Lack of sympathy over killing of Roma girl.

Jaxxy · 16-03-2012 7:17pm

up for anything wrote: »

I would hope so. People are still people.

Of course they are, and everyone deserves the same rights. My point is though, how can you be surprised about the attitude some people have toward the Roma?

As I said, it's a two-way street. No person, regardless of their race or background, should be able to steal, live under false pretenses off the State, prostitute or traffic without having to face the consequences. It's a widespread attitude in this country and it's not limited only to specific people. Have a read of some of the "dole scrounger" threads and you'll see what I mean.

Jaxxy · 16-03-2012 7:21pm

mhge wrote: »

By this logic, a murder of a child should surely be met with silence?

I was referencing something another poster said in my post. "Sure she's only a Roma begging girl". I was merely offering up an explanation as to what some people may feel toward that particular group of people and a possible reason why. I never said it was right.

tayto lover · 16-03-2012 7:28pm

Yakult wrote: »

Guards should do their job and stop criticizing society. And for what exactly? What does he want people to do? Maybe if you catch the criminals in the first place and make the justice system a bit less lenient maybe some of these horrendous crimes wouldn't happen.

How can the Garda make the justice system harder. It is not in their power. They only apply the laws, they don't make them.

Augmerson · 16-03-2012 7:49pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Gobshyte post. How can the Garda make the justice system harder. It is not in their power. They only apply the laws, they don't make them.

No need for that. He might have gotten it wrong but does make a point - some of our sentences are too lenient. The guy who killed the Swiss student in Galway had dozens of previous convictions, many for violent crimes. He should have been locked up, not out and roaming free.

You are correct though, the Gardai don't make the law's.

tayto lover · 16-03-2012 7:59pm

Augmerson wrote: »

No need for that. He might have gotten it wrong but does make a point - some of our sentences are too lenient. The guy who killed the Swiss student in Galway had dozens of previous convictions, many for violent crimes. He should have been locked up, not out and roaming free.

You are correct though, the Gardai don't make the law's.

Yes i apologise. But there are too many people getting away very handily in the courts and making a joke of the law. I know lads in my area who have a path worn to the courts and are in trouble every week. The Garda arrest them regularly but they laugh into their faces when leaving the court after getting treated with kid gloves and this is a border area where you need a bit of law with the shower of yahoos around here at weekends.

firefly08 · 16-03-2012 8:06pm

\No, but it did help bring in the new special gang legislation which means the vermin can be tried and convicted by judges, rather than juries. Which they were today Lets hope the vermin don't get out this time

Yeah that whole right to trial by jury thing was wearing a bit thin :eek:

Look, what makes people outraged and kick up a fuss etc. is not the race or ethnicity etc. etc. - it's how much they can relate to the crime, and how much it affects them and their way of life.

No one reacts when a street urchin is mistreated or killed because it's normal - if you live that kind of lifestyle, that kind of thing can easily happen. it doesn't scare Joe Soap because he knows it won't happen to him.

It's the same with everything - look at the all news reports of the 28 people killed in the bus crash in Switzerland! There are bus crashes and ferry disasters of that scale at least once a week in India and/or China. We don't see that happening to us because we don't overload ferries or allow people to hang off the top of a bus. The difference is that what happened in Switzerland could happen to us. Therefore it's scary. Therefore we care more.

It's human nature...which is not to say that we shouldn't address the issue - but don't mistake it for people not giving a ****e because foreigner's lives are worth less.

up for anything · 16-03-2012 8:24pm

Jaxxy wrote: »

Of course they are, and everyone deserves the same rights. My point is though, how can you be surprised about the attitude some people have toward the Roma? []

For myself I am not surprised but saddened. It's much the same attitude that a hold of people hold about the travellers. Not really regarded as human.

Jaxxy wrote: »

As I said, it's a two-way street. No person, regardless of their race or background, should be able to steal, live under false pretenses off the State, prostitute or traffic without having to face the consequences. It's a widespread attitude in this country and it's not limited only to specific people. Have a read of some of the "dole scrounger" threads and you'll see what I mean.

So young girls forced into prostitution should still have to face the consequences? Children who are brought up to steal, beg, and live under false pretences without ever speaking to anyone who isn't of their 'kind' should have to face the consequences.

