends and they're just people as far as I'm concerned.

Sexual preference is not an eyeball-borne contagion.

Anyways I haven't much time for the Miss Universe stuff, I likes me women with a bit more mate on their bones.

How Soon Is Now · 10-04-2012 7:55pm

krudler wrote: »

"its my opinion" is the go to response for ignorant bigots who cant fathom there are people who dont share their close minded views.

Maybe if more people spoke there minds there wouldn't be so many two faced ****s going around.

Its really easy to win an argument on here when your agreeing with the rest of the moral police.

How Soon Is Now · 10-04-2012 7:57pm

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Oh you shouldn't buddy. It's much easier for a troll to speak their mind on the internet than in real life in the exact same way, which can be hazardous to ones health.

lol everyones a bloody troll when there opinions are not agreed with by the main fan base on here.

If i feel something i say it internet or in person weather its ''Hazardous to ones health'' or not.

Dudess · 10-04-2012 8:01pm

krudler wrote: »

"its my opinion" is the go to response for ignorant bigots who cant fathom there are people who dont share their close minded views.

Up there with:

"Political correctness gone mad!"
"What about free speech?"
"That's censorship!"

hondasam · 10-04-2012 8:02pm

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Oh you shouldn't buddy. It's much easier for a troll to speak their mind on the internet than in real life in the exact same way, which can be hazardous to ones health.

you sound very aggressive considering you are a lady.

L.Jenkins · 10-04-2012 8:17pm

hondasam wrote: »

you sound very aggressive considering you are a lady.

Just started HRT today and I'm alittle moody and wired at the moment.

hondasam · 10-04-2012 8:22pm

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Just started HRT today and I'm alittle moody and wired at the moment.

Welcome to the world of women, hormones and mood swings

Links234 · 10-04-2012 9:44pm

by god people, what is wrong with some of you?

seriously. do you not know that when you are talking about transgender people, you are talking about living, breathing human beings, who have feelings, hopes, dreams and lives? some of whom are reading this thread? and you talk like trans people are utterly inhuman? some people here really need to take a good long look in the mirror, and seriously cop on. I see that yet again, certain individuals are continuing to post like fanatics about trans issues, spewing the same ill-informed nonsense they have in countless threads before it. every time a thread like this comes up, there's some people who always seem to show up, one in particular who seems to have a huge axe to grind, and really it's gone beyond obsessive and it's just downright creepy.

I'll say it again, as I have a dozen times already, being transgender is NOT a mental illness/disorder or any form of psychiatric condition, it's been de-listed as a mental illness already in many countries, many professional mental health organizations have stated that it is not a mental illness and have gone on to advise against psychiatric treatment of transsexuality, deeming it to be ineffective. As well as that, in the past decade there has been an ever-increasing amount of evidence that shows transsexuality to have biological causes.

just one example of this: Transsexual Gene Link Identified

so lets please stop posting nonsense about transgender people

Links234 · 10-04-2012 9:56pm

Oh, and one other thing... YES, transgender women can compete in the olympics as women for years now, there's nothing new there.

they can compete, because after some time on hormone treatment, any physical advantage they might have had from being under the effects of testosterone are lost. my own musculature has changed drastically in the relatively short time I've been on treatment.

this will give you an idea of the kind of physiological changes that happen with male to female hormone treatment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlk3nNya93M

so yes, trans women can compete in the olympics

Chorcai · 10-04-2012 10:00pm

genericguy wrote: »

to be fair, the electro option is far less expensive than the other option some of these gay men who want to be women are constantly trying to get the government to pay for.

Most of the people I know who are trans were hetrosexual male and female who had gender reasignment, I still view them as hetrosexual, they have no desire to be with the same sex. To add another point I know more hetrosexual women who want or are about to become a man. 99.99999% of the gay men I know only want to be with gay men, and don't want to become a woman.

Chuck Stone · 10-04-2012 10:04pm

So can you still enter if you have a dick or wha?

Capt'n Midnight · 10-04-2012 10:06pm

Chorcai wrote: »

99.99999% of the gay men I know only want to be with gay men, and don't want to become a woman.

you know 1,000,000 people :eek:

Badly Drunk Boy · 10-04-2012 10:09pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

They get their birth certs changed to reflect their current gender.

Didn't you know?

http://www.gidi.ie/Legal_2.htm

Birth Certificates are accepted as proof of personal identity for a wide range of administrative and legal procedures. Consequently people who change their surnames by adopting a new surname which has no connection with their former one, may experience some difficulty when they produce a birth certificate in which their surname differs from the one in usage.

It is advisable therefore to prepare at the time at which the change is made a formal deed poll or affidavit indicating that you have ceased to use the former surname and that henceforth wish to be known by the assumed name.

