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The Dark side of the game.

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭2moreMinutes


    It's actually laughable at this stage how little things are grabbed and expanded upon to try to muddy the waters or to justify the pathetic actions of last weekend.

    Was the collapsing to the ground better or worse if the red card wasn't as a direct result of it?
    Is collapsing to the ground over nothing perfectly ok so long as another player isn't reprimanded as a result?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,291 ✭✭✭tanko


    It's actually laughable at this stage how little things are grabbed and expanded upon to try to muddy the waters or to justify the pathetic actions of last weekend.

    Was the collapsing to the ground better or worse if the red card wasn't as a direct result of it?
    Is collapsing to the ground over nothing perfectly ok so long as another player isn't reprimanded as a result?

    The "pathetic actions of last weekend" have been going on for years in the football championship and the disciplinary powers that be in the GAA didn't pass any remarks. Surely the reason couldn't be that it depends which county the culprit comes from that determines whether they're punished or not?

    Apparently collapsing to the ground over nothing has been ok for lots of players but not if they happen to be from Tyrone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    tanko wrote: »
    The "pathetic actions of last weekend" have been going on for years in the football championship and the disciplinary powers that be in the GAA didn't pass any remarks. Surely the reason couldn't be that it depends which county the culprit comes from that determines whether they're punished or not?

    This idea that it's just targeting Tyrone for no reason whatsoever other than that they're Tyrone is laughable. Why do you think people would target Tyrone? What would you imagine is the problem everyone has with them. As I mentioned before, I'm from Kilkenny, I couldn't give a sh1te who wins or loses in football, so you needn't go looking for an agenda in what I'm saying, but objectively, I've never seen anything as pathetic as what McCann did, ever, on a GAA field. It severely undermined the game. And no it wasn't the first time someone's done it, but it's nothing to do with being from Tyrone either. Ye should get that out of yer heads.


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    As pathetic as the dive was, I still believe Hughes deserved a red card for what he did. He (nor any GAA player) had no business raising his hands and attempting to pull another players hair.

    It is equally as pathetic as the dive and I am glad the referee took action and sent him off. It is a shame that footballers end up resorting to this rubbish and not focusing on their own game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭thesultan


    Fella's running into the tackling hand and dropping down. Sean Cavanagh is master at it. A hands across the chest is not a foul. Blow the players for over carrying. Eoin McGrath was a master at it in hurling as good oceans of soft frees.


  • Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭wackokid


    cournioni wrote: »
    As pathetic as the dive was, I still believe Hughes deserved a red card for what he did. He (nor any GAA player) had no business raising his hands and attempting to pull another players hair.

    It is equally as pathetic as the dive and I am glad the referee took action and sent him off. It is a shame that footballers end up resorting to this rubbish and not focusing on their own game.

    He got the red card for his assault on Colm Cavanagh. Listen to the commentary and watch the incident.


  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Jippo


    wackokid wrote: »
    He got the red card for his assault on Colm Cavanagh. Listen to the commentary and watch the incident.

    Assault???!! Have you proof of this (that the ref sent him off for the "assault")? Have you seen the ref's report?

    I would have thought the ref was thinking black. Was Hughes on yellow and would have gotten a red because of that?

    It actually shouldn't matter (whether Hughes got sent off or not) but the fact of the matter is that not half as much was made of Shields' incident because the referee saw what happened. McCann is getting a raw deal no doubt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,978 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    . Really, there is a responsibility on players and management here. You just cant be relying on the referee for everything.


    Exactly!!


    No matter what rules are amended/introduced etc. the buck for the antics we are starting to witness regularly has to stop at the players and/or the coaches that condone it.

    By all means ensure that there are proper consequences that are clear and unambiguous but there are always ways and means around rules. To this end there has to be responsability taken by the players on the field of play irrespective of whether there is a rule to cover an offence.

    There's "right" and there's "wrong" and you don't have to constantly break rules in order to win.

    I also agree that the "ruffling" of someones hair is provocative, and a goading action in it's own right. It's as much of an act of gamesmanship as the dive that followed it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭wackokid


    Jippo wrote: »
    Assault???!! Have you proof of this (that the ref sent him off for the "assault")? Have you seen the ref's report?

    I would have thought the ref was thinking black. Was Hughes on yellow and would have gotten a red because of that?