I wonder how many people on AH could say that they have ever spoken to a Roma in this country apart from saying things like **** off, no way, get a job, get a life, go back to where you came from, you must be joking, give us a blow job, missus and I'll give you €2, etc. Being either abused or ignored is not a nice way to grow up.

I read the dole scrounger threads and I despair of people. Economic difficulty seems to be throwing us back 200 years in attitudes towards our fellow man, woman and child.

Jaxxy · 16-03-2012 9:00pm

up for anything wrote: »

For myself I am not surprised but saddened. It's much the same attitude that a hold of people hold about the travellers. Not really regarded as human.

I'm not sure if people regard them as some subhuman species rather than just a people who are completely removed from their own definition of what a human society should be like. Which is a form of discrimination in itself very true.

So young girls forced into prostitution should still have to face the consequences? Children who are brought up to steal, beg, and live under false pretences without ever speaking to anyone who isn't of their 'kind' should have to face the consequences.

No, not all, I think you're picking me up wrong. The people responsible for forcing young girls into prostitution or forcing their children to beg should be held responsible. You can't hold a child accountable for that.

I wonder how many people on AH could say that they have ever spoken to a Roma in this country apart from saying things like **** off, no way, get a job, get a life, go back to where you came from, you must be joking, give us a blow job, missus and I'll give you €2, etc. Being either abused or ignored is not a nice way to grow up.

No it's a horrible way to grow up I completely agree. But their parents/guardians perpetuate this kind of behaviour and response from people. If they weren't scamming or begging or stealing they wouldn't get this response. Other cultures don't suffer anywhere near the same kind of vitriol that the Roma do. And while some stories may be exaggerated, it's a reputation that is not completely undeserved. It's a vicious cycle and until it's broken they will continue to encounter this kind of attitude.

I myself have had encounters with Roma people. There's a few of them who busk near where I work, and they're quite entertaining and funny. But being honest the majority of my experiences with Roma have been quite negative. That's just me personally mind, I can't speak for anyone else. And like any culture or people, you'll get the bad apples with the good.

I read the dole scrounger threads and I despair of people. Economic difficulty seems to be throwing us back 200 years in attitudes towards our fellow man, woman and child.

That, like many other attitudes you will encounter, is just symptomatic of a serious lack of understanding.

Eric Cartman · 16-03-2012 9:13pm

Jack_Russell wrote: »

Are some immigrants less deserving of our sympathy? And if so why?

Yes , Because... while it is tragic that this girl was killed, unfortunatly I would say almost all Irish peoples experience with roma (along with some other minority groups) are negative ones. Its the activities of the visible sect of the roma community that sheds a negative light on them, and so Irish people dont feel bad about crimes committed against them, considering the crimes perpetrated by the roma community against Irish people.

Im not saying this girl specifically committed crimes, but when you say the word roma to an Irish person, they automatically think of beggars, thieves, the children standing at ATM machines trying to rob you. I wish I could say it was a minority of roma in Ireland doing this, but I know that is not the case.

the purple tin · 16-03-2012 9:17pm

Stone is angry with the public for not being outraged about this killing.
How does he know what we're thinking about this, or any murder for that matter?
Is he psychic? Does he have a window into the mind of every single Irish person?
I think he should wise up.

Old Tom · 16-03-2012 9:23pm

wes wrote: »

Simply put, the Roma are prehaps the most hated group in Europe.

The question always is "why?"...

Giselle · 16-03-2012 10:48pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Yes , Because... while it is tragic that this girl was killed, unfortunatly I would say almost all Irish peoples experience with roma (along with some other minority groups) are negative ones. Its the activities of the visible sect of the roma community that sheds a negative light on them, and so Irish people dont feel bad about crimes committed against them, considering the crimes perpetrated by the roma community against Irish people.

Im not saying this girl specifically committed crimes, but when you say the word roma to an Irish person, they automatically think of beggars, thieves, the children standing at ATM machines trying to rob you. I wish I could say it was a minority of roma in Ireland doing this, but I know that is not the case.

All you have to do is separate the person from the background. She was a human being, not some stereotype that somehow mitigates the disgust any decent person should feel.

