Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Fundamental query on heaven

2»

Comments

  • #52
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    PDN wrote: »
    No. I have never seen anyone raised from the dead.
    Ok, I only asked so as to demonstrate a more dramatic miracle than "I found 5 euros on the way to work, I needed exactly that to buy breakfast..."
    That's more of a coincidence in my book.
    PDN wrote: »
    You are (probably deliberately) missing the point. Of course fortuitous things happen frequently to most people. However, my point was that three times in one year I was given exactly the amount I was praying for, to the very cent.

    Guilty as charged.:p But honestly now, how many times have you prayed for money and have not received it or have not received exactly to the cent the amount you asked for?
    PDN wrote: »
    I belong to a church where there is a culture of people giving money to others. We see sharing and giving as an important part of our faith. Yes, I think my being a leader of the church is a factor - but that would not explain the exact amounts.

    Agreed 922 is a pretty arbitrary number, but if that is the best miracle you can muster....statistical anomaly, nothing more.


  • #53
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    iUseVi wrote: »
    Guilty as charged.:p But honestly now, how many times have you prayed for money and have not received it or have not received exactly to the cent the amount you asked for?

    I would guess I prayed for particular sums of money that year on about 15 occasions. So that would mean that I received the sum I asked for, to the exact cent, on about 20% of those prayers.

    You can call it a statistical anomaly if you like, but my experience, and that of many other people whom I know, is that such statistical anomalies happen more often when we pray.


  • #54
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Interesting stuff, PDN.

    But (there's always a but)...

    This discussion reminds me of the new age types I know who hold the deep (and in many cases disturbingly selfish) belief that visualization really works... that if you want something badly enough you'll get it. I've heard loads of stories of this type (unexpectedly precise amounts of money etc.), more than I care to recall. The interesting thing is that god plays no part for many of these people. Would god answer prayers that aren't directed at him?

    And what about adherents to other faiths who have similar experiences. Would they just be 'coincidence'? While if it happens to be your god who was asked then it's 'evidence' instead?

    It is of course possible that strongly visualizing something does make it more likely to happen in some way that could be tested, and possibly even explained without requiring recourse to god.


  • #55
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Seamus, I read this in a book, but I may as well use it here as it's a reasonably good explanation.

    Hell or the absence of God, only exists because people have chosen to be absent from Him. Therefore to actually fully respect their free will, hell has to exist. That's the simple logic behind it.
    Hell is not just the conscious abscence of God. The Bible depicts fire. If there is eternal punishment (and I don't think there is) then it is by fire.


  • #56
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    I do find the idea quite unsettling. Today there are people watching their children slowly starve to death because they cannot feed them, I have no doubt that the many of them pray to God for help. However every single day he turns down their pleas as he watches down from far above. However thousands of miles away in Ireland he gives you a helping hand with your car loan. Have you got a better praying technique that these starving families don't know about?
    1. There are numerous instances of community land transformation projects in the 3rd world; why assume that God is deaf to their prayers?

    2. People in this world are dying of starvation because they are poor. Poverty is ultimately a function of sin which is deeply embedded in all human culture. In the 17th century, European visitors to African societies noted that food supplies were equally and often more abundant than at home. Yet European greed eventually ravaged Africa, giving the people of Africa the continent they have today.


  • #57
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Húrin wrote: »
    European greed eventually ravaged Africa, giving the people of Africa the continent they have today.

    Indeed, the Africans got the bibles, the Europeans got the land.

    A fair exchange?


  • #58
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Húrin wrote: »
    1. There are numerous instances of community land transformation projects in the 3rd world; why assume that God is deaf to their prayers?

    Tell the one million people who starved to death in Ethiopia between 1984 and 1985 that God helped by setting up community land transformation projects. I'm sure they will see the bright side to it.
    People in this world are dying of starvation because they are poor. Poverty is ultimately a function of sin which is deeply embedded in all human culture. In the 17th century, European visitors to African societies noted that food supplies were equally and often more abundant than at home. Yet European greed eventually ravaged Africa, giving the people of Africa the continent they have today.

    let us not firget that the colonial conquest of Africa was driven just as much by a European desire to convert the savages to Christianity. Who would have thought that such a "noble" aim could lead to such tragic consequences for the Africans?

    Of course I assume from a Christian point of view the Africans are winners at the end of the day. OK, many of them might die a slow, painful death as their body slowly eats itself away and they watch helplessly as their children die in agony - but at least their souls have been saved.


  • #59
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Wicknight wrote: »
    So in heaven you are made perfectly happy.

    And in hell you get your "hearts desire"

    Ummm ... not really seeing the difference there, except maybe in hell you pick what makes you happy where as in heaven you are just made be happy.

    Not surprised that you can't see trhe difference wicknight, becasue as per yoru usual practice you just read teh bits you wanted to and deliberately missed the point. You have the attitude of a five year old. :rolleyes:

    Come to me when you read the whole piece and decide to question the whole point and not just pick out a particular pharase.


  • #60
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    iUseVi wrote: »
    How do you claim to know so much about these? Certainly not so much detail in the bible, so you can't have got it from there.

    Like I said I read a story and that is Hell was portrayed in it. The Bible says that it a place of eternal torment.

    The speculation is on what causes that torment?

    Fallen Angels feeding off you? Tormented becasue you saw what you could have had in Heaven, but missed due to your own obstinancy and selfishness?

    Tormented because now you are rid of all those Christians and now have an existence worthy of yourself, but now find that because God is not there that nothing can be created?

    because you find that maybe the moral standards that you wished for are now real and not so glorious as you thought?


