State spending €3million on communion rituals

Mark Hamill · 03-02-2012 7:01pm

beerbuddy wrote: »

Are you outraged because the people are poor or because of the religious aspect.

I am annoyed that a significant amount of people are spending money they dont have on things they dont need.

beerbuddy wrote: »

How many of you complained at the expense of the Paddys days parade or chrimbo lights.

There is a stronger argument for these, in that they can offer a return in terms of increased tourism and public spending. That said, I've never been enamoured or protective of either and if either one can be shown to cost more money than they make then by all means, get rid of them.

gbee · 03-02-2012 7:05pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

whats the average collect on communions now?

€700. the minimum expected is the €50 note. Two years ago it was more or less capped at that as the recession was biting bigtime.

I've only seen two €500 notes in my Euro lifetime and one of then fell out of a communion child's card.

Ellis Dee · 03-02-2012 7:12pm

These grants are actually unconstitutional. Bunreacht na HEireann contains an express prohibition on the State endowing any religion, but these grants are an indirect subsidy to the kiddy-fiddler church.:mad:

They are also discriminatory, because only one denomination benefits. Just imagine the squealing we'd hear if the SW started paying grants to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews or whatever - or indeed to atheists - to help pay the costs of some or other rite of passage for their sprogs. Or for initiation ceremonies as a Jedi knight, or to me to buy some spliffs if I decide to join the Rastafarians.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You couldn't make this stuff up!:)

Yahew · 03-02-2012 7:17pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

I didn't realise the taxpayer is responsible for making sure other people's children don't feel left out.

Why isn't the parent responsible for this charge? How are they unable to afford it when they know years in advance that they will need it? Should the taxpayer also subsidize new Nike runners so the poor kid doesn't feel inadequate next to his other classmates who's parents can afford such luxuries? I remember when I was a kid I had a pair of ''Nicks'' runners, oh the embarrassment!! For football I had to wear my brother's boots, he's 5 years older than me, imagine my embarrassment as a goalie when I can barely kick a ball because I'm wearing boots that are way too big? Should the tax payer pay for these as well?

This "atheist" rant sounds like Thatcherism at it's worst. If the poor are too feckless to save, let them starve.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 7:18pm

700 yo yos:eek:. we need to double our support for this ritual...not cut back.

Yahew · 03-02-2012 7:19pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

These grants are actually unconstitutional. Bunreacht na HEireann contains an express prohibition on the State endowing any religion, but these grants are an indirect subsidy to the kiddy-fiddler church.:mad:

They are also discriminatory, because only one denomination benefits. Just imagine the squealing we'd hear if the SW started paying grants to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews or whatever - or indeed to atheists - to help pay the costs of some or other rite of passage for their sprogs. Or for initiation ceremonies as a Jedi knight, or to me to buy some spliffs if I decide to join the Rastafarians.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You couldn't make this stuff up!:)

Pretty sure the State would pay a hard ship fund for a bar mitzvah, were one needed. Thats what the prohibition in the constitution would mean - if the hard ship payments were for one religion, then it must be for all. Which isn't the same as an atheist, or secular solution of banning anything religious at all.

coffee_cake · 03-02-2012 7:20pm

Yahew wrote: »

This "atheist" rant sounds like Thatcherism at it's worst. If the poor are too feckless to save, let them starve.

they don't eat the dresses

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 7:24pm

bluewolf wrote: »

they don't eat the dresses

Or..... or do they!? :eek:

Yahew · 03-02-2012 7:25pm

In general, though I am not a New Atheist hating all things religious and I dont care about this issue; I do hate first communion in general. Dressing little girls up in pseudo-wedding dresses is appalling nonsense.

coffee_cake · 03-02-2012 7:28pm

Yahew wrote: »

Pretty sure the State would pay a hard ship fund for a bar mitzvah, were one needed. Thats what the prohibition in the constitution would mean - if the hard ship payments were for one religion, then it must be for all. Which isn't the same as an atheist, or secular solution of banning anything religious at all.

