State spending €3million on communion rituals

Mark Hamill · 03-02-2012 7:39pm

Yahew wrote: »

New Atheist

Oh you're one of those people...

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 7:52pm

Yahew wrote: »

This "atheist" rant sounds like Thatcherism at it's worst. If the poor are too feckless to save, let them starve.

Oh and btw, this ''atheist'' rant has nothing at all to do with atheism, it's about a bankrupt country being frivolous with money it doesn't have.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 7:56pm

3 million is cheap as chips .

how many businesses/jobs benefit from the communion ritual?

hairdressers, taxis, bouncy catsle guys, djs and hall rental. supermarkets for beer and b.b.qs toy shops..off licences...pre /during and post ritual fortunes are being spent.

and with an average 700 yo yos per kid post ritual...to blow on the highstreet...all cash...

and the church picks up the tab for performing the said ritual...staffing costs et al...the economy gets the gate receipts.

it seems the kids are bringing back nearly 3 times what is being outlayed by the state per child....and that is before we factor in what the parents and relatives are spending on goodies /clothes/taxis/etc...

Gurgle · 03-02-2012 8:28pm

Yahew wrote: »

the State would pay a hard ship fund for a bar mitzvah

Do you have anything whatsoever to support this?
Or are you just making shìt up?

eyescreamcone · 03-02-2012 8:45pm

So what's all this about nuns working as prostitutes around communion time.
Now I'm interested.

Gbear · 03-02-2012 9:51pm

If you can't afford some fancy baubles for the sake of your own beliefs then tough ****!

The sense of entitlement beggars belief.:mad:

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 10:07pm

i think the 7 yr old children of the nation are entitled to partake in this national right of passage ...and putting 3 million aside is chicken feed.

they get dressed up..visit the auld aunts uncles and cousins...and get made feel a bit special for one day.

and a few bob to treat themselves after.

id replace it with something if it ever died out.

its good for keeping family bonds going too...everyone ups their game for the sake of a little 7 yr old.

we win socially and financially...if every state handout was increased threefold by the recipient...we'd be on the horses back.

Gbear · 03-02-2012 10:18pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

i think the 7 yr old children of the nation are entitled to partake in this national right of passage

National? The last I checked we're not part of the Vatican Empire.

They're absolutely not entitled to a "day out" paid for by the state.

The point of the state giving money to poor people is for it to function as a safety net. It supposed to keep people alive, safe and healthy. It's not there to pander to some religious whim.

As someone pointed out, why don't the fabulously wealthy Catholic church cover the costs? It's a good investment as indoctrinating them nice and early will insure future generosity in donations.

Lucy8080 wrote: »

...and putting 3 million aside is chicken feed.

Why not start up a "GBear Ferrari fund"? At €300k it's only 10% of the communion payouts and it's every bit as legitimate an expense for the state.

Or I suppose we could employ 20 extra nurses.

Lucy8080 wrote: »

they get dressed up..visit the auld aunts uncles and cousins...and get made feel a bit special for one day.

That's not the states business. I suppose they could buy every child a teddy bear and everyone who's had a rough day a foot massage but that isn't what the state is for!

rccaulfield · 03-02-2012 10:25pm

State funding religious nonsense again! I'll be taking my 7 year old around to visit everyone and giving them what they would have made out of my own pocket- call it a well done for getting this far day or similar. Thats 20 seconds thinking about it, i've a few years yet to prepare. Thats the beauty of the educate together system, you don't just have to do it to fit in with the average non thinking parents child.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 10:35pm

i called it " a national right of passage" because its as much that as religious.

take a poll on how many dole recipients believe in god...and then ask if they will be giving back their xmas bonus on point of principle!

theyd laugh at ya...because religion aside...they still like to enjoy a bit of christmas cheer too. its a national as much as religious custom by this stage.

social cohesion and support of the family is in the states interest.

and i still maintain that we get great value for that 3 million.

its worth it i.m.o.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 10:53pm

raucfield...i hope educate together do come up with something similar...its a celibration of the child for me...and id hate to see any kid left out.

call it ...whatever ya like...but there is a custom in this country that 7 yr olds have enjoyed for donkeys years.

it helps bond families..and makes the kids feel good about themselves.

and if some educate together parent is struggling to dress up the kid...the state can make sure no kid gets left out.

it would be a shame if this 7 yr old day out went by the wayside.

gbee · 03-02-2012 11:11pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

..its a celibration of the child for me...and id hate to see any kid left out. call it ...whatever ya like....