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    let us not firget that the colonial conquest of Africa was driven just as much by a European desire to convert the savages to Christianity. Who would have thought that such a "noble" aim could lead to such tragic consequences for the Africans? .

    No it was driven by greed and the riches that were possibly contained on thecontinent. The missionaries came to do their bit by bringing the gospel to the people and the traders to take as much money as they could out of the continent.
    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    Of course I assume from a Christian point of view the Africans are winners at the end of the day. OK, many of them might die a slow, painful death as their body slowly eats itself away and they watch helplessly as their children die in agony - but at least their souls have been saved.

    The Africans are winners at the end of the day because they have come to know Christ as Lord and Saviour.

    They are losers because of the way the Europeans carved up their land and stole the natural resources.

    They also lose because of their own people starting revolutions and imposing their selfish will upon the people.

    Now before wicknight comes up with his one example of where this hasn't happened, remember Africa is a large continent of many countries and we can only talk generalities.


  • #62
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Like I said I read a story and that is Hell was portrayed in it. The Bible says that it a place of eternal torment.

    The speculation is on what causes that torment?

    Fallen Angels feeding off you? Tormented becasue you saw what you could have had in Heaven, but missed due to your own obstinancy and selfishness?

    Tormented because now you are rid of all those Christians and now have an existence worthy of yourself, but now find that because God is not there that nothing can be created?

    because you find that maybe the moral standards that you wished for are now real and not so glorious as you thought?

    You "read a story"? What story?

    Random nonsensical speculation. I didn't ask for that. I asked how you knew what you did, and were so sure about it. I can think up my own utter tosh, thank you.


  • #63
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Not surprised that you can't see trhe difference wicknight, becasue as per yoru usual practice you just read teh bits you wanted to and deliberately missed the point. You have the attitude of a five year old. :rolleyes:

    Come to me when you read the whole piece and decide to question the whole point and not just pick out a particular pharase.

    Ummm, perhaps I need to go back to using my [sarcastic] tags

    I understood exactly what you were saying Brian, I was pointing out how silly it was. :rolleyes:


  • #64
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    Would there be any time to practice free will, considering that eternity in Heaven will be spent congratulating God on how great he is?
    This is a poorly thought out idea of heaven. While I don't know what heaven is like, the Bible says that in this world, we do not only praise God when we are in church doing things like hearing his word, singing his praises or praying communaly. In our everyday lives we praise him by the way we let Jesus take command of our lives if we let him. I think this is commonly known as the (Protestant) work ethic.

    Another aspect of this world which the Bible gives us insight on, which is of particular interest to me, is that all of non-human creation praises God simply by being and doing what is instinctive to them. Our relationship with the rest of creation will be restored to harmony when Jesus comes back to take back the earth, and wipe away all tears.

    For these reasons my vision of heaven is drastically different from yours. I believe that in heaven we will praise God continually in the way we live, not by crude sycophancy.


  • #65
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    Tell the one million people who starved to death in Ethiopia between 1984 and 1985 that God helped by setting up community land transformation projects. I'm sure they will see the bright side to it.
    I think you might have to change your name to Mendacious_Mode. I did not claim that God made everything happy and prosperous.

    Africa suffers because the west is wealthy. Drought caused by climate change is desertifying Botswana today, and the infamous great droughts which had devastated the Sahel region of Africa were caused in part by sulphate pollution in Europe and North America. Our smoke was partly responsible for the famines which killed hundreds of thousands of people in the 1970s and 1980s. (Monbiot)
    let us not firget that the colonial conquest of Africa was driven just as much by a European desire to convert the savages to Christianity. Who would have thought that such a "noble" aim could lead to such tragic consequences for the Africans?
    A flat-out false claim. By the mid-19th century, when the Scramble for Africa was beginning, European governments were no longer pretending to have a Christian agenda. The worst that missionaries as a whole can be accused of is political naivety in their complicity with the colonial powers.
    Of course I assume from a Christian point of view the Africans are winners at the end of the day. OK, many of them might die a slow, painful death as their body slowly eats itself away and they watch helplessly as their children die in agony - but at least their souls have been saved.
    Wrong assumption. The Bible does not mention "saving souls" once. The body is important to Christianity. The fact that Africans are dying of starvation when the continent just to the north has more food than it needs, and all the resources to help Africa grow what it needs, is evidence that the central Christian ethic - love - is virtually absent. Love, in the Christian sense is not abstract thought, but material aid where necessary.

    I am glad that so many Africans find the strength they need to simply live, in Jesus Christ.

    http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/08/29/no-quick-fix/


  • #66
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Húrin wrote: »
    A flat-out false claim. By the mid-19th century, when the Scramble for Africa was beginning, European governments were no longer pretending to have a Christian agenda. The worst that missionaries as a whole can be accused of is political naivety in their complicity with the colonial powers.
    "Political naivety" does not describe religion's input into colonialism. On the contrary, religious assimilation was a central policy during the subjugation of Africa by the European powers of the 19th and early 20th centuries, just as much as this assimilation was necessary for public support at home. I haven't seen anything to suggest that the religions were not fully complicit in both of these - if you do have something which does, I'd certainly like to see it.

    If you're interested in reading up on this, I recommend King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild which gives as good an account as any of the almost unbelievable brutality delivered to the inhabitants of the Congo following the invasion by the Belgians, under their proselytizing catholic king, Leopold II.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement