Car free Dublin City Centre?

tomasrojo · 29-07-2015 10:55am

Or get caught in the spokes, as happened to a guy I was in college with (though he was a kid when that happened). He still has small bits of gravel under his scalp from the outcome of that.

(Good point. I'm not thinking of things actually designed for carrying on handlebars.)

mcgratheoin · 29-07-2015 11:00am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

40km round trip, so 20k each way is at a moderate pace less than an hour by bicycle, so probably the same or longer by private car..

I do a 40k round trip every day by bike from Leixlip area. It is without doubt the quickest mode of transport for me. Even though I live within a mile from Confey train station and work within a mile of Grand Canal Dock, there is no way to do the commute by public transport in under an hour. It's a 15 minute walk (minimum) , crowded train to Pearse, wait for DART to G Canal and then walk from there. Forget about driving into the city centre or parking once in there, my wife drove into town one day and I beat her home by half an hour on the bike!
I can do the cycle in anything from 45 minutes to an hour depending on weather/fitness/traffic lights/willingness to sweat etc.. and it saves me €5.74 a day which works out at nearly €30 a week or over €1000 per year.

tomasrojo · 29-07-2015 11:10am

The 40km round trips are very doable if you're fit, but I think the proponents of the changes in the city centre are really thinking (primarily) of journeys under 5km, since they are very doable and make up most journeys done by car (or a very large minority).

rp · 29-07-2015 11:15am

tomasrojo wrote: »

The 40km round trips are very doable if you're fit

And if you're not fit, you soon will be.

mcgratheoin · 29-07-2015 11:56am

tomasrojo wrote: »

The 40km round trips are very doable if you're fit, but I think the proponents of the changes in the city centre are really thinking (primarily) of journeys under 5km, since they are very doable and make up most journeys done by car (or a very large minority).

Absolutely - i was just making the point that opposition to the changes on the grounds that it will delay through city transit times are not (for me) deal breakers at all, I would struggle to identify a journey inside the M50 that is presently quicker by car than bike at rush hour but will be significantly impacted by these changes. Anything outside or close to the M50 makes that the obvious route choice.
I would think that <5k journeys (the quays in Dublin are ~5k long as a good estimate) could also be facilitated by a further expansion of the Dublin Bikes scheme.

del_boy13 · 29-07-2015 1:06pm

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Absolutely - i was just making the point that opposition to the changes on the grounds that it will delay through city transit times are not (for me) deal breakers at all, I would struggle to identify a journey inside the M50 that is presently quicker by car than bike at rush hour but will be significantly impacted by these changes. Anything outside or close to the M50 makes that the obvious route choice.
I would think that <5k journeys (the quays in Dublin are ~5k long as a good estimate) could also be facilitated by a further expansion of the Dublin Bikes scheme.

Not so sure I agree with the M50 being the best option. I live in Swords and work in Sandyford. Time by bike is between 50-60 minutes over and back through the city centre. In summer driving is usually around the 35-45 minute mark. So no major difference. The cost saving is massive though no tolls €4.20 per day plus petrol in my car costs another €5 and thats if I am moving.

In the winter when the traffic is heavier I might add 5 minutes to the commute but its nothing compared to the extra 30-40 minutes of traffic.

I appreciate that it suits me and for others 20k + through the city centre is daunting.

Leroy42 · 29-07-2015 1:25pm

del_boy13 wrote: »

I appreciate that it suits me and for others 20k + through the city centre is daunting.

Not so daunting if they make if more cycle friendly, as in remove a lot of the vehicular traffic.

That is the mistake people are making when they look at this, and many other, ideas. They try to work out how the current situation would exist within the new system, rather than looking at what could happen because of the new system.

If this was to go ahead, the city centre part of the cycle would actually be the easiest.

Tenzor07 · 29-07-2015 1:59pm

del_boy13 wrote: »

Not so sure I agree with the M50 being the best option. I live in Swords and work in Sandyford. Time by bike is between 50-60 minutes over and back through the city centre. In summer driving is usually around the 35-45 minute mark. So no major difference. The cost saving is massive though no tolls €4.20 per day plus petrol in my car costs another €5 and thats if I am moving.

In the winter when the traffic is heavier I might add 5 minutes to the commute but its nothing compared to the extra 30-40 minutes of traffic.

I appreciate that it suits me and for others 20k + through the city centre is daunting.

I'd say you are quoting the best possible M50 commuting times(at the 100kph limit of course!;), there was hardly a morning or evening when there wasn't some sort of collision or incident on the M50. Used to take me 50mins to 1 1/2hrs to get from the start of the M50 to exit 12 southbound, and same going back.
The cycle never took more than 45 to 50mins depending on wind direction.

