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Foreign-sounding names and discrimination MERGED

  • 07-05-2009 9:50am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I find this a strange one:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0507/1224246058800.html

    I'd have thought it was simply because there are likely to be less applicants with "foreign-sounding" names...
    JOB APPLICANTS with typical Irish names are twice as likely to be called for interview as those with minority names, according to a groundbreaking study by the ESRI.

    In the first experiment of its kind in Ireland, researchers found that candidates with non-Irish names were subjected to “strong discrimination” by employers across the three sectors of the labour market that were tested.

    There was no significant difference between the minority groups, with African, Asian and German names all twice as likely to be overlooked at the initial recruitment stage as Irish ones, even where applicants had equivalent qualifications.

    “The extent of discrimination observed in this experiment directly contradicts any notions of equality in terms of access to employment,” the report concluded.

    “Individuals with non-Irish backgrounds do not have equal access to the Irish labour market if they are being screened out at the first stage of recruitment.”

    Between March and October last year, researchers sent out pairs of matched CVs in response to 240 job adverts in administration, lower-level accountancy or in retail. The two fictitious applicants had equivalent qualifications, skills and expertise – all gained in Ireland – but while one candidate had an Irish name, the other was Asian, African or German.

    Both candidates were invited for interview on 23 occasions. In 55 cases, the Irish names were called for interview and the foreign-named applicants were rejected, while in just 15 cases, the minority names were called and the Irish-named were ignored.

    From this, the ESRI calculated that candidates with Irish names were over twice as likely to be invited to interview as those with non-Irish names. “It does prove that a very old ghost of discrimination still haunts us,” said Richard Fallon, acting chief executive of the Equality Authority, which commissioned the study.

    “You’re twice as likely to encounter this spectre with a non-Irish surname than with an identifiably Irish one – that’s even with Irish citizenship and with Irish qualifications.”

    The strength of the discrimination recorded in the Irish experiment is high relative to similar studies carried out in other countries, but not unprecedented.

    The authors noted that their findings were also consistent with previous research showing immigrants’ disadvantage in the labour market. But while previous studies found that black respondents stood out as faring worse than other groups, this experiment found no difference in discrimination rates between those with minority names.

    Interpreting the results, Dr Pete Lunn, an ESRI economist and co-author of the report, suggested the discrimination may be explained by “in-group favouritism”, which suggests “the positive desire to hire Irish workers, as opposed to a dislike of hiring foreign workers”.

    “We didn’t observe a different level of discrimination against the three minorities. If this was based on negative feelings towards the minorities, you might expect some variation in the extent of that negative feeling,” he explained.

    “Whereas if it’s predominantly based on a desire to favour one’s own . . . then you would expect to see equal discrimination against the other three minority groups.”

    The report suggested a number of measures to help reduce discrimination. These include the provision of more information for employers and workers on the equality laws and the introduction of random audits of hiring practices. If employers were required to keep all records of job applications for 12 months and to justify their hiring decisions, it would reinforce the pressure to adhere to good practice.

    This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times


«134

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭KTRIC


    This is going on for years and its the same in every country. Nothing new, slow news day etc...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27 raunch


    The luck of the oirish, i don't know why a name should make any difference, surely whoever has the best creds would be the more suitable applicant?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    You're one to talk, Dudess isn't an Irish name....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Smart Bug


    No one ever calls Smart Bug for interview :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 467 ✭✭Tupins


    I find this very sad but unfortunately not suprising.

    Ireland is a very racist country in my experience. :(


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭shenanigans1982


    Not surprising......I used to work with a chinese guy who couldn't speak a word of English but he was called Kevin....either he knew about this or was just lucky.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭Mr.Lizard


    By chance was the surname of the German candidate "Hitler"?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭KTRIC


    Mr.Lizard wrote: »
    By chance was the surname of the German candidate "Hitler"?

