Criminal Record Question

MagicSean · 11-01-2011 5:51pm

Reloc8 wrote: »

Fairly obvious having regard to the bit in bold above (and the other stuff but mostly that bit) that he pleaded guilty, I would think.

Not really. Lots of people discover remorse when they see the effects of a conviction. And being cooperative with Gardaí does not mean pleading guilty.

Reloc8 · 11-01-2011 6:08pm

I'm sure in your experience in the gardai you would have noted that it is rare and unusual for the prosecuting member to deal with the case in the terms described otherwise than on a plea of guilty.

With that said, it has not been confirmed so I'll leave it at that.

Anyway the direct question asked was is it worth appealing, to which the answer is simply yes.

Whether the OP should get any benefit from an appeal is a matter for a judge.

vibe666 · 11-01-2011 6:38pm

Tom Young wrote: »

I think this is a little bit too ideal world scenario. These matters are processed like a conveyor belt on a supermarket queue. I'm not judging the OP or you Pirelli but the reality needs to be faced up to.

Tom

anyone can inadvertantly get into trouble with the law at some stage in their life, be it a minor or some types of major offence. allowing those people who are in otherwise good standing who make one foolish mistake and get themselves into a bit of trouble once to have the opportunity to keep their nose clean for several years and eventually 'shed' a conviction that has been hanging over them seems like a great idea to me.

or does nobody deserve any second chances in life ever?

MagicSean · 11-01-2011 8:57pm

Reloc8 wrote: »

I'm sure in your experience in the gardai you would have noted that it is rare and unusual for the prosecuting member to deal with the case in the terms described otherwise than on a plea of guilty.

I've been in court many times when a person has been found guilty of an offence. The solicitor will usually bring up their cooperation with the Gardaí during arrest and detention as part of their mitigation.

vibe666 wrote: »

anyone can inadvertantly get into trouble with the law at some stage in their life, be it a minor or some types of major offence. allowing those people who are in otherwise good standing who make one foolish mistake and get themselves into a bit of trouble once to have the opportunity to keep their nose clean for several years and eventually 'shed' a conviction that has been hanging over them seems like a great idea to me.

or does nobody deserve any second chances in life ever?

Thats the reasoning behind the introduction of the adult caution, as well as court orders for charitable donations and probation act. It's very rare that a person with no criminal history will leave court with a conviction for a drunken mistake.

vibe666 · 12-01-2011 12:30am

k_mac wrote: »

Thats the reasoning behind the introduction of the adult caution, as well as court orders for charitable donations and probation act. It's very rare that a person with no criminal history will leave court with a conviction for a drunken mistake.

its not just drunken mistakes tho, there's plenty of different crimes that an otherwise upstanding citizen could have committed that would demand a criminal conviction, but that doesn't mean that the person should be tarred for life for a single mistake no matter what they do from that point on to turn their life around and try and make up for that one mistake.

i'm not saying that all convictions should mandatorily be 'spent' after x no. of years, but there should at least be an option for a judge to apply an optional spent addendum to the conviction so that after say 7 years of the convicted person staying out of trouble it's closed for good and locked away and cannot be used in anything except in future (potential) criminal proceedings.

Bosco boy · 12-01-2011 12:54am

vibe666 wrote: »

its not just drunken mistakes tho, there's plenty of different crimes that an otherwise upstanding citizen could have committed that would demand a criminal conviction, but that doesn't mean that the person should be tarred for life for a single mistake no matter what they do from that point on to turn their life around and try and make up for that one mistake.

i'm not saying that all convictions should mandatorily be 'spent' after x no. of years, but there should at least be an option for a judge to apply an optional spent addendum to the conviction so that after say 7 years of the convicted person staying out of trouble it's closed for good and locked away and cannot be used in anything except in future (potential) criminal proceedings.

I wonder how the judge got it so wrong in the OP's case, Maybe cause the judge heard the true facts/evidence and being the judge decided it merited a conviction, the op has been asked to clarify a few simple questions and has as of yet no done so. If he was so innocent i think he'd be here fighting his corner.

Reloc8 · 12-01-2011 12:15pm

This is verging on the ridiculous. At no stage has the OP asserted his innocence on this board, or sought to 'fight his corner' on the basis of being innocent.

