Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

rebel.ranter · 19-06-2010 9:02pm #1

http://www.hoganstand.com/cork/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=130500

Pairc plans get green light
15 June 2010

Cork county board have been given the go-ahead to redevelop Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

Cork City Council yesterday voted 17-11 in favour of GAA plans to buy six extra acres from City Hall to expand the stadium and attach a centre of excellence, with an all-weather facility, at the venue.

Without the extra land, the GAA would not have pressed ahead with their ambitious plans to transform Pairc Ui Chaoimh into a modern 50,000-seater stadium. The redevelopment is expected to cost in the region of EUR50 million.

Cork chairman Jerry O'Sullivan said negotiations will now begin in earnest over the financial terms of the agreement and is hopeful that the first phase of the development will be completed within two years.

"We're absolutely delighted and I think this a landmark day for GAA in the county," the Cloyne clubman said.

"I'm delighted for sports people in the entire county - and for the GAA people. But this is only the very first step and the real hard work starts now. We'll be negotiating with the City Council now to do a deal for the cost of the land.

"Then the planning phase will take place and certainly I'd hope to have phase one completed within a two-year term."

O'Sullivan admitted that he was concerned that the project might not get the City Council's blessing after City Manager Joe Gavin indicated last week that he would be opposed to giving the GAA all of the land they were seeking because he feared the impact it would have on the wider development of the docklands area.

Pairc Ui Chaoimh will be closed to big matches during reconstruction, but O'Sullivan is hoping it will remain open for local games.

I don't see the logic of spending millions on a stadium that will host 2-3 matches annually at a maximum that will require 50,000 capacity. Especially when you consider that Cork GAA officials in particular would be staunchly opposed to allowing the stadium for use by other sports. Also we have no had any concerts down there that I can remember since Oasis in 1996.

Why oh why do we need such a large stadium that will be on a par with Landsdowne our national Soccer & Rugby venue?
Is it just because we can?

Owen · 19-06-2010 9:18pm

I find it incredible that the GAA can do the likes of this, and not be questioned. Am I right in saying their books aren't inspected by independent bodies annually? Any other organisation spending so much money would be put through the wringer, but the GAA heads can pretty much do what they want.

SeaFields · 19-06-2010 10:01pm

I'm for it lads.

If you attend matches there regularly you would see how poor the stadium is. If your anyway tall your crammed into your seat and the tunnels leading to the stand have the makings of a serious accident someday.

And, its development that will lead to some construction jobs in the short term.

19-06-2010 10:42pm

can't really understand the negativity lads, i have next to f all interest in gaa but see no reason why they should not in ahead with it if they want. So what if its on a par with the aviva. Might lead to a decent concert or two down here in years to come.

Orizio · 19-06-2010 10:45pm

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I find it incredible that the GAA can do the likes of this, and not be questioned. Am I right in saying their books aren't inspected by independent bodies annually? Any other organisation spending so much money would be put through the wringer, but the GAA heads can pretty much do what they want.

Cork GAA's books are published annually. :rolleyes:

I'm sure Cork GAA can spend its money the way it wants.

D-Generate · 19-06-2010 10:47pm

About time it was re-developed. For a stadium of its size it has been kept in a state that should have it almost condemned. When it is re-developed hopefully more matches will be hosted at it and maybe the Cork GAA will be open to the idea of having non-GAA games being played there. The FAI played matches outside of Dublin so don't see any reason why they wouldn't play one there.

Orizio · 19-06-2010 10:47pm

RoverJames wrote: »

can't really understand the negativity lads, i have next to f all interest in gaa but see no reason why they should not in ahead with it if they want. So what if its on a par with the aviva. Might lead to a decent concert or two down here in years to come.

Yeah but the GAA is the most evil organisation created since the SS. Everything they do is automatically wrong, even if its buying land with their own money in a transaction green-lighted by the Cork City Council (who no doubt they all bribed with brown envelopes and incriminating sexual pictures).

Orizio · 19-06-2010 10:51pm

Regarding the development itself, unless they significantly improve the facilities of and access to the stadium its a waste of time and money. On the other hand if they get it right it would be very useful not just for matches but for concerts and possibly for future soccer/rugby world cup bids.

Orizio · 19-06-2010 10:55pm

Especially when you consider that Cork GAA officials in particular would be staunchly opposed to allowing the stadium for use by other sports.

GAA officials have come out and said that soccer and rugby won't be played in the Pairc? Like they did with Croker for example?

Also we have no had any concerts down there that I can remember since Oasis in 1996.

Well thats because its currently a ****hole - the development is intended to help draw in acts.

BUNK1982 · 19-06-2010 11:03pm

This vote was to ratify the council providiing the land - the GAA still have a lengthy planning process to negotiate and a lot of politicians in the opposing camp.

I'm all for the redevelopment of Pairc Ui Chaoimh but this particular plan doesn't sit well with me for a number of reasons.

Why develop a centre of excellence in an area that's already been earmarked for large-scale urban development. Surely they should build this seperate to the Pairc in an area that's more accessible or set it up in conjunction with CIT/ UCC and bring an element of sports science into it?

Also there's no doubt that Pairc Ui Chaoimh needs an upgrade - but a 50,000 seater stadium for 2-3 games a year??

Orizio · 19-06-2010 11:07pm

BUNK1982 wrote: »

This vote was to ratify the council providiing the land - the GAA still have a lengthy planning process to negotiate and a lot of politicians in the opposing camp.

I'm all for the redevelopment of Pairc Ui Chaoimh but this particular plan doesn't sit well with me for a number of reasons.

Why develop a centre of excellence in an area that's already been earmarked for large-scale urban development. Surely they should build this seperate to the Pairc in an area that's more accessible or set it up in conjunction with CIT/ UCC and bring an element of sports science into it?

Also there's no doubt that Pairc Ui Chaoimh needs an upgrade - but a 50,000 seater stadium for 2-3 games a year??

Your point about the capacity is fair enough unless they get other ways to fill the stadium - so basically big 'music' acts, like U2, Westlife etc.

namloc1980 · 19-06-2010 11:12pm

Orizio wrote: »

Regarding the development itself, unless they significantly improve the facilities of and access to the stadium its a waste of time and money. On the other hand if they get it right it would be very useful not just for matches but for concerts and possibly for future soccer/rugby world cup bids.

World Cup bids??

Orizio · 19-06-2010 11:14pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

World Cup bids??

Yes. They have these things called 'world cups' in soccer and rugby that you can apply to host you see, and then...

namloc1980 · 19-06-2010 11:16pm

Orizio wrote: »

Yes. They have these things called 'world cups' in soccer and rugby that you can apply to host you see, and then...

World Cups in Ireland....I think not.

Orizio · 19-06-2010 11:17pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

World Cups in Ireland....I think not.

It could be a joint bid with Scotland and Wales for example in Rugby. Although temporary seating might be a problem.

namloc1980 · 19-06-2010 11:20pm

Orizio wrote: »

It could be a joint bid with Scotland and Wales for example in Rugby. Although temporary seating might be a problem.

Well FIFA have ruled out joint bids ever again after Korea/Japan in 2002 so football is out. As for rugby the infrastructure in Cork is crap and would need significant upgrading and investment to even be considered.

Orizio · 19-06-2010 11:28pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Well FIFA have ruled out joint bids ever again after Korea/Japan in 2002 so football is out. As for rugby the infrastructure in Cork is crap and would need significant upgrading and investment to even be considered.

The infastructure in Cork City itself? No doubt you are right, but we are talking about a joint bid a couple of decades from now anyway, plenty of time for things to change.

Orizio · 19-06-2010 11:33pm

rebel.ranter wrote: »

Especially when you consider that Cork GAA officials in particular would be staunchly opposed to allowing the stadium for use by other sports.

As an aside this is a big red herring, as I'm not sure what Rugby/Soccer games you expect to be played down here, considering Thomond is just up the road and considering Cork City Forus (or whatever) only get a few thousand per game.

namloc1980 · 19-06-2010 11:33pm

Orizio wrote: »

The infastructure in Cork City itself? No doubt you are right, but we are talking about a joint bid a couple of decades from now anyway, plenty of time for things to change.