I believe it was part of the Summer festival and fertility rights, the child would have been 12 though.

Very briefly, Nellie Organ in in 1908 received special permission to have Holy Communion at just 41/2 years of age' In 1910, Pope Pius X made a Church Law stating that all children could receive Holy Communion at an early age.

Before this it was 12 years of age and the Bishop [note the Bishop] would interview BOTH parents to see if THEY were good Catholics and all three had to pass a series of interviews and tests.

Further reading by googling Little Nelly of Holy God. She is directly responsible for the lowering of the age to 6 and recently this was raised to the current 7 years.

Bookworm85 · 03-02-2012 11:22pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

raucfield...i hope educate together do come up with something similar...its a celibration of the child for me...and id hate to see any kid left out.

call it ...whatever ya like...but there is a custom in this country that 7 yr olds have enjoyed for donkeys years.

it helps bond families..and makes the kids feel good about themselves.

and if some educate together parent is struggling to dress up the kid...the state can make sure no kid gets left out.

it would be a shame if this 7 yr old day out went by the wayside.

Lucy8080,

I think most people are complaining because this payment is given out as an 'exceptional need'! I would class an exceptional need as a child suddenly becoming ill and needing medicine you cannot afford, you're washing machine is broken, you have kids clothes that need washing and you have no money to buy a new one, a relative passing away and you have no money to pay for a funeral etc etc.

Parents of catholic children have approximately 7-8 years to save for this occasion. From the moment that child's head is stuck in the font, then catholic parents should be saving for their communion, confession and confirmation.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 11:29pm

thx gbee.

ive seen the communion thing done in other countries. its not the same as ireland ..bar the religious ritual.

we have always had this thing about putting something in the hand of a child...granted our rights of passage tend to be catholic...but there is a peculiarly irish element to the way we do the after cermony....for the kid.

and most kids these days making their communion/confo...are not going to mass...neither are the parents....but its a bit like christmas for athiests...

we like it. because at the end of the day its for the kids...and they get that...and there isnt an athiest who would say withold xmas bonus for parents because those parents are athiest.

some of our customs we like...even if religion is involved. treating our kids to a dressed up day out...in which adults praise and give em presents or money....is socially cohesive...and good for society.

they tend to remember and pay it forward to the next generation of kids. its value is beyond monetary.

complaining about a bit of tax money to dress up a seven year old for a good day out...are we losing the plot.

call the day whatever ya want...do it for religious or secular or social reasons...

but lets as a state keep the custom of dressing up and celebrating the child...and giving said child the impression its valued and aprreciated by the adults in its social circle.

the memory abides.

Humans eh! · 03-02-2012 11:40pm

This is an opportunity for the catholic church to shine.*
Apparently the communion rite is very important your as a religious ritual in the lives of children born and baptised to catholic parents who attend mass on a weekly basis.
At collection time during mass (Via a handheld device) swipe your catholic card and one euro is deducted/handed over and put into a special account created at the time of your childs baptism which matures at communioin/confirmation time to pay for clothes etc, over the seven/12 years the church gains interest, the parents have no worries (provided they attend mass!) and the local economy benefits and the taxpayer (god help them) isn't burdened with another bill.
This would all depend on dedicated mass attendance throughout the life of the child and not just a display of ostentation/vulgarity etc at the crucial time.