    It actually shouldn't matter (whether Hughes got sent off or not) but the fact of the matter is that not half as much was made of Shields' incident because the referee saw what happened. McCann is getting a raw deal no doubt.

    No, I didn't see the refs report, but did see the assault and heard the SKY commentator say " Hughes is for the long walk after that tackle"

    Perhaps you will know why that great warrior Paul Geaney thought it necessary to welt into Shields? He is one nasty piece of goods and will get his comeuppance soon.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,950 ✭✭✭dixiefly


    wackokid wrote: »
    No, I didn't see the refs report, but did see the assault and heard the SKY commentator say " Hughes is for the long walk after that tackle"

    Perhaps you will know why that great warrior Paul Geaney thought it necessary to welt into Shields? He is one nasty piece of goods and will get his comeuppance soon.
    Wacko,
    I asked you the question before also, at least you have attempted to answer it here. However you are saying with almost certainty that Hughes was not sent off for the McCann incident. You dont know, I think he was and we will have to wait to see what comes from the report.

    However, it doesnt change the fact that Tiernan behaviour was pathetic and he cheated. Why he did it only he knows.


  • Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭wackokid


    I only know what I see and hear after watching the last 15 minutes of that game on SKY + in real time and slow motion at least 10 times.
    This constant castigating of McCann by mainly Kerry scribes every place there is written word, tells it's own tale as they tried hard to make a dangerous villain out of the Cork midfielder Alan O Connor after the drawn match.
    This is my last post on the subject as it's beginning to grate on my nerves. McCann did his dive with a smile at least and not like Aidan O Mahony a seasoned operator ( twice) whose occupation would surely demand honesty on the field of play. A bit rich for Kerry people to adopt this holier than thou attitude now. They also have the king of skulduggery in their ranks who thinks its proper to flake the notebook out of a referees hand and a litany of other nasty tricks.
    This thing of bringing the game into disrepute for feigning injury rings hollow in comparison to the other stuff that's endemic in gaelic games.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    wackokid wrote: »
    I only know what I see and hear after watching the last 15 minutes of that game on SKY + in real time and slow motion at least 10 times.
    This constant castigating of McCann by mainly Kerry scribes every place there is written word, tells it's own tale as they tried hard to make a dangerous villain out of the Cork midfielder Alan O Connor after the drawn match.
    This is my last post on the subject as it's beginning to grate on my nerves. McCann did his dive with a smile at least and not like Aidan O Mahony a seasoned operator ( twice) whose occupation would surely demand honesty on the field of play. A bit rich for Kerry people to adopt this holier than thou attitude now. They also have the king of skulduggery in their ranks who thinks its proper to flake the notebook out of a referees hand and a litany of other nasty tricks.
    This thing of bringing the game into disrepute for feigning injury rings hollow in comparison to the other stuff that's endemic in gaelic games.

    A ref can only deal with what he sees. If we are to demand that level of consistency i.e. that all transgressions must be treated equally, then the only solution is to punish no transgression.
    Rather than contrast a punishment with a let off, we should rejoice each time an offender is caught and punished, and hope for more of the same in futur.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm from Kilkenny, I couldn't give a sh1te who wins or loses in football, so you needn't go looking for an agenda in what I'm saying, but objectively, I've never seen anything as pathetic as what McCann did, ever, on a GAA field.

    Are you sure about that?

    You know some Tyrone supporters here think it's pretty much fanned by Kerry fans, a RTE and GAA conspiracy to support Kerry, some even say Dublin and Mayo are good stock but Kerrymen are bad to the bone.

    You may have to prove your credentials, could you post a pic of your birth cert and utility bill with your address? Could you list all contact with Kerry in the past 5 years?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    wackokid wrote: »
    They also have the king of skulduggery in their ranks who thinks its proper to flake the notebook out of a referees hand and a litany of other nasty tricks.

    Ummmmmmmmmm...for which he got a lengthy ban and which seriously affected the outcome of the Championship.

    And he could have few complaints, although some would say assaulting a sheet of paper didn't merit that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Jippo


    wackokid wrote: »
    No, I didn't see the refs report, but did see the assault and heard the SKY commentator say " Hughes is for the long walk after that tackle"

    Perhaps you will know why that great warrior Paul Geaney thought it necessary to welt into Shields? He is one nasty piece of goods and will get his comeuppance soon.

    ...because SKY said it is gospel?