There is an inappropriate sense of judgmental glee beginning to manifest itself in some of the responses to the quite specific query raised, and it is difficult not to conclude that it is connected with the professional roles filled by posters in 'real life'.

Its all well and good until its yourself or someone close to you who makes a stupid mistake. Going on what has been posted here, you'd be telling that person not to exercise their legal remedies as well.

Bosco boy · 12-01-2011 7:11pm

if you want to get personal, In my professional capacity I have encountered many in the upper classes who adopt an attitude that the laws of the land only apply to the lower classes and express shock horror that they are before the courts when there are real criminals out there, the laws apply to everyone equally. If you do the crime you do the time. The op was asked to clarify a few simple questions and has not bothered to reply, that's what I meant by fighting his corner. I'm all for certain convictions to be erased over time, but not because of what social class you belong to. I take no glee as you say in his prediciment, but It was not a victimless crime and I don't believe we are getting the full story.

MagicSean · 12-01-2011 7:54pm

Reloc8 wrote: »

This is verging on the ridiculous. At no stage has the OP asserted his innocence on this board, or sought to 'fight his corner' on the basis of being innocent.

There is an inappropriate sense of judgmental glee beginning to manifest itself in some of the responses to the quite specific query raised, and it is difficult not to conclude that it is connected with the professional roles filled by posters in 'real life'.

Its all well and good until its yourself or someone close to you who makes a stupid mistake. Going on what has been posted here, you'd be telling that person not to exercise their legal remedies as well.

I don't see this judgemental glee you refer to. I think that he should be able to appeal if he had not been offered the chance of an adult caution and even if it happened before the adult caution scheme.

Johnny Utah · 12-01-2011 10:10pm

Reloc8 wrote: »

The grounds to appeal a conviction do not necessarily have to be that a person contests their guilt of the offence - it is very common that a convicted person with an otherwise clean record and good history appeals with a view to asking the judge on appeal to apply the Probation Act.

OP - if you have never been in any trouble before, as far as the courts are concerned, there is every substantive merit in appealing the conviction.
It may seem expensive but the consequences of the conviction for work and other purposes are capable of being severe.

I leave the moral "judgments" to others, safe in the knowledge that this thread will not lack them. People who never made mistakes, or never had someone close to them take a wrong turn in life, are fortunate to live outside of the greenhouse and can chuck rocks to their heart's content.

Any person convicted has a right of appeal, both against severity and finding of guilt. Asking the OP to take a moral decision that he won't avail of his legal remedies in a situation like this is so ridiculously sanctimonious as to hardly bear belief.

By the way it is blatantly obvious that the OP in this case pleaded guilty in the District Court to the offence.

Spot on (as usual) Reloc8.

Reloc8 wrote: »

This is verging on the ridiculous. At no stage has the OP asserted his innocence on this board, or sought to 'fight his corner' on the basis of being innocent.

There is an inappropriate sense of judgmental glee beginning to manifest itself in some of the responses to the quite specific query raised, and it is difficult not to conclude that it is connected with the professional roles filled by posters in 'real life'.

Its all well and good until its yourself or someone close to you who makes a stupid mistake. Going on what has been posted here, you'd be telling that person not to exercise their legal remedies as well.

Noticed that too on a lot of threads in the legal discussion forum.

Bosco boy · 12-01-2011 11:31pm

Maybe certain professions should be banned so johnny

sideways mary · 13-01-2011 1:46am

Hi sorry havent been online in a few days, was surprised to see it got so many replies! thanks for the interest.

I appealed it, under guidance from my solicitor, that a criminal conviction was an unfair punishment for the offence i commited. He said that a warning and a donation to the courts poor box would have been fairer. To be honest, i'd donate any amount of money that i could possibly afford to the poor box just to get rid of the conviction, just dont want it hanging over my head.

I never pleaded my innocence with regard to what happened, at the time it happend i was too pissed drunk to even talk let alone know what i was doing. I admitted I left the nightclub with the bag, even though i don't remember it whatsoever. My solicitor just said it was completely out of character for me and that it was a complete one off case, i was highly intoxicated at the time and regretted it deeply.. which is true.

The guards in court that day said that I was very cooperative and polite with the guards that night and was apologetic. Also that i was very intoxicated and had no previous convictions.