She was an 18 year old girl who died under totally horrific circumstances. On a human level every single person in the country should be outraged about that, no matter who she was, where she was from, or what her family business was.

Lawrence1895 · 16-03-2012 10:58pm

Old Tom wrote: »

The question always is "why?"...

Because people tend to pick a scapegoat in times of hardship...someone who appears to be different, which includes religion, colour of skin, ethnic origin, etc.

Mr Benevolent · 16-03-2012 11:24pm

wes wrote: »

Simply put, the Roma are prehaps the most hated group in Europe. So, I think a huge chunk of the reason is that she was Roma.

Bad reason. The Jews used to be the most hated group in Europe. Look how that turned out.

themandan6611 · 16-03-2012 11:50pm

Confab wrote: »

Bad reason. The Jews used to be the most hated group in Europe. Look how that turned out.

I dont see the roma people forming one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world

EGAR · 16-03-2012 11:52pm

Giselle wrote: »

All you have to do is separate the person from the background. She was a human being, not some stereotype that somehow mitigates the disgust any decent person should feel.

She was an 18 year old girl who died under totally horrific circumstances. On a human level every single person in the country should be outraged about that, no matter who she was, where she was from, or what her family business was.

Totally and utterly agree with this, she went through hell and was killed and discarded like rubbish.

Sand · 16-03-2012 11:53pm

If I may channel the entire Irish people through me, as an avatar if you will of the entire nation, I think the death this poor girl suffered was absolutely horrific. And that the people who committed it were sub human scum who should be tortured, castrated, mutilated, hung, drawn and quartered. This is regardless of who the girl was or where she came from (seriously - what the ****....Roma, Irish, Martian - what difference does that make to anyone?)

This is the typical reaction of any Irish person who is asked about the events and the murder in question. Nobody, absolutely nobody deserves a death like this girl suffered - except the people who carried it out who deserve worse. I'm not sure what the Gardai expect in response - I agree with the general logic that you see people more worked up about distant, remote injustices in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan etc, but he seems to forget that in Ireland we have a force thats dedicated to combating injustice - its called the Gardai.

I really, really, really doubt that the people who carried out this sick crime were boy scouts prior to the event - if the Gardai were motivated to persecute habitual criminals for minor offences ... who knows...maybe they would prevent serious offences?

EGAR · 17-03-2012 12:01am

To be fair, it must be very frustrating to see criminals whom they arrested walk out of court scot free or get short sentences etc. Look at the guy who broke out of prison recently, he had nearly a hundred priors and got sent down for manslaughter of a Gardai.

That must be immensely frustrating.

mikemac1 · 17-03-2012 12:45am

People relate to people like them

If I may bring up a common tactic in the famous Daily Mail
Mrs Stephens was found murdered in her house with a value of quarter of a million.

The value of the house means nothing but the editors insert it for a reason. You'll often see it in reports.

As was said in other threads, if the McCanns were benefit spongers from the flats we may not even know their name and if we did there would be a lot less sympathy, less money and no book deals

firefly explains it better earlier in the thread

Look, what makes people outraged and kick up a fuss etc. is not the race or ethnicity etc. etc. - it's how much they can relate to the crime, and how much it affects them and their way of life.

You read the story, do you relate to the person at all? You could say the same about films too but now I'm going way offtopic
If you can't relate then it's hard to feel anything, not anger or outrage or sympathy, nothing but apathy

Monty Burnz · 17-03-2012 12:54am

Old Tom wrote: »

The question always is "why?"...

I guess - in this country - the problem would be the begging and the not working and stuff. This is a totally separate issue to the appalling crime that was committed against that poor girl.

EGAR · 17-03-2012 1:16am

skregs wrote: »

To be honest, I don't give a shít. Bitch all you want, but clearly 99% of the country agrees with me. They're thieves and beggars and they'd have far more sympathy from the Irish people if they actually contributed anything ever to the country.

No one wants gypsies here so we don't care what happens to them. Let them roam back to Romania and take their accordians with them.

Quite pretentious of you to state as a fact that 99% of the country are behind you. That would infer 99% of the people living in Ireland have lost their ability to feel empathy. I somehow doubt that highly.