Yes the infrastructure in the city and surrounding suburbs is crap and has suffered decades of under-investment and neglect. Hopefully this Páirc Uí Chaoimh redevelopment will kick start the whole docklands thing but I have a feeling it will be many years before anything happens at the Pairc.

namloc1980 · 19-06-2010 11:34pm

Orizio wrote: »

As an aside this is a big red herring, as I'm not sure what Rugby/Soccer games you expect to be played down here, considering Thomond is just up the road and considering Cork City Forus (or whatever) only get a few thousand per game.

+1. The Aviva Stadium is opening later in the summer and the FAI and Rugby are pretty much committed to playing all their games there.

Orizio · 19-06-2010 11:34pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Yes the infrastructure in the city and surrounding suburbs is crap and has suffered decades of under-investment and neglect. Hopefully this Páirc Uí Chaoimh redevelopment will kick start the whole docklands thing but I have a feeling it will be many years before anything happens at the Pairc.

Can't disagree really, lets hope that we are both being too cynical however.

Orizio · 19-06-2010 11:36pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

+1. The Aviva Stadium is opening later in the summer and the FAI and Rugby are pretty much committed to playing all their games there.

Possibly some of the early Magner's League matches could be played down here, but then again they probably won't get enough of a crowd into to make it financially viable.

Buceph · 19-06-2010 11:37pm

Completely ridiculous behaviour. The council hand land over to the GAA, when they oppose the re-development of Musgrave park.

I have no problem with the GAA wanting to expand, but the council should treat all sports the same. The Munster redevelopment wouldn't have been as big, and was only based on the rezoning of land that Munster already had, so far less hassle for the city, and they blackballed it.

What's even worse is the response I got from over 25 councilors. I e-mailed a load of them a few days before the meeting, outlining why I wanted them to support the motion, and what the advantages of it were. I got a response from a grand total of one of them.

There are three viable big stadium sports in Cork, football, hurling and rugby (and lets hope soccer soon too.) All of them bring in money for the city, the council should be supporting all of them.

Orizio · 19-06-2010 11:40pm

Buceph wrote: »

Completely ridiculous behaviour. The council hand land over to the GAA, when they oppose the re-development of Musgrave park.

I have no problem with the GAA wanting to expand, but the council should treat all sports the same. The Munster redevelopment wouldn't have been as big, and was only based on the rezoning of land that Munster already had, so far less hassle for the city, and they blackballed it.

What's even worse is the response I got from over 25 councilors. I e-mailed a load of them a few days before the meeting, outlining why I wanted them to support the motion, and what the advantages of it were. I got a response from a grand total of one of them.

There are three viable big stadium sports in Cork, football, hurling and rugby (and lets hope soccer soon too.) All of them bring in money for the city, the council should be supporting all of them.

Link? According to wikipedia it is being re-developed:

In March 2010 it was announced that a major redevelopment was to take place at the ground. A new all seated West Stand would be built in the first phase of a development to bring capacity to over 18,000[3]. Construction is to start in January 2011 and planning permission will be sought for another similar sized East Stand.

Buceph · 20-06-2010 12:05am

Orizio wrote: »

Link? According to wikipedia it is being re-developed:

Best I can find is from January 16th here http://www.danboyle.ie/index.php?pageID=1374

The council separated the permission for rezoning and planning application in two pieces. Munster Rugby wanted to put some houses and private facilities on a derelict piece of land they owned next to Musgrave park. Part to fund it, and in part to add support facilities for the team and the two clubs that are there already. The council refused the whole plan, and saying that the two parts should be separate. Then they refused the support facilities and houses outright, saying there would be no rezoning from industrial ground because of future plans. That put an end to that redevelopment plan, as Munster Rugby couldn't afford it without the houses, and there wouldn't be the neccesary ancillary facilities.

Dan Boyle and the greens were the strongest opponent, as they had votes from residents near there, and they had some whacked out notion that the land could be used for a park, even though it was derelict industrial ground.