It isnt a case of it being too long since the offence happened. I appealed the case STRAIGHT AWAY, the day after the court day i think. I was called back to court in May 2009, only to find out when i walk in that court was cancelled and my solicitor had never informed me. I then got a letter in the post ago saying my case was in court In November 2010, of course again, my solicitor didn't inform me. So I went into the court office and solicitor and said that I wasnt informed about the court case and that I wish to appeal it. At the moment my solicitor tells me that I should be up in the circuit court in march for the appeal.

At the moment its looking at around 2000euro in legal costs, 2 days in court, 3 years of worry and regret and then whatever fine or hopefully poorbox donation I get when i go back to court. All for one drunken night.. the level of regret and shame i feel is unbelievable. I feel that the costs and experiences i have gone through is enough punishment, to say i learned my lesson is an understatement. So, although i know what i did was wrong and foolish, i'll be absolutely shattered and devasted if my conviction still stands after all of this. And if it does then i'll have to accept it and move on. thats life.

vibe666 · 13-01-2011 1:49am

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Spot on (as usual) Reloc8.

ditt, +1.

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Noticed that too on a lot of threads in the legal discussion forum.

not just the legal forum, it's rife all over boards.ie, high horses abound and lots of people living in glass houses too i'd imagine.

Bosco boy wrote: »

Maybe certain professions should be banned so johnny

no, not banned, just undertaken with a certain level of professionalism. the clue is in the name.

i don't recall the OP making any claims to be of a particular class at all, only that he is a law student of otherwise good standing who has the potential to make something of his life if he can get out from under his one stupid mistake that got him in trouble with the law.

he has admitted his mistake and paid the price for it. all he is looking for is a way to remove the black cloud from over his head so he can move on with his life and not let a drunken teenage mistake haunt him for the rest of his life.

this may come as a shock to you bosco, but the law isn't always fair and it isn't always right.

Bosco boy · 13-01-2011 1:53am

Were you offered an adult caution? did the judge give a reason why they were recording a conviction even though it was your first offence?

sideways mary · 13-01-2011 1:59am

vibe666 wrote: »

i don't recall the OP making any claims to be of a particular class at all, only that he is a law student of otherwise good standing who has the potential to make something of his life if he can get out from under his one stupid mistake that got him in trouble with the law.

he has admitted his mistake and paid the price for it. all he is looking for is a way to remove the black cloud from over his head so he can move on with his life and not let a drunken teenage mistake haunt him for the rest of his life.

this may come as a shock to you bosco, but the law isn't always fair and it isn't always right.

That sums it up 100%.. spot on. I never said i am in any way better than anyone else. I come from a working class backround, not that it matters anyway, if people think i made any reference to my social standing or anything like that it was probably relating to me saying that I am in my final year in college, on course for a really good level degree, with good work experience and CV. All of which i worked hard to get myself. I just want this conviction for something I did in first year in college when i was 19 not to cast a dark cloud over everything positive i have done in life so far..

Bosco boy · 13-01-2011 2:01am

Vibe 666 if you would care to expand on the glasshouses part I'd be interested?

sideways mary · 13-01-2011 2:02am

Bosco boy wrote: »

Were you offered an adult caution? did the judge give a reason why they were recording a conviction even though it was your first offence?

the judge gave no reason whatsoever into the decision he made, in fact i think the only thing he said regarding my case was along the lines of €200 fine, 90 days to pay it... etc.. i wasnt offered an adults caution

Bosco boy · 13-01-2011 2:08am

sideways mary wrote: »

the judge gave no reason whatsoever into the decision he made, in fact i think the only thing he said regarding my case was along the lines of €200 fine, 90 days to pay it... etc.. i wasnt offered an adults caution

You probally should have been considered for an adult caution, it should have been available at the time, I think it was 3 years ago. In fairness I think it was someone else who mentioned a certain social standing. I believe everyone should be treated equally, that's my point. It's worth a try and best of luck!

MagicSean · 13-01-2011 2:52am

I think the social standing stuff came from post number 3 were the op said that unlike 90% of people with a criminal record he had a promising future.

Op you should find out the date adult cautions were introduced and see if your incident was before or after.

Laisurg · 13-01-2011 3:06am

Wow a lot of people being dickheads in this thread...
But at the end of the day the justice system in this country is bollocks, did u actually take the bag out of the club? or were u just walking around with it on ur shoulder pissed? If you didn't take it out you might have a shot but if you actually took it outside it could be tough.

