Can we have peaceful, national protests yet?

norrie rugger · 27-03-2014 11:25am

There will be no protests until they are not hijacked by the opposition or flakey single issue groups.

People get sick of some random self serving FF politician (or FG/Labour when they were opposition parties) trying to take over and just get publicity (of the Sinn Fein types that always turn up)

Then you get the likes of the People Before Profit crusties that drag everything down to the level of "Won't somebody think of the children!!"

sarumite · 27-03-2014 11:54am

Banjo String wrote: »

I also don't buy this whole "inherited mess from previous Govts" either.

Can you expand on this? I really don't know how you could argue otherwise.

norrie rugger · 27-03-2014 11:58am

sarumite wrote: »

Can you expand on this? I really don't know how you could argue otherwise.

Yeah seems a bit strange.

So country is in a ****bowl coming up to General Election. Does he mean that the day after a GE nothing is the fault of the previous shower?

jdawson · 27-03-2014 12:08pm

sarumite wrote: »

Can you expand on this? I really don't know how you could argue otherwise.

norrie rugger wrote: »

Yeah seems a bit strange.

So country is in a ****bowl coming up to General Election. Does he mean that the day after a GE nothing is the fault of the previous shower?

I would assume the idea is not that nothing has been inherited from the previous crowd, but rather at some point the current government must take responsibility for their own actions instead of always pointing the finger of blame elsewhere.

sarumite · 27-03-2014 12:20pm

jdawson wrote: »

I would assume the idea is not that nothing has been inherited from the previous crowd, but rather at some point the current government must take responsibility for their own actions instead of always pointing the finger of blame elsewhere.

If someone is going to criticise the government for making tax increases or spending cuts, then they should do so within the context of why those cuts are being made. Unfortunately our opposition are too busy trying to score political points than making succinct arguments or offering practical alternatives.

norrie rugger · 27-03-2014 12:29pm

jdawson wrote: »

I would assume the idea is not that nothing has been inherited from the previous crowd, but rather at some point the current government must take responsibility for their own actions instead of always pointing the finger of blame elsewhere.

It took FF 10 years to ruin the country, you expect anything good to come out of the first term?

I whole heartedly disagree with the WAY that FG/Lab are doing things but the reason WHY is clear, and that is the previous government of FF

hatrickpatrick · 27-03-2014 5:15pm

comongethappy wrote: »

Straw man stuff.

You claim its "not about parties".

What is it about then.

The structure of government, and the ethical standards expected of those in office when dealing with government business, especially those where there is a clear conflict of interest.

Please tell everyone YOUR form of government (that will work & is not fantastical).

Once again, how about we start with more stringent criteria for the type of behaviour which would automatically cost a minister their post? Since any time I raise multiple issues people cherry pick which ones to answer, let's take that one first before discussing any others. What say you? As I said in a previous post, do you agree or disagree that James Reilly's primary care centre shenanigans should have been a red card issue? Or Alan Shatter's behaviour in recent months?

And if not, then what in your opinion is the threshold beyond which sacking a minister should transition from a Tapiseach's discretion to a statutory requirement?

Then tell us about what you are doing to implement it.

Right now I'm talking to people about it to gauge interest, and I'm very seriously considering forming my own party when I'm finished in college, or at the very least a pressure group which is something I could probably do while also still doing my degree. As I said before, I will do neither of these things without first doing some market research - suggestions that there should be a fully fledged movement before it can even be discussed are absolutely ludicrous.

comongethappy · 27-03-2014 6:24pm

Shatter = gone
Reilly = gone.
(IMO).

however my opinion is irrelevant to the thrust of the thread.

I'm just wondering what impotent online whinging about the government & the structure of our democracy achieves?

Especially when, as you mention, you have nothing better to offer readers here as way of a solution.

jdawson · 27-03-2014 6:56pm

sarumite wrote: »

If someone is going to criticise the government for making tax increases or spending cuts, then they should do so within the context of why those cuts are being made. Unfortunately our opposition are too busy trying to score political points than making succinct arguments or offering practical alternatives.

norrie rugger wrote: »

It took FF 10 years to ruin the country, you expect anything good to come out of the first term?

