Martin McGuinness to be named as Sinn Féins candidate for the Presidential Election?

steddyeddy · 16-09-2011 9:46pm

hmmm wrote: »

I don't know about that, but they certainly were major contributors to continuing it long past the point where it had any justification.

We may have a Sinn Fein president in the future, but the memories of Enniskillen, the deaths of two children in Warrington and the bombings in London & Manchester are still too fresh.

Indeed they really need to clarify what their current position on these atrocites are. Military target wont cut it anymore.

blahfckingblah · 16-09-2011 9:47pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That comment had nothing to so with grammar, and you know it.

It was the fact that most SF people refuse point-blank to refer to this state by its name, therefore having one of them as its president is absolutely ridiculous and objectionable.

Would America stand for having a president that referred to their country as "North America" or "Southern Canada" ?

http://www.boards.ie/search/?q=the+North&f=&subforums=1&u=84799&title=&threads=&date_from=&date_to=&sort=newest a list of places where you refer to Northern Ireland as "the North", and one slice of humble pie to go.

COYW · 16-09-2011 9:47pm

Baralis1 wrote: »

Did she not work as a lecturer here? I could be mistaken.

She was Reid Professor in Law in Trinity alright.

round tower huntsman · 16-09-2011 9:49pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The name of the state is Éire/Ireland. Republicans view Ireland as a single nation, comprising of the entire Island, as does the constitution of this Republic

actually i think your wrong there. as part of the gfa we dropped articles 2 and 3, we gave away our claim on the osc. its no longer in our constitution.
i stand to be corrected.

COYW · 16-09-2011 9:53pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The name of the state is Éire/Ireland. Republicans view Ireland as a single nation, comprising of the entire Island, as does the constitution of this Republic

Only those who rejected the GFA could do so. Anyone, who accepted the GFA agreed to give up that title. Northern Ireland is completely separate.

Liam Byrne · 16-09-2011 9:56pm

round tower huntsman wrote: »

actually i think your wrong there. as part of the gfa we dropped articles 2 and 3, we gave away our claim on the osc. its no longer in our constitution.
i stand to be corrected.

SF will never let the small matter of facts get in the way of their agenda, which is part of the problem I have with them.

If you mention the GFA to them they'll point out that that means the criminals were released, but they conveniently ignore the fact that you just pointed out.

To them the "wish" is their reality......despite the fact that my "wish" would be to have all those who murdered innocents still in jail.

I had to accept the compromise, but SF refuse to.

Mr.Micro · 16-09-2011 9:57pm

It will be interesting to see how Martin McGuinness gets on and if he is elected. I for one would not vote for him. If he is elected I feel it will be a step back for our country, although the President role IMO is largely symbolic.

dlofnep · 16-09-2011 9:57pm

round tower huntsman wrote: »

actually i think your wrong there. as part of the gfa we dropped articles 2 and 3, we gave away our claim on the osc. its no longer in our constitution.
i stand to be corrected.

I am not wrong. Our constitutional claim as a matter of default was dropped, but the constitution still refers to the Island of Ireland as the Irish nation.

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation.

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland

Note that it is very carefully worded to state the 'Irish nation', rather than the Irish 'state'. The aspiration for a united Ireland is constitutionally affirmed.

Sunnyisland · 16-09-2011 9:58pm

round tower huntsman wrote: »

actually i think your wrong there. as part of the gfa we dropped articles 2 and 3, we gave away our claim on the osc. its no longer in our constitution.
i stand to be corrected.

This is what it says
Under the terms of the 1998 Belfast Agreement, Articles 2 and 3 were amended to remove any reference to a "national territory", and to state that a united Ireland should only come about with the consent of majorities in both the jurisdictions on the island of Ireland. The amended Articles also guarantee the people of Northern Ireland the right to be a "part of the Irish Nation", and to Irish citizenship.

anymore · 16-09-2011 9:58pm

round tower huntsman wrote: »

actually i think your wrong there. as part of the gfa we dropped articles 2 and 3, we gave away our claim on the osc. its no longer in our constitution.
i stand to be corrected.

