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Abortion Discussion

  • 10-07-2013 1:36pm
    #1
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Followed on from here.

    Normal Charter rules still apply. Attack the post, not the poster.If you have any issue with a particular post please report it. Please be aware that as this is human rights issue people will have very different interpretations on the implementation of those rights. Some of which you may be in strong disagreement with or even find hurtful. Please try to Keep it civil though. It is expected that both sides will be sensitive with the wording they use when putting forward their points to the other side.
    The goal is for each post to be closer to the top of the pyramid.
    2cd98o6.jpg


    Above all a cordial and constructive discussion atmosphere is what's strived for.
    Thanks,


«134567…201

Comments

  • #2
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    IBTL


  • #3
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,815 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    BrownBomber wrote:
    Unhelpful? Accurate.
    Abortion - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ...

    www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abortion‎;
    the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abortion
    1. The removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.
    BrownBomber wrote:
    Close the thread, it's pointless anyway, people just avoid the difficult questions and realities of them supporting this killing. You'll probably censor this to like you have censored accurate descriptions of abortion procedures or anything else that protects the supporters of this killing from their cognitive dissonance.
    The last 5 pages of the thread have been people trying to explain a very simple concept to you, which you have been ignoring

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  • #4
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    28064212 wrote: »
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abortion


    The last 5 pages of the thread have been people trying to explain a very simple concept to you, which you have been ignoring

    Explain another simple concept then.

    What methods of abortion will be carried out in Ireland where the mother wants to end the pregnancy and the foetus isn't rendered lifeless?


  • #5
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    So anywho from the last thread.
    Nutbag anti-choicers apparently picketing the Irish embassy in London this evening for a 4.30pm "candlelit vigil"... so tempting to go troll them

    Took a walk on my break and not much difference here in Dublin outside the Dail.

    je7b.jpg


    pnb2.jpg


  • #6
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Explain another simple concept then.

    What methods of abortion will be carried out in Ireland where the mother wants to end the pregnancy and the foetus isn't rendered lifeless?

    That was already explained in great detail. Perhaps you have the posters who explained it on ignore? Because you seem to be the only one here who has failed to grasp it. But I'm sure you wouldn't do something silly like filter out voices and opinions you just don't like.


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  • #7
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Do you have a problem with peaceful protestors?


  • #8
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,815 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Explain another simple concept then.

    What methods of abortion will be carried out in Ireland where the mother wants to end the pregnancy and the foetus isn't rendered lifeless?
    Hypothetically? Under the new legislation? If a suicidal woman presented at 30 weeks where the termination of the pregnancy was in her best interests, the baby would be delivered

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  • #9
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Do you have a problem with peaceful protestors?

    Please show me where i said i have a problem with peaceful protestors.


  • #10
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Do you have a problem with peaceful protestors?

    Depends. If they wave a placard in my face or spout lies and use the word "murder" I have a definite problem with them. Sadly, the pro-life lot have form for such things.


  • #11
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Sarky wrote: »
    That was already explained in great detail. Perhaps you have the posters who explained it on ignore? Because you seem to be the only one here who has failed to grasp it. But I'm sure you wouldn't do something silly like filter out voices and opinions you just don't like.

    So what is this method called then that has been explained where the Irish mother will go in for an abortion to end her pregnancy for "mental health" reasons and the foetus doesn't die?


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  • #12
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    So what is this method called then that has been explained where the Irish mother will go in for an abortion to end her pregnancy for "mental health" reasons and the foetus doesn't die?

    Birth.


  • #13
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Birth.

    really wish i could thank this more than once:)


  • #14
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Please show me where i said i have a problem with peaceful protestors.
    #9818
    Put a couple of water filled paddling pools next to the pro lifers....give it 5 minutes there will be a gang of 60 drunken, lobster coloured, scobie scrotes jumping into them and screaming abuse at the pro lifers. Hopefully they knock 7 shades of ****e out of each other and we can be rid of 2 useless drains on society for a couple of weeks while they recuperate in one fell swoop biggrin.png

    Not only do you have a problem with them you wish violence on them.


  • #15
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,071 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Birth.

    Love it :D


  • #16
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    28064212 wrote: »
    Hypothetically? Under the new legislation? If a suicidal woman presented at 30 weeks where the termination of the pregnancy was in her best interests, the baby would be delivered
    Thank you.

    Now what happens before 30 weeks and also to the delivered baby?


  • #17
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    #9818


    Not only do you have a problem with them you wish violence on them.