I whole heartedly disagree with the WAY that FG/Lab are doing things but the reason WHY is clear, and that is the previous government of FF

As has been stated by others already, dissatisfaction with the current government is not just a result of taxes and cuts. Nobody is oblivious to the financial situation that the country is in. The litany of scandals, whether related to the Gardai, Irish Water, whatever, is horrendous.

Banjo String · 27-03-2014 7:05pm

comongethappy wrote: »

Shatter = gone
O'Reilly = gone.
(IMO).

however my opinion is irrelevant to the thrust of the thread.

I'm just wondering what impotent online whinging about the government & the structure of our democracy achieves?

Especially when, as you mention, you have nothing better to offer readers here as way of a solution.

Which O'Reilly

comongethappy · 27-03-2014 7:14pm

Banjo String wrote: »

Which O'Reilly

Android predictive screwing me over.

jmayo · 27-03-2014 7:15pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's nothing to protest about. I have food in my belly an clothes on my back sure what else would I want?

Pretty good actually. We're well on the way to recovery.

I hope you are being sarcastic.
Why oh why does this remind me of the days of bertie when shure the fact that the country was tied, in ultimately a death spiral, to construction was nothing to worry about since shure wasn't everyone doing well and their gaff was worth 3 times what they paid for it.

Have we learned nothing ?
Over on another thread Scofflaw was proffering the idea that dumping all the bank debt on the taxpayers would cause them to pay closer attention to how the country was run from a banking financial perspective.
And he probably wondered why I was so sceptical and cynical. :rolleyes:

Phoebas wrote: »

And you'll get that opportunity at the next general election.
In the meantime, he is the democratically elected Minister for Justice.

Excuse me, but he was not elected as a minister of justice, he was elected as a TD.
He was then picked by his party leader and the Taoiseach to be a minister.
BTW your argument stinks of the Russian line on the ex Ukrainian president.
Once elected never to be challenged ehhh ?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Exactly as Phoebas has said, Shatter is the rightful Minister for Justice and you're just going to have to put up with that until April 2016 when you will get the chance to vote against his party. Things are getting better now and I for one won't put that at risk just to give some people a chance to vent.

I might be labelled by some around here as being pro Fine Gael and I would have been to a fair degree, but the actions of shatter have been reprehensible.

We hear ministers coming out and praising whistleblowers, yet their colleague shatter and his pet poodle callinan character assassinated, isolated and belittled them for daring to stand up and tell the truth.
Their actions have resulted in making sure the next would be whistleblower will not just think twice but think a thousand times before putting their head above the parapet.

While I would have liked to see shatter on his crusade against the legal profession in this country, I think his actions on this matter stink.

So much for bringing in new policies and getting rid of non performing ministers.

And as for nothing to protest, I can't believe that no one can see the dishing out of taxpayer funds to certain people who are unable, either through choice or circumstance, to repay their mortgages is not a major concern to a lot of people in this country.
With the way the mortgage debt writeoffs are being secretly handled there is a damm good chance that the best part of a hundred million of taxpayer backed funds will find their way as tax free gifts into some people's hands, whilst they continue to enjoy a home that the rest of us can probably only dream of.

Bullshít to the crapology that things are grand and that the curent crowd are doing a great job. :mad:

sarumite · 27-03-2014 8:59pm

jdawson wrote: »

As has been stated by others already, dissatisfaction with the current government is not just a result of taxes and cuts. Nobody is oblivious to the financial situation that the country is in. The litany of scandals, whether related to the Gardai, Irish Water, whatever, is horrendous.

The 'litany' of scandals? I am not the biggest fan of this government, but A 'litany of scandals' is overblowing a tad. I mean the Gardai scandal is as much a legacy of the previous government as it is this one and Irish water, while scandalous, is hardly a scandal. I have dissatisfaction with this government, as I would with any government. In general you should always want your government to do better. This government have handled some aspect quite poorly. However, I think some peoples expectations on what they expect from a government really need to be tempered somewhat.

renegademaster · 27-03-2014 10:33pm

sarumite wrote: »

The 'litany' of scandals? I am not the biggest fan of this government, but A 'litany of scandals' is overblowing a tad. I mean the Gardai scandal is as much a legacy of the previous government as it is this one and Irish water, while scandalous, is hardly a scandal. I have dissatisfaction with this government, as I would with any government. In general you should always want your government to do better. This government have handled some aspect quite poorly. However, I think some peoples expectations on what they expect from a government really need to be tempered somewhat.