No I am afraid you are wrong. Aericles 2 and 3 were amended, not dropped:
As amended they grant the right to be "part of the Irish Nation" to all of those born on the island of Ireland and express a desire for the peaceful political unification of the island subject to the consent of the people of Northern Ireland. Before 1999, Articles 2 and 3 made the claim that the whole island formed one "national territory".

RandomName2 · 16-09-2011 9:59pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The name of the state is Éire/Ireland. Republicans view Ireland as a single nation, comprising of the entire Island, as does the constitution of this Republic. So, to use colloquial terms which highlight that the Island is partitioned is perfectly acceptable and is used by many politicians in Ireland outside of Sinn Féin who often use the phrase 'the north of the country'.

You're going to have to get over your hang-up on such trivial bollocks such as terms like 'the south/the north/6 counties/' etc... It comes across as petty.

I am not terribly sure who has the hangup; as Sinn Fein has traditionally (SF4 and 5) ignored the legitimacy of the Dail and has considered both the civil authorities and armed forces of Ireland to be legitimate targets for their armed wing. When a party has, from pragmatic reasons, held its nose to enter your parliament, it is not surprising when people attribute their apparently sloppy engagement with the legal definitions of the states within which they reside, as a very deliberate, and possibly sinister symbolic gesture.

The Troubles have taught the island of Ireland to forgive and forget.

Perhaps forgive is the wrong word for former paramilitary members and were tainted at the very least, by association, but we can at least tolerate.

Forgetting members of the Old Guard such as McGunniess would also be a step forward, not least for SF itself; who are still in the eyes of many the inheritors of a bloody legacy.

anymore · 16-09-2011 10:00pm

It is reassuring to so see many posters know their constitution.

dlofnep · 16-09-2011 10:00pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

SF will never let the small matter of facts get in the way of their agenda, which is part of the problem I have with them.

I have already highlighted that this is not a fact.

Le King · 16-09-2011 10:04pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

I am not terribly sure who has the hangup; as Sinn Fein has traditionally (SF4 and 5) ignored the legitimacy of the Dail and has considered both the civil authorities and armed forces of Ireland to be legitimate targets for their armed wing. When a party has, from pragmatic reasons, held its nose to enter your parliament, it is not surprising when people attribute their apparently sloppy engagement with the legal definitions of the states within which they reside, as a very deliberate, and possibly sinister symbolic gesture.

The Troubles have taught the island of Ireland to forgive and forget.

Perhaps forgive is the wrong word for former paramilitary members and were tainted at the very least, by association, but we can at least tolerate.

Forgetting members of the Old Guard such as McGunniess would also be a step forward, not least for SF itself; who are still in the eyes of many the inheritors of a bloody legacy.

I've read some crap here, but, my god.
McGuinness is the outstanding candidate here by far. Will get my vote anyway.

A Primal Nut · 16-09-2011 10:05pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

This is possibly true. He has also spoiled any chance of Mary Davies or Sean Gallagher having a chance at winning, they'll get squeezed. They should drop out now to save some money.

McGunniess will just say sure wasn't Dev in the IRA when asked about his IRA past and he has a point.

I don't think he has a point. The IRA during early 20th century is different to the one during the troubles. There are many reasons for this; but nobody ever seems to explain it, even the media just take it for granted that they are different without really explaining it.

The IRA of the early 20th century did not:

1) Bomb indiscriminately with vague warnings or none at all. Even De Valera cracked down on the IRA when they began a bombing campain in the late 1930s.
2) Target Protestants because of their religion
3) Engage in punishment beatings or kneecapping. Michael Collins specifically opposed this
4) Engage in Proxy bombings :mad:

All of these and more occurred during the troubles under direct orders from the IRA army council which included Adams, McGuinness and Ferris, and some actions were carried out directly by them.