Oh and what is an *accordian*?

nacho libre · 17-03-2012 1:17am

The buck responsible should be given cancer and have experiments carried out on him.

EGAR · 17-03-2012 1:30am

skregs wrote: »

Not pretentious, merely the complete and utter lack of public outrage or sympathy towards the killing would imply that a large majority care as little as I do.

Of course, my argument is obviously laughably ridiculous because I misspelled accordion.

Indeed not, no one is laughing. There is plenty of outrage and sympathy at least amongst my friends and family, obviously not amongst yours.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/the-life-and-death-of-marioara-rostas-181766.html

If you can read that and then tell me that you do not feel the slightest empathy for this girl then I think that you are a very jaded person.

Giselle · 17-03-2012 1:35am

skregs wrote: »

To be honest, I don't give a shít. Bitch all you want, but clearly 99% of the country agrees with me. They're thieves and beggars and they'd have far more sympathy from the Irish people if they actually contributed anything ever to the country.

No one wants gypsies here so we don't care what happens to them. Let them roam back to Romania and take their accordians with them.

Actually you not giving a sh!it about the brutalisation, degradation, sexual torture and exploitation of another human being says a lot more about you than it does about the Roma, and I doubt you have the franchise to speak for '99% of the country'.

EGAR · 17-03-2012 1:36am

skregs wrote: »

Not even the slightest bit.

I pity you, I really do.

the groutch · 17-03-2012 1:36am

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

if that was an Irish Traveller, then I doubt it would be much different - there'd be little sympathy due to the vast majority of Irish people's views on both groups.

+1, when an "ethnic" group as a whole decide to operate outside the law, they're not going to get any sympathy when they end up on the wrong end of things.

MungBean · 17-03-2012 1:57am

Lads if you have no sympathy for that girl after she went through all that there's something seriously wrong with you.

I agree that certain groups have a reputation for being up to no good and by and large its warranted and I'd be as distrustful of them as the next person but regardless of all that what happened to that girl was sickening and should not have happened.

Just because it doesnt publicly manifest itself doesnt mean people do not sympathise or are not outraged over this. As people have said its been drawn out over 4 years and a grisly end was expected.

oppenheimer1 · 17-03-2012 2:24am

Jack_Russell wrote: »

@Jelly2

some folk might argue all gypsies, travellers, roma etc. "had contributed to his/their own demise"

'tis a very slippery slope

The case of Ward is different. Ward was on Nallys farm with the intention of robbing him, thats why he was considered to have contributed to his own demise.

As for the case with this girl, its easy to see why there was little outrage. The gardai only said that heinous things happened to this girl, there was no description of what actually happened to her, which would be necessary to elicit sympathy imo. Secondly, its been 4 years since she was abducted, and was living in Ireland on her own. No one knew her.

humberklog · 17-03-2012 2:27am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The case of Ward is different. Ward was on Nallys farm with the intention of robbing him, thats why he was considered to have contributed to his own demise.

As for the case with this girl, its easy to see why there was little outrage. The gardai only said that heinous things happened to this girl, there was no description of what actually happened to her, which would be necessary to elicit sympathy imo. Secondly, its been 4 years since she was abducted, and was living in Ireland on her own. No one knew her.

She wasn't on her own. She came over and joined her family. Her brother was begging with her and gave a desciption of the car the picked her up. She was living with her family in a derelict house in Donabate.

oppenheimer1 · 17-03-2012 2:33am

humberklog wrote: »

She wasn't on her own. She came over and joined her family. Her brother was begging with her and gave a desciption of the car the picked her up. She was living with her family in a derelict house in Donabate.

I stand corrected. Perhaps its the lack of media coverage that has caused the lack of outrage?

humberklog · 17-03-2012 2:35am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I stand corrected. Perhaps its the lack of media coverage that has caused the lack of outrage?

The story has been covered very well. It was investigated very badly at the beginning. As I mentioned earlier in a post, the gardai thought she was married off within her own community.

The story was very well covered in print media from day one.

skregs · 17-03-2012 2:49am

Giselle wrote: »

I doubt you have the franchise to speak for '99% of the country'.

I do yeah. I spoke to them all and they said they agreed with me so.

