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Fundamental query on heaven

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    #62
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Like I said I read a story and that is Hell was portrayed in it. The Bible says that it a place of eternal torment.

    The speculation is on what causes that torment?

    Fallen Angels feeding off you? Tormented becasue you saw what you could have had in Heaven, but missed due to your own obstinancy and selfishness?

    Tormented because now you are rid of all those Christians and now have an existence worthy of yourself, but now find that because God is not there that nothing can be created?

    because you find that maybe the moral standards that you wished for are now real and not so glorious as you thought?

    You "read a story"? What story?

    Random nonsensical speculation. I didn't ask for that. I asked how you knew what you did, and were so sure about it. I can think up my own utter tosh, thank you.


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    #63
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Not surprised that you can't see trhe difference wicknight, becasue as per yoru usual practice you just read teh bits you wanted to and deliberately missed the point. You have the attitude of a five year old. :rolleyes:

    Come to me when you read the whole piece and decide to question the whole point and not just pick out a particular pharase.

    Ummm, perhaps I need to go back to using my [sarcastic] tags

    I understood exactly what you were saying Brian, I was pointing out how silly it was. :rolleyes:


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    #64
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    Would there be any time to practice free will, considering that eternity in Heaven will be spent congratulating God on how great he is?
    This is a poorly thought out idea of heaven. While I don't know what heaven is like, the Bible says that in this world, we do not only praise God when we are in church doing things like hearing his word, singing his praises or praying communaly. In our everyday lives we praise him by the way we let Jesus take command of our lives if we let him. I think this is commonly known as the (Protestant) work ethic.

    Another aspect of this world which the Bible gives us insight on, which is of particular interest to me, is that all of non-human creation praises God simply by being and doing what is instinctive to them. Our relationship with the rest of creation will be restored to harmony when Jesus comes back to take back the earth, and wipe away all tears.

    For these reasons my vision of heaven is drastically different from yours. I believe that in heaven we will praise God continually in the way we live, not by crude sycophancy.


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    #65
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    Tell the one million people who starved to death in Ethiopia between 1984 and 1985 that God helped by setting up community land transformation projects. I'm sure they will see the bright side to it.
    I think you might have to change your name to Mendacious_Mode. I did not claim that God made everything happy and prosperous.

    Africa suffers because the west is wealthy. Drought caused by climate change is desertifying Botswana today, and the infamous great droughts which had devastated the Sahel region of Africa were caused in part by sulphate pollution in Europe and North America. Our smoke was partly responsible for the famines which killed hundreds of thousands of people in the 1970s and 1980s. (Monbiot)
    let us not firget that the colonial conquest of Africa was driven just as much by a European desire to convert the savages to Christianity. Who would have thought that such a "noble" aim could lead to such tragic consequences for the Africans?
    A flat-out false claim. By the mid-19th century, when the Scramble for Africa was beginning, European governments were no longer pretending to have a Christian agenda. The worst that missionaries as a whole can be accused of is political naivety in their complicity with the colonial powers.
    Of course I assume from a Christian point of view the Africans are winners at the end of the day. OK, many of them might die a slow, painful death as their body slowly eats itself away and they watch helplessly as their children die in agony - but at least their souls have been saved.
    Wrong assumption. The Bible does not mention "saving souls" once. The body is important to Christianity. The fact that Africans are dying of starvation when the continent just to the north has more food than it needs, and all the resources to help Africa grow what it needs, is evidence that the central Christian ethic - love - is virtually absent. Love, in the Christian sense is not abstract thought, but material aid where necessary.

    I am glad that so many Africans find the strength they need to simply live, in Jesus Christ.

    http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/08/29/no-quick-fix/


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    #66
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Húrin wrote: »
    A flat-out false claim. By the mid-19th century, when the Scramble for Africa was beginning, European governments were no longer pretending to have a Christian agenda. The worst that missionaries as a whole can be accused of is political naivety in their complicity with the colonial powers.
    "Political naivety" does not describe religion's input into colonialism. On the contrary, religious assimilation was a central policy during the subjugation of Africa by the European powers of the 19th and early 20th centuries, just as much as this assimilation was necessary for public support at home. I haven't seen anything to suggest that the religions were not fully complicit in both of these - if you do have something which does, I'd certainly like to see it.

    If you're interested in reading up on this, I recommend King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild which gives as good an account as any of the almost unbelievable brutality delivered to the inhabitants of the Congo following the invasion by the Belgians, under their proselytizing catholic king, Leopold II.


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