If you are prepared to forgive them for that then fine, but I wish people would stop using the early 20th century IRA to compare. I've often seen Gerry Adams compare himself to Michael Collins and his comrades, and nobody seems willing to challenge him on it or tell him the difference.

http://sarasmichaelcollinssite.com/an_illustrious_career
http://patrickmacmanus.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/de-valera-crushing-the-irish-republican-army-ira/

Cicero · 16-09-2011 10:08pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He would be an excellent choice imo,

As OP, it would be helpful to this thread if you documented your reasons

round tower huntsman · 16-09-2011 10:10pm

yeah so we gave up the claim over the osc's and accepted it as british territory and that britian had sovereignty over the northern part of our island. if britain is sovereign in the osc how can it be part of the irish nation??
thats why republicans reject britains sovereignty in ireland and claim the whole 32 c's as the irish nation.

Wolfe Tone · 16-09-2011 10:19pm

Cicero wrote: »

As OP, it would be helpful to this thread if you documented your reasons

Perhaps you should read the rest of my post?

Cicero · 16-09-2011 10:21pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Perhaps you should read the rest of my post?

I did...my question stands.

Bergkamp 10 · 16-09-2011 10:21pm

He will get my vote because as of yet, he is the best man for the job and will do it well.

Simple as.

The only other worthy candidate is Micheal D Higgins. Even then, McGuiness would probably represent the country better than Higgins anyway.

As for the rest, all celebrity dross.

anymore · 16-09-2011 10:24pm

round tower huntsman wrote: »

yeah so we gave up the claim over the osc's and accepted it as british territory and that britian had sovereignty over the northern part of our island. if britain is sovereign in the osc how can it be part of the irish nation??
thats why republicans reject britains sovereignty in ireland and claim the whole 32 c's as the irish nation.

No the Constitution recognises that the irish nation is actually a seperate entity from the actual physical land of ireland and that a part of that land mass is effectively under British rule for the moment and will be until a united Ireland is brought about peacefully by the consent of a majority of people in both jurisdictions.
Article 3.2 allows for institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between the two jurisdictions to be establised.
Aerricle two, as amended, allows everybody born on the island of Ireland the entitlement to be part of the irish nation.

Pompey Magnus · 16-09-2011 10:30pm

A Primal Nut wrote: »

I've often seen Gerry Adams compare himself to Michael Collins and his comrades, and nobody seems willing to challenge him on it or tell him the difference.

Is this the same Michael Collins who ordered members of his squad to execute two Catholic girls because they were romantically involved with two British soldiers? You, like many Irish people, seem happy to gloss over the nasty aspects of the old IRA in order to try and differentiate them from the Provos.

Dr Galen · 16-09-2011 10:32pm

Before we disappear down a constitutional rabbit hole can people please remember both OP and the main topic at hand please. I'm not sure that longwinded discussions on the correct terms for various places are really OT tbh.

round tower huntsman · 16-09-2011 10:32pm

britain is sovereign in the osc's, thats fact. it wasnt the peace process that allowed lizzie to visit a while back, she refused until we accpeted her sovereignty in the osc's, dropping, eh amending, 2&3 allowed for her visit.

blahfckingblah · 16-09-2011 10:32pm

Cicero wrote: »

I did...my question stands.

he means this :

He has proved himself a very capable statesman and he has handled the difficult position of deputy first minister with ease. He is a great republican and Irishman.

round tower huntsman · 16-09-2011 10:33pm

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Is this the same Michael Collins who ordered members of his squad to execute two Catholic girls because they were romantically involved with two British soldiers? You, like many Irish people, seem happy to gloss over the nasty aspects of the old IRA in order to try and differentiate them from the Provos.

the provos and psf people are pretty apt at doing that now. "the good old ira v's bad new ira" is as old as the struggle it self.

anymore · 16-09-2011 10:34pm

round tower huntsman wrote: »

britain is sovereign in the osc's, thats fact. it wasnt the peace process that allowed lizzie to visit a while back, she refused until we accpeted her sovereignty in the osc's, dropping, eh amending, 2&3 allowed for her visit.