G.muny · 17-03-2012 2:53am

I was disgusted when I heard about this case, as were most people I know. I wasn't aware that people apprantly didn't care. Everyone I know thought it was horrendous. God luv the poor girl and I hope the scum that done it to her rot.

humberklog · 17-03-2012 3:08am

G.muny wrote: »

I was disgusted when I heard about this case, as were most people I know. I wasn't aware that people apprantly didn't care. Everyone I know thought it was horrendous. God luv the poor girl and I hope the scum that done it to her rot.

But it's only the GRA's PJ Stone saying that in the GRA's own publication. That doesn't make it fact. What is fact is that the Gardai didn't care and he's trying to mirror that onto general Irish society.

This bonzo's deflection is sickening.

carlmango11 · 17-03-2012 3:48am

Realistically is it not totally understandable that the average Joe Soap wouldn't be outraged about the death of a Roma?

I mean the only view the Irish get of them is the pushy, rude beggars that are all over the streets of Dublin (I can't comment on other cities). To a lot of them begging is their culture; they don't do it out of necessity. There have been countless immigrants to Europe of all different ethnicities and no other group but the Romas have decided to beg for generation after generation instead of getting jobs.

Compare this murder to that of the Polish lads who got stabbed with the screwdriver. People were disgusted over that and there was a huge deal made about it. Simply because the general Irish opinion of the Polish is that they are hard working, good people.

Of course people are going to care more about a race which is tangibly more integrated and productive in society. Why would the public mourn or be deeply moved by the death of someone who spends their life as a leech on society. I know I sound like a racist, heartless bastard but I'm being realistic. I think there's an element of PC bull**** about this. It was a horrible crime, the culprits should be locked for life but I can understand why the Irish public haven't made a big fuss.

G.muny · 17-03-2012 4:02am

the groutch wrote: »

+1, when an "ethnic" group as a whole decide to operate outside the law, they're not going to get any sympathy when they end up on the wrong end of things.

The 16 year old girl that was shot in tallaght was a traveller and there was outrage. Reguardless of where that girl was from she was 18 years of age...barely an adult. She was brutally raped by more than one of those bastards, during which time she probaly knew she would be murdered. NO ONE...deserves that. Reguardless of weather she was on the right ot wrong side of the law. So she may have bothered a few people with her begging probaly something she was brought up to do so sure who cares then, if she is beaten up, raped and killed? I really don't understand people. When did everyone get so cold. The thoughts of how afraid that girl must have been don't bare thinking about

Jack_Russell · 18-03-2012 1:57am

G.muny wrote: »

The 16 year old girl that was shot in tallaght was a traveller and there was outrage. Reguardless of where that girl was from she was 18 years of age...barely an adult. She was brutally raped by more than one of those bastards, during which time she probaly knew she would be murdered. NO ONE...deserves that. Reguardless of weather she was on the right ot wrong side of the law. So she may have bothered a few people with her begging probaly something she was brought up to do so sure who cares then, if she is beaten up, raped and killed? I really don't understand people. When did everyone get so cold. The thoughts of how afraid that girl must have been don't bare thinking about

When did everyone get so cold.

let me see? the 30s, the 40s or 50s when society turned a blind eye to the rape of little children by our clergy.

don't get me wrong what happened to that poor Roma girl was truly appalling, but i dont buy this "and we used to be such a compassionate society" mullarkey.

LH Pathe · 18-03-2012 2:13am

A lack of sympathy?! .. might be borne out of the possibility she was willing to go there. i'm not gonna practice the last saving grace of the desperate by claiming "i hate perverts" .. But I do; you know?! and even if there's a bit of one in all of us dubbed sexual urges this was completely bottom rung. And should be re-enacted in love/hate to drive home the grimey reality -she certainly has my sympathy, and international embarrassment past the point it went particularly awry n she stopped enjoying her evening

Nodin · 18-03-2012 2:15am

the groutch wrote: »

+1, when an "ethnic" group as a whole decide to operate outside the law, they're not going to get any sympathy when they end up on the wrong end of things.

Isn't it great to see the advance in human empathy over the last few centuries.