*I am an atheist/realist

iguana · 03-02-2012 11:40pm

bluewolf wrote: »

they don't eat the dresses

I'm now imagining communion dresses made of candy floss.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-02-2012 11:43pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

we have always had this thing about putting something in the hand of a child...granted our rights of passage tend to be catholic...but there is a peculiarly irish element to the way we do the after cermony....for the kid.

You mean, the extended family getting drunk and starting fights?
It's tradition after all.

but its a bit like christmas for athiests...

Christmas was stolen from the pagans, there have been midwinter celebrations since prehistory, so any christian who tells me I've no right to celebrate what has been celebrated for thousands of years will be politely appraised of their ignorance.

we like it. because at the end of the day its for the kids...and they get that...and there isnt an athiest who would say withold xmas bonus for parents because those parents are athiest.

Atheists have more right to a midwinter celebration than christians do! And the SW bonus has been abolished anyway. This nonsense about paying for religious ceremonies should go the same way.

some of our customs we like...even if religion is involved. treating our kids to a dressed up day out...in which adults praise and give em presents or money....is socially cohesive...and good for society.

No reason why I or anyone else should pay for some randomer's jollies.
Let their parents give up the Sky tv, jonny blues or Dutch Gold for a few weeks if they need to save up!

Sonics2k · 03-02-2012 11:43pm

I'm sorry, but no.

The communion is absolutely not an 'exceptional need'. Families being able to pay rent, electricity, gas, and food are 'exceptional needs'.

Prancing your child around for some ritualistic nonsense, when all the child is concerned about is how much money they'll get is not an exceptional need by any understanding.

It's all this Celtic Tiger nonsense from the 90's gone insane, and no family 'needs' this money, they want it, and that's the difference.

If the State is willing to provide for these communions, maybe they should also provide for other religions rituals as well, such as the Bar Mitzvah.

Humans eh! · 03-02-2012 11:44pm

This is an opportunity for the catholic church to shine.*
Apparently the communion rite is very important as a religious ritual in the lives of children born and baptised to catholic parents who attend mass on a weekly basis. (allegedly)
At collection time during mass (Via a handheld device) swipe your catholic card and one measly euro is deducted/handed over and put into a special account created at the time of your childs baptism which matures at communioin/confirmation time to pay for clothes etc, over the seven/12 years the church gains interest on the deposit, the parents have no worries (provided they attend mass!) and the local economy/dress merchants benefit and the taxpayer (god help them) isn't burdened with another bill. (1x52x7/12 =364/642)
This would all depend on dedicated mass attendance throughout the life of the child and not just a display of ostentation/vulgarity etc at the crucial time.

*I am an atheist/realist

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 11:46pm

thx bookworm.

and i would say they are missing the bigger picture. most/or a significant percentage of those putting their kid through communion these days are not particularly religious. but they would like the child to have the day out all the same.

religion is tainting this. if it was a purely cultural custom for seven yr old...nobody would have a problem with 3 million set aside to cover hardship.

its not a necessity...or exceptional need....but i think we sometimes know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

i bet there are some here complaining...who will go out and put a few notes in a card for their niece nephew next communion day...and all because they were a kid themselves.

and i bet they smile at the thought of their own day out way back in the recesses of their memory.

because they funded an action man or bike or barbie...or their first packet of fags and can of bulmers...some here i bet where rebels when they were seven.

but ...part of the day was having new shoes and new dress/shirt and tie...the rest is just a good day in a childs life at the age of seven.

id like to see the dress up part covered just in case. the social benefits outweigh 3 million.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-02-2012 11:54pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

The communion is absolutely not an 'exceptional need'. Families being able to pay rent, electricity, gas, and food are 'exceptional needs'.

They're not exceptional needs either, they're normal costs of living which the weekly SW payments are supposed to cover. If people can't budget and manage their money responsibly it's not my fault, many working people have tighter budgets than some SW recipients do.

Exceptional needs payments are supposed to be for exceptional, essential expenses which could not have been foreseen. Clearly a communion is none of these.