Getting through city centre was the best part on a bike, moving past cars on Macken street in particular, where once took me 40mins to drive down!

mcgratheoin · 29-07-2015 3:59pm

del_boy13 wrote: »

Not so sure I agree with the M50 being the best option.

I meant M50 as distinct from driving through the city, not in comparison to cycling. I was just making the point that if your commute was anything like Swords to Santry, then driving time wouldn't be affected by these new rules. If it's anything shorter (e.g. Phibsboro to Dundrum), cycling would be waay quicker regardless of any new traffic restrictions.

Hmmzis · 29-07-2015 4:14pm

rp wrote: »

And if you're not fit, you soon will be.

+1 I've heard a lot of people telling the excuse of "but you have to be fit to commute on a bike". Which if course is just that, an excuse with no basis in reality. Fitness is a consequence of cycling, not a requirement.

tomasrojo · 29-07-2015 4:37pm

Obviously, some people have underlying health issues that rule out cycling even trivial distances.

Muahahaha · 29-07-2015 4:56pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

The 40km round trips are very doable if you're fit, but I think the proponents of the changes in the city centre are really thinking (primarily) of journeys under 5km, since they are very doable and make up most journeys done by car (or a very large minority).

IMO any journey of 10km or less can be done quicker that bicycle than it can be by Dublin Bus or driving. My own route is 9km to the city centre and I can cover it in 25-28 minutes most days, which is a tad faster than the bus service outside my door which takes 30-35 minutes to do the same trip. I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the city but my guess is that traffic has now got so slow in Dublin that a journey between any location inside the m50 to the city centre can be done quicker on a bicycle than by public transport. It's not that hard to maintain an average speed on a bike of 20kmph whereas the last surverys showed Dublin Bus average journey speeds at 16kmph, and thats with them having the ability to skip traffic in the bus lanes.

monument · 29-07-2015 5:03pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

IMO any journey of 10km or less can be done quicker that bicycle than it can be by Dublin Bus or driving. My own route is 9km to the city centre and I can cover it in 25-28 minutes most days, which is a tad faster than the bus service outside my door which takes 30-35 minutes to do the same trip. I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the city but my guess is that traffic has now got so slow in Dublin that a journey between any location inside the m50 to the city centre can be done quicker on a bicycle than by public transport. It's not that hard to maintain an average speed on a bike of 20kmph whereas the last surverys showed Dublin Bus average journey speeds at 16kmph, and thats with them having the ability to skip traffic in the bus lanes.

In 2006, inside the Dublin canals, it was 12 km/h for bicycles compared to 15km/h for cars. For trips within the M50, it was 14km/h on bikes compared to 18km/h for cars.

That's based on distance and average travel times from the Cencus, but I'm unsure how reliable it is given how people are poor at estimating both measures.

http://irishcycle.com/myths/myths-speed/

Icepick · 29-07-2015 5:30pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Obviously, some people have underlying health issues that rule out cycling even trivial distances.

laziness is not a health issue

Qualitymark · 29-07-2015 5:41pm

del_boy13 wrote: »

Not so sure I agree with the M50 being the best option. I live in Swords and work in Sandyford. Time by bike is between 50-60 minutes over and back through the city centre. In summer driving is usually around the 35-45 minute mark. So no major difference. The cost saving is massive though no tolls €4.20 per day plus petrol in my car costs another €5 and thats if I am moving.

And also the basic costs of the car: insurance, tax, NCT, repayments if on a loan, annual checkup, tyres, inevitable bits that have to be fixed…

You do have the occasional fixie-uppy with a bike, but there's no comparison.

tomasrojo · 29-07-2015 7:16pm

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/29/arnotts-ceo-rallies-businesses-against-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/

Before joining Arnotts in 2010, Hernan was chief financial officer of Brown Thomas, a company which has a history of predicting the death of city centre retailers over transport projects.

He'd have been there at the time the Bus Gate caused Brown Thomas to close down and lay off all its staff, I guess?

rp · 29-07-2015 7:46pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/29/arnotts-ceo-rallies-businesses-against-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/

He'd have been there at the time the Bus Gate caused Brown Thomas to close down and lay off all its staff, I guess?

