Criminal Record Question

sideways mary · 07-01-2011 8:00pm #1

Hi everyone, new to this forum, just needed to ask a question and was hoping someone might be able to help.

Firstly, about me. Im a 22 year old male in my final year of college, on course to graduate with a 2.1 degree in business. I was working with one of the big 4 accountancy firms for 8 months on work experience last year and I was told that if i wanted to go travelling to maybe australia or america after college that they could sort me out with a job in one of the regional offices of the firm over there.. and thats where my problem/question arises.

I have a criminal conviction after one really drunken night nearly 3 years ago, cant remember much from that night but got arrested and subsequently brought to court and convicted. The offence was minor, from what i have been told I picked up a girls handbag on the ground in a nightclub, walked around with it on my shoulder, then left the club about an hour later, bouncer rings guards, me arrested, convicted on theft. Don't remember it at all and I certainly didn't mean it, but that's life.

I appealed the decision in court to remove my criminal conviction, my solicitors were a joke, firstly didn't inform me court was cancelled one day when my appeal was supposed to be on and then didn't tell me the date the appeal was actually on so I missed it. But have the option of going back to re-appeal it again in March.

As you can imagine, legal fees are starting to pile up.

Anyway, just wondering is it worth appealing it? My solicitor says theres no guarantee that the conviction will be removed when i go back to court, and it could get quite expensive.. but i REALLY don't want this thing hanging over my head, really want to get rid of it and move on with my life

Also, can i get a visa to work in Australia or America with my criminal record? Even if it is a minor offence.

Thanks for your help

MagicMarker · 07-01-2011 8:08pm

Well, you stole a purse, it's not a ''minor'' offense, it's theft. Why would they overturn your conviction?

Getting a visa will be difficult, probably impossible when it comes to the U.S.

sideways mary · 07-01-2011 8:17pm

Yeah true, I dont remember it nor did i mean it but in black and white thats what it is, it is theft. I dont know what came over me that night, dont remember a thing. The girl who owned the handbag got everything back, I apologised to everyone concerned the next day, guards included. I just think it might be overturned because unlike 90% of the people with criminal records, I actually have a promising future and havent been on the dole since leaving school. Just thought that they would take the fact that i have a great opportunity to work with a huge firm in a different country and the fact that i havent got in any trouble whatsoever in the past 3 years into consideration. Just thought they might take circumstances into consideration, that single drunken mistake could potentially ruin my career which annoys me a bit when i see fellas pucking the heads off each and vandalising things every weekend and get away with warnings..

Wolfe Tone · 07-01-2011 8:29pm

unlike 90% of the people with criminal records, I actually have a promising future and havent been on the dole since leaving school.

Thats not a fair thing to say.

You stole the handbag, simple as, why would it be overturned? Cause you go to college?

MagicSean · 07-01-2011 8:35pm

Have you never been in trouble before? Never received an adult caution?

Mr McBoatface · 07-01-2011 9:07pm

You got pissed out of your head, you stole something and you admit as much. You displayed a lack of self control then and now you are displaying an extraordinary level of arrogance by appealing the court decision which was correct just because in your opinion you have a "promising future".

You've have to deal with the consequence of your crime - you are a convicted thief (albeit an educated one) there is nothing to appeal against. Grow a set... accept that you where stupid and move on. It's not the end of the world.

As for a VISA application you'll never know until you apply for it but I believe both countries you mentioned have become very strict in recent years.

If the above sounds harsh it's for your benefit, your solicitors probably know you have not got a chance in hell but they are willing to take your money if you are silly enough to give it to them.

sideways mary · 07-01-2011 9:20pm

alright so, I just can't understand how other people who deliberatly beat the **** out of someone else get let go with cautions and what not.

Im not sure how I displayed any levels of arrogance? Im not a solicitor or anything, i just wanted to appeal the decision because i didnt want that hanging over me, thats all. I thought the fact that I hadnt any previous convictions or crimes and the fact that the guards said in court that i was very cooperative and apologetic and was just really intoxicated might have helped me but obviously not.

MagicSean · 07-01-2011 9:38pm

sideways mary wrote: »

alright so, I just can't understand how other people who deliberatly beat the **** out of someone else get let go with cautions and what not.