Prancing your child around for some ritualistic nonsense, when all the child is concerned about is how much money they'll get is not an exceptional need by any understanding.

Some posters here like it though, what about the SW recipients who can't afford to put the 'traditional' €50 :rolleyes: into their nephew's card? Should they get an exceptional payment to cover that too?

The whole SW system in this country needs to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch. It's mental.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 12:20am

o.k. ninja.

i just found out santa claus doesnt exist either. thx for the info.

the kids are in for a rough year.

Bookworm85 · 04-02-2012 1:02am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

thx bookworm.

and i would say they are missing the bigger picture. most/or a significant percentage of those putting their kid through communion these days are not particularly religious. but they would like the child to have the day out all the same.

religion is tainting this. if it was a purely cultural custom for seven yr old...nobody would have a problem with 3 million set aside to cover hardship.

its not a necessity...or exceptional need....but i think we sometimes know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

i bet there are some here complaining...who will go out and put a few notes in a card for their niece nephew next communion day...and all because they were a kid themselves.

and i bet they smile at the thought of their own day out way back in the recesses of their memory.

because they funded an action man or bike or barbie...or their first packet of fags and can of bulmers...some here i bet where rebels when they were seven.

but ...part of the day was having new shoes and new dress/shirt and tie...the rest is just a good day in a childs life at the age of seven.

id like to see the dress up part covered just in case. the social benefits outweigh 3 million.

Lucy,

Yes it is lovely for kids to get dolled up, receive presents/cash, have a nice meal or day out with their families and friends. But these activities should be funded by their parents, godparents, relatives, friends etc. NOT BY THE IRISH TAXPAYER!

I don't know if you saw my first post on this thread, but I was unemployed for about 18 months and got a job not long before Christmas. I managed to go to 3 weddings while I was unemployed, I did this by being careful with what little money I had. If I can save enough money to go to 3 weddings (each with less than 6 months notice), then catholic parents with 6/7/8 years notice can easily save up enough for a communion dress.

Ickle Magoo · 04-02-2012 1:11am

Why aren't these parents using their hefty child benefit to pay for such things?

More than a bit cheeky to expect extra hand-outs when the state is already more than generous.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 1:26am

hi bookworm,

i didnt see ur first post. fair play to you ...i know the wedding craic and the pressure of it....sometimes u wish you didnt know so many people.

but the money here is for kids...to be outfitted for a religious/cultural right of passage.

not all adults have ur sense of responsibility.but i think the kids should not be punished for it.

if ur angry at the parents...well some adults struggle in this life...they dont have ur organisational skills or common sense....but their kids are not to blame.

and 3 million is pretty small when we look at the figures wasted in this country. the fact its set aside for children ...well at least its there...just in case...when your seven...your seven. none of the arguments presented here would even cross a 7 yr olds mind.

i would say a committed catholic would have the same approach to finance as yourself....

the 3 million is there for the kids. their parents may be ur bugbear.....and even amongst those parents...i would guess there are those who just struggling right now ...but would rather avoid state handouts.

im sure there are some abuses...

but im not sure what the social welfare bill is...im guessing this 3 mill is a drop in the ocean...and if it spares one seven yr old from shame on his/her big day out ...its worth it.

7 yr olds are just going along with what their culture is telling them to do....to be the odd one out with other 7 yr olds ...this is all they would be aware off.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-02-2012 1:37am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

o.k. ninja.

i just found out santa claus doesnt exist either. thx for the info.

the kids are in for a rough year.

Not my kids, I believe in providing for my own family not expecting to live high on the hog off other people's sweat.