She is jsut like a vintiloquists dummy and goes where she is told and says what she is told to say.

anymore · 16-09-2011 10:35pm

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Is this the same Michael Collins who ordered members of his squad to execute two Catholic girls because they were romantically involved with two British soldiers? You, like many Irish people, seem happy to gloss over the nasty aspects of the old IRA in order to try and differentiate them from the Provos.

Yes so what ?

round tower huntsman · 16-09-2011 10:36pm

anymore wrote: »

She is jsut like a vintiloquists dummy and goes where she is told and says what she is told to say.

insults?? when the truth hurts attack the player not the ball eh?

Cicero · 16-09-2011 10:39pm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

he means this :

^^^^^..no.."he" mean this...below is original OP post....I have asked for reasons why M.McG should be president...OP has asserted that these are his reasons.....I see nothing here in this post that merits presidential consideration.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Rumors all over twitter and elsewhere that he will be named as Sinn Féins presidential candidate this evening.

He would be an excellent choice imo, he would certainly get my vote and he should preform decently in the election, although I wouldn't expect him to win.

He would be the perfect man to oversee the centenary of the Easter rising. He has proved himself a very capable statesman and he has handled the difficult position of deputy first minister with ease. He is a great republican and Irishman.

Even Reverend David Latimer, a Presbyterian minister, has said that Martin McGuinness is a "great leader". He would be a great president too.

The Sindo certainly won't like this election!

blahfckingblah · 16-09-2011 10:42pm

Cicero wrote: »

^^^^^..no.."he" mean this...below is original OP post....I have asked for reasons why M.McG should be president...OP has asserted that these are his reasons.....I see nothing here in this post that merits presidential consideration.

when i said he i was refering to Wolfe tone not you, and I quoted the relevant statement.

Frogeye · 16-09-2011 10:50pm

I detest SF but for some strange reason Martin is the first candidate that jumped out at me. For some reason I seem drawn to him. I am well aware of what the Provos did and stood so I'm confused but it looks like he will be getting my vote! I can't explain it.

As an aside, what would people think if the UUP or DUP were by some chance to put a candidate forward? Just putting it out there.....I guess whoever they might select would be seen as a traitor to his/her own community and there would be issues getting them a nomination and doubtless the unionest parties have no interest in doing it anyway but.....Ian Paisley for president?

anymore · 16-09-2011 10:53pm

Frogeye wrote: »

I detest SF but for some strange reason Martin is the first candidate that jumped out at me. For some reason I seem drawn to him. I am well aware of what the Provos did and stood so I'm confused but it looks like he will be getting my vote! I can't explain it.

As an aside, what would people think if the UUP or DUP were by some chance to put a candidate forward? Just putting it out there.....I guess whoever they might select would be seen as a traitor to his/her own community and there would be issues getting them a nomination and doubtless the unionest parties have no interest in doing it anyway but.....Ian Paisley for president?

Truth be tols, there are members of the Unionist Community who do apply for Repubic of Ireland passports because sometimes it is more convenient to travel on the irish passport than on a UK one !

Wolfe Tone · 16-09-2011 10:59pm

Cicero wrote: »

^^^^^..no.."he" mean this...below is original OP post....I have asked for reasons why M.McG should be president...OP has asserted that these are his reasons.....I see nothing here in this post that merits presidential consideration.

I think he has proved himself as a great statesman, he is capable of working well with people totally opposed to everything he stands for, he just got back from a trade mission to the US, he is perfectly used to rubbing shoulders with world figures, from British PMs to Nelson Mandela, to American presidents, he has met them all and handled himself excellently. He is well liked abroad and the man himself is a friendly and likable bloke. He certainly has the skill-set and experience that a president needs. If elected he will be sure to use the position, as McAleese has to a degree, to build relations across all divides in Ireland. He is a very experienced politician and he has done quite well as deputy first minister.

On top of that he is a republican and I share many views with him, in addition he is sure to highlight the cause of the disenfranchised Irish men and women in Ireland who cannot vote in the presidential election. I think that he will be an ideal man to oversee the centenary of 1916.

They are some of the reasons why I think he is a great candidate.