so your memory extends as far back as the gardai and irish water scandal, right at you've written one of those memories off as a fianna fail scandal even though shatter has stood over it all the last few years and he's well and truly made a flippin mess of it,

come on now, i'm sure you could remember a whole lot more scandals since fine gael/labour came to power and when ya do, add them all up and come up with a mamoth excuse to brush them all over with a nice gloss and look forward to adding to that pile of $hite regularly out of fine gael/labour until april 2016 when we send them all on their way with full dail term pensions and having creamed a fortune from us for 5 years of blatent corruption and cryonism!!

whoopdefcukindoo!!

twowheelsgood · 27-03-2014 10:41pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As I said in a previous post, do you agree or disagree that James Reilly's primary care centre shenanigans should have been a red card issue?

The difficulty of course is that those with the authority to issue him a red card for this (his constituents), far from giving him a red card will take a polar opposite view. Substantial brownie points will have been accrued by Minister Reilly here. Such behaviour doesn’t threaten his political future, it secures it.

And this is not peculiar to that minister, or the current government or even this nation. Keeping your constituents sweet seems to me to be a universal trait in democracies. Surely you notice the glee here with which almost all will greet the appointment of a TD from their own constituency as a minister? Or do you think it is just local pride as play? Why do you suppose that the big upsets at general election time is when a minister loses their seat?

To change this you will need to have constituents who will object to “their” minister pulling strokes for the benefit of their constituents at the expense of the wider populace. Can you cite even one example where such a stance was ever taken?

Demanding high standards from public office is fine and noble, but if it requires that gravity be compelled to cause objects to fall up rather than down then maybe this is a battle that idealism will just have to concede to realism.

twowheelsgood · 27-03-2014 10:46pm

renegademaster wrote: »

…fine gael/labour until april 2016 when we send them all on their way with full dail term pensions and having creamed a fortune from us for 5 years of blatent corruption and cryonism!!

You might want to brace yourself for the real possibility that the current government could be re-elected after the next general election! And if they are not, the next government will almost certainly be led by FF.

I’m afraid your bad humour caused of the people elected to govern this state will likely continue for several more years!

oscarBravo · 27-03-2014 11:20pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

To change this you will need to have constituents who will object to “their” minister pulling strokes for the benefit of their constituents at the expense of the wider populace.

...or - my personal preference - an appointed cabinet drawn from outside the ranks of the elected representatives, but answerable to the Dáil both through confirmation hearings and in committee on an ongoing basis.

hatrickpatrick · 28-03-2014 12:20pm

sarumite wrote: »

The 'litany' of scandals? I am not the biggest fan of this government, but A 'litany of scandals' is overblowing a tad.

I'd certainly call it a litany. When I have a bit more time later I'll type up a bullet point list of scandals over the last couple of years if you like

I mean the Gardai scandal is as much a legacy of the previous government as it is this one

The scandals here are not the events themselves, but Shatter's appalling reaction to them and the government's refusal to break ranks with one of their own in the name of the greater good. That's what this is about.

and Irish water, while scandalous, is hardly a scandal.

Best sentence ever. "The attack, while atrocious, was hardly an atrocity." "The incident, while calamitous, was hardly a calamity." "The body part exposed, while nippular, was hardly a nipple."
.....ok sorry got a bit carried a way there, this is getting a little weird

Point is, I think we simply have different criteria for scandal. If we're going to be paying through the nose for something as basic as water, then that money damn well better not be spent on more effing cronyism. How such obscene payments to consultants while pretending to be all about the environment etc etc etc can be regarded as anything but a scandal is beyond me.

I have dissatisfaction with this government, as I would with any government.

Does that not suggest to you that the system is the problem and not whatever government we install into it?

In general you should always want your government to do better. This government have handled some aspect quite poorly. However, I think some peoples expectations on what they expect from a government really need to be tempered somewhat.