CerebralCortex · 04-02-2012 1:41am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

hi bookworm,

i didnt see ur first post. fair play to you ...i know the wedding craic and the pressure of it....sometimes u wish you didnt know so many people.

but the money here is for kids...to be outfitted for a religious/cultural right of passage.

not all adults have ur sense of responsibility.but i think the kids should not be punished for it.

if ur angry at the parents...well some adults struggle in this life...they dont have ur organisational skills or common sense....but their kids are not to blame.

and 3 million is pretty small when we look at the figures wasted in this country. the fact its set aside for children ...well at least its there...just in case...when your seven...your seven. none of the arguments presented here would even cross a 7 yr olds mind.

i would say a committed catholic would have the same approach to finance as yourself....

the 3 million is there for the kids. their parents may be ur bugbear.....and even amongst those parents...i would guess there are those who just struggling right now ...but would rather avoid state handouts.

im sure there are some abuses...

but im not sure what the social welfare bill is...im guessing this 3 mill is a drop in the ocean...and if it spares one seven yr old from shame on his/her big day out ...its worth it.

7 yr olds are just going along with what their culture is telling them to do....to be the odd one out with other 7 yr olds ...this is all they would be aware off.

Well the church can decree a measure to make the event less expensive and separate the event from schools and the taxpayers money. The church expecting non church goers tax money to fuel their rituals is wrong.

Bookworm85 · 04-02-2012 1:51am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

hi bookworm,

i didnt see ur first post. fair play to you ...i know the wedding craic and the pressure of it....sometimes u wish you didnt know so many people.

but the money here is for kids...to be outfitted for a religious/cultural right of passage.

not all adults have ur sense of responsibility.but i think the kids should not be punished for it.

if ur angry at the parents...well some adults struggle in this life...they dont have ur organisational skills or common sense....but their kids are not to blame.

and 3 million is pretty small when we look at the figures wasted in this country. the fact its set aside for children ...well at least its there...just in case...when your seven...your seven. none of the arguments presented here would even cross a 7 yr olds mind.

i would say a committed catholic would have the same approach to finance as yourself....

the 3 million is there for the kids. their parents may be ur bugbear.....and even amongst those parents...i would guess there are those who just struggling right now ...but would rather avoid state handouts.

im sure there are some abuses...

but im not sure what the social welfare bill is...im guessing this 3 mill is a drop in the ocean...and if it spares one seven yr old from shame on his/her big day out ...its worth it.

7 yr olds are just going along with what their culture is telling them to do....to be the odd one out with other 7 yr olds ...this is all they would be aware off.

No the money is there for exceptional needs i.e. a sudden death, sudden illness, NOT FOR AN EVENT THAT PEOPLE KNEW WAS COMING FOR 7+ years.

Childrens allowance can be put towards circumstances such as communions, confirmations, birthdays, christmas.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 1:53am

cerebral,
ive said it before...the income to the state on this ritual outways what the state forks out.

its like xmas....not everyone believes...but they still spend ...and that money goes into the economy.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 1:58am

hi bookworm,

u sound upset. what if someone here put forward the argument that the state handed u too much money ...on the basis u attended three weddings on state handouts.

if u as an adult can attend three weddings on state handouts....i will support a seven yr old having one day out on state handouts.

thats how i can turn the argument on you...and i would be justified in doing so...

but i dont want to besmirch ur struggle to live on the dole.

its not easy.

lets remember the money is a payment for the child...and the childs big day out. a one off payment.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-02-2012 1:59am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

cerebral,
ive said it before...the income to the state on this ritual outways what the state forks out.

its like xmas....not everyone believes...but they still spend ...and that money goes into the economy.

What income to the state? Are we taxing communion money now?

Bookworm85 · 04-02-2012 2:06am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

hi bookworm,

u sound upset. what if someone here put forward the argument that the state handed u too much money ...on the basis u attended three weddings on state handouts.

if u as an adult can attend three weddings on state handouts....i will support a seven yr old having one day out on state handouts.

thats how i can turn the argument on you...and i would be justified in doing so...

but i dont want to besmirch ur struggle to live on the dole.

its not easy.

Well what I did with my entitlements is nobody's business, but I didn't live outside my means while I was claiming. If I couldn't afford it - I didn't buy it. I could have gone to the Social Welfare and said 'Hey my sister is getting married next month and I'd like a new dress' and claimed it was an 'exceptional need'.