Sunnyisland · 16-09-2011 11:02pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think he has proved himself as a great statesman, he is capable of working well with people totally opposed to everything he stands for, he just got back from a trade mission to the US, he is perfectly used to rubbing shoulders with world figures, from British PMs to Nelson Mandela, to American presidents, he has met them all and handled himself excellently. He is well liked abroad and the man himself is a friendly and likable bloke. He certainly has the skill-set and experience that a president needs. If elected he will be sure to use the position, as McAleese has to a degree, to build relations across all divides in Ireland. He is a very experienced politician and he has done quite well as deputy first minister.

On top of that he is a republican and I share many views with him, in addition he is sure to highlight the cause of the disenfranchised Irish men and women in Ireland who cannot vote in the presidential election. I think that he will be an ideal man to oversee the centenary of 1916.

They are some of the reasons why I think he is a great candidate.

Good points there wolfetone .

Cicero · 16-09-2011 11:02pm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

when i said he i was refering to Wolfe tone not you, and I quoted the relevant statement.

not starting an argument with you...but I did ask the OP to assert his position as to his reasons why M McG should be president....he referred me to his original post...I saw nothing in his original post that would merit such a claim...you quoted only part of the OP's original post which was inaccurate...I quoted the entire post above...

edit...just reading OP's response now...let me time for reply please....

blahfckingblah · 16-09-2011 11:06pm

Cicero wrote: »

not starting an argument with you...but I did ask the OP to assert his position as to his reasons why M McG should be president....he referred me to his original post...I saw nothing in his original post that would merit such a claim...you quoted only part of the OP's original post which was inaccurate...I quoted the entire post above...

edit...just reading OP's response now...let me time for reply please....

brick wall ,,,head ,,,bang.... On topic I have met him a few times and he seems to be a good man, talks away, knows his stuff. Hes miles ahead of Gerry in my books

anymore · 16-09-2011 11:07pm

I wont be voting for him, but I have to say one of my reactions on hearing this was to take a perverse pleasure in the hope that Bertie Ahern would be only infuriated at this news.;)

Cicero · 16-09-2011 11:18pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think he has .....................

I'm glad you have cleared that up OP

...you are now putting forward more reasons than you did originally for M McG as president..yet you referred me to your original post when I asked you for reasons..so...I will now look at these...

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think he has proved himself as a great statesman,

In what way OP?

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

he is capable of working well with people totally opposed to everything he stands for,

...but what has that got to do with the Presidency of Ireland?

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

he just got back from a trade mission to the US, he is perfectly used to rubbing shoulders with world figures, from British PMs to Nelson Mandela, to American presidents, he has met them all and handled himself excellently.

yes..I am being flippant here but...let's vote Bono so...

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He is well liked abroad and the man himself is a friendly and likable bloke.

seriously...no...seriously....^^^^...that's an argument for being President of Ireland?

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He certainly has the skill-set and experience that a president needs.

and that would be what exactly?

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think that he will be an ideal man to oversee the centenary of 1916.

why?

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He is a very experienced politician and he has done quite well as deputy first minister.

so how does that help the Republic of Ireland?

Wolfe Tone · 16-09-2011 11:19pm

Why dont you tell me what you think qualifies people to be president?

Cicero · 16-09-2011 11:21pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why dont you tell me what you think qualifies people to be president?

It's not my thread.....it's yours.

Foghladh · 16-09-2011 11:25pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

in addition he is sure to highlight the cause of the disenfranchised Irish men and women in Ireland who cannot vote in the presidential election. QUOTE]

Would that be restricted to voting in the presidential elections do you know?

blahfckingblah · 16-09-2011 11:25pm

Cicero wrote: »

It's not my thread.....it's yours.

Its a discussion not an interrogation, I'm interested in knowing what your opinion is?

Cicero · 16-09-2011 11:30pm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

Its a discussion not an interrogation, I'm interested in knowing what your opinion is?

with due respect..my original and continuing query and purpose for posting in this thread rests with the OP...happy to post my opinion in another thread but not this one..

Brian? · 16-09-2011 11:35pm

sparkling sea wrote: »

Marty is that what his followers call him!!!

