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Fundamental query on heaven

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    #32
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    Mena wrote: »
    Ok I'm going to go ahead and say it. To me, this appears to be utterly revolting. You're saying that we essentially become automotons here, that is, putting aside reality and reason and assuming this heaven and hell exist.

    You can't say free-will remains and in the same sentence say that you will see everything "he" does as good. That just makes no sense.

    To be fair, if these two places were actually to exist I'd pick hell. At least that way I'm not mind-controlled into agreeing with everything some supposed deity does, including the possibility of burning my friends and family alive with me watching and agreeing with this...

    That's what I'm getting from this too. Basically you won't have your own mind any more, you won't be thinking your thoughts?

    "These aren't the droids you're looking for." ;):p


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    #33
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Heaven: A life in the company of God. The ability to pursue my interests and to meet and greet with some pretty great people. A place to use my gifts in the service of others and to develop my humanity to the fullest.

    Hell: No God. Everyone interested in their own ways and methods and morals. A place where you get to create your own reality but don't have the power to do so. A place where you are run and controlled by a posse of fallen angels who force you to do their bidding and will with no concern for your interests and well being. I read one story where someone ended up in Hell and it was shown as a solitary existence, where the person was completely absent from God and was such a selfish being that he got his hearts desire, his own company for eternity.

    I know which I would take.


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    #34
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Hell: No God. Everyone interested in their own ways and methods and morals. A place where you get to create your own reality but don't have the power to do so. A place where you are run and controlled by a posse of fallen angels who force you to do their bidding and will with no concern for your interests and well being. I read one story where someone ended up in Hell and it was shown as a solitary existence, where the person was completely absent from God and was such a selfish being that he got his hearts desire, his own company for eternity.
    Wait, so you'll be alone in Hell?

    I mean, I'd be perfectly content to live a life somewhere where everyone was interested in thier own ways and methods and morals. I mean that means It wouldn't be too different to earth, would it?

    But is this the case or are you not able to meet people?

    And another question, do you still have free will in Heaven and Hell?


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    #35
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    And another question, do you still have free will in Heaven and Hell?

    Would there be any time to practice free will, considering that eternity in Heaven will be spent congratulating God on how great he is?


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    #36
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Heaven: A life in the company of God. The ability to pursue my interests and to meet and greet with some pretty great people. A place to use my gifts in the service of others and to develop my humanity to the fullest.

    Hell: No God. Everyone interested in their own ways and methods and morals. A place where you get to create your own reality but don't have the power to do so. A place where you are run and controlled by a posse of fallen angels who force you to do their bidding and will with no concern for your interests and well being. I read one story where someone ended up in Hell and it was shown as a solitary existence, where the person was completely absent from God and was such a selfish being that he got his hearts desire, his own company for eternity.

    I know which I would take.

    How do you claim to know so much about these? Certainly not so much detail in the bible, so you can't have got it from there.


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    #37
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,275 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    PDN wrote: »
    I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.
    better than being stuck for all eternity with a load of sycophants

    (btw, its not just hitler and stalin etc who'll be in hell, There'll also be people like jimmy hendrix, jim morrison and pretty much every interesting person I can think of.)


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    #38
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,275 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    TravelJunkie wrote: »
    God doesn't answer YES to everything, but he does answer.
    what a lovely little device. God will answer your prayers by converting your mates to christianity, but he won't answer the prayers of innocent children being raped by their fathers. Yes, God heard their prayers, he just said no.
    (and when they grow up to be drug addicts or prostitutes it's their fault)


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    #39
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Heaven: A life in the company of God. The ability to pursue my interests and to meet and greet with some pretty great people. A place to use my gifts in the service of others and to develop my humanity to the fullest.

    Hell: No God. Everyone interested in their own ways and methods and morals. A place where you get to create your own reality but don't have the power to do so. A place where you are run and controlled by a posse of fallen angels who force you to do their bidding and will with no concern for your interests and well being. I read one story where someone ended up in Hell and it was shown as a solitary existence, where the person was completely absent from God and was such a selfish being that he got his hearts desire, his own company for eternity.

    I know which I would take.

    So in heaven you are made perfectly happy.

    And in hell you get your "hearts desire"

    Ummm ... not really seeing the difference there, except maybe in hell you pick what makes you happy where as in heaven you are just made be happy.


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    #40
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    TravelJunkie wrote: »
    I don't have all the answers you know.