Im not sure how I displayed any levels of arrogance? Im not a solicitor or anything, i just wanted to appeal the decision because i didnt want that hanging over me, thats all. I thought the fact that I hadnt any previous convictions or crimes and the fact that the guards said in court that i was very cooperative and apologetic and was just really intoxicated might have helped me but obviously not.

where you offered an adult caution?

Zambia · 07-01-2011 9:46pm

Yeah dude theft is a biggy however as there is no Jail time Australia might still be open to you I will ask on the BE forum as its an intresting one.

As this is the legal discussion forum. Here in R V Murray 1980* it is basically stated by the judge that even if drunkness is used as a defence the fact a person was drunk it does not mean they did not mean to do what they did.

The fact you picked up a handbag not and left the club with it does not bode well IMO as even when I am shot to **** I know I have no business with a girls handbag (except thursday nights)

You should ask the question on Britishexpats.com

Basically state your case , chances are some Pom has done this as well

Mr McBoatface · 07-01-2011 9:51pm

I agree the criminal system is a joke and for what ever reason repeat offenders seem to get off lightly but that doesn't change the fact you committed a crime and where found guilty of it (or did you plead guilty ?)

If you felt your conviction was unjust you should have appealed it at the time and not 3 years later. Appealing it now because just because you have learned/realised the conviction might impede your future and not because the conviction was unjust seem arrogant to me. Comments like "really want to get rid of it and move on with my life" and "I just think it might be overturned because unlike 90% of the people with criminal records, I actually have a promising future and havent been on the dole since leaving school" also seem arrogant IMO.

I'm sorry if I come across very harsh but there is alot wrong with our society, an unwillingness across all levels of society to accept responsibility for ones personal actions is IMO a big problem that affects this country greatly. Your posts screams of a attitude I hate - "I know I was wrong but It wasn't my fault really and other do worse and get away with it .......so why can't I"

McCrack · 07-01-2011 11:07pm

OP can I ask on what grounds are you appealing this conviction?

sideways mary · 08-01-2011 4:06am

jobyrne30 wrote: »

I agree the criminal system is a joke and for what ever reason repeat offenders seem to get off lightly but that doesn't change the fact you committed a crime and where found guilty of it (or did you plead guilty ?)

If you felt your conviction was unjust you should have appealed it at the time and not 3 years later. Appealing it now because just because you have learned/realised the conviction might impede your future and not because the conviction was unjust seem arrogant to me. Comments like "really want to get rid of it and move on with my life" and "I just think it might be overturned because unlike 90% of the people with criminal records, I actually have a promising future and havent been on the dole since leaving school" also seem arrogant IMO.

I'm sorry if I come across very harsh but there is alot wrong with our society, an unwillingness across all levels of society to accept responsibility for ones personal actions is IMO a big problem that affects this country greatly. Your posts screams of a attitude I hate - "I know I was wrong but It wasn't my fault really and other do worse and get away with it .......so why can't I"

I did appeal it straight away, straight away after i leaving court 3 years ago i told my solicitor i wanted to appeal it. I was told i was back in the circuit court just over a year later, went in that day, no one there, court was cancelled due to lack of judges but no one informed me. The next time i was supposed to be in court was last November but again, my solicitor didn't inform me so obviously i missed it and had to contact my solicitor and appeal it again.

I completely admit what i did was wrong, I'll 100% admit to that, it was a completely stupid thing to do and i regret it every day since. Just when I was younger maybe i didn't have the cop on to realise when something was a stupid idea or not, but something like that will never happen again. Even though it makes no difference, in every aspect of my life apart from that night I am the least 'criminal' person ever. I coach kids in soccer, help out my elderly neighbours.. etc.. It just annoys me that i made one stupid decision one night when out of my mind with drink that overrules everything i have ever done and brands me a criminal forever. But i suppose that's life, have no one to blame but myself..

detective · 08-01-2011 11:37am

k_mac keeps asking you a very relevant question but you seem to be ignoring/missing it. were you offered a caution. if it happened three years ago then you may have just about missed the boat but only just. if this is the case i feel for you. we all make stupid decisions whilst drunk and everyone deserves a second chance. i want to ask an important question - did you fully contest in the district court and make witnesses/injured party give evidence?