I expect a high standard of integrity, ethics, and above all accountability from my government. We have none of these three vital criteria in Ireland. That's what I'm advocating a protest about.
Does that really make me a loony, crusty, muppet or eejit as so many want to suggest?

hatrickpatrick · 28-03-2014 12:27pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

The difficulty of course is that those with the authority to issue him a red card for this (his constituents), far from giving him a red card will take a polar opposite view. Substantial brownie points will have been accrued by Minister Reilly here. Such behaviour doesn’t threaten his political future, it secures it.

Except he's a national minister, so it shouldn't be up to his constituents, it should be up to the whole country.

And this is not peculiar to that minister, or the current government or even this nation. Keeping your constituents sweet seems to me to be a universal trait in democracies.

Agreed, which is why we need to reform the system so that national politics are as untangled from local issues as they possibly can be. You can't completely untangle them, but you can certainly untangle them far more than we've done in Ireland.

Surely you notice the glee here with which almost all will greet the appointment of a TD from their own constituency as a minister? Or do you think it is just local pride as play? Why do you suppose that the big upsets at general election time is when a minister loses their seat?

To change this you will need to have constituents who will object to “their” minister pulling strokes for the benefit of their constituents at the expense of the wider populace. Can you cite even one example where such a stance was ever taken?

Or, once a minister is appointed, it becomes a national issue. So if we have some mechanism for the public to call for a minister's head, it should be a national mechanism, not a constituency one.

Demanding high standards from public office is fine and noble, but if it requires that gravity be compelled to cause objects to fall up rather than down then maybe this is a battle that idealism will just have to concede to realism.

I don't agree - it requires new laws and structures, which is something we don't like to think about in Ireland but we tend to find later that it was a good idea on the rare occasions we give it a shot

renegademaster · 28-03-2014 12:56pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

You might want to brace yourself for the real possibility that the current government could be re-elected after the next general election! And if they are not, the next government will almost certainly be led by FF.

I’m afraid your bad humour caused of the people elected to govern this state will likely continue for several more years!

fine gael and labour will go the way of the greens in next general elections and i do realise what that prediction means but as i've been saying for long enough now, the problem with worldwide politics it's not who's in power, it's what the people allow politicians get up to and not be held accountable for.

Permabear · 28-03-2014 2:30pm

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martingriff · 28-03-2014 2:57pm

renegademaster wrote: »

fine gael and labour will go the way of the greens in next general elections and i do realise what that prediction means but as i've been saying for long enough now, the problem with worldwide politics it's not who's in power, it's what the people allow politicians get up to and not be held accountable for.

I will give you a 1000/1 that won't happen. Hell I will bet my morgage

And as mentioned way of the greens mean no TD's

renegademaster · 28-03-2014 3:02pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

i'm predicting that if gthe people sit on their ar$es for 2 years it seems like there's a great chance that fine gael and labour continue to make sucha mess of things that they may well go the way fo the greens,

we elected them to replace fianna fail and gave them a clear mandate yet as soon as fg/lab got in they just continued the corruption, give them 2 more years and nobody will vote for them, much like the greens imho!!

hatrickpatrick · 28-03-2014 3:09pm

renegademaster wrote: »

i'm predicting that if gthe people sit on their ar$es for 2 years it seems like there's a great chance that fine gael and labour continue to make sucha mess of things that they may well go the way fo the greens,

we elected them to replace fianna fail and gave them a clear mandate yet as soon as fg/lab got in they just continued the corruption, give them 2 more years and nobody will vote for them, much like the greens imho!!

This won't happen unless we can get a new party up and running between now and then. None of the current establishment has any interest whatsoever in accountability, so there are pretty much no alternatives... yet.

Permabear · 28-03-2014 3:43pm

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renegademaster · 28-03-2014 4:23pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

as i said before, the problem is not who's in government, it's what the irish people let those in power get away with. the establishment will never have any interest in accountability until the people have an interest in accountability, if 150,000 marched for 2 hours 2 saturdays in a row it would be amazing the amount of TDs whod' show up to work the following mon with this idea they had themselves over the weekend that it's time for real change. and, if that real change didn't come or all we got was empty soundbytes and spin well then we'd need to step up the pressure so they know we're serious. until any of this happens we will have more of what we've got up to now

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

don't underestimate the chances of them fcuking it all right up, sure cowen and fianna fail thought they'd get to the next elections not a bother but with a lot of help from themselves and massive amounts of public pressure they were out on their a$$es!!