    If you think that Paul Geaney is a nasty piece of goods... ha ha ha!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,291 ✭✭✭tanko


    This idea that it's just targeting Tyrone for no reason whatsoever other than that they're Tyrone is laughable. Why do you think people would target Tyrone? What would you imagine is the problem everyone has with them. As I mentioned before, I'm from Kilkenny, I couldn't give a sh1te who wins or loses in football, so you needn't go looking for an agenda in what I'm saying, but objectively, I've never seen anything as pathetic as what McCann did, ever, on a GAA field. It severely undermined the game. And no it wasn't the first time someone's done it, but it's nothing to do with being from Tyrone either. Ye should get that out of yer heads.

    If it's nothing to do with with being from Tyrone then why were players from other counties not punished in the same way for doing the same thing?

    If you think what McCann did is the most pathetic thing you've seen on a GAA field I can only conclude you haven't seen much. I've seen some disgraceful acts of thuggery and violence in club and county matches all over the country which resulted in some players in hospital with serious injuries.

    Young McCann made a mistake in the heat of the moment. Anyone would be forgiven for thinking he shot a couple of Monaghan players going by some of the reaction here.
    BTW "everyone" doesn't have a problem with Tyrone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Ummmmmmmmmm...for which he got a lengthy ban and which seriously affected the outcome of the Championship.

    And he could have few complaints, although some would say assaulting a sheet of paper didn't merit that.

    Yet again you're full of crap. I've probably been the Tyrone poster who's had the most to say about this on here and I've never mentioned Kerry. In fact I said eamon Fitz came out and supported McCann.

    I've also never said there was a conspiracy. I've said rte are anti Tyrone and that this ban is only being levelled because it was a Tyrone player.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    Jayop wrote: »
    Yet again you're full of crap. I've probably been the Tyrone poster who's had the most to say about this on here and I've never mentioned Kerry. In fact I said eamon Fitz came out and supported McCann.

    I've also never said there was a conspiracy. I've said rte are anti Tyrone and that this ban is only being levelled because it was a Tyrone player.

    Why would rte be anti Tyrone? There's no motivation to be anti or pro anyone, it makes no difference to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Why would rte be anti Tyrone? There's no motivation to be anti or pro anyone, it makes no difference to them.

    Look it up. I've recited the story enough times on here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    The Sunday games official twitter account favourited a tweet by Anthony moyles saying he hoped kerry battered tyrone.

    Unbiased national broadcaster.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,101 ✭✭✭klairondavis


    Anthony Moyles is a regular contributor on Newstalk. Does that make them biased against Tyrone too?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Anthony Moyles is a regular contributor on Newstalk. Does that make them biased against Tyrone too?

    Way to miss the point.

    I don't care what that muppet moyles thinks, the problem is that the official rte Sunday game Twitter favourited this.

    I hope Kerry knock seven shades out of these Tyrone lads ...that McCann lad needs a serious lesson given to him
    12:25am - 9 Aug 15

    A tweet encouraging violence against a team and an individual player. But yeah, we're all paranoid up north.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,101 ✭✭✭klairondavis


    Jayop wrote: »
    Way to miss the point.

    I don't care what that muppet moyles thinks, the problem is that the official rte Sunday game Twitter favourited this.

    I hope Kerry knock seven shades out of these Tyrone lads ...that McCann lad needs a serious lesson given to him
    12:25am - 9 Aug 15

    A tweet encouraging violence against a team and an individual player. But yeah, we're all paranoid up north.

    The individual person manning the Sunday Game twitter account at that time favourites a tweet and it's evidence of an agenda against Tyrone? A little bit of perspective is required here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    The individual person manning the Sunday Game twitter account at that time favourites a tweet and it's evidence of an agenda against Tyrone? A little bit of perspective is required here.

    Jesus yeah of course I need perspective. Rte didn't even come up with that excuse, theirs was even more pathetic than your effort.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭2moreMinutes


    Jayop wrote: »
    Jesus yeah of course I need perspective. Rte didn't even come up with that excuse, theirs was even more pathetic than your effort.
    What was RTE's 'excuse'?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    What was RTE's 'excuse'?

    That Twitter defined th favourite button as either to favourite a tweet, ie. Indicate you like/agree or use it to file tweets for later. Some nonsense like that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    What I don't get is why that foul at the end of the hurling today which effectively decided that game and was as cynical as anything I've seen on a pitch gets glossed over and barely mentioned. Certainly the galway lads manliness wasn't questioned.