Kate P · 13-01-2011 10:12am

k_mac wrote: »

But if he pleaded not guilty he probably refused the adult caution.

Lots of ifs and probablies there that don't reflect the OP.

Reloc8 · 13-01-2011 10:23am

sideways mary wrote: »

Hi sorry havent been online in a few days, was surprised to see it got so many replies! thanks for the interest.

I appealed it, under guidance from my solicitor, that a criminal conviction was an unfair punishment for the offence i commited. He said that a warning and a donation to the courts poor box would have been fairer. To be honest, i'd donate any amount of money that i could possibly afford to the poor box just to get rid of the conviction, just dont want it hanging over my head.

I never pleaded my innocence with regard to what happened, at the time it happend i was too pissed drunk to even talk let alone know what i was doing. I admitted I left the nightclub with the bag, even though i don't remember it whatsoever. My solicitor just said it was completely out of character for me and that it was a complete one off case, i was highly intoxicated at the time and regretted it deeply.. which is true.

The guards in court that day said that I was very cooperative and polite with the guards that night and was apologetic. Also that i was very intoxicated and had no previous convictions.

It isnt a case of it being too long since the offence happened. I appealed the case STRAIGHT AWAY, the day after the court day i think. I was called back to court in May 2009, only to find out when i walk in that court was cancelled and my solicitor had never informed me. I then got a letter in the post ago saying my case was in court In November 2010, of course again, my solicitor didn't inform me. So I went into the court office and solicitor and said that I wasnt informed about the court case and that I wish to appeal it. At the moment my solicitor tells me that I should be up in the circuit court in march for the appeal.

Obviously you are not on legal aid having paid your legal costs - I just wanted to let you know that on an appeal from Dublin District to Dublin Circuit where the defendant is not on legal aid, the Solicitor would not necessarily have gotten a letter from the Courts to tell him/her when you appeal was coming up. If there was some note on the court file of him/her acting for you - which there often isn't where fees are privately paid - he/she might have, but most likely not.

So it would seem you got a letter saying go to Court in May 2009 then that was cancelled for some reason. Then a letter in the post for November 2010. Your solicitor if they were a reasonably astute practitioner would probably have spotted your name in the court list, and even though you hadn't been in touch (I take it you missed the letter in the post) and they hadn't been told your case was coming up they are quite likely to have advised the Judge of having acted for you in the District Court and sought an adjournment in your absence.

I'm just saying - they seem to have given you good advice - they might not have dropped the ball in the way you think.

Good luck with your appeal.

MagicSean · 13-01-2011 2:31pm

Kate P wrote: »

Lots of ifs and probablies there that don't reflect the OP.

I was more making a general observation that a person who pleads not guilty in court would likely have refused an adult caution

Bosco boy · 13-01-2011 5:43pm

Maybe the real problem was the op was not well represented in the district court and decent mitigation put forward especially with his clean record. He appears to have definately been let down in the appeal process afterwards, especially if it was the same solicitor.

vibe666 · 13-01-2011 11:48pm

Bosco boy wrote: »

Vibe 666 if you would care to expand on the glasshouses part I'd be interested?

i mean that people on boards.ie (in general, not anyone specific) are very very quick to judge people and make all sorts of assumptions because its a (relatively speaking) anonymous medium with which they can point the finger and make snap judgements with very little info, particularly when it comes to getting in trouble with the law or anything even remotely illegal.

given the right (or wrong) circumstances, pretty much anyone can be capable of pretty much anything and the only difference between a law abiding citizen and a criminal is being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or making one stupid mistake.

sometimes its not even that. there are people sitting wallowing in jails around the world right now who have committed no crime whatsoever and were wrongly convicted. sometimes life just sucks.

UDAWINNER · 14-01-2011 12:16am

The thing that really annoys me about this thread is the fact that if a working class person stole a handbag, there would be no overturning the conviction but because it is a student, they are supposed to overturn it... live with it, you broke the law and should pay the price.

pirelli · 14-01-2011 3:49am

UDAWINNER wrote: »

The thing that really annoys me about this thread is the fact that if a working class person stole a handbag, there would be no overturning the conviction but because it is a student, they are supposed to overturn it... live with it, you broke the law and should pay the price.

