Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

MetroLinker · 15-10-2018 12:10pm

Dats me wrote: »

How do we know about the Single Bore? And if they're doing Single, why not use the monotube option? Seemed to be what the study recommended.

I think their first recommendation was 'Twin Bore Option 1A, 1B and 1C' and then their second recommendation was 'Single Bore Twin Track (side by side) Option 2B and 2D'. Third recommendation was 'Single Bore Twin Track (Monotube) Option 4'.

You can see the cost estimates below from the tunnel configuration study:

From a back of envelope calculation, you'd need four times as many shallow stations (option 2b) as deep stations (option 2d) for the single bore twin track side-by-side system before you'd be most cost effective than monotube stations(option 4). I can't find a breakdown of the different station type requirements though.

Dats me · 15-10-2018 12:52pm

Yeah that's the study I was looking at, maths make sense and I guess they feel they can smooth things over with Tara Street residents like yourselves (or maybe they already have and the landlords just don't care about the tenants?) .

Interesting thing from that is if we allow €100m per km and station box, and say the route is 18km (26km less 8km for Green Line Charlemont to Sandyford) that's only €1.8bn. Seems very reasonable, I guess tracks, signalling, rolling stock, ticketing machines, screen doors etc. add the rest + the huge planning cost but you'd wonder how DART Underground at 7km couldn't get itself back on the agenda.

MetroLinker · 15-10-2018 5:07pm

Dats me wrote: »

if we allow €100m per km and station box.

€100m per km of tunnel but also another €100m per station box which would bring up your figure a bit.

I found a blog from 2013 with some Crossrail 2 figures: http://ukrail.blogspot.com/2013/08/crossrail-2-cost-breakdown.html

Dats me · 15-10-2018 8:33pm

MetroLinker wrote: »

€100m per km of tunnel but also another €100m per station box which would bring up your figure a bit.

No the prices in your graphic are for 1km of tunnel + a station and portal costs averaged out, this is a quote from the paragraph preceding the table:

"Costs presented below are direct costs and allow for tunnel, station, portals all adjusted for 1km
of tunnel and one station."

Those crossrail costs do seem huge, but the platforms for that project are 240m I guess.

MetroLinker · 15-10-2018 9:45pm

I hadn't seen that comment - I found the table in Appendix K of the Tunnel Configuration but it must be referenced somewhere else as well.

You're right though - at those prices, Dart Underground does seem like it should come back on the table again. Baby steps...

Dats me · 15-10-2018 10:06pm

MetroLinker wrote: »

I hadn't seen that comment - I found the table in Appendix K of the Tunnel Configuration but it must be referenced somewhere else as well.

You're right though - at those prices, Dart Underground does seem like it should come back on the table again. Baby steps...

It's so sad how little our politicians care about climate change or even just the increase in quality of life that proper public transport infrastructure can create.

bk · 15-10-2018 11:46pm

MetroLinker wrote: »

You're right though - at those prices, Dart Underground does seem like it should come back on the table again. Baby steps...

I agree we should definitely being doing DU too. Though the costing of DU would be closer to the Crossrail costings above, rather then Metro.

DU will need 200 meter station boxes similar to Crossrail versus 100m of Metrolink and the whole heavy rail versus light rail, which tends to drive up costs too.

sea12 · 16-10-2018 10:13pm

Any indication of when the preferred route will be revealed.

marno21 · 16-10-2018 10:15pm

sea12 wrote: »

Any indication of when the preferred route will be revealed.

It's overdue at this stage so likely sometime soon

VonZan · 16-10-2018 10:24pm

sea12 wrote: »

Any indication of when the preferred route will be revealed.

Probably in 5 years at the current pace the NTA are moving at.

marno21 · 17-10-2018 12:34am

VonZan wrote: »

Probably in 5 years at the current pace the NTA are moving at.

I would imagine the NTA would prefer to be adequately resourced especially with the volume of political interference they have to deal wirh

lateconnection · 17-10-2018 3:45pm

Saw some engineers out using laser level equipment today between Cowper and Milltown. They were also around Cowper last week. I am guessing (could be wrong) that their work is related to Metrolink design.

VonZan · 17-10-2018 11:38pm

marno21 wrote: »

I would imagine the NTA would prefer to be adequately resourced especially with the volume of political interference they have to deal wirh

How would you adequately resource the NTA? What political interference are you referring to? The NTA are a complete shambles.

Idbatterim · 17-10-2018 11:55pm

The next recession will have hit before the bloody final route is chosen!

CatInABox · 18-10-2018 10:33am

VonZan wrote: »

How would you adequately resource the NTA? What political interference are you referring to? The NTA are a complete shambles.