I have no idea what his followers call him. It's what I call him.

Seems like a lovely woman and I do think she did a brillant job, but I would have prepared if she had actually come from our country, given that she was the figure head for it. And yes - I would definitely have prepared is the Republic of Ireland Presidential salary had gone to a citizen of this country - by the by that doesn't mean they have to be born here to me - be the entitlement thing just because your from Northern Ireland -sad.

I don't think people from Northern Ireland should automatically be entitled Republic of Irish passports, anymore than I think I should be entitled to a Northern Irish passport or a passpert to any other country.

So you think Irish citizens whould have their citizenship revoked. Nice of you. What about people born outside the state to Irish parents or grandparents?

Calling someones opinion silly just because you don't agree with is stupid and to IMO stupid truimphs silly everytime - but then intolerence is another historical feature of Sinn Fein supporters - yet another reason I'd rather they stayed in Northern Ireland :rolleyes:

It is silly. It's silly because Martin McGuiness is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and therefore elligible to stand for elecetion in this country. Not voting for someone perfectly entitled to stand for election because you don't think they should be a citizen in the first place doesn't make a lick of sense. If you don't agree with his politics, then fine, don't vote for him.

You have no idea what my politics are by the way. Where did I say I have ever voted for Sinn Fein, or am ever likely to? You have made that assumption. To accuse me of intolerence is also laughable, coming from someone who would deny the right of citizenship to people born in Northern Ireland.

Moonfruit · 17-09-2011 12:03am

Out of what is on offer, Mr Mcguinness is the best choice.
He's done a lot for Irish politics and the Island of Ireland which what we are regardless of those who don't believe in thus.
The winds of positive change are blowing our way, cast aside thoughts of recession and embrace our family that is Northern Ireland, accept back our prodigal son.
President McGuinness
'A president to be proud of'

ninjasurfer1 · 17-09-2011 12:32am

briankeating wrote: »

It's silly because Martin McGuiness is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and therefore elligible to stand for elecetion in this country.

When did he become a citizen of the Republic of Ireland?

I know he's entitled to be part of the irish nation, but when did he become part of the political entity known as the Republic. (He's from Derry).

Not having a go, by the way. Just curious about whether being a citizen of the irish nation entitles someone to automatic membership of the republic.

Brian? · 17-09-2011 12:37am

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

When did he become a citizen of the Republic of Ireland?

I know he's entitled to be part of the irish nation, but when did he become part of the political entity known as the Republic. (He's from Derry).

Not having a go, by the way. Just curious about whether being a citizen of the irish nation entitles someone to automatic membership of the republic.

I'm not sure how to answer this. I have no idea what you mean by "Irish nation".

The official name for the 26 counties is Poblacht na hÉireann/Republic of Ireland. Anyone born in the 6 counties is entitled to citizenship of the Republic of Ireland.

It doesn't matter where he was born, the law states he can hold an Irish passport and is therefore a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.

Sunnyisland · 17-09-2011 12:39am

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

When did he become a citizen of the Republic of Ireland?

I know he's entitled to be part of the irish nation, but when did he become part of the political entity known as the Republic. (He's from Derry).

Not having a go, by the way. Just curious about whether being a citizen of the irish nation entitles someone to automatic membership of the republic.

As far as Irish law is concerned, there is no difficulty about holding Irish citizenship and at the same time citizenship of another State. If you were born in Ireland prior to 1 January 2005 then you are entitled to be an Irish citizen.Dont know whether its automatic or you have to apply,presume you would have to apply.

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 12:39am

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

When did he become a citizen of the Republic of Ireland?

I know he's entitled to be part of the irish nation, but when did he become part of the political entity known as the Republic. (He's from Derry).

Not having a go, by the way. Just curious about whether being a citizen of the irish nation entitles someone to automatic membership of the republic.

Are we really going to go down this road of "he's not Irish"? Really? He is entitled to citizenship, as is everyone born in Ireland, and he has an Irish passport too.

Martin McGuinness to be named as Sinn Féins candidate for the Presidential Election?

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