    Hitler was Austrian, different country. The name isn't even common, wasn't at the time and definitely isn't now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    KTRIC wrote: »
    This is going on for years and its the same in every country. Nothing new, slow news day etc...
    That's what I was thinking - it really doesn't look that "groundbreaking".
    Tupins wrote: »
    I find this very sad but unfortunately not suprising.

    Ireland is a very racist country in my experience. :(
    Well apparently they're "takin' all our jobs"...
    I'd disagree that Ireland is a very racist country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    Tupins wrote: »
    I find this very sad but unfortunately not suprising.

    Ireland is a very racist country in my experience. :(

    Home advantage?

    I believe this happens in every other country. Next week the newspapers will be saying all these jobs were taken by Indian lads. It's just saber rattling by organizations justifing their existence in a recession


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭Mr.Lizard


    KTRIC wrote: »
    Hitler was Austrian, different country. The name isn't even common, wasn't at the time and definitely isn't now.

    I didn't say it was A.Hitler. I said it was a Hitler.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27 raunch


    From what i hear, a lot of european countries have an issue with racisim, is ireland the only one free from that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    And foreigners are outnumbered too by Irish people - it really doesn't look that sinister. There have even been cries of "racism gone rife!" FFS...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Dudess wrote: »
    There have even been cries of "racism gone rife!" FFS...

    Well in all fairness, there wasn't any racism in Ireland until all the foreigners started coming here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,453 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    i have a polish surname (born and brought up in england moved here in 1997) when the it company i worked for closed in 2002 i must have put out 200 job applications only got a few interviews (fair enough most of the companies closed) but one guy when he rang me said "i didnt know whether i'd be able to speak english or not"
    thats the only very mild form of that ive ever experienced. (i actually wouldnt class that as racism but not reading my CV )

    But the other problem is most jobs seem to go through who you know route here as well so i guess if your an immigrant you just dont have the connections (got my current job that way)

    So i guess it happens, i think the uk that certainly seems to have disappeared in the last 20 years or so (defo happened before then)


  • Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭.50 (MOA)


    KTRIC wrote: »
    Hitler was Austrian, different country. The name isn't even common, wasn't at the time and definitely isn't now.


    in new york in 1938 there was 45 'Hitlers' in the phonebook, in 1945 there was none. they all had changed their name to something else.

    That is a different name, not Hermann something else married to Anna somethiong else, oh you know what i mean.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    The report proves nothing about "racism" because the vast majority of the applicants with foreign sounding names would indeed be foreign - and thus not English speaking natively. Which is probably not what the emplyers would want. That would not be true in the second generation, but a guy with a Polish name in 10-20 years with a CV showing he was born and bred here, and at the local CBS would probably not have an issue. If he did, that would be racism.

    The claim that Irish are racist towards Germans is not going to take off as a meme now is it? If we were wah-wah-wah-wahist the survey would point out the discrimination against the English, as well. But it doesn't.

    I doubt the statistics in any case. Are we really saying that the hospitality industry has discriniated against foreigners - that's not what seems obvious on the ground.

    That said I am sure that an O'Sullivan may have a better chance than a Schmidt in Kerry, as a Schmidt might have a better change in Frankfurt. So it goes. A lot of that is network.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Well in all fairness, there wasn't any racism in Ireland until all the foreigners started coming here.

    :)








    Don't mention the tinkers


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Don't mention the tinkers

    Not a race. Not discriminated against in law. Mollycuddled, in fact.

    But this is OT, so my last post on it.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    LOL at the Windsors, they had to do it too.

    Having an Irish sounding name is probably a good indication that you are a native speaker. For administration, lower-level accountancy or in retail this just might be an advantage since you would spend a lot of your time dealing with native Irish speakers. And we all know how much fun it is to deal on the telephone with certain people whose English isn't as fluent as could be.

    They didn't mention how long the qualifications went back. For a recent graduate it might only be the final year here. Would have to repeat with primary school / secondary school included and perhaps GAA or somesuch in hobbies too. There are signifigant number of second generation immigrants around the world who use their own language amongst family and friends and don't integrate with the local culture that they might not pick up on all the idioms and stuff.