ETA, I suppose I am a bit mad about this. I just don't understand why you dont see the logic behind the 'Exceptional Need'.

yawha · 04-02-2012 2:07am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

if it was a purely cultural custom for seven yr old...nobody would have a problem with 3 million set aside to cover hardship.

Yes we would.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 2:10am

vat nija. circulation of money. money out money in. go do ur own sums.

Stereomaniac · 04-02-2012 2:11am

No. But there's a lot of money being spent every year when kids reach that milestone. Chill.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 2:13am

bookworm ,

ur entitlements and a seven ur olds entitlements...why are urs private and theirs under attack. they are both entitlements...i have no problems with either.

if u want to attack the childs ...ill hold up a mirror.

Ickle Magoo · 04-02-2012 2:16am

Well if it's just a case of helping along the economy, lets all have new dresses and a knees up on state coffers - just think of the boost to the economy! It would be daft not to!!11!! :rolleyes:

yawha · 04-02-2012 2:16am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

vat nija. circulation of money. money out money in. go do ur own sums.

Do you think these kids won't be making their communions just because they haven't been given financial aid by the state for dresses or suits?

Bookworm85 · 04-02-2012 2:19am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

bookworm ,

ur entitlements and a seven ur olds entitlements...why are urs private and theirs under attack. they are both entitlements...i have no problems with either.

if u want to attack the childs ...ill hold up a mirror.

Yes, but the children's allowance payment is for children. The exceptional needs payment is for people who have 'exceptional' needs (and ill say this again) for a sudden death, for a sudden illness, if you need to pay for repairs to your home, not for meals out, fancy clothing or parties.

This link is an explanation as to what the exceptional needs payment is for. Please read it and come back to me when you find the word 'communion'

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 2:29am

yahwa,

i disagree. we would not have a problem. ive said it before...the irish have a thing i see missing in other cultures...its putting something into a childs hand. i dunno how it has ingrained itself in us...but its there. and ive had this discussion with other irishmen abroad. its almost something automatic in us.

when i look at our history and social conditions...my best guess is that neighbours needed each other because of poverty...and we still have that sense of giving .we have all heard the stories...maybe the younger/most recent generation have escaped this.

i dont know of anyone in my extended family who will not put something in a kids hand when they say goodbye...but i see the look of surprise on the kids face...because they are from all corners of the world...and dont get it in their own culture. and because they have never struggled...dont understand why and extended relative would put money in their hand just for meeting up.

3 mill is all is on the table here..and its for kids. rightly so.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 2:39am

bookworm,

ive already conceded to you it is not an exceptional payment.

it benefits us socially and economically. its a one off ritual in which the money spent by the exchequer is far less than the money put into the economy.

if the ritual ever goes by the wayside because off changing beliefs...we will save 3 mill...how much will the economy lose in ur opinion?

Hotblack Desiato · 04-02-2012 2:40am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

vat nija. circulation of money. money out money in. go do ur own sums.

OK so if I've got it right, your plan for economic nirvana goes something like this:

1. Give free money to people
2. They buy stuff and pay VAT!!!
3. Profit!

I'd much rather put my faith in the underpants gnomes than mindless socialism.

Bookworm85 · 04-02-2012 2:48am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

bookworm,

ive already conceded to you it is not an exceptional payment.

it benefits us socially and economically. its a one off ritual in which the money spent by the exchequer is far less than the money put into the economy.

if the ritual ever goes by the wayside because off changing beliefs...we will save 3 mill...how much will the economy lose in ur opinion?

I have absolutely no problem with money being set aside for people who are genuinely in need of this payment and who need the money for unforseen circumstances. However this money is diverted and is abused by people to celebrate their religious/cultural beliefs I would rather it was spent on freeing up a few beds in the hospitals, opening up closed hospital wards, paying for a few extra ambulances, putting a few extra gardai on the street.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 2:51am

no ninja. give about 200 yoyo s to a kid...the kid collects 700 yo yos on average.

if all people can get this return...go ahead with the plan.

that would be nirvana.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-02-2012 3:02am

Right so we give his family 200 in free money and get what back?