    I see things like that all the time in hurling but never given the attention they get at football. Why is that?

    My opinion is because the hurling pundits prefer to focus on the good things rather than just ramming problems down your throat whereas the football equivalent can only see issues in everything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    Jayop wrote: »
    What I don't get is why that foul at the end of the hurling today which effectively decided that game and was as cynical as anything I've seen on a pitch gets glossed over and barely mentioned. Certainly the galway lads manliness wasn't questioned.

    I see things like that all the time in hurling but never given the attention they get at football. Why is that?

    My opinion is because the hurling pundits prefer to focus on the good things rather than just ramming problems down your throat whereas the football equivalent can only see issues in everything.

    Which foul are you referring to..?
    The Galway full back's pull-down of Callinan.?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    washman3 wrote: »
    Which foul are you referring to..?
    The Galway full back's pull-down of Callinan.?

    Yeah, that led to the missed pen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,993 ✭✭✭randd1


    Jayop wrote: »
    Yeah, that led to the missed pen.

    The defender didn't go out to deliberately foul a man as a first resort, he went for the ball, missed and then fouled him. Cynical, but most definitely not pre-determined.

    And Callanan didn't dive on the ground holding his face to get the man sent off for absolutely nothing, instead he tried getting up as quick as he could after a seriously tough challenge.

    World of a difference altogether.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,261 ✭✭✭Grueller


    randd1 wrote: »
    The defender didn't go out to deliberately foul a man as a first resort, he went for the ball, missed and then fouled him. Cynical, but most definitely not pre-determined.

    And Callanan didn't dive on the ground holding his face to get the man sent off for absolutely nothing, instead he tried getting up as quick as he could after a seriously tough challenge.

    World of a difference altogether.

    Very similar to Sean Cavanagh on Conor McManus though and Cavanagh was castigated from a height for it. It was a very cynical foul by Hanbury, but he was 100% right to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,993 ✭✭✭randd1


    Grueller wrote: »
    Very similar to Sean Cavanagh on Conor McManus though and Cavanagh was castigated from a height for it. It was a very cynical foul by Hanbury, but he was 100% right to do it.

    Cynical, yes, but you get the impression with Cavanagh, and Tyrone in general, the foul to slow down play is the first thing on the mind, not winning the ball with a tackle.

    Hanbury, and hurling in general, tend to go for the ball or the tackle first, then the foul if needs be.

    Essentially, while both sports are cynical, there's a difference in how hurling and football approach winning the ball and tackling. That's probably why football cynicism tends to get more flak, football cynicism is more pre-determined and a tactic, hurling cynicism is more in the heat of the moment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭2moreMinutes


    Jayop wrote: »
    What I don't get is why that foul at the end of the hurling today which effectively decided that game and was as cynical as anything I've seen on a pitch gets glossed over and barely mentioned. Certainly the galway lads manliness wasn't questioned.

    I see things like that all the time in hurling but never given the attention they get at football. Why is that?

    My opinion is because the hurling pundits prefer to focus on the good things rather than just ramming problems down your throat whereas the football equivalent can only see issues in everything.
    The hurling pundits generally do focus on the good points but do so to the detriment of any proper analysis. The die hards in the hurling community can't see anything wrong no matter what happens on the pitch. For me, it's sickening, embarrassing and hilarious in equal measures.

    The incident in the first half when a Galway lad pulled his hurl that led to a few minutes stoppage wasn't dwelt on either even though imo, hitting someone with a hurl is about as cowardly as it gets and is far worse than a lad collapsing after getting hit by a breath of fresh air.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    Grueller wrote: »
    Very similar to Sean Cavanagh on Conor McManus though and Cavanagh was castigated from a height for it. It was a very cynical foul by Hanbury, but he was 100% right to do it.

    Joey Holden did the same last weekend (on Dunford I think),
    Rightly or wrongly it happens regularly - perhaps an argument for a black card in hurling

    Hanbury only did what Tipp did up the other end stopping Donnellan, and saving the subsequent penalty


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,261 ✭✭✭Grueller


    Joey Holden did the same last weekend (on Dunford I think),
    Rightly or wrongly it happens regularly - perhaps an argument for a black card in hurling

    Hanbury only did what Tipp did up the other end stopping Donnellan, and saving the subsequent penalty

    Yup. Like I said. They were 100% right to do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    randd1 wrote: »
    Cynical, yes, but you get the impression with Cavanagh, and Tyrone in general, the foul to slow down play is the first thing on the mind, not winning the ball with a tackle.