    That's not having a problem with them that's just a hypothetical situation (you know the way you have used many times in the last thread) that i think would be funny to see. As long as said protesters are peaceful then i wish them all the best. The moment they start shoving things in peoples faces and screaming abuse at people they have moved beyond peaceful and ergo deserve whatever consequences befall them.

    Do you mind if we get back on topic now?:rolleyes:


  • #18
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Thank you.

    Now what happens before 30 weeks and also to the delivered baby?

    You know, things would go a lot faster if you didn't insist on a separate answer for what happens to a foetus for every damn day of its existence. Have you tried grouping things together? "What happens to a foetus between 25-30 weeks?" will save a whole lot of time and look far less bloody ridiculous than your current line of badgering.


  • #19
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    Brown Bomber wrote:
    pClose the thread, it's pointless anyway, people just avoid the difficult questions and realities of them supporting this killing. You'll probably censor this to like you have censored accurate descriptions of abortion procedures or anything else that protects the supporters of this killing from their cognitive dissonance.

    No ones avoided difficult questions BB, we have however noticed a recurring them throughout your hypothetical scenarios. As you have been told by oldrnwisr, most abortions take place before 12 weeks with approx 1-2% occurring in the timeframe that you have been obsessing over. Yet you have posted scenarios that have such little credibility that one would have to wonder at the underlying attitude that prompted their posting. Off the top of my head there's the having a late term abortion cos the woman's going off to Oz with her friends, having an abortion like returning a pair of shoes and being unable to understand that one woman raising a kid with hydrocephalus is a choice, not a law or moral obligation.

    The only argument I can see for your scenarios is purely based on possibilities i.e. the set of all possibilities (however illogical) would include your scenarios. However the probability of them occurring would be so low that to continually fixate on worst-case possibilities, all of which cast negative aspersions on women, is either a red herring or a case of misogynistic slut shaming. The only dissonance is yours in ignoring all the explanations given to you including the brilliantly helpful ones from oldrnwisr.


  • #20
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,815 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Thank you.

    Now what happens before 30 weeks and also to the delivered baby?
    I'll combine both answers into one: If it's viable, it lives, if it's not, it dies

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  • #21
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,986 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Thank you.

    Now what happens before 30 weeks and also to the delivered baby?

    Nothing yet. The legislation hasn't been signed into law by President Michael D Higgins. Nice to see the gestation is proceeding along peaceably.


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  • #22
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Thank you.

    Now what happens before 30 weeks and also to the delivered baby?

    There's going to be grey areas no matter what you do. So why not go down to X weeks, Y Days, Z hrs, S, seconds, P Picoseconds?

    It's the same for social welfare assistance thresholds, taxation thresholds, age limits, etc. Does someone who turns 18 magically become mature for their own decisions? Does someone 1 cent over the Medical Card threshold who's having health issues really deserve being denied access?

    Unfortunately, in everything you got to draw a line in the sand somewhere. Yes, there will be exceptions and as such a case by case basis would be the ideal outcome. But that's not always practical to implement and as long as you have a law there's going to be grey areas.
    No law will ever be perfect.


  • #23
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Anyone else find it hilarious that the guy carrying a placard with a YD logo on it in the 2nd image looks to be in his 70s?


  • #24
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Thank you.

    Now what happens before 30 weeks and also to the delivered baby?

    You seem to have latched on to this notion that an "abortion procedure" is a procedure to try and kill the foetus come hell or high water, and the idea that if a foetus survived the removal procedure and the termination of pregnancy and is viable it will be killed anyway because you think the purpose of the abortion procedure is to get rid of the baby or the mother doesn't have to worry about it rather than simply remove it from the woman's womb.

    Instead of asking everyone else to prove to your satisfaction that this isn't the case, perhaps it would be easier if you just explain where they hell you go that idea from in the first place.


  • #25
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    bumper234 wrote: »
    That's not having a problem with them that's just a hypothetical situation (you know the way you have used many times in the last thread) that i think would be funny to see. As long as said protesters are peaceful then i wish them all the best. The moment they start shoving things in peoples faces and screaming abuse at people they have moved beyond peaceful and ergo deserve whatever consequences befall them.

    If it came to blows there'd be heart attacks and dislocated hips all over the shop. Not that it will, they'll just sit around talking about how the weather's great and how they don't understand the young people today with their googles and their ebays.


  • #26
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Sarky wrote: »
    If it came to blows there'd be heart attacks and dislocated hips all over the shop. Not that it will, they'll just sit around talking about how the weather's great and how they don't understand the young people today with their googles and their ebays.