Godge · 28-03-2014 4:32pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Agreed, the best summing up I have seen of the likely course of the next election.

Some nasty ads and remarks about letting FF ruin it all again will be part of the campaign too.

"It's the economy, stupid", will be the mantra.

There will be a reduced majority and the key question will be who will be the leader of the opposition?

twowheelsgood · 28-03-2014 11:46pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Or, once a minister is appointed, it becomes a national issue. So if we have some mechanism for the public to call for a minister's head, it should be a national mechanism, not a constituency one.

I know they have recall mechanisms elsewhere but I honestly do not see how this could work here (at least as our system is presently constituted)

If it were the case that a government making good decisions entirely coincided with one making popular ones then all would be well. But it is not. IMO, the power of recall that the people currently have with periodic general elections is already so potent as to steer any government unduly away from the pragmatic and towards the popular.

We are already weighing down our children and grandchildren with our debt, so you really see any prospect of a reversal of this if we in effect require our governments to be perpetually popular? And this is what a recall mechanism would amount to.

And in any case, your arguments for reform are premised on the notion that the general public have some sort of abhorrence of low standards in public office.

Even a cursory examination of our history will show that this is simply not true. It is little more than a parlour game we like to play where we profess to be outraged at whatever shenanigans our politicians got up to last. But when it comes to meaningful elections (i.e. general elections) , we never, ever punish them.

Jonny7 · 29-03-2014 1:42am

renegademaster wrote: »

as i said before, the problem is not who's in government, it's what the irish people let those in power get away with. the establishment will never have any interest in accountability until the people have an interest in accountability, if 150,000 marched for 2 hours 2 saturdays in a row it would be amazing the amount of TDs whod' show up to work the following mon with this idea they had themselves over the weekend that it's time for real change. and, if that real change didn't come or all we got was empty soundbytes and spin well then we'd need to step up the pressure so they know we're serious. until any of this happens we will have more of what we've got up to now

There are many decent politicians and officials who do a good job, else we wouldn't function as a country

We are also one of the least corrupt countries in the world

Yes, some are too lazy to protest, likewise some (actually I'd say many) just lazily tar all politicians with the same overly-cynical brush regardless of who's in power

Blaming the establishment is a national past-time that we cannot do without

renegademaster · 29-03-2014 12:08pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

We are already weighing down our children and grandchildren with our debt, so you really see any prospect of a reversal of this if we in effect require our governments to be perpetually popular? And this is what a recall mechanism would amount to.

Even a cursory examination of our history will show that this is simply not true. It is little more than a parlour game we like to play where we profess to be outraged at whatever shenanigans our politicians got up to last. But when it comes to meaningful elections (i.e. general elections) , we never, ever punish them.

you are dead right but never underestimate the people, we might have only got it together once in the last few years but when we did 150,000 forced fianna fail to call elections and many more of us sent them packing, if we had only kept up the momentum we might have avoided the illegal bonds being lumped on our childrens children which is what many of us were screaming at people online and on the streets at the time and most were telling the few protestors that they were off their fcuking heads for protesting, look at where the lack of protesting has gotten us

KwackerJack · 29-03-2014 12:11pm

The title should be 'Can we have Protests yet?'

29-03-2014 12:56pm

I think that people are realistic in their views. Judging by the small turnouts at previous protests, that were mainly hyjacked by fanatics, people do realise that we are slowly but surely getting back on track. The current Government sometimes make a hames of things and come accross as arrogant dictators, but they really are doing the best they can. I would like to see how the opposition would have done in the same timeframe. I would like to see FG and Labour returned to continue the job.

renegademaster · 29-03-2014 1:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that people are realistic in their views. Judging by the small turnouts at previous protests, that were mainly hyjacked by fanatics, people do realise that we are slowly but surely getting back on track. The current Government sometimes make a hames of things and come accross as arrogant dictators, but they really are doing the best they can. I would like to see how the opposition would have done in the same timeframe. I would like to see FG and Labour returned to continue the job.

protests that were hijacked were due to a lack of interest fromt he normal joe soaps that could have numbered the nutters easily if even a few hundred normal had showed up

29-03-2014 1:57pm

renegademaster wrote: »

protests that were hijacked were due to a lack of interest fromt he normal joe soaps that could have numbered the nutters easily if even a few hundred normal had showed up

My point is that the "normal joe soaps" believe that the current Government are doing things right. It may not be pleasant, but what or how else could things be done? They may have gone about things a bit differently, or with a bit more finesse, but the country is heading the right way and I would hate to hand it over to anyone that would derail it again.

