Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": HAVE read the books

username123 · 21-04-2014 8:35pm

Interesting article from Nikolaj Coster Waldau on the "rape" scene.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/20/game-of-thrones-most-wtf-sex-scene-nikolaj-coster-waldau-on-jaime-lannister-s-darkest-hour.html

Barna77 · 21-04-2014 9:20pm

NOt liking at all what they've done to Jamie with that rape scene.

And yeah, Littlefinger's accent. Next he'll sound like a trader from Moore St. Lemoncakes Sansa love?

ibarelycare · 21-04-2014 9:58pm

The Master wrote: »

Stand out moment for me............Aidan Gillen débuts another new accent for Littlefinger....

Oh my god he's actually excruciating to listen to. Why has no one talked to him about it?!!!!

Was worried that this episode was going to be a big anti-climax after last week, but really enjoyed it. The scenes with Tywin were fantastic as usual. He's going to be such a big loss

Washington Irving · 21-04-2014 10:06pm

Also, I don't like the new Tommen.

He looks like a slightly younger Joffrey. Thought the previous actor matched the description better, he looked more the 'playing with kittens' type than the 'crossbow through a whore' type.

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 10:11pm

Washington Irving wrote: »

Also, I don't like the new Tommen.

He looks like a slightly older Joffrey. Thought the previous actor matched the description better, he looked more the 'playing with kittens' type than the 'crossbow through a whore' type.

And he's meant to be younger... To be honest I think he's okay. Loving new Daario, the last one looked like Barbie.

pookiesboo · 21-04-2014 10:12pm

Sam wants to protect Gilly from pervs in Castle Black.....so sends her to live in a brothel

Washington Irving · 21-04-2014 10:16pm

Hotale.com wrote: »

And he's meant to be younger... To be honest I think he's okay. Loving new Daario, the last one looked like Barbie.

I meant to say younger, edited now. He looks older than he should imo. Someone said last week that it may have been to make his marriage to Margaery less shocking to a TV audience, which I can understand, but it makes other aspects of his character less believable.

username123 · 21-04-2014 10:16pm

Washington Irving wrote: »

Also, I don't like the new Tommen.

He looks like a slightly younger Joffrey. Thought the previous actor matched the description better, he looked more the 'playing with kittens' type than the 'crossbow through a whore' type.

Yeah he is very like Joffrey isn't he? I remember him being murdered as a Lannister cousin, so a bit disconcerting that he's reappeared as Tommen.

Peregrine · 21-04-2014 10:17pm

New Tommen is a wight.

bur · 21-04-2014 10:38pm

I don't know why they didn't follow the timing of events in the book with Jaime/Brienne. Seems a completely unnecessary thing to do, it's not like they've had them do anything since getting back to KL. Neither of them lifted a finger to help Sansa even. You'd think a scene with Brienne even talking to her about her Mother would have been put in there. Instead we got a really awkward clunky scene of Cersei and Brienne that wasn't needed.

And Aidan Gillen, he's always been bad at accents. His American one in The Wire is cringe inducing.

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 11:09pm

bur wrote: »

I don't know why they didn't follow the timing of events in the book with Jaime/Brienne. Seems a completely unnecessary thing to do, it's not like they've had them do anything since getting back to KL.

I'd imagine they didn't follow the timing of the book because otherwise season 3 wouldn't have had much closure regarding Jaime's storyline. If I'm not mistaken, it was just after the purple wedding they returned in the book wasn't it?

pookiesboo · 21-04-2014 11:09pm

bur wrote: »

I don't know why they didn't follow the timing of events in the book with Jaime/Brienne. Seems a completely unnecessary thing to do, it's not like they've had them do anything since getting back to KL. Neither of them lifted a finger to help Sansa even. You'd think a scene with Brienne even talking to her about her Mother would have been put in there. Instead we got a really awkward clunky scene of Cersei and Brienne that wasn't needed.

And Aidan Gillen, he's always been bad at accents. His American one in The Wire is cringe inducing.

He should use his 'pretentious voice' that he uses for Other Voices as Littlefinger. I don't think he's a great actor though, very cringey especially when he was in Love/Hate.

bopper · 21-04-2014 11:25pm

Liam O wrote: »

There's no mention in the books of Oberyn Martell being gay, Ellaria is bi but now we have to endure shoehorned in gay sex scenes that add nothing to the plot and also add a silly weakness to Oberyn that would be exploited by Tywin too?