MagicSean · 08-01-2011 12:43pm

detective wrote: »

k_mac keeps asking you a very relevant question but you seem to be ignoring/missing it. were you offered a caution. if it happened three years ago then you may have just about missed the boat but only just. if this is the case i feel for you. we all make stupid decisions whilst drunk and everyone deserves a second chance. i want to ask an important question - did you fully contest in the district court and make witnesses/injured party give evidence?

Thank you. I wasn't planning on asking again. You raise an interesting point though. If the op was too early for an adult caution would this be grounds for appeal to overturn the conviction in favour of an adult caution?

Bosco boy · 08-01-2011 2:17pm

I've a feeling the case was contested initially and the op lost, hence no adult caution if it was available.

MagicSean · 08-01-2011 2:22pm

Bosco boy wrote: »

I've a feeling the case was contested initially and the op lost, hence no adult caution if it was available.

I'd say you're right. But I wonder if it would be possible for a person who had pleaded guilty to return to court and have a conviction quashed in favour of an adult caution.

detective · 08-01-2011 2:24pm

Bosco boy wrote: »

I've a feeling the case was contested initially and the op lost, hence no adult caution if it was available.

if thats the case my sympathy will have diminished somewhat, completely actually.

detective · 08-01-2011 2:26pm

k_mac wrote: »

I'd say you're right. But I wonder if it would be possible for a person who had pleaded guilty to return to court and have a conviction quashed in favour of an adult caution.

not a hope, court can't act retrospectively.in the same way gardai cant charge someone for something that wasnt an offence when it occurred, civilians cant avail of it either. however, in the sense that judges can do almost anything they wish then maybe it would be possible if the judge took it into account (which he shouldn't).

pirelli · 08-01-2011 6:05pm

OP... I think you should appeal. Ireland has no rehabilitation act. A person of good standing such as yourself should be entitled to a spent conviction. It would also mean that you can not be blackmailed or have your conviction wrongly revealed. Your being judged on this forum and being called arrogant for example.

You might argue that your punishment is overly harsh due to the fact ireland has no rehabilitation act in place. If it had then you would be able to work more productively and it's now that ireland desperately needs talented persons in finance.

I am sure given a chance you would repay your victim and apologise to her and have learned in hindsight that how you treated her was wrong and hurtful and i suppose there is only so much the courts can do for you but after 7 years that conviction should be at the very least spent.

Tom Young · 08-01-2011 8:17pm

pirelli wrote: »

OP... I think you should appeal. Ireland has no rehabilitation act. A person of good standing such as yourself should be entitled to a spent conviction. It would also mean that you can not be blackmailed or have your conviction wrongly revealed. Your being judged on this forum and being called arrogant for example.

You might argue that your punishment is overly harsh due to the fact ireland has no rehabilitation act in place. If it had then you would be able to work more productively and it's now that ireland desperately needs talented persons in finance.

I am sure given a chance you would repay your victim and apologise to her and have learned in hindsight that how you treated her was wrong and hurtful and i suppose there is only so much the courts can do for you but after 7 years that conviction should be at the very least spent.

I think this is a little bit too ideal world scenario. These matters are processed like a conveyor belt on a supermarket queue. I'm not judging the OP or you Pirelli but the reality needs to be faced up to.

Tom

Bosco boy · 08-01-2011 10:13pm

pirelli wrote: »

OP... I think you should appeal. Ireland has no rehabilitation act. A person of good standing such as yourself should be entitled to a spent conviction. It would also mean that you can not be blackmailed or have your conviction wrongly revealed. Your being judged on this forum and being called arrogant for example.

You might argue that your punishment is overly harsh due to the fact ireland has no rehabilitation act in place. If it had then you would be able to work more productively and it's now that ireland desperately needs talented persons in finance.

I am sure given a chance you would repay your victim and apologise to her and have learned in hindsight that how you treated her was wrong and hurtful and i suppose there is only so much the courts can do for you but after 7 years that conviction should be at the very least spent.

Are you suggesting a two tier system where the wealthy and fortunate are treated differently to the poor and unfortunate, a convicted thief is a convicted thief regardless of who their daddy is or where they come from. I'm all for minor convictions to be erased after a certain period but not because of who you are.

McCrack · 10-01-2011 12:15am

OP you havent answered my question to you..on what grounds are you appealling?

