Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

Hotblack Desiato · 10-12-2015 1:14am

€1 for 330ml of 4% mass market swill is expensive.

dslamjack · 10-12-2015 2:04am

Its a fait accompli already,the inland decency have struck,just like the smoking ban ,there is no defense.
As I said earlier ,the do gooders that brought about the smoking ban were all ways going to start on the drink,and when they have finished and made drinking as anti social as smoking,they will start on the obese good time.
You cannot win any argument with them on health grounds,just like the smoking ban,and like it or not over the next few years the drinker will be demonized and vilified just like the smoker.
O you will be given all the''help'' and ''advice'' you need,then will come the ''help'' from your employer,you won't be able to look side way's for all the ''help'',because we're such a caring society.
<Snip>
Its pretty much down hill from here,in no time the country will be as boring as a wet monday night in Oslo and as exciting as watching endless repeats of Oireachtas Tv.
Ye all better have very unhealthy Christmas,the way things are going,you'd be better off getting banged up next Christmas,at least ye'll be able to get a drink in the Joy,even if the rest of the country can't.

syklops · 10-12-2015 7:48am

ThisRegard wrote: »

I bought a box of Heineken which worked out at €1 a bottle a few weeks ago. Look at what Lidl and Aldi sell. There is lots of cheap alcohol out there. You're deluded if you think there's none.

If you think a 330ml bottle of Heineken for 1 euro is cheap, then, no offence you are part of the problem. Aldi have wine for 5 euros. Its very drinkable. Its no Nom Plateau Chatteau du Plom but its acceptable. In Germany, a litre of similar stuff is about 2 euro. In the Czech Republic its 1 euro. The cheapest in Ireland currently is 5, and Leo wants to make it 8 or 9.

I used to buy 10 bottles of Czech beer for less than 4 euros. Wages are low in the Czech republic but they arent a quarter. Dole is 300 a month and they dont have other allowances like rent support. Its E300, now go survive.

I wrote extenively on the AH thread. The black-market for booze will sky rocket. And, there will be deaths as a result. Guaranteed. Minister for health is going to kill more people, than if he had done feck all.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 8:27am

castle2012 wrote: »

Its simple all. There's an election coming up . Don't vote finegael and labour and that will sort that out . Different government different ideas

FF would pass this in a heartbeat, party of purpose publicans

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 9:44am

dslamjack wrote: »

As I said earlier ,the do gooders that brought about the smoking ban were all ways going to start on the drink,.

It's not even the same government Ffs. And the smoking ban has been one of the best measures any government has brought in. You're not banned from smoking, just banned from doing so where it affects others.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-12-2015 9:48am

This post has been deleted.

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 9:50am

syklops wrote: »

If you think a 330ml bottle of Heineken for 1 euro is cheap, then, no offence you are part of the problem. Aldi have wine for 5 euros. Its very drinkable. Its no Nom Plateau Chatteau du Plom but its acceptable. In Germany, a litre of similar stuff is about 2 euro. In the Czech Republic its 1 euro. The cheapest in Ireland currently is 5, and Leo wants to make it 8 or 9.

I used to buy 10 bottles of Czech beer for less than 4 euros. Wages are low in the Czech republic but they arent a quarter. Dole is 300 a month and they dont have other allowances like rent support. Its E300, now go survive.

I wrote extenively on the AH thread. The black-market for booze will sky rocket. And, there will be deaths as a result. Guaranteed. Minister for health is going to kill more people, than if he had done feck all.

What problem exactly am I part of? If you want to start making silly comparisons with eastern European country's factor in salaries and welfare rates from there and don't just brush them off like you did. It's all relative. There's no two ways about it, €1 a bottle/can is cheap.

The rest of your post about people dying all over the place is the usual hysteric nonsense whenever a measure we don't like is introduced.

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 9:52am

Patww79 wrote: »

Don't solve a problem, tax a problem.

Same thing with everything.

It's not a tax.

Sorry for the multiple posts, on mobile.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-12-2015 9:55am

This post has been deleted.

oblivious · 10-12-2015 10:04am

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well I suppose that you could argue that tax revenue could be put to some good rather than going to the retailer

BeerNut · 10-12-2015 10:13am

oblivious wrote: »

Well I suppose that you could argue that tax revenue could be put to some good rather than going to the retailer

Indeed. It's rarely mentioned that the main poster-boy for Minimum Unit Pricing, British Columbia, has all state-owned liquor stores, so the extra cash from MUP goes back to providing public services rather than lining anyone's pocket.

Brendan Bendar · 10-12-2015 10:20am

Hare brained policy, instead of tackling the people who abuse the product,to whom price is incidental, they target the moderate tippler.