    Hanbury, and hurling in general, tend to go for the ball or the tackle first, then the foul if needs be.

    Essentially, while both sports are cynical, there's a difference in how hurling and football approach winning the ball and tackling. That's probably why football cynicism tends to get more flak, football cynicism is more pre-determined and a tactic, hurling cynicism is more in the heat of the moment.

    Hurling cynicism doesn't work as well as it does in football.It's piss easy to score the vast majority of frees in hurling whereas anything outside 30 metres in football is missable and therefore cynicism in football get a greater reward.Hurlers are not really any different than footballers it's just that it doesn't pay as much to be cynical in hurling as it does in football.

    I always hated this idea that the media put out constantly that hurlers are giants of men and have great sportsmanship and wouldn't dare being dishonest on the field and footballers are nothing but dirty cheats (even Tomas O'Se did it in a fairly sh1te article he wrote for the indo this summer).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,950 ✭✭✭dixiefly


    wackokid wrote: »
    He got the red card for his assault on Colm Cavanagh. Listen to the commentary and watch the incident.

    Well wacko,

    Are you now willing to accept why Hughes was sent off?

    http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=242775

    Hughes red was for McCann hair tousle
    18 August 2015

    Monaghan's Darren Hughes.
    ©INPHO/Cathal Noonan.
    It has been confirmed that Monaghan's Darren Hughes was sent off for striking Tiernan McCann.

    The Scotstown clubman was dismissed late in last Saturday week's controversial All-Ireland quarter-final Croke Park when he brushed his fingers fleetingly through McCann's hair and the Tyrone man went to ground.

    There were suggestions that perhaps Hughes was in fact sent off for an earlier challenge on Colm Cavanagh but Monaghan County Board has confirmed to The Irish News that their player was dismissed by referee Marty Duffy for "striking with the hand".

    McCann has had an eight-week ban proposed for diving and his appeal will be heard this week ahead of Sunday's semi-final against Kerry.

    Meanwhile, Monaghan have made a submission to have Hughes' red card rescinded.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    dixiefly wrote: »
    Well wacko,

    Are you now willing to accept why Hughes was sent off?

    http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=242775

    Hughes red was for McCann hair tousle
    18 August 2015

    Monaghan's Darren Hughes.
    ©INPHO/Cathal Noonan.
    It has been confirmed that Monaghan's Darren Hughes was sent off for striking Tiernan McCann.

    The Scotstown clubman was dismissed late in last Saturday week's controversial All-Ireland quarter-final Croke Park when he brushed his fingers fleetingly through McCann's hair and the Tyrone man went to ground.

    There were suggestions that perhaps Hughes was in fact sent off for an earlier challenge on Colm Cavanagh but Monaghan County Board has confirmed to The Irish News that their player was dismissed by referee Marty Duffy for "striking with the hand".

    McCann has had an eight-week ban proposed for diving and his appeal will be heard this week ahead of Sunday's semi-final against Kerry.

    Meanwhile, Monaghan have made a submission to have Hughes' red card rescinded.

    I think he was going to get a black for the tackle on Cavanagh so he was walking anyway, but unless he was already booked that wasn't a red card offense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    It leaves the question open about whether Hughes should have received a red card for the McCann incident or not.

    In the last couple of seasons we've had the GAA sort of messing around with its rules with incidents like Connolly in 11, Keegan in 14. Kevin Keane is now appealing his red card.

    These were all players guilty of breaching the "strike or attempt to strike rule" which the GAA found various ways to get around.

    One school of thought would be to crack down further and change it to something like "raise hand aggressively against opponent" or similar so ruffling a guy's hair while involved in "an argument" would be covered as it's hard to draw the line otherwise.

    I'd go the other way personally and add something like "due regard will be given to mitigating circumstances" and set a panel to review incidents like these. Connolly would then possibly be let off because he was unfairly targeted, provoked, defended himself and the 'victim' dived.

    Keegan and Keane would get retrospective yellow/black cards for 'petulance' or similar rather than red cards for striking when there was no intent or possibility to do damage.

    Refs get way more scope to apply the rules with common sense in rugby to good effect. Someone panning out an opponent with a punch would get the line, Kevin Keane would never get anything in a million years and rightly so.

    Instead we get constant howling for "consistency" which can only come from rigid application of imperfect rules from the same people who later howl when these same rules are rigidly applied to their players.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Hughes was trying to wind McCann up so he'd lash out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭davegrohl48


    keane2097 wrote: »
    It leaves the question open about whether Hughes should have received a red card for the McCann incident or not.

    In the last couple of seasons we've had the GAA sort of messing around with its rules with incidents like Connolly in 11, Keegan in 14. Kevin Keane is now appealing his red card.

    These were all players guilty of breaching the "strike or attempt to strike rule" which the GAA found various ways to get around.

    One school of thought would be to crack down further and change it to something like "raise hand aggressively against opponent" or similar so ruffling a guy's hair while involved in "an argument" would be covered as it's hard to draw the line otherwise.

    I'd go the other way personally and add something like "due regard will be given to mitigating circumstances" and set a panel to review incidents like these. Connolly would then possibly be let off because he was unfairly targeted, provoked, defended himself and the 'victim' dived.

    Keegan and Keane would get retrospective yellow/black cards for 'petulance' or similar rather than red cards for striking when there was no intent or possibility to do damage.

    Refs get way more scope to apply the rules with common sense in rugby to good effect. Someone panning out an opponent with a punch would get the line, Kevin Keane would never get anything in a million years and rightly so.

    Instead we get constant howling for "consistency" which can only come from rigid application of imperfect rules from the same people who later howl when these same rules are rigidly applied to their players.
    That is probably the way to go alright with common sense on a retrospective basis.
    How to solve all these boring pushing macho man contests that erupt so often in games? Third man in black card at all times?
    Some kind of rule if one player does not disengage then Black? So simple now to just haul someone to the ground to deliberately get them on a yellow. The double yellow is one of the biggest copouts.
    A team now has 6 subs at its disposal to be thinking about putting the three best opposition defenders on yellows.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    That is probably the way to go alright with common sense on a retrospective basis.
    How to solve all these boring pushing macho man contests that erupt so often in games? Third man in black card at all times?
    Some kind of rule if one player does not disengage then Black? So simple now to just haul someone to the ground to deliberately get them on a yellow. The double yellow is one of the biggest copouts.
    A team now has 6 subs at its disposal to be thinking about putting the three best opposition defenders on yellows.

    Black card = Sin Bin
    After every championship game a citing commission reviews any incidents and makes a quick decision on over turning wrong decisions and hitting players with bans for dangerous play or simulation.


    It's really that simple.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    That is probably the way to go alright with common sense on a retrospective basis.
    How to solve all these boring pushing macho man contests that erupt so often in games? Third man in black card at all times?
    Some kind of rule if one player does not disengage then Black? So simple now to just haul someone to the ground to deliberately get them on a yellow. The double yellow is one of the biggest copouts.
    A team now has 6 subs at its disposal to be thinking about putting the three best opposition defenders on yellows.

    Third man in punishment has potential I think.

    Agree with Jayop that a sin bin might emerge from the black card which isn't really doing the job properly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Third man in punishment has potential I think.

    Agree with Jayop that a sin bin might emerge from the black card which isn't really doing the job properly.

    They can ban the third man tackle on Monday. No probs. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Article in the IT yesterday pointinf out how congress were giving out about diving in '53, and in '55 limited the number of subs to 3 because of diving.

    Malachy Clerkin also raises the point there's nothing being done about a Monaghan player blatantly diving in the same game as McCann's dive...


    The most blatant foul I can remember was in a camogie match about a fortnight after Sean Cavanagh hue and cry, where a defender made a diving rugby tackle to pull down a forward, who dropped the sliotar and it was eventually cleared. No free in, let alone a booking...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭davegrohl48


    Jayop wrote: »
    Black card = Sin Bin
    After every championship game a citing commission reviews any incidents and makes a quick decision on over turning wrong decisions and hitting players with bans for dangerous play or simulation.