Do bear in mind that the money this kid gets would be spent by the people who gave it to him on something else if it wasn't for the religious one-upmanship occasion. It hasn't been magicked up out of nowhere or plucked off Richard Boyd Barrett's money tree.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 3:04am

bookworm,

the payment of 3 mill is tiny compared to our overall expenses. its also for kids. maybe some of their folks are on the rip....but even if that 3 mill was wiped out tomorrow...

u would see no descernable change.

but the ongoing cultural habit of having a day for 7 yr olds in which every adult in their circle gives em something and values them and tells em they are worthy and accepted......that is the kind of stuff that lasts and builds social cohesion and respect. through generations.

without it.....the 3 mill we save...will multiply into more millions for counselling or crime or some psycholgical problem of an adult who never knew what it was to be valued/appreciated as a kid.or who doesnt know how to pass it on.

its cheap money. well spent.

if atheism or communal schooling comes up with better ways to include children ritualistically...and give em a sense of community/ social cohesion/responsibilty ....lets support that.

im easy. and this 3 mill spend....works for the future....even if the kids drop all their religious beliefs....they had that one day they knew people /relations valued them.

and they may kindle that fire. even if its in the name of atheism.

Lucy8080 · 04-02-2012 3:07am

i get a good chuckle out of u ninja.

i think ur in that stage of anything to do with religion is bad and must be condemned.

up the revolution eh!

calm down. 3 million is nothing in our economy.

Bookworm85 · 04-02-2012 3:10am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

bookworm,

the payment of 3 mill is tiny compared to our overall expenses. its also for kids. maybe some of their folks are on the rip....but even if that 3 mill was wiped out tomorrow...

u would see no descernable change.

but the ongoing cultural habit of having a day for 7 yr olds in which every adult in their circle gives em something and values them and tells em they are worthy and accepted......that is the kind of stuff that lasts and builds social cohesion and respect. through generations.

without it.....the 3 mill we save...will multiply into more millions for counselling or crime or some psycholgical problem of an adult who never knew what it was to be valued/appreciated as a kid.or who doesnt know how to pass it on.

its cheap money. well spent.

if atheism or communal schooling comes up with better ways to include children ritualistically...and give em a sense of community/ social cohesion/responsibilty ....lets support that.

im easy. and this 3 mill spend....works for the future....even if the kids drop all their religious beliefs....they had that one day they knew people /relations valued them.

and they may kindle that fire. even if its in the name of atheism.

The fact that you think that a 7 year old needs to be dresses as a mini bride/groom and be given money/presents to feel 'accepted' by their families makes my head hurt. :eek:

If any 7 year old genuinely feels this than it hammers home the point that these religious and 'cultural' ceremonies need to be done away with!

Hotblack Desiato · 04-02-2012 3:10am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

the payment of 3 mill is tiny compared to our overall expenses.

Yes. It's still wrong though - it's wrong for a government to subsidise the rituals of a particular religion using tax money extracted from the population as a whole regardless of their beliefs. It's legalised theft.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-02-2012 3:15am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

i get a good chuckle out of u ninja.

i think ur in that stage of anything to do with religion is bad and must be condemned.

up the revolution eh!

calm down. 3 million is nothing in our economy.

Whatever happened to looking after the pennies and the pounds would look after themselves? This sort of Bertie-era "something for everyone in the audience" thinking is what bankrupted this country.

You still haven't justified why it's morally correct to subsidise a particular religious belief using taxation collected from people of all religions and none. Would you be happy to pay a Jew Tax or a Muslim Tax?

You really won't like it when I set up Atheist Fest and make all taxpayers pay for it

it'll be coke, hookers and booze out the ya-ya.

State spending €3million on communion rituals

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