It is mentioned in the books that he sleeps with men, more than once. I don't see how it's a weakness, his character doesn't seem weak at all, quite the opposite actually. There also hasn't been a single gay sex scene in the entire series so far so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Do you find you have to "endure" the huge amount of female nudity and girl on girl action that features in the show? That of course DEFINITELY serves the plot and is NEVER "shoehorned" in just for the sake of it :rolleyes:

FunLover18 · 21-04-2014 11:30pm

Personally I thought that was the weakest episode in a long time. Arya and the Hound are turning into some weird buddy act that doesn't seem right within the setting of the show, and Sam and Gilly have become a cliched couple in a teen drama. I thought the writing was very poor. When Davos said to Stannis "You won't be poor for long" I thought he was going to suggest going to the Iron Bank but it turns out he hadn't even had that notion yet.

I'm also getting worried about the timing, Tyrion's trial is in two weeks which means it will have be next week right? I'm unsure of the timeline of the show, Tyrion made reference to Sansa being tormented by Joffrey for years which implies that each season roughly represents a year ... ?

Littlefinger's accent ... he must be doing it on purpose!!

Also, I had to watch this in Standard Def due to recording conflicts #firstworldproblems

Nerdlingr · 21-04-2014 11:33pm

Was the scene with the Hound robbing from the farmer in the books? I cant remember.

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 11:36pm

bopper wrote: »

It is mentioned in the books that he sleeps with men, more than once. I don't see how it's a weakness, his character doesn't seem weak at all, quite the opposite actually. There also hasn't been a single gay sex scene in the entire series so far so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Do you find you have to "endure" the huge amount of female nudity and girl on girl action that features in the show? That of course DEFINITELY serves the plot and is NEVER "shoehorned" in just for the sake of it :rolleyes:

I think the weakness he/she is referring to is that, after seeing Oberyn in bed with a man, Tywin could use Oberyn's promiscuity with other men as a way of spreading rumours about him, or garnering hatred for him amongst the common people (albeit that the common people seem to be the least of Tywin's concerns). Is homosexuality even frowned upon in Westeros? I never really remember any serious contempt being conveyed towards homosexuality in the books...

lynski · 21-04-2014 11:36pm

I did not think it was a rape scene at all, more a we shouldn't it's wrong while grabbing and kissing him?
Very much like the book scene, not her idea and she might have chosen a different time but went with the moment?
Anyway loved a lot if it, but not the accent.
Things are moving fast, yeah ? Like Jon stepping up to say what has to be done and danys story.
All good so far

Sugar Free · 21-04-2014 11:38pm

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Was the scene with the Hound robbing from the farmer in the books? I cant remember.

I can't either 100% but maybe it was supposed to replace the part in the book where the Hound and Arya cross an overflowing river on the way to the Red Wedding. I think the Hound promises payment when the boat reaches the other side. The guy accepts this based on the Hound's word as a knight, only for him to ride off without paying. A different way to highlight the Hound's thievery and lack of honour I guess.

Although that could have been in the show, the two are blending into one for me now! Need a reread...

bopper · 21-04-2014 11:39pm

Is anyone else thinking the rape scene is probably a spoiler to what lays ahead in future books? Considering the writers are aware of each characters overall fate. Perhaps he doesn't remain a nice guy for much longer and they're trying to stop the viewers warming to him too much if he's only gonna end up being a dick again.

Personally I hate the way his character started being portrayed as some kind of a hero in the book. He was horrible right up until the point that he rescued Brienne. I don't think he should go unpunished, so if he's destined for some grisly end I'm all for it!

lynski · 21-04-2014 11:39pm

Hotale.com wrote: »

I think the weakness he/she is referring to is that, after seeing Oberyn in bed with a man, Tywin could use Oberyn's promiscuity with other men as a way of spreading rumours about him, or garnering hatred for him amongst the common people (albeit that the common people seem to be the least of Tywin's concerns). Is homosexuality even frowned upon in Westeros? I never really remember any serious contempt being conveyed towards homosexuality in the books...

Jeoffrey threatens to outlaw it, can't remember if that is books or show, definitely frowned on is westeros, probably could get you killed up north, but dorne is different.

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 11:40pm

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Was the scene with the Hound robbing from the farmer in the books? I cant remember.

I'm nearly 100% sure it wasn't. I remember a similar setting with a crossbow and someone referring to it as a "cowards weapon" in some farmhouse (a teenage boy might have been the one holding it), and I think some deaths followed (To be honest I'm not even sure if that was in Arya's story or Brienne's...)

mrkite77 · 21-04-2014 11:42pm

pookiesboo wrote: »

Sam wants to protect Gilly from pervs in Castle Black.....so sends her to live in a brothel

Even worse.. sends her to a small village closer to the incoming wildings...