    I don't mean to be insensitive but you can't really cure an amputated leg. What the amputee is looking for is a miracle. I do believe in miracles but what greater miracle is there than to be able to be in Gods prescence and the receiver of his Grace? All else is secondary really. Our bodies, our circumstances, etc etc.

    So God only answers yes to prayers for things that could have happened by chance anyway.

    And he only answers yes to them with the same frequency as would happen by chance.

    I think you can draw your own conclusions about the usefulness of prayer.

    On balance I think I'll keep buying health insurance.


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    #41
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    rockbeer wrote: »
    So God only answers yes to prayers for things that could have happened by chance anyway.

    And he only answers yes to them with the same frequency as would happen by chance.

    I think you can draw your own conclusions about the usefulness of prayer.

    On balance I think I'll keep buying health insurance.
    Heathen!


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    #42
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    rockbeer wrote: »
    So God only answers yes to prayers for things that could have happened by chance anyway.
    I think many 'miracles' are more of an amazing coming together of circumstances at exactly the required time rather than any suspension of the laws of nature. For example, there is an incident in the Gospels where the disciples needed money to pay the Temple Tax so Jesus sent Peter down to the Sea of Galilee and he pulled a fish out of the water and found the correct coinage in the fish's mouth. That could have happened by chance. Someone dropped a coin in the water, a fish swallowed it, Peter happened to catch that fish etc. What makes it a 'miracle,' or significant in terms of answered prayer, is that it happened when needed and in accordance with the command of Jesus.
    And he only answers yes to them with the same frequency as would happen by chance.
    No. My experience, and that of many others, is that prayer dramatically increases those one in a million 'coincidences'. The more I pray, the more such coincidences happen.

    For example, three times in one year people came to me and, entirely unsolicited, gave the exact sum of money required to pay for something that I was praying for. In each case they had no idea of the need and no idea of the sum required. (The 3 gifts were: 50,000 euro to renovate a church building; 922 euro to cover a direct debit on a car loan that was due the next day, and 20,000 euro I needed to put a deposit on a piece of land to build my home). In each case the sums given were, to the very cent, the figure that I had been praying for. Once would have been remarkable. Twice would have been an amazing coincidence. Three times leads me to believe that either prayer works or else I am the most freakishly lucky person on the planet.

    Twelve days ago I visited a hospital and prayed for a young man who had been in a car accident. He was unconscious, kept alive by machines, and scans could detect no brain activity. Family were already discussing funeral arrangements for when the machines were switched off. Together with his mother I prayed and anointed him with oil. One week later he was talking to his parents. A few days later he is eating, chatting to visitors, and was moved out of the ICU. I have seen these things too often for them simply to be coincidences.

    Yes, there are lots of things we pray for that don't happen. But the incidences of answered prayer are plainly greater than would be expected by chance alone.
    I think you can draw your own conclusions about the usefulness of prayer.
    I can and I have.
    On balance I think I'll keep buying health insurance.
    On balance I think I'll keep praying and buying health insurance.


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    #43
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    PDN wrote: »
    I think many 'miracles' are more of an amazing coming together of circumstances at exactly the required time rather than any suspension of the laws of nature. For example, there is an incident in the Gospels where the disciples needed money to pay the Temple Tax so Jesus sent Peter down to the Sea of Galilee and he pulled a fish out of the water and found the correct coinage in the fish's mouth. That could have happened by chance. Someone dropped a coin in the water, a fish swallowed it, Peter happened to catch that fish etc. What makes it a 'miracle,' or significant in terms of answered prayer, is that it happened when needed and in accordance with the command of Jesus.

    The word miracle to most people does mean a suspension of the laws of nature; kind of like the story of the loaves and the fishes, raising of the dead, that kind of thing.

    Have you seen anyone raised from the dead? I have met several Christians who claim such things. I of course have never met the person(s) supposedly raised, or heard an accurate time line of events.
    I can only assume that is a case of Lazarus Phenomenon, since direct questions seem to annoy these people.
    PDN wrote: »
    No. My experience, and that of many others, is that prayer dramatically increases those one in a million 'coincidences'. The more I pray, the more such coincidences happen.

    For example, three times in one year people came to me and, entirely unsolicited, gave the exact sum of money required to pay for something that I was praying for. In each case they had no idea of the need and no idea of the sum required. (The 3 gifts were: 50,000 euro to renovate a church building; 922 euro to cover a direct debit on a car loan that was due the next day, and 20,000 euro I needed to put a deposit on a piece of land to build my home). In each case the sums given were, to the very cent, the figure that I had been praying for. Once would have been remarkable. Twice would have been an amazing coincidence. Three times leads me to believe that either prayer works or else I am the most freakishly lucky person on the planet.