Highflyer13 · 29-03-2014 2:27pm

The current government are doing an excellent job given the mess they took over. I am generally happy with them however I would like to see them firmly tackle quangos, charities and the general entitlement culture that exists. Less words and more action. I would be willing to protest against this just to push the government into taking action on these issues.

hatrickpatrick · 29-03-2014 8:47pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My point is that the "normal joe soaps" believe that the current Government are doing things right. It may not be pleasant, but what or how else could things be done?

Again, this isn't about the economy, it's about our culture of impunity and ongoing, constant scandals.
I'm finding it difficult to understand some posters' inability to see that the economy isn't the only factor in a nation's well being. Some of us just want to see honest people in charge and dishonest people being force out.

Iwasfrozen · 29-03-2014 9:00pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Again, this isn't about the economy, it's about our culture of impunity and ongoing, constant scandals.
I'm finding it difficult to understand some posters' inability to see that the economy isn't the only factor in a nation's well being. Some of us just want to see honest people in charge and dishonest people being force out.

I couldn't care less if the most dishonest people in the country were running the show as long as my quality of life was improving. Most people wouldn't.

marienbad · 29-03-2014 9:23pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Again, this isn't about the economy, it's about our culture of impunity and ongoing, constant scandals.
I'm finding it difficult to understand some posters' inability to see that the economy isn't the only factor in a nation's well being. Some of us just want to see honest people in charge and dishonest people being force out.

When your house is on fire you don't care about the ethics of the firemen. That is for a later day.

comongethappy · 29-03-2014 9:59pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Again, this isn't about the economy, it's about our culture of impunity and ongoing, constant scandals.
I'm finding it difficult to understand some posters' inability to see that the economy isn't the only factor in a nation's well being. Some of us just want to see honest people in charge and dishonest people being force out.

And for all your & Renegademaster's anger neither have offered us an alternative?

Will you not accept that many are OK with things, whether you like it or not.

Silentcorner · 29-03-2014 10:18pm

comongethappy wrote: »

And for all your & Renegademaster's anger neither have offered us an alternative?

Will you not accept that many are OK with things, whether you like it or not.

That is not what the polls are saying

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/support-for-government-parties-drop-in-new-poll-1.1743471

Just a reminder, FF suffered a catastrophic collapse at the last GE, Labour are facing the same obliteration...so it would seem that no, many are not ok with our government.

In a democracy, the people only have two weapons, protest or the ballot box. When you consider that support for the 3 main parties is literally tumbling it is perplexing how this is not manifesting itself on the streets. Personally, I believe that there are only a few organisations with the infrastructure needed to actually pull off a successful protest, I have witnessed two mass protests in Limerick since the crash, Farmers and School teachers.

Silentcorner · 29-03-2014 10:27pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I couldn't care less if the most dishonest people in the country were running the show as long as my quality of life was improving. Most people wouldn't.

You must have loved Bertie Ahern.

I'm sorry to be so blunt about this, but that attitude is what ultimately damages democracy.

The citizens of any Republic have a civic duty to elect honest public officials, full stop, failure in that duty has catastrophic consequences. We know that future citizens (as in citizens who are not even born yet) of this republic will literally have to pay for the mistakes we have made...that is what happens when a critical mass of citizens place the individual need over the greater national need.

bumper234 · 29-03-2014 10:32pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

You must have loved Bertie Ahern.

I'm sorry to be so blunt about this, but that attitude is what ultimately damages democracy.

The citizens of any Republic have a civic duty to elect honest public officials, full stop, failure in that duty has catastrophic consequences. We know that future citizens (as in citizens who are not even born yet) of this republic will literally have to pay for the mistakes we have made...that is what happens when a critical mass of citizens place the individual need over the greater national need.