He might find this interesting, then:

“Many people who lived in the old neighbourhoods were enthusiastic about our ideas. They saw we were changing things on a great scale. But there was also fierce opposition, especially from businessmen and shopkeepers who were convinced it would mean the end of their business if cars could no longer cross the centre. We tried to explain that we wanted to create a pleasant urban environment that eventually would attract more people to the centre and to their shops. But they were convinced they would go bankrupt if customers would not be able reach their shop by car,” says Van den Berg. “In the end, it turned out they were wrong.”

http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world

rp · 30-07-2015 6:40pm

We've until the 7th of August to get our spake in, on this:
https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/transport-study-consultation

tomasrojo · 30-07-2015 6:54pm

Also this petition from Rothar:

"Dublin City Council: We support a pedestrian and cycling space in Dublin City Centre as outlined in the Transport Plan."

http://www.change.org/p/dublin-city-council-we-support-a-pedestrian-and-cycling-space-in-dublin-city-centre-as-outlined-in-the-transport-plan

L'Enfer du Nord · 30-07-2015 11:37pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/29/arnotts-ceo-rallies-businesses-against-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/

He'd have been there at the time the Bus Gate caused Brown Thomas to close down and lay off all its staff, I guess?

Funnily enough even though I live in Dublin 2 I don't shop in the Henry Street area as much as I might like to because A)Its hard to get to because of traffic and one way systems(designed for cars)B) There's no where safe to park my bike (like the Dury Street bike Park on the Southside). I cycled into Arnott's car park only last week to see if it was possible to park my bike in there, but no definitly not. Also Store Street Gardai station has signs in front of it saying you can't park a bike there.

Dublin needs a North South cycling axis! At the very least.

manafana · 31-07-2015 11:33am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Probably not that many, personally I just go to a retail park because the parking is free and theres less hassle getting there and back. My guess is that the opposition to a pedestrian and cycle friendly city centre is from the likes of Brown Thomas and similar high end businesses. If I were the CEO of BT's I'd be going mad over these plans- customers of BTs spend a lot of money per head coming in the door and the management there would be keenly aware that the type of customer who spends big bucks there will never take public transport or cycle- these people are not the type who would drop €2000 on some clothes and then get the bus home. They are a pedestrian only in the sense that they walk from the BT car park into the store itself.

I can understand the Brown Thomas position but certainly dont agree with it. As the city centre gets more and more squashed and congested we have to ask ourselves are we going to make policies that reflect the needs of the vast majority of the citys population or are we going to make policies that suit the less than 3% of the population that can afford to drop megabucks in BT's but refuse to do so unless they can get in and out by car (or Chelsea tractor?)

maybe they won't cycle, maybe they won't use the bus or luas, but likely they will pick up a taxi or park a car just a little further away, if your willing drop 2k on a bag, you probably won't care about paying for a taxi. But it might just get to some who drive because its the easy way rather than the best way and this can change mentality. In Netherlands the city centres are thriving, cycle the beater in wherever you want no congestion getting in find somewhere to park it (some issues with parking) and just enjoy the city.

Undercover Elephant · 31-07-2015 11:41am

Statistically, the higher income group you are in, the more likely you are to cycle. Course, that doesn't count those spending other people's money.

manafana · 31-07-2015 11:56am

Leroy42 wrote: »

This is a good video of Chris Boardman in Utrecht.

Seems like it can be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDLb6biq39A

that video is really well done, great example of why this will work in long run

magicbastarder · 31-07-2015 2:15pm

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Statistically, the higher income group you are in, the more likely you are to cycle.

and the more you earn, the cheaper the cycle to work scheme becomes, so it's regressive in that sense.

Leroy42 · 31-07-2015 2:50pm

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Statistically, the higher income group you are in, the more likely you are to cycle. Course, that doesn't count those spending other people's money.

Is this true? Are we talking cycling in general? What is the reasoning behind this? Is it that lower incomes group use public transport more, or cars more or what?

tomasrojo · 31-07-2015 2:59pm

I think it's mostly that more well-off people aren't as concerned that others think they are poor. They might be status-obsessed in other ways, but they know people don't think they are poor.

Judging from working-class neighbourhoods I know, the levels of adult cycling are definitely lower than in middle-class neighbourhoods.

Undercover Elephant · 31-07-2015 3:03pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Is this true? Are we talking cycling in general? What is the reasoning behind this? Is it that lower incomes group use public transport more, or cars more or what?

Yes, I'll try to dig out the studies when I'm back at my computer. I don't recall any of them having a proper look at the reasons, nor whether it applies if you take out leisure-only cyclists.

Undercover Elephant · 31-07-2015 3:07pm

It's also true that higher income groups are more likely to exercise, so it wouldn't be a surprise if more people from those groups did so on a bike.

It used to be that poor = thin and rich = fat. Now it's the other way around. The revolution is complete! What? Oh.

Tenzor07 · 31-07-2015 7:36pm

Car traffic free residential areas?

This looks very promising: http://jrnl.ie/2247109

Qualitymark · 03-08-2015 5:46am

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Statistically, the higher income group you are in, the more likely you are to cycle. Course, that doesn't count those spending other people's money.

Teenagers?

Car free Dublin City Centre?

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