    In before BB accuses you of blatant ageism and and and.....something something dark side:)


  • #27
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    IT-Guy wrote: »
    No ones avoided difficult questions BB,....
    (... but now I will make an attempt to explain why we do avoid the difficult question that doesn't involve accepting the horrendous realities)


  • #28
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    bumper234 wrote: »
    That's not having a problem with them that's just a hypothetical situation (you know the way you have used many times in the last thread) that i think would be funny to see. As long as said protesters are peaceful then i wish them all the best. The moment they start shoving things in peoples faces and screaming abuse at people they have moved beyond peaceful and ergo deserve whatever consequences befall them.

    Do you mind if we get back on topic now?:rolleyes:

    So you think it would be "funny" to see peaceful protestors attacked as well as wishing violence on them for peacefully protesting.


  • #29
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    28064212 wrote: »
    I'll combine both answers into one: If it's viable, it lives, if it's not, it dies

    Explain the sceario where an Irish woman at 24 weeks pregnant claims to be feeling suicidal and is booked in for an abortion and the foetus/newborn becomes viable post-abortion.

    Explain the actual procedure that enables this to happen.


  • #30
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,847 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Explain the sceario where an Irish woman at 24 weeks pregnant claims to be feeling suicidal and is booked in for an abortion and the foetus/newborn becomes viable post-abortion.

    Explain the actual procedure that enables this to happen.
    :confused:
    Viability would surely be determined pre-abortion?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #31
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Explain the sceario where an Irish woman at 24 weeks pregnant claims to be feeling suicidal and is booked in for an abortion and the foetus/newborn becomes viable post-abortion.

    Explain the actual procedure that enables this to happen.

    What?


  • #32
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Explain the sceario where an Irish woman at 24 weeks pregnant claims to be feeling suicidal and is booked in for an abortion and the foetus/newborn becomes viable post-abortion.

    Explain the actual procedure that enables this to happen.

    I think "F*CKING MAGIC, YO" is the most viable way for that scenario to occur.


  • #33
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    bumper234 wrote:
    The moment they start shoving things in peoples faces and screaming abuse at people they have moved beyond peaceful and ergo deserve whatever consequences befall them.
    I hope and presume that you're referring to "legal consequences" -- anything other than that is considered unhelpful and may well be subject to moderator action.


  • #34
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    (... but now I will make an attempt to explain why we do avoid the difficult question that doesn't involve accepting the horrendous realities)

    Care to back up these horrendous realities with some stats? How many women have listed the reasons for their abortion as 'going on hols...lol', 'wrong size, here's my receipt' oh and let's not forget the scenario of 'racist lady has one night stand with a black man and doesn't want a mixed-race baby cos she's racist'. Honestly, you couldn't make this s**t up!


  • #35
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Explain the sceario where an Irish woman at 24 weeks pregnant claims to be feeling suicidal and is booked in for an abortion and the foetus/newborn becomes viable post-abortion.

    Explain the actual procedure that enables this to happen.

    I don't know if anyone here can describe the process in detail as we are not, as far as I know, doctors of neonatal medicine. I suggest finding someone who is and directing your questions about the minutiae of procedures towards them.


  • #36
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,815 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Explain the sceario where an Irish woman at 24 weeks pregnant claims to be feeling suicidal and is booked in for an abortion and the foetus/newborn becomes viable post-abortion.

    Explain the actual procedure that enables this to happen.
    The same way it would happen with a woman who's life is threatened by a physical illness from a pregnancy. The 8th Amendment is still in force. The Supreme Court judgement is still in force. The only thing this legislation changes is to give force to the suicidal clause, and protect the doctors who have to actually make the decision

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  • #37
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Zombrex wrote: »
    You seem to have latched on to this notion that an "abortion procedure" is a procedure to try and kill the foetus come hell or high water, and the idea that if a foetus survived the removal procedure and the termination of pregnancy and is viable it will be killed anyway because you think the purpose of the abortion procedure is to get rid of the baby or the mother doesn't have to worry about it rather than simply remove it from the woman's womb.

    Instead of asking everyone else to prove to your satisfaction that this isn't the case, perhaps it would be easier if you just explain where they hell you go that idea from in the first place.
    .
    THE Health Department is investigating the cases of 14 babies left to die after surviving abortion attempts.