Also I'm going to add an opinion here, I think there is more to this than what you describe or indeed you own repute.

A conviction in the circumstances as you describe seems unduly harsh so I am thinking there is more to this.

Zambia · 10-01-2011 7:57am

It appears this may not stop you entering Australia

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/79character.htm

However I can imagine you would love to not have to plead your case

spurs2010 · 11-01-2011 1:35am

This may need a thread on its own. I see a lot of references to adult cautions.

I would never ever accept an adult caution ...... If you sign for one it is sent to Garda Vetting and resulted as such that the person the subject of the caution was in trouble and admitted it.

It is not a criminal court conviction but the Commissioner views it as a solved crime so guess what when any prospective employer does a background check what crops up....... you guessed it the adult caution.

Talk to a court solicitor who knows what he's at.;)

MagicSean · 11-01-2011 2:36am

spurs2010 wrote: »

This may need a thread on its own. I see a lot of references to adult cautions.

I would never ever accept an adult caution ...... If you sign for one it is sent to Garda Vetting and resulted as such that the person the subject of the caution was in trouble and admitted it.

It is not a criminal court conviction but the Commissioner views it as a solved crime so guess what when any prospective employer does a background check what crops up....... you guessed it the adult caution.

Talk to a court solicitor who knows what he's at.;)

A background check?

Reloc8 · 11-01-2011 9:22am

The grounds to appeal a conviction do not necessarily have to be that a person contests their guilt of the offence - it is very common that a convicted person with an otherwise clean record and good history appeals with a view to asking the judge on appeal to apply the Probation Act.

OP - if you have never been in any trouble before, as far as the courts are concerned, there is every substantive merit in appealing the conviction.
It may seem expensive but the consequences of the conviction for work and other purposes are capable of being severe.

I leave the moral "judgments" to others, safe in the knowledge that this thread will not lack them. People who never made mistakes, or never had someone close to them take a wrong turn in life, are fortunate to live outside of the greenhouse and can chuck rocks to their heart's content.

Any person convicted has a right of appeal, both against severity and finding of guilt. Asking the OP to take a moral decision that he won't avail of his legal remedies in a situation like this is so ridiculously sanctimonious as to hardly bear belief.

By the way it is blatantly obvious that the OP in this case pleaded guilty in the District Court to the offence.

Kate P · 11-01-2011 10:12am

Bosco boy wrote: »

I've a feeling the case was contested initially and the op lost, hence no adult caution if it was available.

I think you've the chronology all wrong there - the caution comes before or instead of a court appearance and plea. It may be that the Probation Act wouldn't be applied if the case was contested but that's an entirely different matter.

Kate P · 11-01-2011 10:14am

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/law_enforcement/adult_cautioning_scheme.html

All the details are here.

MagicSean · 11-01-2011 10:55am

Kate P wrote: »

I think you've the chronology all wrong there - the caution comes before or instead of a court appearance and plea. It may be that the Probation Act wouldn't be applied if the case was contested but that's an entirely different matter.

But if he pleaded not guilty he probably refused the adult caution.

billyhead · 11-01-2011 10:58am

spurs2010 wrote: »

This may need a thread on its own. I see a lot of references to adult cautions.

I would never ever accept an adult caution ...... If you sign for one it is sent to Garda Vetting and resulted as such that the person the subject of the caution was in trouble and admitted it.

It is not a criminal court conviction but the Commissioner views it as a solved crime so guess what when any prospective employer does a background check what crops up....... you guessed it the adult caution.

Talk to a court solicitor who knows what he's at.;)

I was informed an Adult caution does not show up on a background check

Reloc8 · 11-01-2011 5:42pm

sideways mary wrote: »

I thought the fact that I hadnt any previous convictions or crimes and the fact that the guards said in court that i was very cooperative and apologetic and was just really intoxicated might have helped me but obviously not.

sideways mary wrote: »

I completely admit what i did was wrong, I'll 100% admit to that, it was a completely stupid thing to do and i regret it every day since. J

k_mac wrote: »

But if he pleaded not guilty he probably refused the adult caution.

Fairly obvious having regard to the bit in bold above (and the other stuff but mostly that bit) that he pleaded guilty, I would think.