So you don't like students then or just dislike persons aspiring to a class system?

The OP has said himself that he was a person from a working class background at the time of the incident. It seems that your contradicting yourself 'UDAWINNER' by objecting to his conviction being overturned. On that basis should you now wish to support the OP having his conviction overturned.

I think it's fustrating that the police do not prosecute more people and instead focus prosecuting the same old faces that have fallen too far from grace. We should have a fair system that manages to punish all persons provided their is a rehabilitation system in place. Without wrongfully revealing people's wrong's their should be respect for the law and less of the 'code of silence' whether that is in the ranks or ratting on a mate.

It is fanciful that posters that come here to complain about a class sytem when their is hard core legal corruption in ireland that is exploited by persons of all classes
whether they be managers or civil servants. Ireland's class is rotten from top to bottom and it's rotten core twist 's and turns and much of that swirl of contempt for truth and honesty and justice comes from the irish judicial system and Irelands guardians.

Simply in my view in this post recession country we need citizens like the OP who has a qualification in Accountancy. We need to manage our money very carefully and have to turn our debt interest into a profit and savvy financial wizardy can do this. Let's not resort to cutting the hands off our workers but instead rehabilitate them into better citizens.

Billy7878 · 14-01-2011 5:11am

sideways, I reckon give it a few years and they wont even bring it up when you apply for a visa, maybe now they would when ten years have passed it is doubtful from what I have seen, and stay away from the merlot if you do get to cali

UDAWINNER · 14-01-2011 9:57am

pirelli wrote: »

So you don't like students then or just dislike persons aspiring to a class system?

The OP has said himself that he was a person from a working class background at the time of the incident. It seems that your contradicting yourself 'UDAWINNER' by objecting to his conviction being overturned. On that basis should you now wish to support the OP having his conviction overturned.

I think it's fustrating that the police do not prosecute more people and instead focus prosecuting the same old faces that have fallen too far from grace. We should have a fair system that manages to punish all persons provided their is a rehabilitation system in place. Without wrongfully revealing people's wrong's their should be respect for the law and less of the 'code of silence' whether that is in the ranks or ratting on a mate.

It is fanciful that posters that come here to complain about a class sytem when their is hard core legal corruption in ireland that is exploited by persons of all classes
whether they be managers or civil servants. Ireland's class is rotten from top to bottom and it's rotten core twist 's and turns and much of that swirl of contempt for truth and honesty and justice comes from the irish judicial system and Irelands guardians.

Simply in my view in this post recession country we need citizens like the OP who has a qualification in Accountancy. We need to manage our money very carefully and have to turn our debt interest into a profit and savvy financial wizardy can do this. Let's not resort to cutting the hands off our workers but instead rehabilitate them into better citizens.

firstly, i was a student a few years ago, commerce degree from UCC..i just don't believe as a student, you have the right to break the law and not pay consequences.

ldxo15wus6fpgm · 14-01-2011 10:16am

UDAWINNER wrote: »

firstly, i was a student a few years ago, commerce degree from UCC..i just don't believe as a student, you have the right to break the law and not pay consequences.

For the love of god man.
He's not asking "Can I please get away with this because I'm a student?"

He's wondering whether he should appeal against a conviction which is a bit much under the given circumstances. So the guy made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. While he should be punished just as everyone else would, those circumstances need to be taken into account.
There are plenty of people out there with convictions to their name who are of good character and made a bad decision at some stage in their life. This fella appears to be one of them.

Remember that deterrence is also part of the criminal system. Is having a full on conviction on this guy's record going to deter him from offending again, any more than an adult caution would? Probably not, as he sounds like he wants to make something of his life and won't offend again anyway.
I reckon a judge will see that letting this guy get on with his work etc. by giving a caution would benefit society more than leaving the conviction and giving him employment trouble in the future, possibly for the rest of his life. All because of one mistake.

Nothing to do with his class in socety, or where he comes from, or the fact that he's in 3rd level education, or the way he speaks/dresses etc.

And finally, for that bit in bold specifically. Come down from that high horse, before you hurt yourself. Can you honestly say you have never broken the law? Doubtful. When you did, did you immediately surrender yourself to the Gardai?

No?

That's what I thought.

Criminal Record Question

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