    It's really that simple.
    The biggest problem with the black card is the lack of punishment suffered during the game. It is only by the 4th Black card you are down 1 player. I have yet to hear of the match where a team actually suffered a 4th Black card.
    They should have kept the substitutes at five and make the following simple changes:
    1. Second black card you cannot replace. (Stops stacking up black cards as a tactic)
    2. In the final ten minutes there is no substitution for black cards. (Stops time wasting as a tactic)
    3. A black card inside the penalty area is not replaceable (Stops most prevention of goals as a tactic)
    This would take away the still existing problem where it is worth it to take a black card, "the taking one for the team" tactic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Article in the IT yesterday pointinf out how congress were giving out about diving in '53, and in '55 limited the number of subs to 3 because of diving.

    Malachy Clerkin also raises the point there's nothing being done about a Monaghan player blatantly diving in the same game as McCann's dive...


    The most blatant foul I can remember was in a camogie match about a fortnight after Sean Cavanagh hue and cry, where a defender made a diving rugby tackle to pull down a forward, who dropped the sliotar and it was eventually cleared. No free in, let alone a booking...

    That was an excellent article but I didn't share it here because I'm told I'm paranoid already.. The foul in the hurling at the weekend was worse than anything I've seen in football recently. Here's an excellent piece of analysis in the Examiner about just how dangerous that was and just what the reaction was to it.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/hurling-the-loser-when-apologists-rule-348840.html
    The biggest problem with the black card is the lack of punishment suffered during the game. It is only by the 4th Black card you are down 1 player. I have yet to hear of the match where a team actually suffered a 4th Black card.
    They should have kept the substitutes at five and make the following simple changes:
    1. Second black card you cannot replace. (Stops stacking up black cards as a tactic)
    2. In the final ten minutes there is no substitution for black cards. (Stops time wasting as a tactic)
    3. A black card inside the penalty area is not replaceable (Stops most prevention of goals as a tactic)
    This would take away the still existing problem where it is worth it to take a black card, "the taking one for the team" tactic.


    Everything you say makes sense. However it's just too complicated. 10 minute sin bin is just so much easier.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭davegrohl48


    Jayop wrote: »
    That was an excellent article but I didn't share it here because I'm told I'm paranoid already.. The foul in the hurling at the weekend was worse than anything I've seen in football recently. Here's an excellent piece of analysis in the Examiner about just how dangerous that was and just what the reaction was to it.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/hurling-the-loser-when-apologists-rule-348840.html



    Everything you say makes sense. However it's just too complicated. 10 minute sin bin is just so much easier.
    Yes that was a bad foul in the hurling, the perpretrator well aware could hurt someone hauling them down like that.
    The sin bin I think was trialled in the league once and scrapped? I might have that wrong.
    One issue with the sin bin, you haul down a player who was going through on goal. It is the second such occasion, preventing two goal chances and now that player is injured after being hauled down. 10 minutes in the sin bin seems inadequate punishment?
    Also the perpretrating team is well capable of slowing the game down while they are down to 14 men. Refs have a tendency to go easy on a team then when they are down to 14. Down to 14 but the ref is now allowing them be over zealous in their tackling.
    How would you handle the time keeping aspect of it at levels other than inter county? For the last 10 min rule I think Refs can check their watch to know when 10 mins are up and signal that with a simple gesture at the next stoppage in play holding up their watch hand and touching the black card to it. Clearly indicates we are into the last 10 minutes of play and hence the black card is not substitutable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Jippo


    The biggest problem with the black card is the lack of punishment suffered during the game. It is only by the 4th Black card you are down 1 player. I have yet to hear of the match where a team actually suffered a 4th Black card.
    They should have kept the substitutes at five and make the following simple changes:
    1. Second black card you cannot replace. (Stops stacking up black cards as a tactic)
    2. In the final ten minutes there is no substitution for black cards. (Stops time wasting as a tactic)
    3. A black card inside the penalty area is not replaceable (Stops most prevention of goals as a tactic)
    This would take away the still existing problem where it is worth it to take a black card, "the taking one for the team" tactic.

    I like two and three. I would consider changing the first to third black card.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭davegrohl48


    Jippo wrote: »
    I like two and three. I would consider changing the first to third black card.
    Yes maybe 3rd black card would be enough to be not substitutable.
    Of course this is not even mentioning the slowing down of frees. As numerous people have posted, Aussie Rules solved that over night. If you slow down a free bring the ball to the 45. Tough cheese, don't slow down frees or else suffer the punishment. If inside the 45 the 13 yards is the distance. Whichever gets player closest to goal. If at 50, brought forward 13 etc.


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