Publicans think they will get a rise out of this- think again.

Tazz T · 10-12-2015 10:34am

ThisRegard wrote: »

I bought a box of Heineken which worked out at €1 a bottle a few weeks ago. Look at what Lidl and Aldi sell. There is lots of cheap alcohol out there. You're deluded if you think there's none.

We officially have the most expensive alcohol in the EU and fourth expensive in the entire world.

When the government say 'cheap alcohol', they aren't referring to the general price of alcohol, they are referring to alcohol not sold in pubs which is 'cheaper'.

Vested interests.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 11:12am

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Hare brained policy, instead of tackling the people who abuse the product,to whom price is incidental, they target the moderate tippler.

And don't target the bottle of wine each a night middle class - which is very harmful drinking - who, incidentally, usually vote FG.

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 11:17am

Tazz T wrote: »

We officially have the most expensive alcohol in the EU and fourth expensive in the entire world.

When the government say 'cheap alcohol', they aren't referring to the general price of alcohol, they are referring to alcohol not sold in pubs which is 'cheaper'.

Vested interests.

But when you take into account promotions etc, alcohol can be gotten very cheaply in Ireland from the off trade. That's the whole point. I'm not talking about RRPs, but the reality of what people can spend in an off licence or supermarket.

I don't think it has ever been cheaper.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 11:27am

ThisRegard wrote: »

But when you take into account promotions etc, alcohol can be gotten very cheaply in Ireland from the off trade. That's the whole point. I'm not talking about RRPs, but the reality of what people can spend in an off licence or supermarket.

I don't think it has ever been cheaper.

Its still amongst the dearest in the world.

"never been cheaper" does not equal "cheap".

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 11:32am

I don't know, if people think that a bottle of can for €1 or less is not cheap I've no idea what they expect. For it to be cheaper than the water itself used to make it?

L1011 · 10-12-2015 11:33am

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know, if people think that a bottle of can for €1 or less is not cheap I've no idea what they expect. For it to be cheaper than the water itself used to make it?

Have you ever traveled abroad and bought alcohol in off-sales there?

Some proportionality in pricing is all people expect. Alcohol prices here are high - very high.

Some of the countries we consider "dearer" than here due to dear on-sales pricing have cheaper off-sales!

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 11:40am

I have. I even lived in a country full of fordeners. But I also saw how much they earned relative to what we earn in Ireland, and they had practically no welfare state.

As I said, everything is relative. Compare their price of beer with their minimum wage and welfare rates for a realistic comparison.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 11:44am

ThisRegard wrote: »

As I said, everything is relative. Compare their price of beer with their minimum wage and welfare rates for a realistic comparison.

We're still close to the dearest in the EU out of the countries with comparable figures.

UK has similar enough income levels and far cheaper off-sales
Netherlands has similar enough income levels and far cheaper off-sales
Denmark has similar enough income levels and far cheaper off-sales
France has similar enough income levels and far cheaper off-sales
Repeat until you run out of countries

Sweden and Finland are about the only dearer than us (and Denmark in pubs). Alcohol is expensive in Ireland - that is not really something arguable.

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 11:50am

I don't think it's expensive. How can you say €1 for a bottle is expensive? As I said numerous times, all is relative. It may be expensive compared to a 20c bottle from Europe somewhere, but that does not make it expensive in itself.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 11:58am

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't think it's expensive. How can you say €1 for a bottle is expensive? As I said numerous times, all is relative. It may be expensive compared to a 20c bottle from Europe somewhere, but that does not make it expensive in itself.

Its expensive because nearly all comparable markets are cheaper, as has been explained to you repeatedly.

This is what relative actually means. We're not comparing to Romania here, but to the other high income, high price economies in Europe - and we're extremely dear.

I can get 24 Heineken for 14.69 year-round in an Albert Heijn in the Netherlands. Less than €1 a bottle, not a special offer. Equivalent box is €20 for 20 here when not on offer.

10 Kronenbourg for 5.05 in Carrefour in France - smaller bottles, but not by much.

24 33cl cans of Carlsberg for 13.41 in Fotex in Denmark - and I'll get 1.61 back for the cans on the return scheme, so 11.80.

30 33cl bottles of Budweiser for €24.99 (yes, it converted that nicely) in Sainsburys in the UK

oblivious · 10-12-2015 12:03pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't think it's expensive. How can you say €1 for a bottle is expensive? As I said numerous times, all is relative. It may be expensive compared to a 20c bottle from Europe somewhere, but that does not make it expensive in itself.