Well, filling the many, many positions that the NTA have said were urgently required would be a start.

Perhaps if that was done, the NTA might not be such a shambles?

CatInABox · 18-10-2018 10:45am

Idbatterim wrote: »

The next recession will have hit before the bloody final route is chosen!

It's not like the NTA aren't busy right now. They're short staffed as it is, and are currently running these projects:

Dart 10 Minute schedule (they'll need to fix this one up, loads of issues with it, might not happen until Dart Expansion below)
BusConnects (Extended public consultation over, collation beginning)
BusConnects Core Corridors (Public Consultation about to begin)
Luas Expansion (the purchase of new trams, and the extension of old trams)
MetroLink (Soon to publish final route and design)
Dart Expansion (Purchasing new rolling stock, electrification of several lines, new stations)

That's not even all of what they're doing, I haven't even touched on BAU at all, nor any of the many road projects they've got going on, and all of the above are just Dublin only.

Not saying they're perfect, or doing a great job or anything, but to complain that an under resourced agency is slow without noting the amount of work that they are currently trying to get through is a bit unfair.

*I typed all that out, and then realised that you never mentioned the NTA, so you could be complaining about the government not adequately supporting them, so..... in that case, sorry! Having typed it all out, I'll leave it, as some here seem to think that because one project isn't progressing as fast as we'd all like, that the NTA are sitting on their collective holes.

Kevtherev1 · 18-10-2018 9:24pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

The next recession will have hit before the bloody final route is chosen!

I reckon the NTA are terrified of public opinion. Terrified of the Nimby mob with preferred route not being really different from the emerging route.

Hence the long delay in not coming out with the new route, it like they NTA are trying to buy time.

Peregrine · 18-10-2018 9:39pm

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

I reckon the NTA are terrified of public opinion. Terrified of the Nimby mob with preferred route not being really different from the emerging route.

Hence the long delay in not coming out with the new route, it like they NTA are trying to buy time.

That's just conjecture.

Their staff shortages are well documented.

Van.Bosch · 18-10-2018 11:34pm

VonZan wrote: »

How would you adequately resource the NTA? What political interference are you referring to? The NTA are a complete shambles.

How are the NTA a shambles? They have done good work but recessions or politics have scuppered DU & metro to date.

cgcsb · 19-10-2018 11:01am

The NTA are the most competent public body we've had in this state to date (not saying much I know). but if you're gonna trash talk an organisation run by the government, there are much more accessible targets. If the revised metro route is a month late and bus connects implementation is pushed back by only 3 months. That is a monumental achievement, worthy of even German public service.

The 90 minute, multimodal fare is now likely to be brought in BEFORE bus connects. But nobody will point to that as beating a deadline, negative press is good press.

dRNk SAnTA · 19-10-2018 12:03pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The NTA are the most competent public body we've had in this state to date (not saying much I know). but if you're gonna trash talk an organisation run by the government, there are much more accessible targets. If the revised metro route is a month late and bus connects implementation is pushed back by only 3 months. That is a monumental achievement, worthy of even German public service.

The 90 minute, multimodal fare is now likely to be brought in BEFORE bus connects. But nobody will point to that as beating a deadline, negative press is good press.

I agree, the NTA seem to have kicked it up a gear over the past 18 months. They have some major projects moving through the pipeline.

My one criticism is that their public communication is poor - they should be outlining a vision that the press can write about, and defending against the regular criticism and misinformation.

Anne Graham is rarely heard from.

marno21 · 21-10-2018 5:28pm

The repulsive hyperbole driven NIMBYism in Ranelagh is continuing I see

https://twitter.com/RMetrolink

Are these people fools or what? Ranelagh is one of the areas along the Luas line that stands to benefit the most from Metrolink. If Metrolink isn't built then they face being left on the platform at Luas stops within the next 10 years.

This sort of carry on really is baffling.

Zebra3 · 21-10-2018 6:23pm

marno21 wrote: »

The repulsive hyperbole driven NIMBYism in Ranelagh is continuing I see

https://twitter.com/RMetrolink

Are these people fools or what? Ranelagh is one of the areas along the Luas line that stands to benefit the most from Metrolink. If Metrolink isn't built then they face being left on the platform at Luas stops within the next 10 years.

This sort of carry on really is baffling.

They should be careful of getting what they wish for.

D.L.R. · 21-10-2018 7:06pm

marno21 wrote: »

The repulsive hyperbole driven NIMBYism in Ranelagh is continuing I see

https://twitter.com/RMetrolink

Are these people fools or what? Ranelagh is one of the areas along the Luas line that stands to benefit the most from Metrolink. If Metrolink isn't built then they face being left on the platform at Luas stops within the next 10 years.