     From July 1999 to June 2010 there were 14 cases of post-20http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=85463978-week abortion procedures resulting in the live birth of a child. At least one of the babies was born after 26 weeks gestation.
    In all of the cases, no treatment or resuscitation attempts for the babies were recorded by the hospital.
    Labor MPs Ed Dermer and Kate Doust have called for a parliamentary inquiry into the deaths and hospital guidelines that say the babies should not have been given medical care or a chance at life. http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/could-14-babies-be-alive-today/story-e6frg153-1226315339013?sv=c34a88b5ee4c5c8960f208791ca1f4d9
    66 babies in a year left to die after NHS abortions that go wrong

    By BEEZY MARSH
    Last updated at 15:55 04 February 2008

    Botched abortions mean that scores of babies are being born alive and left to die, an official report has revealed.
    A total of 66 infants survived NHS termination attempts in one year alone, it emerged.
    Rather than dying at birth as was intended, they were able to breathe unaided. About half were alive for an hour, while one survived ten hours.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-512129/66-babies-year-left-die-NHS-abortions-wrong.html#ixzz2YeMGPObY
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


  • #38
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Doctoremma went through the procedures in fairly good detail in a post in the previous thread. Will see if I can find it. :)


  • #39
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    So you think it would be "funny" to see peaceful protestors attacked as well as wishing violence on them for peacefully protesting.

    Again stop ****ing twisting words to fit your own sick agenda. Show me where i said i think it would be funny to see PEACEFUL protesters attacked as well as wishing violence on them for peacefully protesting.


  • #40
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    28064212 wrote: »
    The same way it would happen with a woman who's life is threatened by a physical illness from a pregnancy.
    Which is what?

    Again, what is the realistic scenario where a 24 week foetus, which could potentially survive outside the womb survives an abortion. What is the abortion method that occurs that makes this likely?


  • #41
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    So is all this good weather a sign from God that he supports this legislation?


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  • #42
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Sarky wrote: »
    I think "F*CKING MAGIC, YO" is the most viable way for that scenario to occur.

    Dang, my first guess was "JESUS!", but now you mention it ...


  • #43
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    robindch wrote: »
    I hope and presume that you're referring to "legal consequences" -- anything other than that is considered unhelpful and may well be subject to moderator action.

    Oh of course sir ;)


  • #44
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    .

    We have the NHS in Ireland now????

    Oh...we don't. In Ireland we prefer women to die before allowing them a termination. That's soooo much better.


  • #45
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,815 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Which is what?

    Again, what is the realistic scenario where a 24 week foetus, which could potentially survive outside the womb survives an abortion. What is the abortion method that occurs that makes this likely?
    Caesarean or delivery would be my guess. Again, the doctors have the responsibility to do everything they can to save the child. Which has been explained to you multiple times. So instead of asking leading questions and posing hypotheticals that change from post to post, why don't you actually state what you think is going to happen, and what you have a problem with?

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  • #46
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    We have the NHS in Ireland now????

    Oh...we don't. In Ireland we prefer women to die before allowing them a termination. That's soooo much better.

    Ah yes but at least that nice brown woman is now in heaven with the one true god right?:rolleyes:


  • #47
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    IT-Guy wrote: »
    Care to back up these horrendous realities with some stats? How many women have listed the reasons for their abortion as 'going on hols...lol', 'wrong size, here's my receipt' oh and let's not forget the scenario of 'racist lady has one night stand with a black man and doesn't want a mixed-race baby cos she's racist'. Honestly, you couldn't make this s**t up!

    Straw men argument is clutching at straws. :rolleyes:


  • #48
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    IT-Guy wrote: »
    Care to back up these horrendous realities with some stats? How many women have listed the reasons for their abortion as 'going on hols...lol', 'wrong size, here's my receipt' oh and let's not forget the scenario of 'racist lady has one night stand with a black man and doesn't want a mixed-race baby cos she's racist'. Honestly, you couldn't make this s**t up!

    I bet someone could :pac:


  • #49
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    old hippy wrote: »
    Straw men argument is clutching at straws. :rolleyes:


    Not really.

    BB has used those scenarios as to why a woman might "choose" to have an abortion:eek:


  • #50
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Ah yes but at least that nice brown woman is now in heaven with the one true god right?:rolleyes:

    Doubt it - she was Hindu but presumably heard about Jesus - hard not to living in Galway- and rejected the idea of him as her saviour so it's Hell for her.


  • #51
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Doubt it - she was Hindu but presumably heard about Jesus - hard not to living in Galway- and rejected the idea of him as her saviour so it's Hell for her.

    Right so i'll see her there :)


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