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Phoenix Park tunnel

  • 20-08-2013 11:22am
    #1
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭


    I found this interesting . Thought I'd share
    Opening a passenger rail line under the Phoenix Park in Dublin would not be an adequate alternative to the construction of Dart Underground, Iarnród Éireann has said.
    The National Transport Authority (NTA) recently announced plans to start passenger services to connect the city’s two main stations through the 136-year-old tunnel line between Connolly and Heuston. The journey would take about eight minutes.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/phoenix-park-tunnel-no-alternative-to-dart-underground-1.1499167


«1345678

Comments

  • #2
    Tripp
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭Tripp


    There was a thread on this a while ago
    Here


  • #3
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    Of course it is no substitute for a Dart Underground
    However the tunnel is there why not use it -
    It would help with connectivity - linking commuters with the Maynooth Line and the Kildare Line

    Adamstown to Drumcondra (For Croke Park Matches, or Colleges) or the IFSC
    Surely a service docklands/Connolly to Kildare would itself be a success

    You could have new stations at North Circular Rd/Phoneix Park - or Cara/Old cabra road


  • #4
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    Noboby would use it. Buses are cheaper, much more frequent, quicker, and take you to O'Connell St from Cabra/Drumcondra. The Luas from Heuston is preferable too.


  • #5
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    I think a rail link from Kidare to IFSC would be used.
    There seems to be a healthy traffic using Kildare line - Heuston - Luas- IFSC

    I think there would also be scope for special services for Matches and Concerts in Croke Park, Concerts in the Point Depot
    Would give better public transport options for people attending St. Pats Drumcondra, Mater Dei, DCU by bus - also if it links with the LUAS BXD line the new DIT in Grangegorman would be linked to it

    The think is to have connectivity and frequent services and harmonised ticketing


  • #6
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    True, I saw a man with a dog once get out in Docklands and head off to the IFSC.
    CIE don't think it's cost effective.
    But what do they know...........?
    Probably got their sums wrong trying to be clever with their fancy passenger polls.
    The best way is to just have a quick think and you'll know what will work.


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  • #7
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    cabrasnake wrote: »
    True, I saw a man with a dog once get out in Docklands and head off to the IFSC.
    CIE don't think it's cost effective.
    But what do they know...........?
    Probably got their sums wrong trying to be clever with their fancy passenger polls.
    The best way is to just have a quick think and you'll know what will work.

    Is this post supposed to be funny, sarcastic, pro-CIE or what? :confused:


  • #8
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No one in the NTA or IE said it was a suitable alternative to DART underground - it could certainly complement it.

    There is a big difference.


  • #9
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cabrasnake wrote: »
    Noboby would use it. Buses are cheaper, much more frequent, quicker, and take you to O'Connell St from Cabra/Drumcondra. The Luas from Heuston is preferable too.

    The train would be faster to Pearse and Grand Canal Dock where much of the CBD is located.

    LUAS does not serve these areas at all.


  • #10
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Its a very useful line. Unlike say the Western Rail Corridor, Irish Rail.

    Wonder if the route would serve Drumcondra, or even a new stop at Cabra or a Luas interchange. Opens up new possibilities.


  • #11
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It would serve Drumcondra as there is no connection to the other line at Glasnevin Junction.


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  • #12
    theSHU
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭theSHU


    They should build a new station "Connolly-North" on the Newcommen Cruve and terminate all suburban trains from Kildare at it. They can then build their planned intercity bus terminal on the car-park at Connolly Station which would result in a proper integrated transport hub.

    The Phoenix Park Line has huge potential:
    • the Zoo/Phoenix Park
    • Glasnevin Cemetary (one of Ireland's most visited attractions)
    • National Botanic Gardens
    • Croke Park
    • The Mater Hospital
    • Cabra


  • #13
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    Delusionary.
    Nobody from Kildare line/Heuston wants to go to those places.
    As CIE well know.
    Hence their indifference to it.


  • #14
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cabrasnake wrote: »
    Delusionary.
    Nobody from Kildare line/Heuston wants to go to those places.
    As CIE well know.
    Hence their indifference to it.

    Rubbish - they did not express indifference. They were asked if it was a substitute for DART underground, there is a difference.