    However, they did say there was no discrimination between the foreign sounding names with no significant difference between the minority groups, with African, Asian and German names. So you have to assume it's not racially based or based on the likelyhood of yellow pack workers.


    TBH it sounds like a quick screening process when you have too many CV's.

    TIP if you don't want to hire unlucky people simply throw half the received CV's in the bin before looking at them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Not surprising......I used to work with a chinese guy who couldn't speak a word of English but he was called Kevin....either he knew about this or was just lucky.

    I think a lot of Chinese people take Western names when they come over. Probably because they're sick of people not being able to pronounce their names.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Not surprising......I used to work with a chinese guy who couldn't speak a word of English but he was called Kevin....either he knew about this or was just lucky.
    There are some muck savages from the mountains of County Cork called Kevin and guess what ? :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭_Nuno_


    Dudess wrote: »
    I find this a strange one:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0507/1224246058800.html

    I'd have thought it was simply because there are likely to be less applicants with "foreign-sounding" names...


    Just curious, if the same amount of foreign applicants had half the replies that the exact same amount of applicants with Irish names got, how on earth would you reach that conclusion????


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭omyatari


    so, being foreign with a typical Irish name, would have been a reason why i got a job so fast?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,563 ✭✭✭connundrum


    omyatari wrote: »
    so, being foreign with a typical Irish name, would have been a reason why i got a job so fast?

    Correct.

    Edit - Cleary the typical Irish name got you in the door, thereafter your astual skills/experience got you the job.


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    Tupins wrote: »
    I find this very sad but unfortunately not suprising.

    Ireland is a very racist country in my experience. :(

    Happens in every single country in the world, what surprises me is that some people don't know or accept that’s the way it is. People look out for their own.

    As for Ireland being racist, got anything to back that up, maybe somebody didn't say hello to you today and of courses that’s because they are racist, please spare the drama.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I thought you thought they were taking all our jobs SWL...
    _Nuno_ wrote: »
    Just curious, if the same amount of foreign applicants get had half the replies that the exact same amount of applicants with Irish names got, how on earth would you reach that conclusion????
    Yeah, badly phrased of me. What I mean is, studies/statistics can be used to prove anything. And if this is happening in reality, I'd wager the fact more people with Irish-sounding names than foreign-sounding names is one of the reasons. Recently where I work, there was a position advertised and the vast majority of the applicants' names were Irish-sounding, thus greatly increasing the likelihood of a person with a non foreign-sounding name getting the job.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    asdasd wrote: »
    foreign - and thus not English speaking natively.
    Having an Irish sounding name is probably a good indication that you are a native speaker.

    Think ye mean if they have Irish surnames, they are likely to speak fluent English. We fail the native English test on the basis that we aren't English natives, and that we have a different dialect of English called Hiberno-English


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    asdasd wrote: »
    Not a race.


    What is a race? (in your opinion)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Recently where I work, there was a position advertised and the vast majority of the applicants names were Irish-sounding, thus greatly increasing the likelihood of a person with a non foreign-sounding name getting the job.

    Thats possibly true in real life. But the survey was equal in the number of CVs it sent off, between Irish and non-Irish. The report proves discrimination, but not racism.

    And discrimination is normal in job interviews. nobody is going to hire an unqualified person for a job, and if native English speaking is desired, then the applicant is unqalified.


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    Dudess wrote: »
    I thought you thought they were taking all our jobs SWL...

    Yet AGAIN you thought or in fact presumed wrong(seems like a Cork thing), but hey that not the first time, also as an employer I have employed plenty of non nationals how many have you employed? Oh liberal one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,034 ✭✭✭✭Basq


    Foreign sounding names me arse!

    My surname is my username.. it originates from Mayo for fecks sake... how metropolitan! :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭_Nuno_


    asdasd wrote: »

    And discrimination is normal in job interviews. nobody is going to hire an unqualified person for a job, and if native English speaking is desired, then the applicant is unqalified.