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 11:43pm

lynski wrote: »

Jeoffrey threatens to outlaw it, can't remember if that is books or show, definitely frowned on is westeros, probably could get you killed up north, but dorne is different.

Would you think they'd do that up north? I remember in the S1 premiere Ned said something about Cat's gods "having all the rules", if the old gods weren't seen to frown upon it I don't think people would have been put to death for it... Although my love for Ned could be clouding the reality

bopper · 21-04-2014 11:48pm

Hotale.com wrote: »

I think the weakness he/she is referring to is that, after seeing Oberyn in bed with a man, Tywin could use Oberyn's promiscuity with other men as a way of spreading rumours about him, or garnering hatred for him amongst the common people (albeit that the common people seem to be the least of Tywin's concerns). Is homosexuality even frowned upon in Westeros? I never really remember any serious contempt being conveyed towards homosexuality in the books...

That doesn't really make any sense though because Tywin never even mentioned he was in bed with a man, and Oberyn doesn't make any attempt to hide it from anyone. It's also didn't stop Renly from being a King or Loras from being a member of the Kingsguard (and being supposedly quite popular even before that) so I don't see how it could be used against Oberyn.

bopper · 22-04-2014 12:01am

FunLover18 wrote: »

I'm also getting worried about the timing, Tyrion's trial is in two weeks which means it will have be next week right?

Not necessarily. Two weeks passes between episode 1 and episode 2, but it seems like only a day has passed between 2 and 3. The Viper/Mountain battle isn't until episode 8.

Paddy Cow · 22-04-2014 1:01am

FunLover18 wrote: »

I'm also getting worried about the timing, Tyrion's trial is in two weeks which means it will have be next week right?

Tyrion's trial by judges is in two weeks. His trial by champion is still to be announced. Bronn isn't allowed anywhere near Tyrion so that Tyrion won't be able to convince Bronn to be his champion a second time. Tywin thinks he has been clever by putting Oberyn on the judge's jury against Tyrion. I can't remember how it happens in the books but Oberyn is going to pull a fast one so he can get to fight the mountain. No one will be expecting a trial by champion and they'll probably have to wait for the mountain to reach King's Landing which will stretch out the timeline. I can't wait for the look on Tywin's face when Oberyn pulls this stunt

Hotale.com · 22-04-2014 1:28am

I really feel sorry for the non-book reading Dany fans, they're expecting so much

Washington Irving · 22-04-2014 1:29am

GRRM on the sept scene:

George RR Martin wrote:

Re: Jaime's changes in Breaker of Chains
This is off topic here. This is the section for comments about Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the Cocteau's author program.

Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply... but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that. I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

Now, if you please, I'd appreciate it if we could get back to Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the subjects of the original post.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/367116.html?thread=19030284#t19030284

TimeToShine · 22-04-2014 1:47am

thefa wrote: »

The unsullied won their reputation when 3,000 infantry defended a city against 20,000 dothraki cavalry. With 10,000 soldiers of them and her dragons she has a quality army. I think she has only to secure the transport and secure an early ally to be a big player in Westeros. There has to be some potential allies and it's little wonder Tywin is trying to secure dorne. I hope by the end of this season she is on the ships at least.

Poor fella.

Gbear · 22-04-2014 2:42am

Some good parts, some bad.

The bit with Sam and Gilly.. it's a bit hard to judge anything anywhere because the timelines are all over the place.

The battle at the wall should be over already so Sam and Gilly should've just arrived at Castle Black and the preparations for a new LC should be under way. Still, I'm not sure why we really need to be keeping in contact with them. Nothing interesting happened and I don't see what purpose it served.

Daario and the Champion in front of Meereen had some of the right elements but it was a bit anti-climactic and felt rushed.

About the Jamie and Cersei scene; from the books, the scene in front of Joffrey's corpse isn't the only time Jamie essentially forces Cersei to have sex but while it mightn't be entirely consensual usually the vibe you're given is that it's inconvenience or fear of getting caught that's making Cersei say "no" but she ends up giving in and it would be incredibly harsh on Jamie to classify those as rape.

Having said that, we don't really have those scenes, nor are we given characters' internal monologues in the show, so we have to take the scene on face value and assume it was either clumsily conceived or they meant to show Jamie raping Cersei.
If your view isn't biased by the books then it's hard to see how anyone could reasonably come to any other conclusion other than that being rape.

They've already completely ****ed Jamie's character by making him a common murderer. In for a penny, in for a pound seems to be the idea...

Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": *HAVE* read the books

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Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": HAVE read the books