How do we do this? How do you ENSURE that the politicians you vote in tomorrow will be honest next year?

Iwasfrozen · 29-03-2014 10:38pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

You must have loved Bertie Ahern.

I'm sorry to be so blunt about this, but that attitude is what ultimately damages democracy.

The citizens of any Republic have a civic duty to elect honest public officials, full stop, failure in that duty has catastrophic consequences. We know that future citizens (as in citizens who are not even born yet) of this republic will literally have to pay for the mistakes we have made...that is what happens when a critical mass of citizens place the individual need over the greater national need.

Not really, I was too young to really take interest in politics when he left.

Why do you capitalise republic? It's not a proper noun.

Your assumption is that electing dishonest leaders will necessarily lead to economic collapse this isn't true, a government is only made up of ordinary people and these people could be honest but incompetent.

Leaving aside that point your second assumption is that a totally honest government can be elected. Historically this has never been the case and if you accept a government is mearly a selection of individuals and you accept the widely accepted fact that no person is totally honest or incorruptible then the only conclusion one can draw is that no government can ever be totally honest or incorruptible.

Silentcorner · 29-03-2014 10:51pm

bumper234 wrote: »

How do we do this? How do you ENSURE that the politicians you vote in tomorrow will be honest next year?

Well you do not vote for them or their party at the next election, or protest, one or the other.

bumper234 · 29-03-2014 10:53pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well you do not vote for them or their party at the next election, or protest, one or the other.

Soooooooooo pretty much the way things are right now then?

Knob Longman · 29-03-2014 10:59pm

bumper234 wrote: »

Soooooooooo pretty much the way things are right now then?

Thee peasants won't be revolting anytime soon, M'lord..

Silentcorner · 29-03-2014 11:10pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not really, I was too young to really take interest in politics when he left.

Why do you capitalise republic? It's not a proper noun.

Your assumption is that electing dishonest leaders will necessarily lead to economic collapse this isn't true, a government is only made up of ordinary people and these people could be honest but incompetent.

Leaving aside that point your second assumption is that a totally honest government can be elected. Historically this has never been the case and if you accept a government is mearly a selection of individuals and you accept the widely accepted fact that no person is totally honest or incorruptible then the only conclusion one can draw is that no government can ever be totally honest or incorruptible.

I do not know what your point is here, I don't.

Voting for a politician who is known (or whose party is known) for incompetence or dishonesty is the same thing, it has the same consequences.

If history has taught us anything it is that power corrupts, it is human nature, therefore you legislate accordingly to protect the integrity of the state, if you continue to vote for a politician(or a political party) who consistently fails to do so, you are increasing the likelihood of living in a failed state.

As for my error of capitalising republic, my sincerest apologies for any confusion caused.

Silentcorner · 29-03-2014 11:21pm

bumper234 wrote: »

Soooooooooo pretty much the way things are right now then?

Correct.

I'm not sure you get my point, the ballot box is the most devastating weapon the electorate has, it already has obliterated FF, the polls are telling us that the current government parties are headed for the same treatment, and there has been no transfer of those voters back to FF, which indicates that the electorate is not one bit happy with how our state is being governed.

Ordinarily you would expect to see more tangible evidence of such, we are not, hence the point of the whole thread.

bumper234 · 29-03-2014 11:23pm

Knob Longman wrote: »

Thee peasants won't be revolting anytime soon, M'lord..

Let them eat cake!

Iwasfrozen · 29-03-2014 11:32pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

I do not know what your point is here, I don't.

Voting for a politician who is known (or whose party is known) for incompetence or dishonesty is the same thing, it has the same consequences.

If history has taught us anything it is that power corrupts, it is human nature, therefore you legislate accordingly to protect the integrity of the state, if you continue to vote for a politician(or a political party) who consistently fails to do so, you are increasing the likelihood of living in a failed state.

As for my error of capitalising republic, my sincerest apologies for any confusion caused.

You probably don't know what I mean because you isolated a paragraph that shouldn't be considered in isolation.

As for voting for a politician who is known for corruption then sure if you do that you deserve what you get but my point is that since a government is only a collection of individuals and every individual is corruptible then it's impossible to have an incorruptible government.

Can we have peaceful, national protests yet?

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