    Fortuitous things happen to me and others all the time, and yet I don't pray. Interesting. Would the fact that you happen to be the leader of a Church make it more likely that you would receive such gifts of money? I think so.
    PDN wrote: »
    Twelve days ago I visited a hospital and prayed for a young man who had been in a car accident. He was unconscious, kept alive by machines, and scans could detect no brain activity. Family were already discussing funeral arrangements for when the machines were switched off. Together with his mother I prayed and anointed him with oil. One week later he was talking to his parents. A few days later he is eating, chatting to visitors, and was moved out of the ICU. I have seen these things too often for them simply to be coincidences.

    Yes, there are lots of things we pray for that don't happen. But the incidences of answered prayer are plainly greater than would be expected by chance alone.

    "Plainly greater." If this were really the case, why have not the numerous studies shown any statistical anomaly?


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    #44
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,275 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    PDN wrote: »
    No. My experience, and that of many others, is that prayer dramatically increases those one in a million 'coincidences'. The more I pray, the more such coincidences happen.
    I'm currently finishing off a masters degree and I have very little money and no income at the moment. The other day I got a cheque in the post that I wasn't expecting. Was this god helping me out?
    No, it was a cheque that was due to come anyway but I hadn't factored it into my finances.

    Coincidences happen all the time to everyone, sometimes they are happy coincidences, sometimes they are sad. Devoted Christians tend to accept the positive things as gifts from god, but rarely blame god for the bad things that happen.

    Recently my grandmother has been having a really hard time, a lot of her family are starting to die within weeks of each other. Some of them are young, some of them are elderly. She prays for all her family, some of them have had truly tragic lives, her prayers aren't doing any good.


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    #45
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I'm currently finishing off a masters degree and I have very little money and no income at the moment. The other day I got a cheque in the post that I wasn't expecting. Was this god helping me out?
    No, it was a cheque that was due to come anyway but I hadn't factored it into my finances.

    Oooh, my turn. Last week I was looking forward to going to see Bruce Springsteen at the weekend, one of the nights before the concert I had a wierd dream where he walked past me wearing a strangely designed black and white cowboy hat, not something at all associated with him (as far as I am aware). As it happens on the Sunday night there he was with a zebra-skin type black and white cowboy hat (Pic).

    That must have been God answering my bizaare dream of wanting to see Bruce in a mad cowboy hat. God truely does work in mysterious ways.


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    #46
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    No. My experience, and that of many others, is that prayer dramatically increases those one in a million 'coincidences'. The more I pray, the more such coincidences happen.

    Non-bias study (yes your personal experiences are bias) suggest that doesn't hold


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    #47
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    But the incidences of answered prayer are plainly greater than would be expected by chance alone.
    Did you ask the people who sent you money to tell you why they sent it on the particular day they did? And if so, were they suddenly "inspired" to send you the money, or was it because of some more reasonable explanation?

    Because if they were inspired, at god's behest, to send money to you in order so that god could answer your prayers, then you are implying that god has suspended free-will upon the part of your (very helpful) donors.

    So, here we have a another contradiction within christian belief -- either god doesn't answer prayers, or god suspends free-will in order to answer prayers. You can't have it both ways.

    Or, you could simply be falling victim to the Confirmation Bias, a well-known, but subtle, cognitive bias.
    PDN wrote: »
    On balance I think I'll keep praying and buying health insurance.
    If I were you, I'd do my best to stay healthy, visit the doc regularly, keep up the health insurance and pray in any spare time left over :)


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    #48
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    iUseVi wrote: »
    Have you seen anyone raised from the dead?
    No. I have never seen anyone raised from the dead.
    Fortuitous things happen to me and others all the time, and yet I don't pray. Interesting. Would the fact that you happen to be the leader of a Church make it more likely that you would receive such gifts of money? I think so.
    You are (probably deliberately) missing the point. Of course fortuitous things happen frequently to most people. However, my point was that three times in one year I was given exactly the amount I was praying for, to the very cent.

    I belong to a church where there is a culture of people giving money to others. We see sharing and giving as an important part of our faith. Yes, I think my being a leader of the church is a factor - but that would not explain the exact amounts.
    "Plainly greater." If this were really the case, why have not the numerous studies shown any statistical anomaly?
    I would be interested to hear of any studies that are capable of demonstrating anything on this. Robin has, in some other threads, referred to some that are laughably flawed in their methodology.