It should be noted that at this present time you cannot legally change your gender as it currently recorded on your Birth Certificate, however this policy may change at a future date.

Links234 · 10-04-2012 10:14pm

Also, this is a really good article by Natalie Reed:

Bilaterally Gynandromorphic Chickens And Why I’m Not “Scientifically” Male

The truth is chromosomes don’t really play all that much of a role in human sexual differentiation. That work is done by hormones. Basically, all of our cells (and tissues) carry the genetic potential to express themselves in either female or male ways. Hormones come along and send a little message to activate certain genes or deactivate other ones. Estrogen comes in and says, “Okay, ladies! Time to do girl stuff!”… or testosterone struts on in and says “Listen, dudes. It’s time to man up. Hoo-hah!”.

I’ve also come across the misconception that there are such things as “male cells” and “female cells”. It doesn’t work like that. The Y chromosome doesn’t really do much. Basically, it only has one real function, and that’s to transform the embryonic ovaries into testes, which then triggers the cascade of hormones that signal the necessary mutations and cellular functions that create a male body. The rest of the Y chromosome is mostly just deteriorating junk DNA. And in the case of XX cells, one of those X chromosomes is deactivated. This means there is pretty much no functional difference between an XX cell and an XY cell at all.

How Soon Is Now · 10-04-2012 10:16pm

Links234 wrote: »

by god people, what is wrong with some of you?

seriously. do you not know that when you are talking about transgender people, you are talking about living, breathing human beings, who have feelings, hopes, dreams and lives? some of whom are reading this thread? and you talk like trans people are utterly inhuman? some people here really need to take a good long look in the mirror, and seriously cop on. I see that yet again, certain individuals are continuing to post like fanatics about trans issues, spewing the same ill-informed nonsense they have in countless threads before it. every time a thread like this comes up, there's some people who always seem to show up, one in particular who seems to have a huge axe to grind, and really it's gone beyond obsessive and it's just downright creepy.

I'll say it again, as I have a dozen times already, being transgender is NOT a mental illness/disorder or any form of psychiatric condition, it's been de-listed as a mental illness already in many countries, many professional mental health organizations have stated that it is not a mental illness and have gone on to advise against psychiatric treatment of transsexuality, deeming it to be ineffective. As well as that, in the past decade there has been an ever-increasing amount of evidence that shows transsexuality to have biological causes.

just one example of this: Transsexual Gene Link Identified

so lets please stop posting nonsense about transgender people

Understand something here ok i know what it is but i actually dont care.

Just because you,s get your links and your facts and the rest of your ****e and throw it up here all the time that does not mean i have to agree or like it.

Thats the beauty of having your own mind you think for yourself.

What is it with certain groups of people that if you dont except and embrace them that they get so uptight about throwing ****ing facts and statements in your face.

Unfortunately not everyone sees things the same its just life ok.

If i dont like something theres not much you or anyone else can do about it. Weather its a condition or not changes nothing.

Namlub · 10-04-2012 10:20pm

SugarCoat wrote: »

Just for the sake of stirring the pot...

Transexual or not there is hardly anything natural about women anymore.Think about it,Fake nails,fake hair colour,hair extensions,hair removal,fake boobs,make-up and starvation diets.From that point of view they should be seen as women.

let the storm commence!

o wow u are so controversial

The King of Moo · 10-04-2012 10:21pm

angerfist2009 wrote: »

Understand something here ok i know what it is but i actually dont care.

Just because you,s get your links and your facts and the rest of your ****e and throw it up here all the time that does not mean i have to agree or like it.

Thats the beauty of having your own mind you think for yourself.

What is it with certain groups of people that if you dont except and embrace them that they get so uptight about throwing ****ing facts and statements in your face.

Unfortunately not everyone sees things the same its just life ok.

If i dont like something theres not much you or anyone else can do about it. Weather its a condition or not changes nothing.

Refusing to believe verified facts is not the same as having your own mind.

I won't say what refusing to believe facts actually is.

Links234 · 10-04-2012 10:22pm

There's such a thing as being factually incorrect though angerfist

oh, and it wouldn't be a "politically correct" AH thread without a Stewart Lee video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n-UGQcG3Jw

Dudess · 10-04-2012 10:24pm

Angerfist, I think if you were told you were a freak etc for something you can't control, and all the other verbal vomit by that individual who was banned and whom you agree with, you'd spout facts and figures to defend yourself too.
It's true you can't help how you feel if the idea makes you uncomfortable and you can't fully understand it, but to agree with the pure uninformed hate that person wrote is a bit much.

Miss Universe has a little secret...

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