Nobody wants to ban it
we want to ban funding for it - especially at a time when SNAs are being cut and the country is broke
the state should not be funding religious rituals like this

Mark Hamill · 03-02-2012 7:39pm

Yahew wrote: »

New Atheist

Oh you're one of those people...

MagicMarker · 03-02-2012 7:52pm

Yahew wrote: »

This "atheist" rant sounds like Thatcherism at it's worst. If the poor are too feckless to save, let them starve.

Oh and btw, this ''atheist'' rant has nothing at all to do with atheism, it's about a bankrupt country being frivolous with money it doesn't have.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 7:56pm

3 million is cheap as chips .

how many businesses/jobs benefit from the communion ritual?

hairdressers, taxis, bouncy catsle guys, djs and hall rental. supermarkets for beer and b.b.qs toy shops..off licences...pre /during and post ritual fortunes are being spent.

and with an average 700 yo yos per kid post ritual...to blow on the highstreet...all cash...

and the church picks up the tab for performing the said ritual...staffing costs et al...the economy gets the gate receipts.

it seems the kids are bringing back nearly 3 times what is being outlayed by the state per child....and that is before we factor in what the parents and relatives are spending on goodies /clothes/taxis/etc...

Gurgle · 03-02-2012 8:28pm

Yahew wrote: »

the State would pay a hard ship fund for a bar mitzvah

Do you have anything whatsoever to support this?
Or are you just making shìt up?

eyescreamcone · 03-02-2012 8:45pm

So what's all this about nuns working as prostitutes around communion time.
Now I'm interested.

Gbear · 03-02-2012 9:51pm

If you can't afford some fancy baubles for the sake of your own beliefs then tough ****!

The sense of entitlement beggars belief.:mad:

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 10:07pm

i think the 7 yr old children of the nation are entitled to partake in this national right of passage ...and putting 3 million aside is chicken feed.

they get dressed up..visit the auld aunts uncles and cousins...and get made feel a bit special for one day.

and a few bob to treat themselves after.

id replace it with something if it ever died out.

its good for keeping family bonds going too...everyone ups their game for the sake of a little 7 yr old.

we win socially and financially...if every state handout was increased threefold by the recipient...we'd be on the horses back.

Gbear · 03-02-2012 10:18pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

i think the 7 yr old children of the nation are entitled to partake in this national right of passage

National? The last I checked we're not part of the Vatican Empire.

They're absolutely not entitled to a "day out" paid for by the state.

The point of the state giving money to poor people is for it to function as a safety net. It supposed to keep people alive, safe and healthy. It's not there to pander to some religious whim.

As someone pointed out, why don't the fabulously wealthy Catholic church cover the costs? It's a good investment as indoctrinating them nice and early will insure future generosity in donations.

Lucy8080 wrote: »

...and putting 3 million aside is chicken feed.

Why not start up a "GBear Ferrari fund"? At €300k it's only 10% of the communion payouts and it's every bit as legitimate an expense for the state.

Or I suppose we could employ 20 extra nurses.

Lucy8080 wrote: »

they get dressed up..visit the auld aunts uncles and cousins...and get made feel a bit special for one day.

That's not the states business. I suppose they could buy every child a teddy bear and everyone who's had a rough day a foot massage but that isn't what the state is for!

rccaulfield · 03-02-2012 10:25pm

State funding religious nonsense again! I'll be taking my 7 year old around to visit everyone and giving them what they would have made out of my own pocket- call it a well done for getting this far day or similar. Thats 20 seconds thinking about it, i've a few years yet to prepare. Thats the beauty of the educate together system, you don't just have to do it to fit in with the average non thinking parents child.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 10:35pm

i called it " a national right of passage" because its as much that as religious.

take a poll on how many dole recipients believe in god...and then ask if they will be giving back their xmas bonus on point of principle!