    And assuming there are no spelling mistakes are in the CV with the foreign name, how can they judge the English speaking skills from the CV, if they don't even allow him/her to go to an interview?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Is labelling all inhabitants of a whole country as racist, racist? :pac:

    Maybe employers are inclined to hire a person whose name can pronounce. Gealgoirs beware!!!!

    Funny theres no mention of Polish names on that article, they have mad names altogether.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,563 ✭✭✭connundrum


    basquille wrote: »
    it originates from Mayo for fecks sake... how metropolitan! :cool:

    Well then maybe you should go back to bleedin Mayo, wherever that is, and leave the jobs to the natives!

    Monsieur Basquille indeed!

    :P


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    how can they judge the English speaking skills from the CV, if they don't even allow him/her to go to an interview?

    Because in general a person not brought up with the language is not as good.

    And who knows, there may be other reasons. The employer may think that German's may not fit in with the slagging in an Irish workplace, a German employer may not like the Irish informality, a Chinese employer might not want anybody but Chinese people for his restaurant, a Dublin 4 manager may not automatically go for the northside address ( that is common), a Northsider may apply reverse discriminationon the Southsider who may not "fit in" ; a Dubliner may not want a culchie, a culchie employer may not want a Dub, an Irish hotel owner may only employ Polish not lazy Irish ( I know of one situation like that).

    And all of this is not even "networks" or "people you know". So it goes.

    I would ask why the race-baiters of the race industries are not examining why certain addresses have less chance of success than others, for the better jobs. Surely that is more common.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    SWL wrote: »
    Yet AGAIN you thought or in fact presumed wrong(seems like a Cork thing), but hey that not the first time
    "Not the first time"? How? And "presumed wrong"? Actually no, I was simply going by what you yourself post.
    also as an employer I have employed plenty of non nationals
    Never said you didn't.
    how many have you employed?
    None, because I don't and never have run a business. Guess that means I discriminate against foreign nationals... or... something.
    Oh liberal one.
    :eek: Oh noez, he called me "liberal"! :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,034 ✭✭✭✭Basq


    connundrum wrote: »
    Well then maybe you should go back to bleedin Mayo, wherever that is, and leave the jobs to the natives!

    Monsieur Basquille indeed!

    :P
    Mayo is a small region in the west of France actually! :pac:


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    IIMII wrote: »
    Think ye mean if they have Irish surnames, they are likely to speak fluent English. We fail the native English test on the basis that we aren't English natives, and that we have a different dialect of English called Hiberno-English
    :rolleyes:
    yes we use more homophones
    but we are closer to standard english than many in the UK , the main problem with interintelligibilty is that we talk faster than they do.

    did the survey contain any England names to see if the bias was due to country or language ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Lets get real here..... Do any of you think this is any different in other countries. Of course bias will be shown to natives. That's a fact of life. Natives are less likely to be footloose or just travelling, they are more likely a better fit socially within the office. That's just the way it is.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 677 ✭✭✭RaverRo808


    Is it just me?,but Im glad employers are more willing to recruit Irish natives over foreign nationals,the huge influx of immigrants,asylum seekers,foreign jobseekers etc was destined to be a diaster for Ireland,because now we are in extremely hard times,our own are the ones on the bread line and are desperate for work,and unfortunately so our the massive amount of foreign nationals who came here to exploit our so called 'Celtic Tiger',of course Irish people are going to want preference over those who have been here 2 or 3 years,for whatever reason,its only natural,wouldnt call it racism,yeah Im sure times are tough for immigrants,asylum seekers and the like,but they have an option,the boat back to their home country,which can in turn look after them,we have no room for deadwood here at the moment


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Yet AGAIN you thought or in fact presumed wrong(seems like a Cork thing)

    Anti-racist but very regionalist.
    did the survey contain any England names to see if the bias was due to country or language ?