This sort of carry on really is baffling.

Its a handful of people bleating out hysterical garbage like "Berlin Wall", egged on by a few desperate political nonentities.

The vast majority approve of Metrolink and want it to happen.

prunudo · 21-10-2018 9:08pm

Do the people complaining use the Luas or understand the current capacity issues and the increase the new town of Cherrywood and every other development along the route will put on the line or is it a case of how dare other people commute through our neighbourhood.

Conchir · 21-10-2018 9:11pm

jvan wrote: »

Do the people complaining use the Luas or understand the current capacity issues and the increase the new town of Cherrywood and every other development along the route will put on the line or is it a case of how dare other people commute through our neighbourhood.

Looking at some of the retweets on that Rethink Metrolink account, a lot of them are pushing for different routes entirely, so I imagine you're right; they're probably not Luas users at all.

ricimaki · 21-10-2018 9:14pm

They're comparing the metro to the Berlin Wall....
Have they forgotten that the surface-running line is already there...

There's no point in even attempting a reasoned debate with them

Grandeeod · 21-10-2018 11:42pm

And here we go folks. The expected result of reinventing the Metro. Why would anyone expect anything else? Loads more to come guys!

D.L.R. · 21-10-2018 11:51pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

And here we go folks. The expected result of reinventing the Metro. Why would anyone expect anything else? Loads more to come guys!

The green line upgrade is not a reinvention though. It was built with metro in mind.

Grandeeod · 22-10-2018 12:02am

D.L.R. wrote: »

The green line upgrade is not a reinvention though. It was built with metro in mind.

It was built with a little bit of metro in mind. Surely you know the history.:D

MJohnston · 22-10-2018 12:27am

I truly hope they'll all be told to go fúck themselves considering the public consultation ended...*checks notes*...five months ago.

MetroLinker · 22-10-2018 11:11am

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/highprofile-property-developer-johnny-ronan-will-appeal-again-as-tower-plan-is-rejected-37441792.html

DCC rejected the recent resubmission of the tower beside Tara Street

From the article:

Mr Ronan's proposed building is planned to sit on top of Dublin's proposed Metro station.

bk · 22-10-2018 11:23am

MetroLinker wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/highprofile-property-developer-johnny-ronan-will-appeal-again-as-tower-plan-is-rejected-37441792.html

DCC rejected the recent resubmission of the tower beside Tara Street

From the article:

First of all it was ABP who rejected it, not DCC. Second it doesn't effect the Metro in any way.

MJohnston · 22-10-2018 11:44am

bk wrote: »

First of all it was ABP who rejected it, not DCC. Second it doesn't effect the Metro in any way.

No, it was resubmitted after the ABP rejection, and now DCC have rejected this second plan. It'll go to ABP now, though I believe that part was always inevitable.

bk · 22-10-2018 11:58am

MJohnston wrote: »

No, it was resubmitted after the ABP rejection, and now DCC have rejected this second plan. It'll go to ABP now, though I believe that part was always inevitable.

Ah, ok, that is weird and very confusing so!

Jeez, planning in Dublin really is a dumpster fire!

MJohnston · 22-10-2018 12:01pm

They modified it slightly for resubmission, I should say, it wasn't just the same thing again (although not far off). According to rumours, they were only 1 vote shy from winning the ABP appeal, so it might go ahead this time.

Chivito550 · 22-10-2018 1:28pm

I’ve dipped away from the infrastructure forum of late as I found myself getting so frustrated with how backwards we are as a country when it comes to public transport investment. So I haven’t followed the Metro developments for about 4 months, since Na Fianna started throwing toys out of the pram. Can somebody provide an update as to where the project currently stands?

Idbatterim · 22-10-2018 1:33pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

I’ve dipped away from the infrastructure forum of late as I found myself getting so frustrated with how backwards we are as a country when it comes to public transport investment. So I haven’t followed the Metro developments for about 4 months, since Na Fianna started throwing toys out of the pram. Can somebody provide an update as to where the project currently stands?

same here. I don’t even know why we need consultants etc , we have the local resident experts along the line, just let them design and build it ... there is far too much input from gob****es at every level! One of the best things about this project / farce is billions being spent, then penny pinching to save a few percent of the cost and delivering some half assed result. If they are scared by the figures that a game changer project will do and wait another Irish solution, some half assed under capacity solution, simply don’t built it at all ...

MJohnston · 22-10-2018 1:43pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

I’ve dipped away from the infrastructure forum of late as I found myself getting so frustrated with how backwards we are as a country when it comes to public transport investment. So I haven’t followed the Metro developments for about 4 months, since Na Fianna started throwing toys out of the pram. Can somebody provide an update as to where the project currently stands?