The argument by the government is that if you increase price it will have an effect. But Irish people paying the third highest tax in the EU on beer, the second highest on spirits and the highest tax in Europe on wine. With out any change in the way we drink. An that's the issue, its how people drink not the price that's the problem.

An to add, alcohol consumption has been dropping over the last 15 years, by approximately 25% (Based on CSO population and migration estimates and Revenue Commissioners Alcohol Clearance data 2013)

flutered · 10-12-2015 12:05pm

rubadub wrote: »

Have you seen any evidence of below cost selling that you can link to? I have asked this many times in many threads and got nothing.

In the UK a year or so ago they investigated the impact of a ban on below cost selling. Turned out only 3-4 non mainstream products were being sold below cost. They would have a similar market to ours. They scrapped the idea and of course the publicans said nothing.

What you have is shouting from vitners that below cost selling goes on, but they never show evidence. Some idiot publicans are paying stupid amounts for beer at wholesale and so presume the supermarkets must be selling below cost since they pay more. This is not particular to publicans, I know a few guys in certain trades who stupidly believe the wholesale cost is ALWAYS less than retail could ever be.
Some publicans post here, in many threads I have pointed out that my local centra often has 20 heineken for €15, and that a centra is not a place people do a full shop in, so very unlikely to be employing a below cost marketing strategy. I see most people carting out beer with nothing else. No publicans or people in the trade ever respond to this for course.

There is no talk of the government getting it. It will be an odd situation. As BeerNut said it could be wholesalers jacking up prices.

It is weird as it might just phase out cheapo beers. If everything stayed the same it would be like going into an offie for 4 cans and having a tenner and them having no change and so being forced to spend it, so instead of going to get 4 cheap €1 cans most would be more inclined to go for premium bottles at €2.50. (well most might get 10 cans but you get my point). In this way it should be very good for craft beers.

A min price on chocolate bars would see people turning to lindt and butlers bars instead of cheapo ones.

if i had a fiver for every time i saw a local publican leave a supermarket with a trolly full of alcahol, i could afford a six months sun and drink holiday

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 12:08pm

oblivious wrote: »

The argument by the government is that if you increase price it will have an effect. But Irish people paying the third highest tax in the EU on beer, the second highest on spirits and the highest tax in Europe on wine. With out any change in the way we drink. An that's the issue, its how people drink not the price that's the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I have never once said this is going to solve any ills, including I think in this thread originally when it was started.

My issue is to how people think we're paying ridiculous money for alcohol as it is. True in pubs, not so true in supermarkets and the off trade.

There's no point comparing us to countries where you can buy a stubby for a few cent, everything in that country is going to be cheaper, not just alcohol. And for comparable country's, just because we're paying more, doesn't necessarily make it expensive, just more expensive than the county you're comparing it with.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 12:15pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's no point comparing us to countries where you can buy a stubby for a few cent, everything in that country is going to be cheaper, not just alcohol.

We're not. We're comparing like with like, despite you repeatedly trying to make the claim that we're not. Saying something over and over again doesn't actually mean someone was doing it. You're effectively trying to construct a strawman here.

ThisRegard wrote: »

And for comparable country's, just because we're paying more, doesn't necessarily make it expensive, just more expensive than the county you're comparing it with.

Yes, it does make it expensive.

What do you think would define what makes something expensive, it not valid comparison?

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 12:32pm

So tell me, what do you think, in Ireland, is not an expensive price for a bottle of beer, and what's your basis for it?

mjv2ydratu679c · 10-12-2015 12:38pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

So tell me, what do you think, in Ireland, is not an expensive price for a bottle of beer, and what's your basis for it?

Seriously are you for real? It was explained so a 4 year old could understand it in post 223.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 12:40pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

So tell me, what do you think, in Ireland, is not an expensive price for a bottle of beer, and what's your basis for it?

I've told you repeatedly.

60c for a normal 330ml bottle of a normal enough ABV% product.

This is roughly what it costs in equivalent economies. Alcohol is 20-40% dearer here than equivalent economies.

Now, I want you to explain why prices are "not expensive" as you keep stating with zero reasoning.

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 12:50pm

Angie Raspy Shark wrote: »

Seriously are you for real? It was explained so a 4 year old could understand it in post 223.

Maybe you're three so because all that did was point out the cost in other countries.

L1011 wrote: »

I've told you repeatedly.

60c for a normal 330ml bottle of a normal enough ABV% product.

This is roughly what it costs in equivalent economies. Alcohol is 20-40% dearer here than equivalent economies.

Now, I want you to explain why prices are "not expensive" as you keep stating with zero reasoning.

Look, it's more expensive, it's not expensive.