    As for no one wanting to use it - my eyes must deceive me at the loadings that remain on the 145 every morning to the south city CBD. People travelling there would I would suggest prefer a direct train to Grand Canal Dock or Pearse.


  • #15
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    stations at the NCR /Park/Zoo, Cabra rd /Cabra/Luas, Phibsboro. it would compliment dart underground
    it would also
    new stops would give people a connection to the northern line, the sligo line, and the kildare cork line(and eventually the dart underground)


  • #16
    theSHU
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭theSHU


    cabrasnake wrote: »
    Delusionary.
    Nobody from Kildare line/Heuston wants to go to those places.
    As CIE well know.
    Hence their indifference to it.

    They can always stay on the train and get off at Connolly or if the signalling allows, off at Tara or Pearse etc. Or they can get off at Hueston and get the Luas/bus as normal..

    CIE were tunnelled visioned on Dart Underground and the grandeur it would give them. The reality is it will cost €4billion and no government will stump up that cash for the forseable future.


  • #17
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    Ergo. Blow 12 million so yer man and his dog can jaunt up to Pearse and visit the RSPCA.


  • #18
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Rubbish - they did not express indifference. They were asked if it was a substitute for DART underground, there is a difference.

    As for no one wanting to use it - my eyes must deceive me at the loadings that remain on the 145 every morning to the south city CBD. People travelling there would I would suggest prefer a direct train to Grand Canal Dock or Pearse.

    Don't fool yourself. The PP tunnell 'plan' is buried in cobwebs. Nobody on the 145 is going to the Docklands area. Except yer man and his dog. And the dog would rather get the Luas.


  • #19
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cabrasnake wrote: »
    Don't fool yourself. The PP tunnell 'plan' is buried in cobwebs. Nobody on the 145 is going to the Docklands area. Except yer man and his dog. And the dog would rather get the Luas.

    I was talking about the south city CBD which both Pearse and Grand Canal Dock stations are adjacent to.

    Neither is served by LUAS.


  • #20
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    There is another recent tread about the Phoneix Park tunnel and the recent article in the newspaper
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86116492&posted=1#post86116492

    I posted about how I think a circular route using the DART underground sligo line and park tunnel would connect all Urban Rail, and Luas lines in dublin adding value to them all


  • #21
    stoneill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Train to Connolly would be preferable than Hueston - sure, you are still only half way to town at Hueston.


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  • #22
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Haven't Iarnrod Éireann said no to the PPT idea since yesterday?


  • #23
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Oasis_Dublin wrote: »
    Haven't Iarnrod Éireann said no to the PPT idea since yesterday?

    No they didn't.

    They said in The Irish Times that it wasn't an alternative to DART Underground (which it isn't) and that they hadn't done any detailed planning yet.

    But some journalist at breakingnews.ie then turned that into IE saying "no".


  • #24
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    lxflyer wrote: »
    No they didn't.

    They said in The Irish Times that it wasn't an alternative to DART Underground (which it isn't) and that they hadn't done any detailed planning yet.

    But some journalist at breakingnews.ie then turned that into IE saying "no".

    Ah yes, it was the breaknews.ie story that I came across. Thanks for clearing that up.


  • #25
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    The problem I see with this is that it dumps more trains into Connolly which is already jammed up enough with commuter and Dart services.

    If this journey would take 8 minutes what is the comparable timeframe for getting out at Heuston, getting a Luas and then getting off at Connolly or Busaras. I would have though at peak time you could do this in around 10-15 minutes. Is it worth spending money when there already is a reasonable alternative.


  • #26
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Jayuu wrote: »
    The problem I see with this is that it dumps more trains into Connolly which is already jammed up enough with commuter and Dart services.

    If this journey would take 8 minutes what is the comparable timeframe for getting out at Heuston, getting a Luas and then getting off at Connolly or Busaras. I would have though at peak time you could do this in around 10-15 minutes. Is it worth spending money when there already is a reasonable alternative.

    The point is that this is after the city centre resignalling is completed when extra paths will be available.

    Frankly this is the NTA trying to make sure that they get a return on their investment, which is pretty small at €12m.

    It's not about just getting to Connolly though, it is about providing connectivity with the rest of the network and providing a direct link to the south city CBD at Pearse and Grand Canal Dock.


  • #27
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The point is that this is after the city centre resignalling is completed when extra paths will be available.