Nodin · 18-03-2012 2:16am

LH Pathe wrote: »

A lack of sympathy?! .. might be borne out of the possibility she was willing to go there. i'm not gonna practice the last saving grace of the desperate by claiming "i hate perverts" .. But I do; you know?! and even if there's a bit of one in all of us dubbed sexual urges this was completely bottom rung. And should be re-enacted in love/hate to drive home the grimey reality -she certainly has my sympathy, and international embarrassment past the point it went particularly awry n she stopped enjoying her evening

...and whats that supposed to mean, in english this time....?

LH Pathe · 18-03-2012 2:21am

Nodin wrote: »

...and whats that supposed to mean, in english this time....?

same old riposte to whats not to understand.. you should read between the lies. are you a member of the gay community I once offended?

yammycat · 18-03-2012 2:24am

Nodin wrote: »

...and whats that supposed to mean, in english this time....?

it means she got in the car so all after that is fair game, not my opinion but his meaning

Nodin · 18-03-2012 2:25am

LH Pathe wrote: »

same old riposte to whats not to understand.. you should read between the lies. are you a member of the gay community I once offended?

You stated

A lack of sympathy?! .. might be borne out of the possibility she was willing to go there. i'm not gonna practice the last saving grace of the desperate by claiming "i hate perverts" .. But I do; you know?! and even if there's a bit of one in all of us dubbed sexual urges this was completely bottom rung. And should be re-enacted in love/hate to drive home the grimey reality -she certainly has my sympathy, and international embarrassment past the point it went particularly awry n she stopped enjoying her evening

...what, exactly, are you trying to say, in plain english, please.

LH Pathe · 18-03-2012 2:28am

That I'm disturbed as anyone by the lack of sympathy conveyed but trying to understand why. Personally I respect women in such a way, on such a level that even any sort of advancement is encroaching.

Nodin · 18-03-2012 2:32am

LH Pathe wrote: »

That I'm disturbed as anyone by the lack of sympathy conveyed but trying to understand why........

ty.

LH Pathe · 18-03-2012 2:36am

Nodin wrote: »

ty.

in english please?!

I conveyed myself perfectly the first time, might wanna go back n check. didn't require an explanation

yammycat · 18-03-2012 2:41am

carlmango11 wrote: »

Why would the public mourn or be deeply moved by the death of someone who spends their life as a leech on society.

yea a leech, they cost us the coppers out of our pockets, not the quarter of a trillion debt we are currently crippled with because of your productive members of society fatcat bankers and friends, seriously i'd happily take another few hunded thousand roma into our country if we could wipe out the destruction your productive friends cost us.

LH Pathe · 18-03-2012 2:44am

You've got to be deeply moved and embarrassed that an Irishman could do this sick shìt, for starters.

yammycat · 18-03-2012 2:47am

LH Pathe wrote: »

You've got to be deeply moved and embarrassed that an Irishman could do this sick shìt, for starters.

people have been raping and killing since the dawn of time, nothing to do with nationality

up for anything · 18-03-2012 2:49am

LH Pathe wrote: »

A lack of sympathy?! .. might be borne out of the possibility she was willing to go there. i'm not gonna practice the last saving grace of the desperate by claiming "i hate perverts" .. But I do; you know?! and even if there's a bit of one in all of us dubbed sexual urges this was completely bottom rung. And should be re-enacted in love/hate to drive home the grimey reality -she certainly has my sympathy, and international embarrassment past the point it went particularly awry n she stopped enjoying her evening

She has your international embarrassment? Strange sentiment!

The bit in bold made me want to vomit. Your idea of perverts is also strange and the fact that you think people that sell their bodies actually enjoy it. I would think that the majority do it on a needs must basis and not on an I enjoy my job basis. :rolleyes: Do you really think there was a point where she was enjoying it?

LH Pathe wrote: »

That I'm disturbed as anyone by the lack of sympathy conveyed but trying to understand why. Personally I respect women in such a way, on such a level that even any sort of advancement is encroaching.

I have a picture of you in my mind as a Victorian grandfather - respectable on the surface but with his hand up the tweeny maid's skirt when the chance is there. What on earth do you mean by "any sort of advancement is encroaching"?

Lack of sympathy over killing of Roma girl.

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