There's no point in trying to debate further, but people are off the wall if they think €1 is expensive and expect it to be reasonably priced only when it's cheaper than milk, soft drinks and even water.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 12:59pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

Look, it's more expensive, it's not expensive.

You have completely failed to explain why its not expensive (in your opinion, not backed up by comparisons to anywhere)

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's no point in trying to debate further, but people are off the wall if they think €1 is expensive and expect it to be reasonably priced only when it's cheaper than milk, soft drinks and even water.

Beer is not cheaper than soft drinks or water. I'm beginning to get the feeling you don't actually go in to shops much. Pubs riding people for soft drinks doesn't come in to an off-sales price comparison.

Its not particularly much cheaper than milk either - but beer doesn't have to be processed through an expensive animal that lives on a fairly extensive bit of land.

If you were actually going to bring something to the debate other than "its not expensive, cause I say so" there might be a debate to further - but you haven't

rubadub · 10-12-2015 1:12pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

Look, it's more expensive, it's not expensive.

bizarre!

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's no point in trying to debate further, but people are off the wall if they think €1 is expensive and expect it to be reasonably priced only when it's cheaper than milk, soft drinks and even water.

2L of sparkling water is 49cent in tesco.
I would never pay over 1.50 for a 2L of branded coke, last ones I got were €1 for 2L in tesco a week ago.

I am sure some vitner spokesman could find a 250ml of water bottle on sale for over €2, maybe in one of his buddies pubs, a pint of coke in my local would be €8.55, they usually stick to supermarket prices though, you can find high prices there too if you want. If you want to be an idiot that either pays that much, or believes its the going rate then go right ahead and be fooled.

This stupid comparison to the price of water you always hear should be turned right on its head "wow, some supermarkets are attempting to charge more for water than beer, and beer has all those extra costs associated with it, it's madness"

adomolis · 10-12-2015 1:25pm

Guess it will be time to go back for some shopping in northern ireland. I'll just buy my whiskey and wine stocks for a year and be done with that. Our government is not getting a single C E N T from me with this scam.

murphyaii · 10-12-2015 1:34pm

adomolis wrote: »

Guess it will be time to go back for some shopping in northern ireland. I'll just buy my whiskey and wine stocks for a year and be done with that. Our government is not getting a single C E N T from me with this scam.

not with the current exchange rate and price increases will not come in till next summer.
time to increase my production of home brew wine and beer me thinks.:rolleyes:

adomolis · 10-12-2015 1:43pm

murphyaii wrote: »

not with the current exchange rate and price increases will not come in till next summer.
time to increase my production of home brew wine and beer me thinks.:rolleyes:

Rum over there in ALDI costs 9,99gbp. After conversion even at todays rate thats 13.80eur. And after that law comes into effect that bottle here will cost at least 28eur. So that makes it twice. I think saving 14 euros per bottle is damn worth a trip.

Geuze · 10-12-2015 1:51pm

Clearly, off-trade beer in RoI is more expensive than most other countries, that is true.

When the Govt refer to "cheap beer", they mean the fall in the absolute and relative price of off-trade beer over the last 10-20 years. That is also true.

In 1995 approx, 50cl cans were well over IR£ 1, in fact I think 33cl cans were IR£1.

So a 50cl can was approx half the price of a pub pint.

Now I can buy cans of Guinness on offer for 1.20-1.50, while the pub price is 4.10-4.20.

So, in relative terms, beer is cheaper.

Now 33cl bottles have experienced deflation during last ten years, they were never sub 1-euro twenty years ago.

I have seen 33cl bottles as low as 75c - I can tell you that these prices have fallen not just relatively, but in absolute terms.

dr.fuzzenstein · 10-12-2015 1:52pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

I have. I even lived in a country full of fordeners. But I also saw how much they earned relative to what we earn in Ireland, and they had practically no welfare state.

As I said, everything is relative. Compare their price of beer with their minimum wage and welfare rates for a realistic comparison.

You must be new to this thread and have not seen my consistent postings about the price of alcohol in Aldi in Germany. Here is is again. I can get a bottle of vodka and a six pack for under €15, so yes. Ireland is unreasonably expensive for booze as it is. So price is not the issue. Can we please move on from this stupid, debunked and frankly emberrasing argument?

http://www.supermarktcheck.de/aldi-sued/sortiment/bier/

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 1:55pm

rubadub wrote: »

bizarre!

It's pretty simple actually. a car for €100 is more expensive than a car for €90. But it's not actually expensive.

What exactly is your difficulty with comprehending that simple mathematical operator?

Geuze · 10-12-2015 1:56pm

The cheapest 50cl cans are 22c in Aldi/Lidl in Germany.