    Frankly this is the NTA trying to make sure that they get a return on their investment, which is pretty small at €12m.


    Yes and it is a very good idea. Even if it only saves 10 minutes from Connolly to Hueston, that would still be a big gain for a relatively paltry €12 million.

    Even better if it is developed further in future with a stop at Phoenix Park/Dublin Zoo in future, crazy that such a nice park and tourist attraction doesn't have a station of it's own.

    I see some politics in play here. Irish Rail are afraid to develop this tunnel as they think it will mean that it will be less likely that Dart Underground will go ahead. People would ask, why do we need to spend €2 Billion on DU when we already have a tunnel.

    Don't get me wrong, I completely see the need for DU, but many Joe Duffy type listeners wouldn't.


  • #28
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    More fanciful guesswork. The upgraded signalling will allow an extra 8 trains per hour over the Loop line bridge. Nearly all that will be taken up by some extra DARTs to fill current schedule gaps, but more importantly extra services on the Northern commuter line/Maynooth line/Rosslare line where there is big suppressed demand.
    Any magical mystery train tours of de nortside inner city from Heuston will be exiled to Docklands.
    You won't be going from Heuston to LA Grande canal dock.


  • #29
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Is there a huge demand on the Wexford line?! I was on it recently, and I could quite easily get on a seat of my choice at Dun Laoghaire. It's slower than a car and, although a lot cheaper than it was in the past (if you book ahead), I would be surprised if an extra train or two during the day is going to increase those using such a service by a very large amount.


  • #30
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    I also completely agree with the DART Underground (I may not agree with the precise route but either way it is a good idea)
    for a relatively small cost a kildare to connolly/docklands route can be instated
    the look at building stations at Phoenix Park/Dublin Zoo, Cabra, Phibsboro.

    With a bit of imagination a Phibsboro Station could be built which platfoms on both the line which runs north of croke park and the on aside the canal


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  • #31
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    Why would anybody get a train in Phibsboro when the bus is cheaper, quicker, more frequent and brings you to OCS?


  • #32
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    The obsessive attachment the inmates of boards have for the ppp is notable.
    There's a very good reason why IE have no interest in it. It's not worth it.


  • #33
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    This may come as a shock to you, but not everyone is going to OCS.


  • #34
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    This may come as a shock to you. Most of them are. 12 million Euros for a few stray bods to explore darkest Sth Dublin is Western Rail corridor economics.


  • #35
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    There is no point even trying to have a sensible discussion about this with you - time for the ignore button.


  • #36
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    There's no point in having a discussion with sombody in denial.
    The signalling upgrade is mainly for the DART and Northern line.
    There'd be few slots for Kildare line/Heuston trains.
    12 million Euros to send the occasional traveller to Sth Dublin doesn't make sense.
    The buses are cheaper, faster, more frequent and handier to get to the CC for anybody along the PPP line.


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  • #37
    theSHU
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭theSHU


    cabrasnake wrote: »
    There's no point in having a discussion with sombody in denial.
    The signalling upgrade is mainly for the DART and Northern line.
    There'd be few slots for Kildare line/Heuston trains.
    12 million Euros to send the occasional traveller to Sth Dublin doesn't make sense.
    The buses are cheaper, faster, more frequent and handier to get to the CC for anybody along the PPP line.

    Why would anyone get on at Drumcondra on the Maynooth line, or at Clontarf, or at Ballsbridge etc.


  • #38
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    Don't see your point.
    Clontarf and Ballsbridge are very busy on the DORT, especially to the centre. Clontarf gets a lot of traffic from East Point.
    But nobody gets the Maynooth line trains to the CC from Drumcondra.


  • #39
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    cabrasnake wrote: »
    But nobody gets the Maynooth line trains to the CC from Drumcondra.

    :rolleyes:

    Yes, they do so they can get on a DART straight away.


  • #40
    cabrasnake
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭cabrasnake


    They don't actually. Bus to Tara St is handier and every couple of minutes.
    That'd be 1 man and his dog anyway. Not really worth spending 12 million on.


  • #41
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    cabrasnake wrote: »
    They don't actually. Bus to Tara St is handier and every couple of minutes.
    That'd be 1 man and his dog anyway. Not really worth spending 12 million on.