Munster got the funds elsewhere though, and put in the plan again without the rezoning needed for the derelict land. That was partly refused, again at the insistence of the greens and Dan Boyle. Again because he was canvassing for votes there. And a smaller redevelopment of only one side of the pitch was allowed. Which is a far cry from the total redevelopment initially planned. They have to apply for the other side of the pitch now and that's not guaranteed.

I've asked the greens when they came campaigning around me a number of times, and they all say it would be a blight on the land, pure rubbish as the architects had it developed in a way that the profile would be no bigger than what was already there.

It just pisses me off that the greens and council, as was shown by their refusal to even acknowledge the e-mails that were sent to them (I know a number of people who were ignored) refuse to even contemplate the idea that Munster Rugby could bring in 20,000+ people to Cork, a large portion of them visitors from other countries who'd have to stay in Cork. And they ignore the fact that Munster Rugby is a big international team, one of the few in Ireland, that succeed on all levels and have done for years.

Musgrave Park is a pitiful stadium, barely even a stadium at all. It holds only 8,000 or so. This means no Heineken cup matches could be played there. The next time the distribution of matches between Cork and Limerick comes up is in either two or three years. And Limerick, with a stadium that pulls in 20,000 people at least for every match looks a lot more attractive than losing 12,000 paying customers for a match in Cork. If the council had approved the plans we'd be in contention for a lot more prestigious matches, including internationals. Now it's going to be sub-par compared to what it could have been.

Orizio · 20-06-2010 12:10am

So basically it seems to be a very local problem with the Greens? Why did others in the council reject the re-development or do you simply not know?

I'd be interested in knowing who rejected and approved the re-development btw.

Dob74 · 20-06-2010 1:59am

Personally I think its a waste of money. Why should the GAA have two stadia within a mile of each other. The GAA should put there own money into Pairc ui Rinn. The council should take over Pairc Ui Caoimh and build a stadium for big matches. Cork v Tipp, Munster v Leinster, Cork City if they get back to europe.
A 35000 seater would be prefectly adequate, cork and tipp wasnt even sold out, they got 34000. Cork v Kerry only 25000. A 35k all seater with comfortable seating good for concerts etc.
Look at Limerick Thomond and the gaelic grounds up the road from each other. Both are empty most of the year.

Orizio · 20-06-2010 2:11am

Dob74 wrote: »

Personally I think its a waste of money. Why should the GAA have two stadia within a mile of each other. The GAA should put there own money into Pairc ui Rinn. The council should take over Pairc Ui Caoimh and build a stadium for big matches. Cork v Tipp, Munster v Leinster, Cork City if they get back to europe.
A 35000 seater would be prefectly adequate, cork and tipp wasnt even sold out, they got 34000. Cork v Kerry only 25000. A 35k all seater with comfortable seating good for concerts etc.
Look at Limerick Thomond and the gaelic grounds up the road from each other. Both are empty most of the year.

They can't significantly upgrade Pairc ui Rinn, there isn't any room, its surrounded by Cork Con's grounds and residential areas. Its also in an even worse position regarding access for large scale matches. Besides both stadiums serve different purposes, Pairc ui Rinn can only have club matches, Pairc ui Chaoimh has inter-county.

run_Forrest_run · 20-06-2010 7:49am

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I find it incredible that the GAA can do the likes of this, and not be questioned. Am I right in saying their books aren't inspected by independent bodies annually? Any other organisation spending so much money would be put through the wringer, but the GAA heads can pretty much do what they want.

what sort of nonsense is this?? Were you dropped from the U-12 panel all those years ago??

Owen · 20-06-2010 9:48am

It was a question! The 'Am I right' bit gives that away. It was something I'd heard from several people and obviously incorrectly assumed there was something to it.

On another note, will they be providing parking to cater for these 60k people in the new stadium? Blackrock/Ballintemple can barely handle the chaos from a normal match let alone a super stadium.

Cape Clear · 20-06-2010 10:07am

It will be interesting to see how much public funding will be made available to the sectarian grab all asses. Croke park is a perfect example of where not to build a stadium ie. peoples back gardens. if any other sporting organisation had a kip like pairc ui caoimh it would have been shut long ago by health & safety. Rule 42 mentality is alive and well.

Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

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