50cl bottles of spirits are from 6-7 euro over there.

That nation successfully exports 1 trillion euro of goods and services, and has approx 5% unemployment.

Their life expectancy is similar to ours.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 1:58pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

What exactly is your difficulty with comprehending that simple mathematical operator?

What exactly is your difficulty in explaining why you think Ireland is not expensive?

You've twisted, turned and evaded every way possible. Answer the question.

Geuze · 10-12-2015 2:01pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know, if people think that a bottle of can for €1 or less is not cheap I've no idea what they expect. For it to be cheaper than the water itself used to make it?

Yes, a 50cl can at 1 euro is cheap for Ireland, and for what Irish people are used to.

But it is not cheap compared to many EU countries.

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 2:09pm

L1011 wrote: »

What exactly is your difficulty in explaining why you think Ireland is not expensive?

You've twisted, turned and evaded every way possible. Answer the question.

I've clarified on numerous occasions that I'm talking about the off trade, where you can get a bottle or beer for €1.

I also never said Ireland is cheap for alcohol, I've always said, from the beginning, that you can get cheap alcohol in Ireland.

I have to be asked a question first in order to try twist and evade it.

ThisRegard · 10-12-2015 2:13pm

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, a 50cl can at 1 euro is cheap for Ireland, and for what Irish people are used to.

But it is not cheap compared to many EU countries.

And that's a good part of my point. I've never once said it's cheaper than many EU countries. I'm not sure how old people are here who are arguing against me, buy from when I started drinking you could never get alcohol that cheap. Some people would even buy a bottle of cheap wine because it worked out cheaper to get drunk on that than on beer at the time.

L1011 · 10-12-2015 3:23pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

I've clarified on numerous occasions that I'm talking about the off trade, where you can get a bottle or beer for €1.

So am I, as you well know.

ThisRegard wrote: »

I have to be asked a question first in order to try twist and evade it.

You have been asked it repeatedly

Justify why you believe Ireland is not expensive.

You are spinning around here trying to not give an answer, using pathetic time-waster tactics to try deflect back to earlier in the conversation.

You claim Ireland is not expensive for alcohol. Give your reason(s) for this.

oblivious · 10-12-2015 3:28pm

OK all lets keep the conservation to discussion of the thread title please

mjv2ydratu679c · 10-12-2015 3:42pm

Retracted

Spanish Eyes · 10-12-2015 3:46pm

Is the legislation published yet?

Will the EU object on free trade grounds like they did in Scotland?

A few hoops to go through yet, not to mind an election first.

If it does happen to come in, I will go to Sainsburys in Newry and import the lot of it.

Their prices are great on their website for fairly decent everyday wines. That's my mind made up anyway.

Even factoring in the cost of travelling up there it would be worth it to just refuse to buy any alcohol down here in an off license.

I wonder will the supermarkets lodge an action with the EU? The off licenses are generally attached to pubs but there are some independents out there too.

Fuppin Nanny State, it's putting us all in bad humour, other than the pompous health fanatic brigade.

They are slowly running out of things to control in our lives, so I wonder what's left now.

This will solve nothing.

BuilderPlumber · 10-12-2015 3:52pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Is the legislation published yet?

Will the EU object on free trade grounds like they did in Scotland?

A few hoops to go through yet, not to mind an election first.

If it does happen to come in, I will go to Sainsburys in Newry and import the lot of it.

Their prices are great on their website for fairly decent everyday wines. That's my mind made up anyway.

Even factoring in the cost of travelling up there it would be worth it to just refuse to buy any alcohol down here in an off license.

I wonder will the supermarkets lodge an action with the EU? The off licenses are generally attached to pubs but there are some independents out there too.

Fuppin Nanny State, it's putting us all in bad humour, other than the pompous health fanatic brigade.

They are slowly running out of things to control in our lives, so I wonder what's left now.

This will solve nothing.

This stuff will not get published until the other side of the general election for obvious reasons. Also, it probably has only the support of a minority of the government, those close to vintners. If it comes in, it will be with a lot of loopholes.

stefanovich · 10-12-2015 4:06pm

This was probably asked before but now the bottles of blue nun and tesco value lager are going to increase will that now push all the prices of alcohol up? My Châteauneuf-du-Pape and Laphroig will double in price?

Or will Linden Village need to up its game?

Or will the peasants now be drinking top notch vino by the bucketload causing supply problems and price increases across the board.

I happily pay at or above the minimum prices now for decent plonk.

Geuze · 10-12-2015 4:06pm

http://www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?DocId=-1&CatID=59&m=b

Not published yet.

Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

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