theyd laugh at ya...because religion aside...they still like to enjoy a bit of christmas cheer too. its a national as much as religious custom by this stage.

social cohesion and support of the family is in the states interest.

and i still maintain that we get great value for that 3 million.

its worth it i.m.o.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 10:53pm

raucfield...i hope educate together do come up with something similar...its a celibration of the child for me...and id hate to see any kid left out.

call it ...whatever ya like...but there is a custom in this country that 7 yr olds have enjoyed for donkeys years.

it helps bond families..and makes the kids feel good about themselves.

and if some educate together parent is struggling to dress up the kid...the state can make sure no kid gets left out.

it would be a shame if this 7 yr old day out went by the wayside.

gbee · 03-02-2012 11:11pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

..its a celibration of the child for me...and id hate to see any kid left out. call it ...whatever ya like....

I believe it was part of the Summer festival and fertility rights, the child would have been 12 though.

Very briefly, Nellie Organ in in 1908 received special permission to have Holy Communion at just 41/2 years of age' In 1910, Pope Pius X made a Church Law stating that all children could receive Holy Communion at an early age.

Before this it was 12 years of age and the Bishop [note the Bishop] would interview BOTH parents to see if THEY were good Catholics and all three had to pass a series of interviews and tests.

Further reading by googling Little Nelly of Holy God. She is directly responsible for the lowering of the age to 6 and recently this was raised to the current 7 years.

Bookworm85 · 03-02-2012 11:22pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

raucfield...i hope educate together do come up with something similar...its a celibration of the child for me...and id hate to see any kid left out.

call it ...whatever ya like...but there is a custom in this country that 7 yr olds have enjoyed for donkeys years.

it helps bond families..and makes the kids feel good about themselves.

and if some educate together parent is struggling to dress up the kid...the state can make sure no kid gets left out.

it would be a shame if this 7 yr old day out went by the wayside.

Lucy8080,

I think most people are complaining because this payment is given out as an 'exceptional need'! I would class an exceptional need as a child suddenly becoming ill and needing medicine you cannot afford, you're washing machine is broken, you have kids clothes that need washing and you have no money to buy a new one, a relative passing away and you have no money to pay for a funeral etc etc.

Parents of catholic children have approximately 7-8 years to save for this occasion. From the moment that child's head is stuck in the font, then catholic parents should be saving for their communion, confession and confirmation.

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 11:29pm

thx gbee.

ive seen the communion thing done in other countries. its not the same as ireland ..bar the religious ritual.

we have always had this thing about putting something in the hand of a child...granted our rights of passage tend to be catholic...but there is a peculiarly irish element to the way we do the after cermony....for the kid.

and most kids these days making their communion/confo...are not going to mass...neither are the parents....but its a bit like christmas for athiests...

we like it. because at the end of the day its for the kids...and they get that...and there isnt an athiest who would say withold xmas bonus for parents because those parents are athiest.

some of our customs we like...even if religion is involved. treating our kids to a dressed up day out...in which adults praise and give em presents or money....is socially cohesive...and good for society.

they tend to remember and pay it forward to the next generation of kids. its value is beyond monetary.

complaining about a bit of tax money to dress up a seven year old for a good day out...are we losing the plot.

call the day whatever ya want...do it for religious or secular or social reasons...

but lets as a state keep the custom of dressing up and celebrating the child...and giving said child the impression its valued and aprreciated by the adults in its social circle.

the memory abides.

Humans eh! · 03-02-2012 11:40pm

This is an opportunity for the catholic church to shine.*
Apparently the communion rite is very important your as a religious ritual in the lives of children born and baptised to catholic parents who attend mass on a weekly basis.
At collection time during mass (Via a handheld device) swipe your catholic card and one euro is deducted/handed over and put into a special account created at the time of your childs baptism which matures at communioin/confirmation time to pay for clothes etc, over the seven/12 years the church gains interest, the parents have no worries (provided they attend mass!) and the local economy benefits and the taxpayer (god help them) isn't burdened with another bill.
This would all depend on dedicated mass attendance throughout the life of the child and not just a display of ostentation/vulgarity etc at the crucial time.