    No. I mentioned that. Our "racism and xenophobia" extends to the Germans and not the English . Of course an Irish name can be English too. Maybe thats the reason. We are about 10% English surnames - sure mine is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    basquille wrote: »
    Mayo is a small region in the west of France actually! :pac:

    That's Le Mayo you philistine!

    Them Mayo Basquilles are trouble alright. Trouble I tells ya!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I have a foreign sounding name, but was born and lived here all my life. I always put down my nationality on my CV to indicate that I am from here. Its an easy way to get around the association that having a foreign sounding name means you can't speak fluent English.

    To be fair, I would be pissed if I wasn't considered for a job soley due to my name. I think I should have the same oppurtunities as the next guy and that my name shouldn't be the criteria on which I am judged, but rather whether I am qualified for the job or not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    There is a guy IRL by the name of Hilter Yew.
    If he can get work, anyone can.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,034 ✭✭✭✭Basq


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    That's Le Mayo you philistine!

    Them Mayo Basquilles are trouble alright. Trouble I tells ya!
    Nonsense.. we're harmless...















    .. of course, only if you considering rape and pillage harmless!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭Acacia


    asdasd wrote: »
    The report proves nothing about "racism" because the vast majority of the applicants with foreign sounding names would indeed be foreign - and thus not English speaking natively. Which is probably not what the emplyers would want.

    Aye, but not everybody who a foreign name can't speak English natively (though it's hard for employers to tell, I guess.) My bf has a foreign name, people always assume he can't speak English where he works and talk reeaaally slooowly and LOUDLY to him...cause , y'know, shouting slowly at someone in a foreign language will make them understand it. :D It's always amusing to see them look embarrassed when he responds to them in perfect English (often a lot better than some Irish people's ''wat's da starry, bud'' English.)

    Basically, I'm saying that you can be foreign and speak English as well as a native speaker, or indeed, be bi-lingual. I mean, if the CV or application is written in good English they must have some grasp of the language. :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    RaverRo808 wrote: »
    Is it just me?,but Im glad employers are more willing to recruit Irish natives over foreign nationals,the huge influx of immigrants,asylum seekers,foreign jobseekers etc was destined to be a diaster for Ireland,because now we are in extremely hard times,our own are the ones on the bread line and are desperate for work,and unfortunately so our the massive amount of foreign nationals who came here to exploit our so called 'Celtic Tiger',of course Irish people are going to want preference over those who have been here 2 or 3 years,for whatever reason,its only natural,wouldnt call it racism,yeah Im sure times are tough for immigrants,asylum seekers and the like,but they have an option,the boat back to their home country,which can in turn look after them,we have no room for deadwood here at the moment

    What about Irish citizens with foreign sound names? Doesn't seem right that they should get screwed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭Acacia


    RaverRo808 wrote: »
    Is it just me?,but Im glad employers are more willing to recruit Irish natives over foreign nationals,the huge influx of immigrants,asylum seekers,foreign jobseekers etc was destined to be a diaster for Ireland,because now we are in extremely hard times,our own are the ones on the bread line and are desperate for work,and unfortunately so our the massive amount of foreign nationals who came here to exploit our so called 'Celtic Tiger',of course Irish people are going to want preference over those who have been here 2 or 3 years,for whatever reason,its only natural,wouldnt call it racism,yeah Im sure times are tough for immigrants,asylum seekers and the like,but they have an option,the boat back to their home country,which can in turn look after them,we have no room for deadwood here at the moment

    Not everybody here with a foreign name has only been for a few years. Some may have been born here.

    So they can just hop on the boat now that times are tough? Charming.

    And by having no room for 'deadwood', I assume you're also taking into account the Irish dole-spongers who never worked a day in their lies even when the going was good?


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    Dudess wrote: »
    "Not the first time"? How? And "presumed wrong"? Actually no, I was simply going by what you yourself post.

    Never said you didn't.

    None, because I don't and never have run a business. Guess that means I discriminate against foreign nationals... or... something.

    :eek: Oh noez, he called me "liberal"! :(

    Comical, You then thank post #41, which is the same point I made, you're from Cork alright.


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