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    #49
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote: »
    Did you ask the people who sent you money to tell you why they sent it on the particular day they did? And if so, were they suddenly "inspired" to send you the money, or was it because of some more reasonable explanation?

    Because if they were inspired, at god's behest, to send money to you in order so that god could answer your prayers, then you are implying that god has suspended free-will upon the part of your (very helpful) donors.

    The 922 euro was given as a direct result of someone believing that God had spoken to him about raising money to give me - but that revelation was given a year earlier. Circumstances prevented him from acting upon it until a year later - or less than 24 hours before I needed the 922 eyro.

    I find your leap of logic very interesting. God tells someone to do something and, even though the person has the free will whether or not to act upon that, you somehow see a suspension of free will. How on earth do you manage such an intellectual conjouring trick?


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    #50
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    PDN wrote: »
    The 922 euro was given as a direct result of someone believing that God had spoken to him about raising money to give me - but that revelation was given a year earlier. Circumstances prevented him from acting upon it until a year later - or less than 24 hours before I needed the 922 eyro.

    I do find the idea quite unsettling. Today there are people watching their children slowly starve to death because they cannot feed them, I have no doubt that the many of them pray to God for help. However every single day he turns down their pleas as he watches down from far above. However thousands of miles away in Ireland he gives you a helping hand with your car loan. Have you got a better praying technique that these starving families don't know about?

    If what you believe is true and God really did help you out in this, dare I say it, minor regard then I would have to conclude than rather than being evidence of a good God who helped out of of his faithfull it was instead evidence of a God who plays games with peoples lives and has twisted priorities.


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    #51
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    I do find the idea quite unsettling. Today there are people watching their children slowly starve to death because they cannot feed them, I have no doubt that the many of them pray to God for help. However every single day he turns down their pleas as he watches down from far above. However thousands of miles away in Ireland he gives you a helping hand with your car loan. Have you got a better praying technique that these starving families don't know about?

    If what you believe is true and God really did help you out in this, dare I say it, minor regard then I would have to conclude than rather than being evidence of a good God who helped out of of his faithfull it was instead evidence of a God who plays games with peoples lives and has twisted priorities.

    Ah, now you are talking about something entirely different.

    Why do some prayers get answered in the affirmative while others don't? I don't think anyone really knows the answer to that question. If I had a choice I would much rather that God had answered my prayers for my daughter not to die (she did die) rather than a prayer for the money I needed to pay my car tax. So it's hardly a matter of technique.

    However, if I only had one experience where prayer had made a difference, rather than hundreds, that would still IMHO constitute a good reason to pray.


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    #52
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    PDN wrote: »
    No. I have never seen anyone raised from the dead.
    Ok, I only asked so as to demonstrate a more dramatic miracle than "I found 5 euros on the way to work, I needed exactly that to buy breakfast..."
    That's more of a coincidence in my book.
    PDN wrote: »
    You are (probably deliberately) missing the point. Of course fortuitous things happen frequently to most people. However, my point was that three times in one year I was given exactly the amount I was praying for, to the very cent.

    Guilty as charged.:p But honestly now, how many times have you prayed for money and have not received it or have not received exactly to the cent the amount you asked for?
    PDN wrote: »
    I belong to a church where there is a culture of people giving money to others. We see sharing and giving as an important part of our faith. Yes, I think my being a leader of the church is a factor - but that would not explain the exact amounts.

    Agreed 922 is a pretty arbitrary number, but if that is the best miracle you can muster....statistical anomaly, nothing more.


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    #53
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    iUseVi wrote: »
    Guilty as charged.:p But honestly now, how many times have you prayed for money and have not received it or have not received exactly to the cent the amount you asked for?

    I would guess I prayed for particular sums of money that year on about 15 occasions. So that would mean that I received the sum I asked for, to the exact cent, on about 20% of those prayers.

    You can call it a statistical anomaly if you like, but my experience, and that of many other people whom I know, is that such statistical anomalies happen more often when we pray.


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    #54
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Interesting stuff, PDN.

    But (there's always a but)...

    This discussion reminds me of the new age types I know who hold the deep (and in many cases disturbingly selfish) belief that visualization really works... that if you want something badly enough you'll get it. I've heard loads of stories of this type (unexpectedly precise amounts of money etc.), more than I care to recall. The interesting thing is that god plays no part for many of these people. Would god answer prayers that aren't directed at him?

    And what about adherents to other faiths who have similar experiences. Would they just be 'coincidence'? While if it happens to be your god who was asked then it's 'evidence' instead?