    There's no integrated ticketing between DB and Irish Rail, meaning it's probably cheaper to travel by train in this instance.


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  • #42
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Surely there will be integrated tickets across the network by early 2016?


  • #43
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Oasis_Dublin wrote: »
    Surely there will be integrated tickets across the network by early 2016?

    :D
    LOL good one...owe you were being serious . Yeah I wouldn't hold my breath


  • #44
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Jayuu wrote: »
    The problem I see with this is that it dumps more trains into Connolly which is already jammed up enough with commuter and Dart services.

    If this journey would take 8 minutes what is the comparable timeframe for getting out at Heuston, getting a Luas and then getting off at Connolly or Busaras. I would have though at peak time you could do this in around 10-15 minutes. Is it worth spending money when there already is a reasonable alternative.

    You're talking of at least a 25min transfer time from getting off the train at Heuston and standing at the door of Connolly with a red luas transfer.

    The reason IE have no interest in it is twofold and nothing to do with demand. Connolly is currently highly congested at the moment with no capacity for extra trains. Secondly, I imagine IE are afraid that this option could be seen as a substitute rather than something to complement Dart Underground once it foes into operation. This substitute, while significantly cheaper would be less effective and wouldn't realise the connectivity goals that DU would achieve. The fear would be that this idea would be lost on the political masters who would us the excuse "sure the pheonix park tunnel does the job grand" and forgo the expensive tunnel on cost and business lobbying.

    I wouldn't be against the Pheonix Park tunnel as it would allow commuters from the western suburbs to use rail to access their workplaces in the IFSC and along the DART line. It should only be seen as an interim measure though.


  • #45
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    Reopening the Phoenix Part Tunnel should NOT be seen as in any way a rival to Dart Underground.
    It should be seen as an additional complimentary service to the existing Kildare line with a route connecting to the DART line and into the IFSC. (using the existing alignment of tracks).
    The idea of getting from inchicore to the IFSC in say 12-15 minutes is surely attractive
    Special services could be online for matches or concerts in Croke Park, Landsdowne, the Point and Phoenix Park
    The zoo gets about a million visitors each year now surely some of these and some additional visitors would avail of a rail link on the phoenix part tunnel line, if there was a station in the park or near the NCR?

    The idea I really like is looping the line eastwards after it crosses the river and underground into the DART underground so as you could have a circular line
    This would provide more demand for new stops at Phoenix Park, Cabra Road/Junction with LUAS BXD.

    Initially reopening/running services on the PP Tunnel would help build a culture of rail/public transport use - it would enhance the existing offerings by Irish Rail by adding connectivity between the lines.


  • #46
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,713 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    I gather it's all booked out, but the Bram Stoker Festival are running a train through the Phoenix Park tunnel this weekend, as part of the festival, the event is called "Underground Gothic".

    According to the piece on RTÉ news, they recently discovered this previous unknown tunnel under the park and have organised a train trip as part of the festival.

    Two trips are planned, at 17:00hrs and 18:20hrs on Sunday 26th October, Boarding at Connolly Station

    Interestingly (or not) the picture they use is a single track tunnel, I thought it was double track ?


  • #47
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The tunnel is double track - the photo is clearly of a different tunnel.


  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The photo seems to be just a cropped version of a stock shot from the below link so it has nothing to do with the tunnel itself: http://www.123rf.com/photo_4534453_light-at-the-entrance-of-train-tunnel.html
    According to the piece on RTÉ news, they recently discovered this previous unknown tunnel under the park and have organised a train trip as part of the festival.
    I hate when PR people make ridiculous claims like this. Previously unknown my arse!


  • #49
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,756 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The photo seems to be just a cropped version of a stock shot from the below link so it has nothing to do with the tunnel itself: http://www.123rf.com/photo_4534453_light-at-the-entrance-of-train-tunnel.html


    I hate when PR people make ridiculous claims like this. Previously unknown my arse!

    I think its aimed at children


  • #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I think its aimed at children
    Ah, that's fair enough. I didn't see the news report so I wasn't sure what kind of way the story was being reported. I thought the report was focusing on the tunnel itself and describing it as a new find rather than being focused on advertising an event aimed at children. Never mind so :)


  • #51
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,530 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Pretty successful event though by the looks of it. Tickets have long been sold out.


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