No public timeline beyond the one on Metrolink.ie was ever published afaik, so we're still in a waiting phase. Railway order isn't due for another year, so it might be a while before we do hear anything.

prunudo · 22-10-2018 1:51pm

Unfortunately you'll have to prepare to be frustrated further.

Dats me · 22-10-2018 2:18pm

There's a preferred route (update to the emerging preferred route based on public consultation) due out next month according to Eoghan Murphy: http://www.eoghanmurphy.ie/2018/08/31/metro-updated-timelines/ .

NTA dropped the portal at Na Fianna, they seem to be happy now. Residents at the Tara St apartments are unhappy now, hopefully they'll be properly looked after.

Ranelagh are still angry, although a solution to that road at beechwood has been proposed (an over or under pass). Ranelagh want to kill the project altogether so an election now (which there probably will be soon) is not great - hopefully NTA can sort this out before then. While people on this forum are complaining about the delay, I think it's probably a good sign that this stage isn't being rushed and if they can get solutions to these groups problems the thing should go ahead!

Meanwhile there's a lovely "concept engineering document" on the website published in June that goes through rolling stock, stations, throughput, park and ride etc. at a high level.

CatInABox · 22-10-2018 2:50pm

MetroLinker wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/highprofile-property-developer-johnny-ronan-will-appeal-again-as-tower-plan-is-rejected-37441792.html

DCC rejected the recent resubmission of the tower beside Tara Street

From the article:

The article is wrong, his proposal won't have anything to do with the Metro Station. It will, of course, be on top of the tunnel itself, but won't affect the station at all.

markpb · 22-10-2018 2:54pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The article is wrong, his proposal won't have anything to do with the Metro Station. It will, of course, be on top of the tunnel itself, but won't affect the station at all.

What am I missing, the article hardly mentions the station at all?

Mr Ronan's proposed building is planned to sit on top of Dublin's proposed Metro station... It follows the city's recently restated brief for the site, a landmark accommodating fundamental public benefits for station users.

Which bit is wrong?

MJohnston · 22-10-2018 3:12pm

markpb wrote: »

What am I missing, the article hardly mentions the station at all?

Which bit is wrong?

This bit is wrong:

Mr Ronan's proposed building is planned to sit on top of Dublin's proposed Metro station

The station plans clearly show the station is bounded by Poolbeg Street on the north, while Tara House would only occupy the "block" north of Poolbeg Street. There's no overlap.

CatInABox · 22-10-2018 3:20pm

MJohnston wrote: »

This bit is wrong:

The station plans clearly show the station is bounded by Poolbeg Street on the north, while Tara House would only occupy the "block" north of Poolbeg Street. There's no overlap.

Thanks! Saves me going back through the thread to find similar.

MetroLinker · 22-10-2018 3:39pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The station plans clearly show the station is bounded by Poolbeg Street on the north, while Tara House would only occupy the "block" north of Poolbeg Street. There's no overlap.

I thought that they were possibly privy to some new information for the re-submission of the planning application as it would have been completed after the public consultation period rather than what we can see on the Metrolink website.

MJohnston · 22-10-2018 3:42pm

MetroLinker wrote: »

I thought that they were possibly privy to some new information for the re-submission of the planning application as it would have been completed after the public consultation period rather than what we can see on the Metrolink website.

With the Irish press, it's best to assume incompetence rather than investigation.

Kermit.de.frog · 23-10-2018 3:02am

Dats me wrote: »

There's a preferred route (update to the emerging preferred route based on public consultation) due out next month according to Eoghan Murphy: http://www.eoghanmurphy.ie/2018/08/31/metro-updated-timelines/ .

The whole process is too slow.

Another round of public consultations means another round of NIMBY assertions.

Seriously, we need to get our planning system in check and cut out all this fat.

Things need to be done and people just have to get over it. We are too tolerant in this country of individual concerns around major projects.

Kermit.de.frog · 23-10-2018 3:12am

I see they are considering an honor system for ticketing and that there would be no ticket gates in the stations.

I would take issue with that from a security standpoint.

The low level security issues on the Luas red line are well documented but i'm thinking more about terrorism risk (even if the overall risk is very low, it only take one unhinged individual to cause carnage).

I think there should be a proper level of security at stations.

LeinsterDub · 23-10-2018 7:58am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see they are considering an honor system for ticketing and that there would be no ticket gates in the stations.

I would take issue with that from a security standpoint.

The low level security issues on the Luas red line are well documented but i'm thinking more about terrorism risk (even if the overall risk is very low, it only take one unhinged individual to cause carnage).

I think there should be a proper level of security at stations.

Turnstiles aren't going to prevent terrorists

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Comments