    It is of course possible that strongly visualizing something does make it more likely to happen in some way that could be tested, and possibly even explained without requiring recourse to god.


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    #55
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Seamus, I read this in a book, but I may as well use it here as it's a reasonably good explanation.

    Hell or the absence of God, only exists because people have chosen to be absent from Him. Therefore to actually fully respect their free will, hell has to exist. That's the simple logic behind it.
    Hell is not just the conscious abscence of God. The Bible depicts fire. If there is eternal punishment (and I don't think there is) then it is by fire.


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    #56
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    I do find the idea quite unsettling. Today there are people watching their children slowly starve to death because they cannot feed them, I have no doubt that the many of them pray to God for help. However every single day he turns down their pleas as he watches down from far above. However thousands of miles away in Ireland he gives you a helping hand with your car loan. Have you got a better praying technique that these starving families don't know about?
    1. There are numerous instances of community land transformation projects in the 3rd world; why assume that God is deaf to their prayers?

    2. People in this world are dying of starvation because they are poor. Poverty is ultimately a function of sin which is deeply embedded in all human culture. In the 17th century, European visitors to African societies noted that food supplies were equally and often more abundant than at home. Yet European greed eventually ravaged Africa, giving the people of Africa the continent they have today.


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    #57
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Húrin wrote: »
    European greed eventually ravaged Africa, giving the people of Africa the continent they have today.

    Indeed, the Africans got the bibles, the Europeans got the land.

    A fair exchange?


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    #58
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Húrin wrote: »
    1. There are numerous instances of community land transformation projects in the 3rd world; why assume that God is deaf to their prayers?

    Tell the one million people who starved to death in Ethiopia between 1984 and 1985 that God helped by setting up community land transformation projects. I'm sure they will see the bright side to it.
    People in this world are dying of starvation because they are poor. Poverty is ultimately a function of sin which is deeply embedded in all human culture. In the 17th century, European visitors to African societies noted that food supplies were equally and often more abundant than at home. Yet European greed eventually ravaged Africa, giving the people of Africa the continent they have today.

    let us not firget that the colonial conquest of Africa was driven just as much by a European desire to convert the savages to Christianity. Who would have thought that such a "noble" aim could lead to such tragic consequences for the Africans?

    Of course I assume from a Christian point of view the Africans are winners at the end of the day. OK, many of them might die a slow, painful death as their body slowly eats itself away and they watch helplessly as their children die in agony - but at least their souls have been saved.


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    #59
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Wicknight wrote: »
    So in heaven you are made perfectly happy.

    And in hell you get your "hearts desire"

    Ummm ... not really seeing the difference there, except maybe in hell you pick what makes you happy where as in heaven you are just made be happy.

    Not surprised that you can't see trhe difference wicknight, becasue as per yoru usual practice you just read teh bits you wanted to and deliberately missed the point. You have the attitude of a five year old. :rolleyes:

    Come to me when you read the whole piece and decide to question the whole point and not just pick out a particular pharase.


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    #60
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    iUseVi wrote: »
    How do you claim to know so much about these? Certainly not so much detail in the bible, so you can't have got it from there.

    Like I said I read a story and that is Hell was portrayed in it. The Bible says that it a place of eternal torment.

    The speculation is on what causes that torment?

    Fallen Angels feeding off you? Tormented becasue you saw what you could have had in Heaven, but missed due to your own obstinancy and selfishness?

    Tormented because now you are rid of all those Christians and now have an existence worthy of yourself, but now find that because God is not there that nothing can be created?

    because you find that maybe the moral standards that you wished for are now real and not so glorious as you thought?


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    #61
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    let us not firget that the colonial conquest of Africa was driven just as much by a European desire to convert the savages to Christianity. Who would have thought that such a "noble" aim could lead to such tragic consequences for the Africans? .

    No it was driven by greed and the riches that were possibly contained on thecontinent. The missionaries came to do their bit by bringing the gospel to the people and the traders to take as much money as they could out of the continent.
    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    Of course I assume from a Christian point of view the Africans are winners at the end of the day. OK, many of them might die a slow, painful death as their body slowly eats itself away and they watch helplessly as their children die in agony - but at least their souls have been saved.

    The Africans are winners at the end of the day because they have come to know Christ as Lord and Saviour.

    They are losers because of the way the Europeans carved up their land and stole the natural resources.

    They also lose because of their own people starting revolutions and imposing their selfish will upon the people.

    Now before wicknight comes up with his one example of where this hasn't happened, remember Africa is a large continent of many countries and we can only talk generalities.


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