*I am an atheist/realist

iguana · 03-02-2012 11:40pm

bluewolf wrote: »

they don't eat the dresses

I'm now imagining communion dresses made of candy floss.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-02-2012 11:43pm

Lucy8080 wrote: »

we have always had this thing about putting something in the hand of a child...granted our rights of passage tend to be catholic...but there is a peculiarly irish element to the way we do the after cermony....for the kid.

You mean, the extended family getting drunk and starting fights?
It's tradition after all.

but its a bit like christmas for athiests...

Christmas was stolen from the pagans, there have been midwinter celebrations since prehistory, so any christian who tells me I've no right to celebrate what has been celebrated for thousands of years will be politely appraised of their ignorance.

we like it. because at the end of the day its for the kids...and they get that...and there isnt an athiest who would say withold xmas bonus for parents because those parents are athiest.

Atheists have more right to a midwinter celebration than christians do! And the SW bonus has been abolished anyway. This nonsense about paying for religious ceremonies should go the same way.

some of our customs we like...even if religion is involved. treating our kids to a dressed up day out...in which adults praise and give em presents or money....is socially cohesive...and good for society.

No reason why I or anyone else should pay for some randomer's jollies.
Let their parents give up the Sky tv, jonny blues or Dutch Gold for a few weeks if they need to save up!

Sonics2k · 03-02-2012 11:43pm

I'm sorry, but no.

The communion is absolutely not an 'exceptional need'. Families being able to pay rent, electricity, gas, and food are 'exceptional needs'.

Prancing your child around for some ritualistic nonsense, when all the child is concerned about is how much money they'll get is not an exceptional need by any understanding.

It's all this Celtic Tiger nonsense from the 90's gone insane, and no family 'needs' this money, they want it, and that's the difference.

If the State is willing to provide for these communions, maybe they should also provide for other religions rituals as well, such as the Bar Mitzvah.

Humans eh! · 03-02-2012 11:44pm

This is an opportunity for the catholic church to shine.*
Apparently the communion rite is very important as a religious ritual in the lives of children born and baptised to catholic parents who attend mass on a weekly basis. (allegedly)
At collection time during mass (Via a handheld device) swipe your catholic card and one measly euro is deducted/handed over and put into a special account created at the time of your childs baptism which matures at communioin/confirmation time to pay for clothes etc, over the seven/12 years the church gains interest on the deposit, the parents have no worries (provided they attend mass!) and the local economy/dress merchants benefit and the taxpayer (god help them) isn't burdened with another bill. (1x52x7/12 =364/642)
This would all depend on dedicated mass attendance throughout the life of the child and not just a display of ostentation/vulgarity etc at the crucial time.

*I am an atheist/realist

Lucy8080 · 03-02-2012 11:46pm

thx bookworm.

and i would say they are missing the bigger picture. most/or a significant percentage of those putting their kid through communion these days are not particularly religious. but they would like the child to have the day out all the same.

religion is tainting this. if it was a purely cultural custom for seven yr old...nobody would have a problem with 3 million set aside to cover hardship.

its not a necessity...or exceptional need....but i think we sometimes know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

i bet there are some here complaining...who will go out and put a few notes in a card for their niece nephew next communion day...and all because they were a kid themselves.

and i bet they smile at the thought of their own day out way back in the recesses of their memory.

because they funded an action man or bike or barbie...or their first packet of fags and can of bulmers...some here i bet where rebels when they were seven.

but ...part of the day was having new shoes and new dress/shirt and tie...the rest is just a good day in a childs life at the age of seven.

id like to see the dress up part covered just in case. the social benefits outweigh 3 million.

State spending €3million on communion rituals

Comments